385 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Neither Soporati nor Laetan mages would dare lift a finger against refugees under a Magister's protection and if I don't picture his colleagues openly trying to antagonize him by sending slave hunters after his protégés.

 

Soporati mages don't exist (it's an exclusively non-mage class).

 

That is a large assumption of just how much protection a single magister like Alexius can afford hundreds of mages. Could he even provide them adequate shelter? Aside from that, these mages would have no path to true citizenship; they would be afforded no rights or opportunities within the Imperium. Trying to seek patronage through indentured servitude would be their best bet, and even then they would be viewed as jumped-up interlopers and competitors. Laetans in particular would revile them, as the southern mages would be their biggest threat in Tevinter society, and you can bet they would do something about it (Laetans are often known for acting even more fiercely than their Altus peers, as they lack the advantages of pedigree and affluence).

[riverbanks]

Maric grew up, and already in the end of the first book. The biggest example being that he killed his own love, Katriel, despite his feelings, because of her treason, and because it was his duty as the legitimate king of Ferelden, because it was justice and he couldn't afford his personal feelings to win over the right thing to do. I'm pretty sure this is the reaction of an adult and not just an angry teenager.

I could almost agree with this, if the entirety of The Calling hadn't happened, and we didn't have the canon knowledge that Loghain practically had to raise Cailan himself, because Maric didn't care about anything but avoiding his own life as much as he could, until it caught up with him. He had one brief moment of lucid thinking at some point, but after the moment passed with Rowan's death, he relapsed back into depression mode, and remained that way until his death.

I mean, I like the character, but lol, maturity was definitely never in Maric's list of qualities. That's the whole point of why he needed Loghain beside him his whole adult life; because someone had to be the grown up between the two of them, and it was never going to be him.

[dragonflight288]

The relationship between Fiona and Alexius reminds me of Lando and Vader in The Empire Strikes Back.

 

I'm going to quote the movie, but I'm going to swap Lando's name with Fiona's and Vader's name with Alexius, and that essentially sums up the whole situation in Redcliff from what I can tell. But otherwise the quote remains exactly the same besides the name changes. 

 

Fiona: You said they would remain here under my protection!

Alexius: I'm altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it further. 

[Former_Fiend]

My hatred of Fiona exists purely on the meta level, and is entirely justified, thank you very much.

 

Moot point, anyway. Far as my game world is concerned, her broken corpse lays buried beneath a mountain of ice and rubble. May it never be disturbed.

[Nixou]

Soporati mages don't exist (it's an exclusively non-mage class).

 

 

I'll rephrase it:

Neither muggles nor working-class mages.

Happy?

[demonicdivas]

*Slaps his face* Another one who does not pay attention, I'll say it once more, I never meant he knew Fiona was his mother, I meant that he surely knows Fiona was Duncan's friend.

 

If you'd made that clear in all your comments, then perhaps I wouldn't have responded in the way I did? Funny concept that. 

 

Nor is it obvious why it's so important that Alistair knows Fiona was Duncan's friend in the first place. But I'm going to leave it there because this is all rather pointless.

[dragonflight288]

If you'd made that clear in all your comments, then perhaps I wouldn't have responded in the way I did? Funny concept that. 

 

Nor is it obvious why it's so important that Alistair knows Fiona was Duncan's friend in the first place. But I'm going to leave it there because this is all rather pointless.

 

I think he's saying its obvious because Alistair pretty much worshiped the ground Duncan walked on, and anyone who was a friend of Duncan automatically goes up in points with him. 

 

Take Blackwall to see Warden Alistair and he'll comment that Duncan spoke well of Blackwall, although he (Alistair) never met the man. Rainier goes, "Duncan....He was a good man," and then drops the subject, but Alistair already liked him just from Duncan having spoken well of the person he was impersonating. 

 

But you are right in that it probably doesn't matter that Alistair does or does not know Fiona knew Duncan, because of the whole "working with a Tevinter Magister" thing. 

 

And Teagan went to Denerim, so it's quite likely all of Ferelden's bannorn knew what happened. 

[Andromelek]

And to be completely fair, Alistair's issues are actually fixable in-game - when you tell him to grow up, he does. Unlike both his parents, who live and die like angry teenagers who want to be treated like adults, but refuse to take responsibility for themselves as adults should, Alistair at least knows when it's time to grow up and stop blaming the big bad world for everything.

Nope, he doesn't, did you read the comics? That one was "hardened" Alistair, and still he's a treacherous whiny brat with a heavy victim complex, once reached the adulthood, people does not change (not for good at least) it pains me to admit it, but violence seems to be the only path to be taken when dealing with dudes like Alistair.

