385 réponses à ce sujet

[TobiTobsen]

Alistair/Anora gave them sanctuary, not Teagan. Teagan has no obligation to let them into the castle.

 

That's a rather interesting interpretation of feudal contracts and the chain of command you've got there.

[General TSAR]

Fiona was a ******, just like the Templars who consumed Red Lyrium without question. No amount of fanboying will change that. 

[Xilizhra]

That's a rather interesting interpretation of feudal contracts and the chain of command you've got there.

Had the contract been that the mages would be protected from the templars under all circumstances, the Fereldan army already would have been marching into the area to deal with the templars before they struck. Instead, they completely ignored the situation.

[Iakus]

Yes. Specifically, in Redcliffe. Except that there are far fewer mages than templars, and the rogue mages had to hire other random bandits who couldn't really stand up to the templars themselves (one letter mentions this).

 

Fewer mages?  Citation needed.

 

 

 

Lambert was cracking down on the White Spire with or without Fiona. As for indentured servitude, the fact that it isn't slavery is something of an indication.

 

Fiona gave him every excuse to do so as well.  And yeah, indentured servitude is slavery.  Just one that's done with a guarantee of eventually being freed.

 

 

 

Her position here is not stronger.

 

 

She's got a heck of a lot more mages at her back, as well as the word of a monarch giving them protection.  The Templars have no legal standing once they left the Chantry.  Thus could be treated as the brigands they were acting like.

 

 

 

Because summoning spirits would not have gotten them thrown out of Redcliffe?

 

Yes, because cutting a deal with a foreign power and letting them occupy the city was so much better for everyone concerned.  At any rate, even a wisp would have been enough to cure Tranquility

 

 

 

Something that wouldn't have happened had the Venatori not planned on attacking southern Thedas, and since Fiona didn't even know the Venatori existed, there'd be no reason to believe that.
 

They're a force from a hostile government coming along to offer a Faustian deal.  If Fiona had any spine at all she'd have declared thier deal void as soon as ALexius started "altering the arrangement" if not before. 

[Xilizhra]

Fewer mages?  Citation needed.

It's in the game. Usually, there are two or three sellswords for every mage.

 

 

Fiona gave him every excuse to do so as well.  And yeah, indentured servitude is slavery.  Just one that's done with a guarantee of eventually being freed.

He didn't need one, beyond the Tranquility cure. And I seriously doubt that Fiona would have gone through with the deal if they'd never be much better than slaves.

 

 

She's got a heck of a lot more mages at her back, as well as the word of a monarch giving them protection.  The Templars have no legal standing once they left the Chantry.  Thus could be treated as the brigands they were acting like.

With many more monarchs bearing down. And like I said before, if the promise of protection was that, the Fereldan army would already have been moving into the area to deal with the templars. It was a promise of residence, not protection.

 

 

Yes, because cutting a deal with a foreign power and letting them occupy the city was so much better for everyone concerned.  At any rate, even a wisp would have been enough to cure Tranquility

It helped them not be slaughtered by the templars, presumably. And citation needed on the second part.

 

 

They're a force from a hostile government coming along to offer a Faustian deal.  If Fiona had any spine at all she'd have declared thier deal void as soon as ALexius started "altering the arrangement" if not before. 

Tevinter is somewhat unfriendly, but not actually hostile to Ferelden. Maybe Orlais, but Ferelden isn't friends with Orlais either, so there you have it. And when Alexius did start that, his Venatori were already ensconced in the castle (not to mention that Alexius didn't say anything about the deal being altered until the confrontation inside the castle).

[Iakus]

It's in the game. Usually, there are two or three sellswords for every mage.

 

We're not talking about sellswords, though.  We're talking about Templars

 

 

 

He didn't need one, beyond the Tranquility cure. And I seriously doubt that Fiona would have gone through with the deal if they'd never be much better than slaves.

Yes, he did.  As long as Fiona stuck to the program agenda, Lambert would have had no justification in his actions.  And it was made quite clear just from her interactions with Alexius, that she was no better than a slave to him.

 

 

 

With many more monarchs bearing down. And like I said before, if the promise of protection was that, the Fereldan army would already have been moving into the area to deal with the templars. It was a promise of residence, not protection.

