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[Master Warder Z_]

But I thought the writing was gospel.
You, afterall, are constantly asking Pro-Templars what will we do if the writers prove that Circles aren't needed.

But now Fiona is acting out of carácter?

 

Now this is something I did miss.

[InfinitePaths]

Fiona acting out of character from her book incarnation is like Briala forgiving celene simply because celene loves her.

 

 

Which was also ridiculous.

 

I for one, completely understand Briala's decision in DA:I. Even though she knows what Celene did is "unforgivable", she understands Celene, she knows Celene, she loves Celene. She has been through it all Celene, she was her lover, her best friend, her agent, her partner in life. Celene is a part of her, and Briala is a part of Celene. No matter how flawed and sick their relationship is - life isn't the same without her. And Briala knows that Celene will try to help the elves in the future, as long as it does not threathen Celene's power, which she also understands and accepts. It's the way of the Orlesian game after all, a game which Briala gladly plays to benefit herself and the elves.

 

God dammit, why do I always fall for cheesy romance stories?

[Former_Fiend]

I for one, completely understand Briala's decision in DA:I. Even though she knows what Celene did is "unforgivable", she understands Celene, she knows Celene, she loves Celene. She has been through it all Celene, she was her lover, her best friend, her agent, her partner in life. Celene is a part of her, and Briala is a part of Celene. No matter how flawed and sick their relationship is - life isn't the same without her. And Briala knows that Celene will try to help the elves in the future, as long as it does not threathen Celene's power, which she also understands and accepts. It's the way of the Orlesian game after all, a game which Briala gladly plays to benefit herself and the elves.

 

God dammit, why do I always fall for cheesy romance stories?

 

Their story isn't cheesy. At best it's pathetic and at worst it's disgusting.

[Xilizhra]

Their story isn't cheesy. At best it's pathetic and at worst it's disgusting.

I can see the latter, but how would you deem it pathetic?

[Former_Fiend]

I can see the latter, but how would you deem it pathetic?

 

Well, that would be my interpretation of it in way InfinitePaths laid it out. If, after everything, Briala is so weak, so broken, so desperate for love that she goes back to Celene because she's familiar, that she thinks she can trust Celene after everything... I don't have another word for that than pathetic. Pitiable, I suppose.

[InfinitePaths]

I'm sorry if we're getting a bit off topic, OP, but I do love organic discussions. Please tell me to stop if I'm deviating the thread too much.

 

I just wanted to make another remark on the Celene/Briala thing. Wasn't Celene a 16 year old girl who had had the weight on her shoulders - the fact that she will either become the most powerful person in the South of Thedas or be assassinated or executed depending on whether she won or lost the game? Can you really blame a scared, inexperienced teenager for doing something like that, no matter how horrible it is, under such pressure? I do not condem her.

 

Would a 16 year old Briala also kill innocent humans if it put her in a position to save the elves and have control of the empire? I think she would. And I think she knows and understands this, no matter how Celene's betrayal hurts her.

 

And even if  many of you think that's sick, and I partly do too. It's a thing many people would do, including Solas *cough*. And I understand the reasoning behind it, even though I wouldn't do it myself.

[Barquiel]

Briala's dialogue at the end of TME makes it very clear she still loves Celene despite everything she did to her. I don't think it's OOC for her to forgive Celene.

[Xilizhra]

Well, that would be my interpretation of it in way InfinitePaths laid it out. If, after everything, Briala is so weak, so broken, so desperate for love that she goes back to Celene because she's familiar, that she thinks she can trust Celene after everything... I don't have another word for that than pathetic. Pitiable, I suppose.

If Celene's in power, this is the best means she has to fight for the rights of elvenkind. It's not like she's sublimating the rest of her character for this; her personal and political goals go hand-in-hand here.

[Former_Fiend]

I'm sorry if we're getting a bit off topic, OP, but I do love organic discussions. Please tell me to stop if I'm deviating the thread too much.

 

I just wanted to make another remark on the Celene/Briala thing. Wasn't Celene a 16 year old girl who had had the weight on her shoulders - the fact that she will either become the most powerful person in the South of Thedas or be assassinated or executed depending on whether she won or lost the game? Can you really blame a scared, inexperienced teenager for doing something like that, no matter how horrible it is, under such pressure? I do not condem her.

 

Would a 16 year old Briala also kill innocent humans if it put her in a position to save the elves and have control of the empire? I think she would. And I think she knows and understands this, no matter how Celene's betrayal hurts her.

 

And even if I think many of you think that's sick, and I partly do too. It's a thing many people would do, including Solas *cough*. And I understand the reasoning behind it, even though I wouldn't do it myself.

 

If you want to take away Celene's agency and make her a pawn of the great game who isn't responsible for her own actions, sure, I'll play along and say that in that scenario, no, I don't blame her for the deaths of Briala's parents. 

