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Fiona gets a bit too much unjustified hatred


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#76
riverbanks

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She is held accountable, she gets exiled from Ferelden.

 

The mage rebellion gets exiled from Ferelden, while landing on a nice soft cushion in the Inquisition. Fiona then immediately enters "I did nothing wrong and I would do it all over again" mode, and you don't even get a dialogue option to ask her to take responsibility, even if you conscripted the mages. If you free them, then, she gets a complete pass for everything she did wrong, and even a pat in the back for a job well done. Zero accountability.

 

Of course, that's the ideal scenario for you, who truly believes Fiona is Innocent and Blameless and a Hero for the cause, but don't be ridiculous calling a turn out where Fiona gets the final word and her final word is that She Did Nothing Wrong and It Was All Someone Else's Fault as being "held accountable," come on.


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#77
Nixou

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There was a third option. Going on the run. Mages don't have to march around with staffs and robes proclaiming themselves to be mages. 

 

 

People tend to forget two things:

  • Most mages are used to a sedentary lifestyle and not trained fighters. Wynne could travel from Adamant to Val-Royaux back to Adamant then back to Val-Royaux while casually slaughtering dozens of darkspawns and demons along the way, but she was the exception rather than the norm: most of the mages in Redclife were exhausted runaways who would have been slaughtered with ease by trained killers.
  • Alexius was prior to his wife's death one of the most liberal members of the Magisterium: chances are that Fiona knew him at least by reputation and thought that he was offering to help in good faith: she was genuinely shocked when he announced to the Herald his intention of turning the Southern mages into indenture servants and chances are that Alexius would never have tried to screw Fiona over if he had been his own agent instead of a desperate man looking for any chance to save his son's life.

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#78
ShadowLordXII

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The hate against Fiona's is an overreaction.

 

But the criticism and detest for Fiona's actions are valid and justified. Rebelling against the Chantry only to sell yourself to Tevinter is a bad idea no matter the perspective and the cons outweighed the ever decreasing pros.

 

The fact that Fiona doesn't even own up to her mistake and defends it despite clearly being wrong just damns her even further.


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#79
Shienis

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Options Fiona had:

 

<list of options>

 

Trust me, my hatred is absolutely justified.

 

While I agree with your points, I am really surprised that you made three such intense posts instead of "it was a valid choice for Fiona, stop harassing her".  :mellow:

 

 

She never did anything wrong with effects that weren't being greatly, and primarily, exacerbated by others.

 

"Hey, look! Someone messed up! That means I can do anything I want and then just place blame on that person, because he/she/it messed up first!"

 

 

The hate against Fiona's is an overreaction.

 

But the criticism and detest for Fiona's actions are valid and justified. 

 

And then you have people who see criticism and immediately start shouting hatred. It is not easy to hold a reasonable discussion when meanings of words change with every post. :( 


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#80
Donk

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#81
Sylvianus

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Ah Fiona, Fiona, Fiona. I already had bad feelings about her, the very first time I read about her, where she was a young elf and warden in the calling. From the beginning I couldn't already stand that female character with her dirty behavior and dirty reactions toward Maric, that was soooo childish. I knew I wasn't going to like her, but never suspected how it would get increasingly worse, how she would become so despicable in my eyes. 

 

Fiona is such a big deal for me, that I can't stand having her around in Skyhold. If you could be at least able to remove her from her leadership, I would have been more lenient, but no, you can't do anything like that if you choose the mage path whether you conscript the mages or set them free. And with this unbearable arrogance that she always has when she opens her mouth, Fiona tells you that she has no regrets, she would do the same thing again blah blah blah. What the hell Fiona, when will you grow up ? And she is abolutely useless as well, enjoying her days in the library, not like Ser Barris who actually fights for the inquisition.

 

Part of the reason why I play more the templar path is that Fiona at least suffers the consequences of one of her crappy decisions without the inquisition to save her bloody ass, being a slave again, this time for Corypheus. Oh the irony is delectable I admit, as much as seeing her little body on the ground once dead.  :lol:

 

She is going to attack you at one point, And I'm like " come at me, take that Fiona, " Very happy in the end, no regrets. Not even my pro-mage inquisitor can stand her because of how she leads so badly the mages. 