 

Which monarchs would those be?  They were all probably glad it wasn't going down in their own backyards.  Everyone was pretty much staying put.

 

And how do you know Ferelden wasn't going to protect the mages?  You think they'd like Redcliffe to be invaded by an army of brigands?

 

 

 

It helped them not be slaughtered by the templars, presumably. And citation needed on the second part.
 

Did it?  Did it really?  I mean, the Templars did pull back to Val Royeaux, then to Therinfal.  Seems the mages had quite a bit of breathing room.

 

And while I may be exaggerating about "even a wisp" (emphasis on may be) Asunder makes it clear that any spirit can cure Tranquility by touching the person's mind.

 

 

Tevinter is somewhat unfriendly, but not actually hostile to Ferelden. Maybe Orlais, but Ferelden isn't friends with Orlais either, so there you have it. And when Alexius did start that, his Venatori were already ensconced in the castle (not to mention that Alexius didn't say anything about the deal being altered until the confrontation inside the castle).

No nation is Thedas is more hated than Tevinter, save the Qunari.  And Alexius was altering the deal right there at the inn, before the meeting in the castle, and Fiona puts up no more than a token protest.

[Xilizhra]

We're not talking about sellswords, though.  We're talking about Templars

Every templar-sided enemy is a templar, while most of the mage-sided enemies are actually sellswords.

 

 

Yes, he did.  As long as Fiona stuck to the program agenda, Lambert would have had no justification in his actions.  And it was made quite clear just from her interactions with Alexius, that she was no better than a slave to him.

Alexius deceived everyone before making any deals, and Lambert was already well outside of Justinia's control; additionally, it was Adrian's action that Lambert used to justify his initial crackdown, not Fiona's.

 

 

Which monarchs would those be?  They were all probably glad it wasn't going down in their own backyards.  Everyone was pretty much staying put.

 

And how do you know Ferelden wasn't going to protect the mages?  You think they'd like Redcliffe to be invaded by an army of brigands?

I misspoke, I meant that many more templars were bearing down.

 

And I have no idea about Ferelden's intentions, except that they weren't protecting the mages in any way.

 

 

Did it?  Did it really?  I mean, the Templars did pull back to Val Royeaux, then to Therinfal.  Seems the mages had quite a bit of breathing room.

 

And while I may be exaggerating about "even a wisp" (emphasis on may be) Asunder makes it clear that any spirit can cure Tranquility by touching the person's mind.

The templars didn't retreat to Val Royeaux until after the deal was struck, thanks to Alexius' time travel, and the Venatori were already ensconced in Redcliffe. And Asunder mentions that finding a spirit that they could force into Pharamond's mind was remarkably difficult (or possibly it's a codex entry in DAI that talks about Pharamond).

 

 

No nation is Thedas is more hated than Tevinter, save the Qunari.  And Alexius was altering the deal right there at the inn, before the meeting in the castle, and Fiona puts up no more than a token protest.

All right, I misremembered the timing of one conversation, but by that point, Fiona didn't really have enough power to dislodge Alexius. As shown by the ending of In Hushed Whispers, going back on the deal wouldn't be good enough to avoid being exiled from Ferelden, so she had no real choice.

[Vit246]

delete.

[Iakus]

Every templar-sided enemy is a templar, while most of the mage-sided enemies are actually sellswords.

 

Except for the mages

 

 

 

Alexius deceived everyone before making any deals, and Lambert was already well outside of Justinia's control; additionally, it was Adrian's action that Lambert used to justify his initial crackdown, not Fiona's.

 

Lambert was still following Justinia's orders at the time.  Adrien's actions led him to try and arrest Rhys, which forced Wynne to back Fiona.  Hilarity ensued.

 

 

 

I misspoke, I meant that many more templars were bearing down.
And I have no idea about Ferelden's intentions, except that they weren't protecting the mages in any way.

 

Except, you know, providing them with a home, protected by the big castle, and all.  Otherwise the Templars could have just stormed the village.

 

 

 

The templars didn't retreat to Val Royeaux until after the deal was struck, thanks to Alexius' time travel, and the Venatori were already ensconced in Redcliffe. And Asunder mentions that finding a spirit that they could force into Pharamond's mind was remarkably difficult (or possibly it's a codex entry in DAI that talks about Pharamond).
 

