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[Ryzaki]

That's not true. Sten mentions the Tal-vashoth of Seheron in Origins.

 

? I'm not talking about there not being Tal Vashoth I'm talking about the Qun being flexible.

[Jandi]

? I'm not talking about there not being Tal Vashoth I'm talking about the Qun being flexible.

 

I must have misunderstoof your meaning, my apologies.

 

As for the Qun being flexible... well, according to IB, those who take... liberties with it are re-educated or killed. Everything we've seen about the Qun indicates that it is extremely literal with no exceptions. Sten is willing to let himself die because he lost his Sword due to no fault of his own. In DA 2 the Qunari were there to recover the book and once they have it, they cease any and all hostilities and go home even though you just killed their military leader, not *A* military leader, but *THE* military leader with no repercussions, nothing. Also, that Qunari mage will kill himself because you removed his bindings and the handlers will try to kill you for no other reason than the mage talking to you.

 

That's how blind obedience works.

[Ryzaki]

I must have misunderstoof your meaning, my apologies.

 

As for the Qun being flexible... well, according to IB, those who take... liberties with it are re-educated or killed. Everything we've seen about the Qun indicates that it is extremely literal with no exceptions. Sten is willing to let himself die because he lost his Sword due to no fault of his own. In DA 2 the Qunari were there to recover the book and once they have it, they cease any and all hostilities and go home even though you just killed their military leader, not *A* military leader, but *THE* military leader with no repercussions, nothing. Also, that Qunari mage will kill himself because you removed his bindings and the handlers will try to kill you for no other reason than the mage talking to you.

 

That's how blind obedience works.

 

We've seen parts of it that are literal with no exceptions. I just don't believe they would've lasted this long against Tevinter if they weren't somewhat flexible. Doesn't have to be a lot but they have to have some give. Otherwise they really should be hemorrhaging defectiors and converts should be nowhere near as many.

[Jandi]

True. It is said that the average human being only uses one per cent of their brain.. So what's the other 99 % doing?
So much untapped potential.

And on a related note, after hanging out on the BSN I can safely say that in many cases.. Its closer to 0.25%

 

Well, that's debateable. In my experience people aren't mentally challenged as much as they simply lack perspective which is born out of ignorance and lack of real life experience. It seems very easy to get stuck in delusional thinking on the internet when so many "communities" are nothing but circle-jerks that dismiss diverging notions out of hand and only care about reinforcing already held ideas, echo chambers.

[Jandi]

We've seen parts of it that are literal with no exceptions. I just don't believe they would've lasted this long against Tevinter if they weren't somewhat flexible. Doesn't have to be a lot but they have to have some give. Otherwise they really should be hemorrhaging defectiors and converts should be nowhere near as many.

 

I think that's due to our modern world view more than anything. It's easy to think more people would try to get away from such a system, however it's not that simple. In Roman times a begger on the streets of Rome was better off than most tribes outside it's borders.

 

Ideology is less important when you don't know if you'll be killed when you wake up in the morning. Most of their converts come from the hopeless of Thedas. Just like the Legion of the dead has no shortage of recruits. When you have no choices, opportunities or prospects in life, a certainty of a hot meal and security trumps over personal freedom. They'd rather die for *something* with a full belly than die for nothing, hungry and forgotten.

 

And people born to it simply don't know any better, they have no concept of personal freedoms because they've never even heard of the concept. When you're brought up from childhood to adhere to a certain ideology, it's extremely difficult to dismiss it all. Like Dorian for exmple in regards to slavery, he never even thought about slavery as a thing, it just *IS* the way it is. Nobody even thinks about it, and Tevinter is the opposite of the Qun.

Modifié par Jandi, 26 septembre 2015 - 04:32 .

[Ryzaki]

I think that's due to our modern world view more than anything. It's easy to think more people would try to get away from such a system, however it's not that simple. In Roman times a begger on the streets of Rome was better off than most tribes outside it's borders.

 

Ideology is less important when you don't know if you'll be killed when you wake up in the morning. Most of their converts come from the hopeless of Thedas. Just like the Legion of the dead has no shortage of recruits. When you have no choices, opportunities or prospects in life, a certainty of a hot meal and security trumps over personal freedom.

 

Fair enough it explains why they mostly get ex slaves and elves.

[Jandi]

Fair enough it explains why they mostly get ex slaves and elves.

I edited my post to clarify a bit.