 

What I do blame her for is that after she had the girl's parents murdered, she took Briala into her bed as her lover and confidant for the next twenty years. I don't excuse any weakness of character for this; she's as vile a person as exists in the DA universe.

 

 

If Celene's in power, this is the best means she has to fight for the rights of elvenkind. It's not like she's sublimating the rest of her character for this; her personal and political goals go hand-in-hand here.

 

And if that was the portrayal, that she was doing it to manipulate Celene to better her goals, I could buy that. I don't think that is the portrayal, though. I think she's doing it because she's too weak to move on from the worst thing that ever happened to her.

 

Anyway, on topic. Fiona is horrible and I'm glad she's dead.

[Xilizhra]

And if that was the portrayal, that she was doing it to manipulate Celene to better her goals, I could buy that. I don't think that is the portrayal, though. I think she's doing it because she's too weak to move on from the worst thing that ever happened to her.

She's doing both. It's not like her political goals would be served by alienating Celene.

 

 

Anyway, on topic. Fiona is horrible and I'm glad she's dead.

I don't actually like Fiona that much, and would have much rather had my Hawke become leader of the mage rebellion, but I'm still never going to play Champions of the Just, because no matter how you look at it, more civilians will die if you don't play In Hushed Whispers.

[Lady Artifice]

I don't think it's even a bit romantic. That Celene cares about Briala, I acknowledge. What I don't see, however, is that this concern is anything above an exclusively selfish attachment. We never see any sign that Celene is capable of sacrificing her own interest for the sake of the woman she supposedly loves.

 

I'm sorry if we're getting a bit off topic, OP, but I do love organic discussions. Please tell me to stop if I'm deviating the thread too much.

 

I just wanted to make another remark on the Celene/Briala thing. Wasn't Celene a 16 year old girl who had had the weight on her shoulders - the fact that she will either become the most powerful person in the South of Thedas or be assassinated or executed depending on whether she won or lost the game? Can you really blame a scared, inexperienced teenager for doing something like that, no matter how horrible it is, under such pressure? I do not condem her.

 

Would a 16 year old Briala also kill innocent humans if it put her in a position to save the elves and have control of the empire? I think she would. And I think she knows and understands this, no matter how Celene's betrayal hurts her.

 

And even if  many of you think that's sick, and I partly do too. It's a thing many people would do, including Solas *cough*. And I understand the reasoning behind it, even though I wouldn't do it myself.

 

Excuses can be perhaps made for sixteen year old Celene. Adult Celene choosing to burn Halamshiral is more difficult to pardon. 

[InfinitePaths]

 

What I do blame her for is that after she had the girl's parents murdered, she took Briala into her bed as her lover and confidant for the next twenty years. I don't excuse any weakness of character for this; she's as vile a person as exists in the DA universe.

 

 

 

 

 

This is romantic tragic choice Celene had to make.

 

Do I tell the truth and lose my love who will proceed to hate me and never forgive me?

 

Or do I lie, carrying the horrible burden of looking her in the eyes every night, knowing that I killed her family, but I keeping her here, next to me, not losing her?

 

It's a horrible choice to make.

[thesuperdarkone2]

She's doing both. It's not like her political goals would be served by alienating Celene.


I don't actually like Fiona that much, and would have much rather had my Hawke become leader of the mage rebellion, but I'm still never going to play Champions of the Just, because no matter how you look at it, more civilians will die if you don't play In Hushed Whispers.

Not to mention that I prefer fighting red Templars and in hushed whispers is more enjoyable and less annoying than champions. In hushed whispers is just the better mission.

[InfinitePaths]

 

 

Excuses can be perhaps made for sixteen year old Celene. Adult Celene choosing to burn Halamshiral is more difficult to pardon. 

 

Even Briala pardoned Celene's decision to burn Halamshiral. If Celene had lost the throne, which she would have if she decided not to burn Halamshiral, the elves would have it worse in the long run under Gaspard's rule.

[Former_Fiend]

 

 

I don't actually like Fiona that much, and would have much rather had my Hawke become leader of the mage rebellion, but I'm still never going to play Champions of the Just, because no matter how you look at it, more civilians will die if you don't play In Hushed Whispers.

 

Champions just makes more sense to me from an in-universe perspective. By all appearances the Templars are a more stable and stronger ally, their method of helping to close the breach is safer, and of course in universe you have no way of knowing it's an either or decision at the time.

 

Fact that I get to kill off Fiona is purely a bonus, not my primary motive.

 

 

Not to mention that I prefer fighting red Templars and in hushed whispers is more enjoyable and less annoying than champions. In hushed whispers is just the better mission.

 

I disagree with that statement categorically.

 

 

This is romantic tragic choice Celene had to make.

 

Do I tell the truth and lose my love who will proceed to hate me and never forgive me?

 

Or do I lie, carrying the horrible burden of looking her in the eyes every night, knowing that I killed her family, but I keeping her here, next to me, not losing her?

 

It's a horrible choice to make.

 

It is. If you lack any shred of basic human decency. 