And how did they know a deal was struck?  Heck, how would Tevinters even know how to fight a Templar effectively?  And the difficulty in curing Tranquility isn't in summoning a spirit, but convincing a spirit to touch a Tranquil mind.  They do not see the Tranquil as living beings after all.  That said, it is still possible.  There were possessed Tranquil in the Broken Circle questline in DAO.

 

 

All right, I misremembered the timing of one conversation, but by that point, Fiona didn't really have enough power to dislodge Alexius. As shown by the ending of In Hushed Whispers, going back on the deal wouldn't be good enough to avoid being exiled from Ferelden, so she had no real choice.

Pretty sure She was exiled because she handed Redcliffe village over to the Vints, to the point where the arl himself got kicked out.

[Sifr]

And how did they know a deal was struck?  Heck, how would Tevinters even know how to fight a Templar effectively?

 

The Templars didn't know of the deal, they were apparently preparing to strike when they were recalled to Val Royeaux.

 

Alexius seems to have gone back in time after Fiona reached out to us for an alliance in Val Royeaux (and after the Templars were recalled), suggesting that in the original version of events, he either hadn't offered or managed to secure an alliance with the Rebellion by that point.

 

However, by arriving two days after the Conclave explosion and operating on foreknowledge of exactly what was going to happen and when, Alexius was able to manipulate the extremely desperate rebels at that point into striking a deal. The rebels at that point in time had no Inquisition to hope to ally with (it was still only gleam in the milkman's eye) and the Templars were knocking at the door (having not had their leashes pulled back yet).

[thats1evildude]

Redcliffe was a nigh-impenetrable stronghold. The mages could have held out indefinitely. But they couldn't win the war, which is why Fiona is willing to make a deal with Tevinter slavers. She cared more about beating the damn Templars than anything else, which is also why she willingly serves Corypheus during "In Your Heart Shall Burn."

[Xilizhra]

Except for the mages

Yes, and?

 

 

Lambert was still following Justinia's orders at the time.  Adrien's actions led him to try and arrest Rhys, which forced Wynne to back Fiona.  Hilarity ensued.

Justinia ordered Lambert to arrest everyone for one murder?

 

 

Except, you know, providing them with a home, protected by the big castle, and all.  Otherwise the Templars could have just stormed the village.

Which is precisely what they were going to do until they were recalled. Please, show me a single indication that the mages were ever allowed into the castle.

 

 

And how did they know a deal was struck?  Heck, how would Tevinters even know how to fight a Templar effectively?  And the difficulty in curing Tranquility isn't in summoning a spirit, but convincing a spirit to touch a Tranquil mind.  They do not see the Tranquil as living beings after all.  That said, it is still possible.  There were possessed Tranquil in the Broken Circle questline in DAO.

Only Envy had to know about the deal, and then it'd be because it would be notified once Alexius arrived; Corypheus is coordinating everything. I also don't believe you're correct about possessed Tranquil.

 

 

Pretty sure She was exiled because she handed Redcliffe village over to the Vints, to the point where the arl himself got kicked out.

Which had already happened by the time of the inn scene, so turning on Alexius wouldn't have helped.

[introverted_assassin]

I have no qualms with Fiona. I didn't like the way her death happens if you take the Champions of the Just route. Hell for a while, I didn't even realize we were fighting her. It's like "oh. there's Fiona. Dead. So who wants chicken?". Like come on...whatever one may feel about her actions, that was cold work. She IS a significant character within DA so to just murk her like that seemed very unworthy.

[Sifr]

I have no qualms with Fiona. I didn't like the way her death happens if you take the Champions of the Just route. Hell for a while, I didn't even realize we were fighting her. It's like "oh. there's Fiona. Dead. So who wants chicken?". Like come on...whatever one may feel about her actions, that was cold work. She IS a significant character within DA so to just murk her like that seemed very unworthy.

 

Yeah, at least Denam in both the Mage or Templar side was consistently written as a villain.

 

Fiona in the Templar route has no explanation whatsoever for why she's part of the Venatori and part of the assault on Haven, it just sort of happens without any preamble. The one on the mage route hated when Alexius was doing and the version of her in the Dark Future seems to have not been in the Venatori and instead spent the last year locked up and turning into a lyrium growbag... so her suddenly deciding to drink the kool-aid in the Templar path is just bizarre?