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#82
riverbanks

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While I agree with your points, I am really surprised that you made three such intense posts instead of "it was a valid choice for Fiona, stop harassing her".  :mellow:

 

Cute. :P

 

Valid choices for the player =/= characters doing stupid things and refusing to acknowledge their faults.

 

It's like this:

 

- if the player was in charge of the mage rebellion and had the option to sell them into slavery, I'd defend that option to the death as a valid player choice. A poor choice, with terrible consequences; but as long as the player is free to make it, and self-aware enough to admit it may have been a mistake when faced with the consequences, still a valid one (see: the Iron Bull outcome in Trespasser). Fiona is an NPC, she's not acting on the rules of roleplaying (eg. there are no rules) - she answers to the writing, and the writing coddles her instead of holding her choices accountable. If the player can be punished for their choices, the NPCs should not get free passes.

 

- Cullen's lyrium subplot is a choice made by the player, thus it is a roleplaying choice, and I will defend to the death your right to make whatever choice you want here. I may disagree with your choice on a personal level, I may not want to make such a choice on my own game; but as long as a choice is in the game for you to make it, I will defend it as a valid one. This is not the only difficult choice to defend in the series, but to stay on the same example: if Cullen had made the decision to go back on lyrium on his own, as an NPC, with no input from the the player, and say, betrayed the Inquisition, joined the Red Templars etc, I would absolutely hold him, the character, accountable for it (not the player - the player did nothing here). And if Cullen got his ass saved by the Inquisition and said "I did nothing wrong, it was, uhm, I don't know, Samson's fault, he's really convincing" instead of acknowledging his role in it, I would say the writing was coddling him as well.

 

(Why do I like Samson as a hot mess who cocks up and ruins everything? Because when you catch him, he says "yeah I screwed up, and what of it." He shows his motives, but never blames someone else for his mistakes. Catch me when Fiona the Innocent and Blameless starts owning up to hers.)

 

So yes, I know my usual spiel is "stop harrassing players for making maybe awful but still valid choices," but Fiona is not a player and I don't have to defend her stupidity. She had the agency to make mistakes, great - now take responsibility and own up to them. You wanna make poor choices on your own game? Shine on, you crazy diamond. You're not an NPC, so you don't answer to writing that affects every player - you answer to the fates of game consequences, and it's not anyone's place to tell you how to play your own game (as it is the writers' place to make their characters, too, accountable for bad decisions, not just the player). Clearer?


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#83
Avejajed

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Does no one realize that Fiona legitimately had incredibly few options there? Remember all the templars pillaging the countryside in the Hinterlands? Those are deserters from the templar army that was in the Hinterlands and preparing to attack Redcliffe before Lucius/Envy recalled them to Val Royeaux. There's a very high chance that the mage rebellion would have been completely screwed if the templars hadn't been part of a larger conspiracy; sure, Ferelden would throw the templars out if they attacked Redcliffe, but why would they care? The mission against the mage rebellion would have been accomplished, and any of Teagan's guards who died in the fighting would have been acceptable losses. At the time (thanks to Alexius' shenanigans, that time is immediately after the Breach when Fiona might not even know that the Inquisition exists), accepting an alliance with Tevinter (and the indenturing contract said that they would all become Tevinter citizens eventually, and nothing in it implies that Alexius and his forces would be staying in and occupying Redcliffe) could legitimately seem like the only option.

 

Ultimately, she made a very bad decision out of her desperation that would have only ended up getting all the mages killed if the Inquisitor hadn't intervened. Is death really better than the circle? As someone who played a mage Hawke who supported Anders and supported what he did- I understand that Fiona was forced into a situation that wasn't any good. But her handling of the bad situation was inept. Sell them basically into slavery?? That was her bright idea?

 

I just don't buy her reasoning.

 

What I don't like is her absolute inability to deal with Alistair and the fact that I can't let the mages be free under my protection and still punish Fiona for getting everyone into the mess to begin with. I should have had the option to at least yell at her.