[o Ventus]

Oh sure, because betraying the ideals that led to the rebellion in the first place is so awesome. Why should they believe that the terms of the deal will be honored?

 

Because as far as they are aware (or at least as far as Fiona is aware), it's indenture themselves to Tevinter or die. As it turns out, the fear of death motivates people to take drastic measures.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Fiona acting out of character from her book incarnation is like Briala forgiving celene simply because celene loves her.

[Lady Artifice]

Fiona acting out of character from her book incarnation is like Briala forgiving celene simply because celene loves her.

 

Which was also ridiculous.

[riverbanks]

Nope, he doesn't, did you read the comics? That one was "hardened" Alistair

 

No, that was definitely unhardened Alistair. He spends the entire story in the comics whining about how he still doesn't want to be king 8 years after the fact; meanwhile, hardened Alistair admitted 0.2 seconds into Denerim that yes, he did always want to be king and was glad to take the crown now.

[kimgoold]

I believe the only reason King Alistair offered the Mages sanctuary is he felt an obligation to those that helped Ferelden during the Blight.  He attempted to do the same with the Dalish Elves and the Dwarves, and I doubt Duncan would even have mentioned Fiona except as a former Warden if at all.

[Andromelek]

No, that was definitely unhardened Alistair. He spends the entire story in the comics whining about how he still doesn't want to be king 8 years after the fact; meanwhile, hardened Alistair admitted 0.2 seconds into Denerim that yes, he did always want to be king and was glad to take the crown now.

Gaider did say that the comics happened with little difference unless he is dead (then such events never happened) and, some important things in the comic happened due his whiny behavior and victim complex, I don't see any clue that proves me wrong.

[Shienis]

Does anyone know, how exactly was Alexius supposed to get rid of the templar threat? And I mean the official version he told to Fiona. Or was she so naïve to believe "magister said it will be alright, so it will be alright"?

Because both versions I can come up with - kill them all (what could one magister & his escort do more than tons of mages in Redcliffe) or ask them nicely to leave (why would templars listen to him) - are very suspicious and should be the reason to reject his offer.

[Former_Fiend]

Does anyone know, how exactly was Alexius supposed to get rid of the templar threat? And I mean the official version he told to Fiona. Or was she so naïve to believe "magister said it will be alright, so it will be alright"?

Because both versions I can come up with - kill them all (what could one magister & his escort do more than tons of mages in Redcliffe) or ask them nicely to leave (why would templars listen to him) - are very suspicious and should be the reason to reject his offer.

 

I believe it was more a case of "I'm going to transport you all to Tevinter, which is outside the reach of the Templar army."

[Shienis]

I believe it was more a case of "I'm going to transport you all to Tevinter, which is outside the reach of the Templar army."

 

That is a valid explanation, however it makes me wonder why were they still here, when the Inquisitor arrived. That "immediate" danger wasn't apparently that immediate, if they could wait there for so long* and shows something about the magister's competence, which Fiona should at least question.

 

* the Inquisition wasn't founded in one day, then the Herald had to travel to Hinterlands, then back to Haven, then to Val Royeaux, then back to Haven... that is quite a lot of time

[Nixou]

No, that was definitely unhardened Alistair. He spends the entire story in the comics whining about how he still doesn't want to be king 8 years after the fact

 

 

Given the fact that Isabella hints at having slept with Alistair in the past (otherwise, where the "You used to be more fun" would be coming from?), this version of Alistair is most probably the romanced/hardened one

 

Besides, the comics gave us an interesting insight of Alistair's psyche: when in the Fade, he's seen being Marric's legitimized son and enjoyed the perks of the princely life. In other words, Alistair always wanted the lavish lifestyle, the material comforts, the hunting parties... But he never wanted the responsibilities that go with these. The fact that he was content to be a Grey Warden and originally didn't want the crown indicates that he knew, even at his whiniest, that he couldn't have one without the other and that if he had to chose, he'd rather remain an underling Warden rather than risk mismanaging a whole kingdom, which is actually much more mature than people give him credit for.

 

***

 

That is a valid explanation, however it makes me wonder why were they still here, when the Inquisitor arrived. That "immediate" danger wasn't apparently that immediate, if they could wait there for so long

 

 

I suppose Alexius could have claimed that more of his followers would arrive at reinforcement, force the Templars to retreat and regroup so the mage refugees would have the time to flee to Amaranthine and catch a boat.

[MisterJB]

Fiona acting out of character from her book incarnation is like Briala forgiving celene simply because celene loves her.

But I thought the writing was gospel.
You, afterall, are constantly asking Pro-Templars what will we do if the writers prove that Circles aren't needed.