[Nefla]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The possibility of the Qun being practical went out the window, shattered into a million pieces, and exploded the moment I saw Sten disbelieve that my Warden was both a warrior and a woman, or that a man can't be a baker. They've operated on Insane Troll Logic since they were introduced (as have most societies to some extent). So it makes perfect sense to me that the Qun has all of these loopholes; I don't see them as retcons, because they've always been this way. Is it inconsistent? Hell yes! I just think it's meant to be. That said, I don't necessarily believe Bull about Aqun-Athlok.

 

And going back to what I said about other most societies having at least some level of arbitrary and idiotic rules in place, it's actually the reason I am not as interested in the Qun as other people. I don't see it being as alien as it's made out to be. It's just like any other society, albeit extreme. But I would be very interested in seeing a culture that is truly 100% practical, which the Qun is not.

I preferred to think of them as Borg-like before, but either way I wish they'd planned the culture out ahead of time and kept things consistent. I just don't find DA:I's version interesting at all, they just seem like grumpy people with nationalized prostitution where the government picks your job it's so random.

 

Fine, Krem is a woman, that is factually correct. The reason I used "consider" at all was out of respect to Bioware's [and certain members of this forum's] insistence on attempting to rewrite reality to accommodate a handful of people who find themselves unhappy with their lot in life. [Which is unfortunate for them. Truly.] I was being polite and using words to qualify my statements so that people who I knew disagreed could clearly understand my point, with out having to get bogged down on the semantics of what makes a person man/woman. 

 

That said, if an other-kin proclaims themselves to be a dragon, do we take them at their word and insist it clearly must be so? No, of course not. Then why should we pretend someone is a man or woman simply because they would like to be one? As it stands we don't have the technology to make a proper transition happen, if that changes I would be more than happy to reconsider my position, until that time I am not.

 

"Interest Democracy" has nothing to do with it. It is your side that appeals to opinion and indulgence on the matter, not mine, and then obnoxiously pounces to correct when shown the least bit of consideration. You may pretend your opinion is correct but that relies entirely on upon whether or not the given person you ask has drank the Kool-Aid you are serving in the first place.

 

 

Find out? I thought most people pegged Krem as a woman from the get go, I did and never gave it second thought until I got Iron Bull's PSA on the matter. 

 

A dragon isn't a real thing and doesn't have a clear, defined role and treatment in our society that a person may hate or not fit into. I don't think anyone ever said Krem was biologically male (though technically he's as male as any other male video game character made of pixels). I don't pretend to fully understand being transgender because I'm not, but I do understand cruelty, non-acceptance based on who or what you are, and feeling like there's something wrong with you and I'm not going to perpetuate that. If someone identifies with the opposite gender they are born with then I'll accept them as who they are inside rather than for what role they serve in baby-making. What's it to me what their biological sex is anyway? 

 

I like serious Donk! I'm used to sarcastic gigs and emojis.

I agree with your points too. I'd also add that the whole SJW label has gotten so blatantly misused that it's become practically useless. There ARE SJWs on the board. The kind of people who argue that any negative plots regarding women or LGBT characters are a form of oppression. Who argue that Bull is an abusive rapist. Stuff like that. But the problem is that the 'counter movement' throws the term around so loosely that it's lost any power. I get called an SJW all the time and, outside of wanting to see LGBT themes in the games, I have never once made a statement that is ACTUALLY tumblr worthy. I don't 'drink male tears'. I don't generalize 'all straight white men.....'. I don't think straight guys should get less options as a form of digital reparations.

But because I want to see LGBT themes in the games because I enjoy them and relate to them and I don't think an LGBT character needs justification to be LGBT, I'm often branded an SJW. And, frankly, as soon as someone throws that term out at me, I immediately dismiss them because it's clear that they aren't actually reading my words.

I get called SJW all the time lol. Apparently when you hate bullying and treating a group poorly based on race/gender/sexuality/sexual identity/religion/ etc...then you're a "SJW" even if you don't rage against the opposite group to make your points.

[Shienis]

That said, if an other-kin proclaims themselves to be a dragon, do we take them at their word and insist it clearly must be so?

 

My friend is trans and gay and proclaims to be a dragonborn. I have no problem with that.  

[Jaison1986]

I get called SJW all the time lol. Apparently when you hate bullying and treating a group poorly based on race/gender/sexuality/sexual identity/religion/ etc...then you're a "SJW" even if you don't rage against the opposite group to make your points.

 

Well, both sides generalize. Some times I do call people SJW. I just do hate when people try to use political correctness to excuse their bad behaviour and their insults.

 

To me this is the classic attitude of an SJW:

 

Person: I don't really like Vivienne. She is mean and selfish.

SJW: Whoa there dude. Check your racism! White people are so stupid and prejudiced, ugh! And so sexist! You obviously hate Vivienne because she is a woman. Just **** off, I don't have time to educate you.