[introverted_assassin]

Yeah, at least Denam in both the Mage or Templar side was consistently written as a villain.

Fiona in the Templar route has no explanation whatsoever for why she's part of the Venatori and part of the assault on Haven, it just sort of happens without any preamble. The one on the mage route hated when Alexius was doing and the version of her in the Dark Future seems to have not been in the Venatori and instead spent the last year locked up and turning into a lyrium growbag... so her suddenly drinking the kool-aid in the Templar path is just bizarre?

bolded the part that forever has me scratching my head. they really played her. you would wonder how she had survived up until that attack with how slack-jawed(hi Dorian) she is portrayed. Looking at the tv like..."naw...naw this isn't the Fiona I read about". She was a bit of a hot head....that I will concede but I don't really see even that aspect in game...just what happened that lead to the game's events but that is still debatable to me.

[Dabrikishaw]

From what I've seen, Fiona is mainly hated for the life she lived in the Expanded Universe

LOL

 

Tevinter slave -> Mage -> Grey Warden -> Maric's lover ->  cured of the GW taint -> First Enchanter -> Alistair's mom

This post for example is a good reason as any to dislike most characters in Dragon Age.

 

the remainder of the dislike does come from her handling of the mages during the war.

[introverted_assassin]

That post is also the reason why they shouldn't have treated her death as blahzay splee. If you're gonna give her THAT much stuff as far as character building or whatever, there should have been more said or acknowledged when she got murked. 

[Steelcan]

You can maybe make the argument she gets more hate than she deserves for her actions in Inquisition, but compile the laundry list of other issues with her and it just adds up to be an exceedingly annoying character.

[Cyrus Amell]

I would proposition that Fiona never agreed to join Tevinter in the first place. We met her, not an envy demon in disguise but actually her, at Val Royeaux and she welcomed our aid. But when we get to Redcliffe she acts strangely and unlike herself. Add in the time magic and the only possible explanation arises as for why she would submit to Tevinter: Alexius reworked time itself so that Fiona sided with him.  

 

It is as if the man ripped out a page in a book and wrote in his own take. Those affected by this time travel travesty would try to make sense with it and agree with the now present reality. That is what Dorian was hinting at when he postulated how Alexius grabbed the mages out from under us. 

 

Fiona would never have agreed to any of this but Alexius rewrote time and perhaps even reality so that the events occurred as they did. 

[Steelcan]

I would proposition that Fiona never agreed to join Tevinter in the first place. We met her, not an envy demon in disguise but actually her, at Val Royeaux and she welcomed our aid. But when we get to Redcliffe she acts strangely and unlike herself. Add in the time magic and the only possible explanation arises as for why she would submit to Tevinter: Alexius reworked time itself so that Fiona sided with him.  

 

It is as if the man ripped out a page in a book and wrote in his own take. Those affected by this time travel travesty would try to make sense with it and agree with the now present reality. That is what Dorian was hinting at when he postulated how Alexius grabbed the mages out from under us. 

 

Fiona would never have agreed to any of this but Alexius rewrote time and perhaps even reality so that the events occurred as they did. 

none of that is in doubt

 

Alexius used time magic to force the mages to submit to him

[riverbanks]

Does no one realize that Fiona legitimately had incredibly few options there?

 

Options Fiona had:

• not forcing a war the vast majority of the mages did not want, or was even ready for, just because she wanted it right now.
• not using Adrian to emotionally manipulate Rhys into betraying the Aequitarians, leading the previously mentioned vast majority of the mages to either get caught up in a war they did not want, offer themselves to the Grey Wardens to avoid that war, go into hiding, etc.
• not "washing her hands" off the lunatics in the Hinterlands to go hole up in Redcliffe. One of her main arguments is that mages should be able to police themselves, but that's what she does when she's "policing" her mages? Some of the rebels disagree with her, she shrugs and goes away, leaving them to attack villagers, pillage farms, burn half the Hinterlands, etc. As Vale puts it, the ~good mages~ can wash their hands off the ~bad~ ones - the common folk who gets caught in the middle can't.
• not selling the mages into slavery.
• again, because you keep making excuses for her for this: not selling the mages into slavery.
• whatever excuse you wanna make for her, really: not selling the mages into slavery.
• here's a great idea for people who are fighting for freedom: let's sell them into slavery!
• children included, because the shady Tevinter man buying mages as slaves will never hurt the children, amirite.
• no.
• not allowing hundreds of Tranquil under her leadership, and therefore protection, to be murdered in cold blood to make cute little skull binoculars.
• seriously, even Solas thinks the murder of hundreds of Tranquil is a "tragic waste," and he's the guy who thinks everyone in the world feels like a Tranquil to his higher elvhen sensibilities.
• at least
• at the very very least
• take some fcking responsibility for her mistakes.
• at least be an adult and, once it's all over, admit she was wrong, admit she cocked up, take ownership of her actions and responsibility for her mistakes, for once in her life.
• but no, as usual, everything was someone else's fault. Everything Fiona ever does is someone else's fault. It was the Wardens. It was Maric. It was Lambert. It was the Templars. It was Alexius. It was time magic. Blood magic? Magic magic! Some guy told some story about some Templar army and he sounded really convincing about it so it was his fault. She did nothing wrong. Fiona never does anything wrong. She would do it all over again, because she is special and pure and innocent and has never made a mistake in her life. Everything that has gone wrong in her life was, somehow, someone else's fault.
• I mean it, even with everything she cocked up in this mage war storyline, if Fiona could only be a grown up and admit, for once in her life, that she made some mistakes and should have known/tried/done better, I could at least respect her for owning up to her failures.
• Loghain could admit he fcked up. Meredith could admit she fcked up. Anders, in all his pride and stubborness, could admit he fkced up.
• but Fiona can't, because Fiona Is Never Wrong.

 

Trust me, my hatred is absolutely justified.

[Xilizhra]

not forcing a war the vast majority of the mages did not want, or was even ready for, just because she wanted it right now.

A majority voted for independence, which even Vivienne admits.

 

not using Adrian to emotionally manipulate Rhys into betraying the Aequitarians, leading the previously mentioned vast majority of the mages to either get caught up in a war they did not want, offer themselves to the Grey Wardens to avoid that war, go into hiding, etc.

Citation needed on Adrian's plot being of Fiona's making.

 

not "washing her hands" off the lunatics in the Hinterlands to go hole up in Redcliffe. One of her main arguments is that mages should be able to police themselves, but that's what she does when she's "policing" her mages? Some of the rebels disagree with her, she shrugs and goes away, leaving them to attack villagers, pillage farms, burn half the Hinterlands, etc. As Vale puts it, the ~good mages~ can wash their hands off the ~bad~ ones - the common folk who gets caught in the middle can't.

Vale doesn't actually say that, and by that point, Fiona probably couldn't leave Redcliffe based on the agreement with Alexius.

 

not selling the mages into slavery.

At the time, the choice was that or death/Tranquility.

 

not allowing hundreds of Tranquil under her leadership, and therefore protection, to be murdered in cold blood to make cute little skull binoculars.

There's no indication she was involved.

 

at least be an adult and, once it's all over, admit she was wrong, admit she cocked up, take ownership of her actions and responsibility for her mistakes, for once in her life.

She never did anything wrong with effects that weren't being greatly, and primarily, exacerbated by others.

 

Trust me, my hatred is absolutely justified.

It's not.

[Steelcan]

the barest minimum of a majority voted for independence, and it was under extreme duress

[riverbanks]

<snip>

 

She never did anything wrong with effects that weren't being greatly, and primarily, exacerbated by others.

 

See, you just keep making excuses upon excuses for her, diverting into generic non-sequiturs, and absolving a character who is as faillable as any other in the series -and should be held accountable for her actions, as everyone else is- of any responsibility for her mistakes, further proving my point that Nothing Is Her Fault and Fiona Is Never Wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Xilizhra]

See, you just keep making excuses upon excuses for her, diverting into generic non-sequiturs, and absolving a character who is as faillable as any other in the series -and should be held accountable for her actions, as everyone else is- of any responsibility for her mistakes, further proving my point that Nothing Is Her Fault and Fiona Is Never Wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

She is held accountable, she gets exiled from Ferelden.