[Hellion Rex]

Not to mention that I prefer fighting red Templars and in hushed whispers is more enjoyable and less annoying than champions. In hushed whispers is just the better mission.

How is it annoying? In Champions, you don't have to deal with Fiona's ridiculous stupidity.

[Jaison1986]

Champions just makes more sense to me from an in-universe perspective. By all appearances the Templars are a more stable and stronger ally, their method of helping to close the breach is safer, and of course in universe you have no way of knowing it's an either or decision at the time.

 

Fact that I get to kill off Fiona is purely a bonus, not my primary motive.

 

 

Not really. We know nothing of the templars any more then the rebel mages. The templars are just holed up in their fort the same way the mages are at redcliffe. In fact, rushed whispers have a lot more sense of urgency if you go to redcliffe and discover tevinters have seized the city. You only find out that the templars are in trouble once you start their quest.

[Former_Fiend]

Not really. We know nothing of the templars any more then the rebel mages. The templars are just holed up in their fort the same way the mages are at redcliffe. In fact, rushed whispers have a lot more sense of urgency if you go to redcliffe and discover tevinters have seized the city. You only find out that the templars are in trouble once you start their quest.

 

See, from my perspective that's exactly why I go with the Templars. I go to Redcliffe, see what a sorry state the mages have gotten themselves into selling out to a Tevinter cult and think "Do I really want to ally with these idiots? The templars looked like they had their sh*t together in Val Royeaux. I'm going to go see what they're up to."

[Xilizhra]

See, from my perspective that's exactly why I go with the Templars. I go to Redcliffe, see what a sorry state the mages have gotten themselves into selling out to a Tevinter cult and think "Do I really want to ally with these idiots? The templars looked like they had their sh*t together in Val Royeaux. I'm going to go see what they're up to."

The templars are being openly led by a maniac who wants to turn the Templar Order into a new political power, and is presented as, frankly, cartoonishly evil. Despite this, absolutely no one speaks up about this beyond a very token protest.

[Jaison1986]

See, from my perspective that's exactly why I go with the Templars. I go to Redcliffe, see what a sorry state the mages have gotten themselves into selling out to a Tevinter cult and think "Do I really want to ally with these idiots? The templars looked like they had their sh*t together in Val Royeaux. I'm going to go see what they're up to."

 

And you leave an city at the mercy of Tevinter mages? At that point it's more about "who cares about the rebels? We need to kick these vints out!".

[Lady Artifice]

Even Briala pardoned Celene's decision to burn Halamshiral. If Celene lost the throne, which she would if she decided not to burn Halamshiral, the elves would have it worse in the long run under Gaspard's rule.

 

I know she did, that's what I think is ridiculous. 

 

There was also a third option available to Celene. The war hadn't officially started yet, she could have reconsidered Gaspard's offer of a political marriage. Once that was done, there are other options, some of them more ruthless than others. 

 

She could have done the decent thing and let Briala have her own life, while heading off Gaspard's war plans on a political field, where her strengths are. 

 

Or, she could have done something more creative and true to form. Which is more pragmatic, arranging a massacre, or arranging one hunting accident? 

 

The nobles would have still kicked up a fuss about the elves running wild without consequences, of course, but one of the biggest reasons she needed to avoid that was so that she would face Gaspard from a position of strength. If she swallows her pride enough to end that conflict before it begins, that stops being a political necessity.  

[Former_Fiend]

And you leave an city at the mercy of Tevinter mages? At that point it's more about "who cares about the rebels? We need to kick these vints out!".

 

That's really more Alistair and Anora's problem than mine.

[Shienis]

Not really. We know nothing of the templars any more then the rebel mages. The templars are just holed up in their fort the same way the mages are at redcliffe. In fact, rushed whispers have a lot more sense of urgency if you go to redcliffe and discover tevinters have seized the city. You only find out that the templars are in trouble once you start their quest.

 

But when you don't go to Redcliffe for the firendly chat Fiona invited you to, You have no clue about any danger to mages, whereas you have hints (yes, small hints, but they are there) in-and-after conversation with Lucy, that there's something strange going on with templars. Role-play-wise there's nothing wrong with path Val Royeaux -> Haven -> Therinfal, if your Inquisitor chooses to find out what's going on with the templars befire the tea party with Fiona.

[Jaison1986]

That's really more Alistair and Anora's problem than mine.

 

Not exactly. The Inquisition was founded with the pourpose of closing the breach and restoring order to the land. How can you restore order if you see Tevinter mages running about and do nothing about it?

[Former_Fiend]

Not exactly. The Inquisition was founded with the pourpose of closing the breach and restoring order to the land. How can you restore order if you see Tevinter mages running about and do nothing about it?

 

 

You'll note that the first order of business is "close the breach".

 

Restoring order is part of my job. Playing department of immigration for Ferelden is not.

 

Besides, even if it was, you know what would really help in kicking a large force of Tevinter magisters out of Redcliffe? Templars.