 

They make a lot of assumptions, generilize people and hate people majorities even if they are not prejudiced themselves. They act exactly like the people they criticize and think they totally have the moral high ground even so.

[Nefla]

Well, both sides generalize. Some times I do call people SJW. I just do hate when people try to use political correctness to excuse their bad behaviour and their insults.

 

To me this is the classic attitude of an SJW:

 

Person: I don't really like Vivienne. She is mean and selfish.

SJW: Whoa there dude. Check your racism! White people are so stupid and prejudiced, ugh! And so sexist! You obviously hate Vivienne because she is a woman. Just **** off, I don't have time to educate you.

 

They make a lot of assumptions, generilize people and hate people majorities even if they are not prejudiced themselves. They act exactly like the people they criticize and think they totally have the moral high ground even so.

Well I don't make those assumptions and generalize people but I still get called SJW

[Shechinah]

The thing is that the definition for a Social Justice Warrior is so over the place, in my opinion, that using it requires the person who applies the term to attach their definition of it because so many people have so many different definitions of the term that it's meaning is now only derived from whichever definition is familiar to recipients. The person who uses it may have an entirely different definition than the ones the recipients may have meaning a whole bucket of misunderstandings that sends a conversation or discussion into a mess that needn't be.    

 

Jaison1986's criteria for the term is one I can understand and even get behind because I've encountered similar people and find the attitude appalling as well as counterproductive to the goal of acceptance and inclusion but I've also encountered people whose criteria for the term is so small that they apply it to any person who or business that considers requesting or including elements of different sexualities and gender identities no matter how they may be implemented, executed or how polite and reasonable the request for said elements may have been. The term is used to invalidate arguments and the opinion of other people in place of actual counterarguments.

 

I've seen a fair share of times where the term is defined as an appeasement towards vocal minorities, where it is defined as pandering to social minorities, where it is defined as being about attitudes and where it is defined as being about some people having an oversensitivity towards percieved offenses.

 

As a note, that is not even half of the definitions I've seen for the term.  

[Toasted Llama]

I get called an SJW around here occasionaly and very often on youtube while tumblr despices me and still thinks I'm a priviliged cishitlordscumbageviloverlordofdoom.

 

So really, the insult is all about perspective.

[BansheeOwnage]

"Accepted values"

That is the PC of yesterday. To which I was referring to. It's just a different label now.

I am neither here, nor there. I do not believe gay or transgender should get "special treatment" people should be judged by their actions alone, not what they like to f*ck or if they get a sex change.

If a gay person decides to drop a bomb and kill millions of people. He or she should not get special treatment, they should be punished accordingly. Not because of their sexual orientation, but by the measure of their persona.

I don't think there are many LGBT people that disagree with you there, Donk. In fact, I haven't seen one who wants special privileges, only the same ones. And I agree 100% that the only thing worth judging someone over is their character.

[Bhryaen]

As a man, listening to a female voice come from a "Man" (Physically or Mentally) is quite jarring and it does trigger a macho response as men genetically can be offended by anything that can be perceived as weakness in other Men. Men, like dogs are generally pack animals. This is inherent.

 

Being a modern more sophisticated man however, in greater control of my instincts with an almost dangerously open-minded self-awareness... I find Krem an interesting, entertaining anomaly but nothing sensational.

 

I would think that a good % of people who apparently really like Krem, are really just eager to show they're accepting and understanding more than interested in him characteristically in general... bandwagon do gooders, so to speak and those generally infected with Political Correctness walking around on egg shells everyday in fear of offending someone.

lol Thank you for sharing your feelings about your manhood... though I have to wonder if you've been reading too much of the Men's Movt propaganda about what a "man" is supposed to be. Don't get me wrong: I strongly agree with a great deal of their assessments of modern feminism- and I believe I can fairly solidly describe myself as "anti-PC-" but their presumptuousness about men "naturally" being a particular way is just laughable. "We like competitiveness and sports and..." Yeah, no. Men are a tad more diverse than even a declaredly (debatably) positive stereotype ("macho" men included), as is all our species. If one feels themselves happily pigeon-holed into an "inherent" stereotype, good luck with that. But variables will continue to make humanity more well-rounded than that, whether "modern," "sophisticated," or no...

 

When I first heard Krem I thought the devs had just made- whether intentionally or no- a sort of badass, armored Androgynous Pat. (I may have said that on this thread already.) I was actually just confused as to whether Krem was a somewhat softer-voiced guy or a tough girl. The voice actress is just that damn good. (And if you've ever seen her, she's not in the least androgynous. Real men (and lesbians/bi's) would approve. haha)  Even Krem's appearance is ambiguous. But I wouldn't characterize my reaction as "jarred." At worst, just bemused. More precisely: curious. "Where are they going with this character?"