#84
S.W.

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... and nobody's blaming bad writing here?

 

Fiona was always a bit reckless, but she was also an uncompromising leader who detested slavery, so I would have expected that to be a hard line for her. Selling out to Tevinter doesn't make much sense given her convictions. I can understand the strain of losing the mage-templar war would force her to consider a compromise, or a weaker position, or a truce - hence the willingness to attend the conclave - but surely there must be other alternatives to indentured slavery? Surely, given the lack of options and the rise of the Inquisition, the reasonable choice would be to jump onto the back of that straight away? An organisation which rides off the back of chantry legitimacy - through Justinia's writ - without actually being part of it, in dire need of magical assistance, currently without allies? Sounds like a far better choice than Alexius.

 

Rather, I think it's much more likely that the writers needed to introduce a number of crucial elements to the plot - Tevinter, Alexius, the Venatori, and Dorian - but struggled to do so without sacrificing Fiona's character. It's sloppy.


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#85
TK514

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None of it would have been relevant, as Alexius would have removed them all from the country had he not been part of an unrelated conspiracy. And it's not like fighting the templars would have particularly increased public opinion of them; why would it?

 

Actually, Alexius never would have been in Ferelden if he hadn't been part of a directly related conspiracy.

 

As for your claims that Teagan wouldn't have let them in the castle, that's speculation on your part.  It is more likely that he didn't let them into the fortifications because there was no need.    The bandit templars are no proof that the Templar army was on Redcliffe's doorstep.  The only thing it is proof of is that some Templars didn't like the possibility of being forced to play nice with the Mages and deciding to go tromping around the Hinterlands.   There's no proof, that I can recall, of the Templar army ever being camped in the Hinterlands.

 

Even Fiona admits that they weren't there.

 

We are also told, on the matter of the Tranquil, that many of them were abandoned on the road.  While Fiona may not have ever made the decision to personally abandon the Tranquil, she is the leader of the mages.  The buck stops with here.  Further, at no time do we ever hear her denounce such actions, or, once the fate of the Redcliffe tranquil is discovered, lament their murder.

 

Instead we get "I would do it all again".  Of course she would.  When she makes that statement, she hasn't lost anything she hadn't already willingly given away.

 

Edit:  hit enter too soon.  Then there's the indentured servitude which becomes 'even the children will fight on the front lines'.  Why did she roll over for that?  The Inquisitor was right there, having already said they were in Redcliffe to meet with the Mages as potential allies.  For that matter, why didn't she do anything to prevent the Arl from being forced out of his home?  Even if Alexius had the Castle at that point, her protest could have come in the form of support for the Arl, using the not inconsiderable magical resources of the Rebellion to allow him or a portion of his men to remain in Redcliffe villiage while contacting Denerim for direct aid from the monarchy.

 

Fiona's only skill in Inquisition was turning advantage after advantage into failure until someone else gets lucky and bails her out.


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#86
Reznore57

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... and nobody's blaming bad writing here?

 

Fiona was always a bit reckless, but she was also an uncompromising leader who detested slavery, so I would have expected that to be a hard line for her. Selling out to Tevinter doesn't make much sense given her convictions. I can understand the strain of losing the mage-templar war would force her to consider a compromise, or a weaker position, or a truce - hence the willingness to attend the conclave - but surely there must be other alternatives to indentured slavery? Surely, given the lack of options and the rise of the Inquisition, the reasonable choice would be to jump onto the back of that straight away? An organisation which rides off the back of chantry legitimacy - through Justinia's writ - without actually being part of it, in dire need of magical assistance, currently without allies? Sounds like a far better choice than Alexius.

 

Rather, I think it's much more likely that the writers needed to introduce a number of crucial elements to the plot - Tevinter, Alexius, the Venatori, and Dorian - but struggled to do so without sacrificing Fiona's character. It's sloppy.

 

Don't get me started as a kid she was a slave and was beaten and raped.

So I can't understand how she can be naive about slavery now.