But now Fiona is acting out of carácter?

[X Equestris]

Because as far as they are aware (or at least as far as Fiona is aware), it's indenture themselves to Tevinter or die. As it turns out, the fear of death motivates people to take drastic measures.

Yet Fiona was perfectly ready to die fighting for freedom against the Templars, and she had no qualms with dragging everyone with her. Now, when the going gets tough, she's ready to bow to a master that could easily be worse than what she rebelled against.

[Lumix19]

Yet Fiona was perfectly ready to die fighting for freedom against the Templars, and she had no qualms with dragging everyone with her. Now, when the going gets tough, she's ready to bow to a master that could easily be worse than what she rebelled against.

Could it really be worse? If she hadn't rebelled Lambert would have imprisoned the mages, executed others as an example and made others Tranquil. And he would have cracked down on mages for years to come, I'm imagining Kirkwall treatment here. In the face of that is 10 years of slavery, to a magister who is supposedly a moderate in Tevinter, all that bad? Certainly better than having every mage in Redcliffe killed down to the last man, woman and child. I think anyway.

[maxernst]

There's a whole series of assumptions built into your line of reasoning.  Even if the Templar army is capable of capturing Redcliffe, there are other players involved:  Queen Anora, Arl Eamon, the Inquisition, the remains of the Chantry hierarchy.  

 

Also, think of what Alexius is promising:  he's going to transport hundreds of people all the way to Tevinter by magic.  That sounds like an insane amount of power to me.  Shouldn't she be suspicious of somebody turning up with a suggestion like that at a time when a huge hole has just been torn in the veil?   (And yes, I hate Clerel too)

[Former_Fiend]

There's a whole series of assumptions built into your line of reasoning.  Even if the Templar army is capable of capturing Redcliffe, there are other players involved:  Queen Anora, Arl Eamon, the Inquisition, the remains of the Chantry hierarchy.  

 

Also, think of what Alexius is promising:  he's going to transport hundreds of people all the way to Tevinter by magic.  That sounds like an insane amount of power to me.  Shouldn't she be suspicious of somebody turning up with a suggestion like that at a time when a huge hole has just been torn in the veil?   (And yes, I hate Clerel too)

 

I had assumed he promised he was going to transport people by boat.

 

Teleportation isn't possible in the Dragon Age universe. The breach made a few things that shouldn't be possible possible, but but we didn't get any indication that mass teleportation over thousands of miles was one of them.

[Lumix19]

There's a whole series of assumptions built into your line of reasoning.  Even if the Templar army is capable of capturing Redcliffe, there are other players involved:  Queen Anora, Arl Eamon, the Inquisition, the remains of the Chantry hierarchy.  

 

Also, think of what Alexius is promising:  he's going to transport hundreds of people all the way to Tevinter by magic.  That sounds like an insane amount of power to me.  Shouldn't she be suspicious of somebody turning up with a suggestion like that at a time when a huge hole has just been torn in the veil?   (And yes, I hate Clerel too)

I would say the Templar army was almost definitely capable of taking Redcliffe, just because a castle is described as unassailable doesn't mean it actually is. I know people like to throw in that it's rarely been captured but it's been captured three times. Anyway I digress.

 

Looking at what we know we see that those defending Redcliffe consisted of whatever men Arl Eamon had and the rebel mages. The former were obviously few enough to get kicked out by the Venatori and the latter are powerless against templars. And note that the Ferelden army didn't arrive at Redcliffe basically until the whole situation was done, which means they wouldn't have arrived in time to stop the Templars who I'm sure the mages believed would kill every one of them.

 

Alexius' promise is the snag, perhaps he offered to remove them on boats as Fiend pointed out? Maybe he said he would help fight? Or maybe he promised he could help prevent the attack by the templars? If so things turned in his favor since the templars were recalled before they could attack (I don't believe that was a coincidence since we know that Envy was manipulating the templars so it seems plausible to me that Envy threatened the mages to scare them into signing on with Alexius and then recalled them).

What Alexius said to Fiona to make her believe that he could get rid of the Templars I have no idea but if such a conspiracy was occurring I can't blame Fiona for falling for it.

[Nixou]

(I don't believe that was a coincidence since we know that Envy was manipulating the templars so it seems plausible to me that Envy threatened the mages to scare them into signing on with Alexius and then recalled them).

 

 

That's another reason why forcing the players to chose between going after the Mages or after the Templars was such a wasted opportunity: imagine if the two quests had happened one after the others, with the Herald and company realizing in horror that both sides in the Mage-Templar conflict had been infiltrated and manipulated by an unknown enemy: it would have made Corypheus a much more threatening villain even before he was formally introduced.