 

However, what stood out about Krem has always been his badass attitude and fun interactions with The Iron Bull. It's good writing, and the whole performance is pretty awesome, even as a fairly small portion of the DAI experience. (It is pretty small after all.) If they're going to have us interacting with yet another merc band, that was certainly a fun way to go about it. There are encounters in Baldur's Gate 1 like that where you meet other adventuring parties- always cool to encounter diverse groups who've been making a name for themselves in the world just like your own. I mean, we start with a human warrior Seeker, a dwarf archer with his crossbow Bianca, a quirky elf mage, and your Green-Handed protagonist. Then we encounter a qunari merc with his androgynous, short human side-kick, an elf mage/archer, a human healer named Scar (I think), etc. It's part of the fun of a fantasy-based rpg.

[daveliam]

@Jason1986

 

I also find people who look for offense where there isn't any to be annoying.  The example you gave is certainly one.  Here's another:

 

Person 1:  I like Krem.

Person 2:  Why?

Person 1:  Because I think he's a good character.

Person 2:  But why?  Krem's a token character.  There's absolutely nothing interesting about that character.  If you like Krem, then you must only like the character because she/he/it is trans.  She/he/it only talks about being trans and nothing else.  It's more SJW PC bullshit being shoved down my throat.  Bioware should stop pandering to fans.  Instead, they should make more content for their largest demographic.  I'm not homophobic, though.  I'm only saying this because it's the writing that concerns me.  But I can't say any of this because the SJWs are going to come swarming in and policing my thoughts.....!

Person 1:  Uh....... okay.  But I still like Krem.

 

This is equally annoying to me as the overly PC "SJW".

[Donk]

I don't think there are many LGBT people that disagree with you there, Donk. In fact, I haven't seen one who wants special privileges, only the same ones. And I agree 100% that the only thing worth judging someone over is their character.

Thing is, most of the "SJW" bashing is based on assumptions that different groups be it gay, transgender, women (feminist movement) and "person of colour" want special treatment or believe we are "special snowflakes".

Wanna know something funny though?
The "insult" or mode of attack is to claim that we say we are oppressed.

And yet.. Its the "straight Male" who stands up and speaks for every straight Male, that will complain about being oppressed because of the SJW. For instance, in this forum, there have been countless complaints about the romance options suck for straight males and implies that it's more favourable to others. While it is true that straight or bi females do get more options, lesbians and gay men also get two. And whos to say that we are happy with the two options we get?

So basically what I'm saying is.. Those who bash SJW and make the assumption that people like myself fall in that category and label.. Are the ones who are complaining about oppression. Or having agendas forced down their throat just because BioWare created and featured a transgender character. The hypocrisy is astounding.

[BansheeOwnage]

Thing is, most of the "SJW" bashing is based on assumptions that different groups be it gay, transgender, women (feminist movement) and "person of colour" want special treatment or believe we are "special snowflakes".

Wanna know something funny though?
The "insult" or mode of attack is to claim that we say we are oppressed.

And yet.. Its the "straight Male" who stands up and speaks for every straight Male, that will complain about being oppressed because of the SJW. For instance, in this forum, there have been countless complaints about the romance options suck for straight males and implies that it's more favourable to others. While it is true that straight or bi females do get more options, lesbians and gay men also get two. And whos to say that we are happy with the two options we get?

So basically what I'm saying is.. Those who bash SJW and make the assumption that people like myself fall in that category and label.. Are the ones who are complaining about oppression. Or having agendas forced down their throat just because BioWare created and featured a transgender character. The hypocrisy is astounding.

No argument here. Wanted to respond to the bolded part though. Those complaints are funny. We've been getting fewer options than straight males since forever, yet I don't see the same complaining. Then when straight/bi females get more options just once, they act like spoiled children.

 

"I'm being oppressed by LGBT people because I think Cassandra and Josephine are ugly!"

 

Even though, like you said, lesbians and gay guys got 2 options as well, and we may not like them either. And I don't like Josephine or Sera as romance options. My canon Inquisitor is single. I even didn't like them to the point of going completely out of my own character and trying Cullen's romance, even though I'm not attracted to him. (He's great though.) And yet, despite that, I have not made one single post that goes past "Well, it's disappointing, but I hope I get better options next time", better yet entire threads about my personal misfortunes.