#87
Xilizhra

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As for your claims that Teagan wouldn't have let them in the castle, that's speculation on your part.  It is more likely that he didn't let them into the fortifications because there was no need.    The bandit templars are no proof that the Templar army was on Redcliffe's doorstep.  The only thing it is proof of is that some Templars didn't like the possibility of being forced to play nice with the Mages and deciding to go tromping around the Hinterlands.   There's no proof, that I can recall, of the Templar army ever being camped in the Hinterlands.

 

Even Fiona admits that they weren't there.

Vale would have mentioned that the templar deserters arrived in the Hinterlands from elsewhere if they'd done so, but what he says is that they're leftovers from the templars who were there already. And it's also complete speculation that Teagan would have let them into the castle, so that's a wash.

 

 

We are also told, on the matter of the Tranquil, that many of them were abandoned on the road.  While Fiona may not have ever made the decision to personally abandon the Tranquil, she is the leader of the mages.  The buck stops with here.  Further, at no time do we ever hear her denounce such actions, or, once the fate of the Redcliffe tranquil is discovered, lament their murder.

We never get a chance to tell her about the Tranquil being killed, so it's very possible she never knew about it.



#88
Lumix19

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Actually, Alexius never would have been in Ferelden if he hadn't been part of a directly related conspiracy.

 

As for your claims that Teagan wouldn't have let them in the castle, that's speculation on your part.  It is more likely that he didn't let them into the fortifications because there was no need.    The bandit templars are no proof that the Templar army was on Redcliffe's doorstep.  The only thing it is proof of is that some Templars didn't like the possibility of being forced to play nice with the Mages and deciding to go tromping around the Hinterlands.   There's no proof, that I can recall, of the Templar army ever being camped in the Hinterlands.

 

Even Fiona admits that they weren't there.

 

We are also told, on the matter of the Tranquil, that many of them were abandoned on the road.  While Fiona may not have ever made the decision to personally abandon the Tranquil, she is the leader of the mages.  The buck stops with here.  Further, at no time do we ever hear her denounce such actions, or, once the fate of the Redcliffe tranquil is discovered, lament their murder.

 

Instead we get "I would do it all again".  Of course she would.  When she makes that statement, she hasn't lost anything she hadn't already willingly given away.

In order to be recalled from the Hinterlands you first have to be in the Hinterlands.

Fiona says that a Templar attack was imminent, not sure when she admits they weren't there.



#89
TK514

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Vale would have mentioned that the templar deserters arrived in the Hinterlands from elsewhere if they'd done so, but what he says is that they're leftovers from the templars who were there already. And it's also complete speculation that Teagan would have let them into the castle, so that's a wash.

 

 

We never get a chance to tell her about the Tranquil being killed, so it's very possible she never knew about it.

 

So what you have is nothing and nothing to support your point.

 

In order to be recalled from the Hinterlands you first have to be in the Hinterlands.

Fiona says that a Templar attack was imminent, not sure when she admits they weren't there.

 

When she admits that she was deceived by Alexius' agitators in her ranks, spreading rumors of the non-existent imminent Templar attack.


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#90
duckley

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Part of why I dislike and disrespect Fiona comes from the manner in which she comported herself in The Calling and in Asunder. Just more of her arrogance in Inquisition.


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#91
Andromelek

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What I dislike most of the Mage's path is that you cannot judge Fiona, only Alexius, Fiona plays to be the victim for being fooled by Alexius, but if we are going to see the things like that, then Corypheus also fooled Alexius.
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#92
Wulfram

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We never get a chance to tell her about the Tranquil being killed, so it's very possible she never knew about it.


Clemence the Tranquil in the tavern doesn't know what's going on, he believes that Alexius has been banishing the Tranquil not killing them, so I think its probable that Fiona doesn't know either.

Though one could still consider that allowing the tranquil to be banished, and failing to investigate their actual fate, is a dereliction of her duty towards them.

#93
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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She cared more about beating the damn Templars than anything else, which is also why she willingly serves Corypheus during "In Your Heart Shall Burn."

I thought mage supporters usually pass that off as "brainwashing"? Cos the mages & Fiona would never willingly join the Venatori apparently, only the Templars are truly villainous :rolleyes:


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#94
Reznore57

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Clemence the Tranquil in the tavern doesn't know what's going on, he believes that Alexius has been banishing the Tranquil not killing them, so I think its probable that Fiona doesn't know either.

Though one could still consider that allowing the tranquil to be banished, and failing to investigate their actual fate, is a dereliction of her duty towards them.

 

Also being banished from Redcliffe means death for Tranquils.It's a warzone out in the Hinterlands and tranquils aren't the best when it comes to self preservation.



#95
Iakus

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Part of why I dislike and disrespect Fiona comes from the manner in which she comported herself in The Calling and in Asunder. Just more of her arrogance in Inquisition.

If she had been the same character as in Asunder, I could at least has respected her resolve, her willingness to stick to her cause even in the face of adversity.  Even if I can't condone her methods.

 

But betraying her people to Tevinter, selling the very rights they left the Circle for to the magisters?  The very rights she was willing to kill and die fro at White Spire?  How can I respect that?


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#96
Iakus

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Clemence the Tranquil in the tavern doesn't know what's going on, he believes that Alexius has been banishing the Tranquil not killing them, so I think its probable that Fiona doesn't know either.

Though one could still consider that allowing the tranquil to be banished, and failing to investigate their actual fate, is a dereliction of her duty towards them.

Yep, there was that one elven mage at Haven who took care of a bunch of Tranquil after the revolt, saying they could barely take care of themselves.



#97
S.W.

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Honestly, the plot would have made more sense if she'd been killed at the conclave.

After the conclave, the rebellion would be thrown into disarray. Several key leaders - including Fiona - had been killed, and the mages were completely disorganised. The Templars, who made more preparations for the conclave, and came out slightly less damaged (although they had problems of their own re: red lyrium) decided to use this moment of weakness to make a fatal strike against the mages at their stronghold in Redcliffe, knowing that the general populace would believe that the apostates were ultimately responsible for events at Haven. [insert epic battle scene here]. Whatever number of mages managed to escape the chaos - through boats, or secret passages, or whatever - turned immediately to Alexius.

This makes far more sense and is way more dramatically compelling. The Inquisition may have a vital role in aiding the mages escape or hindering their progress here - choosing a side on the mage-templar war as a result (we'd be in the dark about the deal already done with Alexius). After which the quests would progress as more or less normal. It also lengthens the mage-templar conflict and makes it more than an entrance plot. I wish we'd seen several battles, etc, or had to suffer reprecussions via. more than just a war table mission - templar/mage attacks, have to help them out on border scuffles, etc. etc.

I mean, I'm a massive fan of Fiona as a character, but I'd rather they kill her off than ruin her character.
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#98
The Baconer

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Rather, I think it's much more likely that the writers needed to introduce a number of crucial elements to the plot - Tevinter, Alexius, the Venatori, and Dorian - but struggled to do so without sacrificing Fiona's character. It's sloppy.

 

^ That is the largest problem with In Hushed Whispers.



#99
X Equestris

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People tend to forget two things:

  • Most mages are used to a sedentary lifestyle and not trained fighters. Wynne could travel from Adamant to Val-Royaux back to Adamant then back to Val-Royaux while casually slaughtering dozens of darkspawns and demons along the way, but she was the exception rather than the norm: most of the mages in Redclife were exhausted runaways who would have been slaughtered with ease by trained killers.
  • Alexius was prior to his wife's death one of the most liberal members of the Magisterium: chances are that Fiona knew him at least by reputation and thought that he was offering to help in good faith: she was genuinely shocked when he announced to the Herald his intention of turning the Southern mages into indenture servants and chances are that Alexius would never have tried to screw Fiona over if he had been his own agent instead of a desperate man looking for any chance to save his son's life.

For point one, maybe they should have thought about that before rebelling. I'm pro-mage, but the rebellion was very poorly planned out.

#100
Vilio1

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I do think there was some wasted potential with her character, but I like her well enough. She has the right ideas. Sure, she needs the player characters help to get things done, but so does everyone else in Bioware games  ;)