 

Nor have I made any posts resenting straight and bisexual women for getting more options than us for once. They deserve to. Not that I think we should purposely unbalance the romance options to make up for the past or anything, I just think it's not a bad thing. They got an extension and put in more options that made sense, and everyone else still got their 2 options. So yeah, I don't understand why some people feel the need to make those ridiculous whining threads because of such things.

[Jandi]

I find it rather fascinating that there are so many people who care more about quotas than the actual game.

[Donk]

No argument here. Wanted to respond to the bolded part though. Those complaints are funny. We've been getting fewer options than straight males since forever, yet I don't see the same complaining. Then when straight/bi females get more options just once, they act like spoiled children.

 

"I'm being oppressed by LGBT people because I think Cassandra and Josephine are ugly!"

 

Even though, like you said, lesbians and gay guys got 2 options as well, and we may not like them either. And I don't like Josephine or Sera as romance options. My canon Inquisitor is single. I even didn't like them to the point of going completely out of my own character and trying Cullen's romance, even though I'm not attracted to him. (He's great though.) And yet, despite that, I have not made one single post that goes past "Well, it's disappointing, but I hope I get better options next time", better yet entire threads about my personal misfortunes.

 

Nor have I made any posts resenting straight and bisexual women for getting more options than us for once. They deserve to. Not that I think we should purposely unbalance the romance options to make up for the past or anything, I just think it's not a bad thing. They got an extension and put in more options that made sense, and everyone else still got their 2 options. So yeah, I don't understand why some people feel the need to make those ridiculous whining threads because of such things.

 

Until I joined the BSN, I wouldn't have thought to complain about romance options

 

In DA:O, I was attracted to Morrigan. I played as a man to romance her. I tried out Leliana after that, and she grew on me a lot.. the romance itself turned out to be sweet.

 

I also played as a male in ME quite a lot. The first time I laid eyes on Miranda I think I drooled at the screen for a good half an hour lol. Lesbians never had much of an option there either; there was Liara, Kelly Chambers in ME2 (which I don't really count as a romance) and Traynor in ME3.. but hell, gay men really got screwed in that series. They didn't get anything until ME3, and just judging by the activity in the ME:A boards there are quite a few fans. If they can put up with it, so can everybody else.

 

And in DA:I's case, I was fully prepared not to romance any body. That is, until I met Sera in Val Royeaux.

 

I guess what amuses me the most -- and it is the most ridiculous thing -- is how Cassandra's physical appearance is blamed on "SJW pandering", or the fact that Josephine doesn't get a sex scene, is also based on such (when there is plenty of nudity elsewhere). It is rather pea-brained and stupid to think that a character cannot exist and appeal to straight men. To the contrary; I see lots of straight men who dig Cassandra but no, because she has short hair and a "manly jawline" and it is proved by pseudo-scientific bullshit, these straight men must be closet homosexual, or brainwashed by the dread gay agenda!

 

Repent, for the end is nigh! No longer will you be able to play a game where your protagonist is a badarse beefcake like Duke Nukem and you can pay pornstar women with boob jobs two dollars to flash you. (I quite liked Duke Nukem as a kid, but that's beside the point)

[Jandi]

Repent, for the end is nigh! No longer will you be able to play a game where your protagonist is a badarse beefcake like Duke Nukem and you can pay pornstar women with boob jobs two dollars to flash you. (I quite liked Duke Nukem as a kid, but that's beside the point)

 

Oh I dunno... Witcher 3 is the salvation.

[Donk]

Oh I dunno... Witcher 3 is the salvation.

 

Have you ever been to the Steam forums?

 

I saw tonnes of "TW3 is the 'gay' game" complaints, back around the time it was released. I could have sworn I was on the BSN if not for the blue background.

[Jandi]

Have you ever been to the Steam forums?

 

I saw tonnes of "TW3 is the 'gay' game" complaints, back around the time it was released. I could have sworn I was on the BSN if not for the blue background.

 

Surely that was trolling.

 

Or the ramlings of madmen, cause Geralt drops panties faster than monsters!

[Donk]

Surely that was trolling.

 

Or the ramlings of madmen, cause Geralt drops panties faster than monsters!

 

From what I can recall they were referring to a minor NPC who is gay and mentions he had a relationship with a man.

 

Anyhow, that game was brilliant. I only wish I could have dropped panties as Ciri.

[Jandi]

From what I can recall they were referring to a minor NPC who is gay and mentions he had a relationship with a man.

 

Anyhow, that game was brilliant. I only wish I could have dropped panties as Ciri.

 

Yeah there was that hunter in the first village that helps you find the Griffon. I had actually completely forgot about the whole thing haha.