Yeah, his gender is so much of a focus that you only can mention it in your 3rd or 4th conversation with him and it is pretty much never brought up again. That makes so much sense now that you mention it.
That's not the point. The point is that it's the only conversation with any real meaning in regards to him as a human being. Also, it's brought up 3 times in Trespasser.
That's not the point. The point is that it's the only conversation with any real meaning in regards to him as a human being. Also, it's brought up 3 times in Trespasser.
I thought the big shtick with him was another example of the state of affairs in Tevinter. Gender politics was secondary to that.
Also I thought he gave an example of how bull isn't prejudiced against all of Tevinter, just certain groups in Tevinter.
That's mostly not his backstory, but Tevinter in general and it tells absolutely NOTHING about him as a human being.
Where you're from and who your parents were isn't character development except in Animes.
Sounds to me like you are selectively deciding which information you get about his past gets to "count" as his backstory and which doesn't.
He refused to marry against his wishes, which caused his father to sell himself into slavery. Having no other options, he joined the military, but deserted when his gender identity became a problem. He was tracked down as a deserter and almost killed until Bull rescued him. He joined the Chargers and became Bull's loyal second in command.
But that's not his backstory, right? That tells you nothing about him as a person and is just about "Tevinter in general", right? 
Oh, and it's only about his gender, right?
Sounds to me like you are selectively deciding which information you get about his past gets to "count" as his backstory and which doesn't.
He refused to marry against his wishes, which caused his father to sell himself into slavery. Having no other options, he joined the military, but deserted when his gender identity became a problem. He was tracked down as a deserter and almost killed until Bull rescued him. He joined the Chargers and became Bull's loyal second in command.
But that's not his backstory, right? That tells you nothing about him as a person and is just about "Tevinter in general", right?
OH! By all means! What does that tell you about him as a person? I'm just tingling with anticipation. The armchair psychologists the world over cannot wait for your analysis.
OH! By all means! What does that tell you about him as a person? I'm just tingling with anticipation. The armchair psychologists the world over cannot wait for your analysis.
Uh, it tells me that information that I just wrote. He's a minor character. What the hell do you want from him? That's a pretty well-developed back-story for a supporting NPC.
And what does "his gender" tell you about him as a person? How is that any more relevant and illuminating information than the stuff that I just wrote about? Answer? It's not. But keep on keeping on with your hyperbole (ironic that you were the one arguing about other people using that earlier, huh?)......
OH! By all means! What does that tell you about him as a person? I'm just tingling with anticipation. The armchair psychologists the world over cannot wait for your analysis.
What were you waiting for, a complete psych analysis for a character that appears in a handful of scenes? With the opinions of three separate psychologists from the University of Orlais to serve as footnotes, perhaps?
Seems to me like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. We get it, you don't like the character. Congratulations. Other people do. You can either make your peace with it, or keep flailing around trying to convince people they are wrong for liking a character in a video game.
Uh, it tells me that information that I just wrote. He's a minor character. What the hell do you want from him? That's a pretty well-developed back-story for a supporting NPC.
And what does "his gender" tell you about him as a person? How is that any more relevant and illuminating information than the stuff that I just wrote about? Answer? It's not. But keep on keeping on with your hyperbole (ironic that you were the one arguing about other people using that earlier, huh?)......
EXACTLY!
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Him being transgender means NOTHING.
You're finally getting it! Now, let's follow the path of logic and ask... why? Why include it beyond simply incuding it? Why not simply not mention it at all, it's obviously a woman doing the VO work. It would have been much better to not mention it at all. That's acceptace, when you stop blinking at things.
No. To not be a token character the quirk shouldn't be the *only* fleshed out thing about the character. Which is exactly the case with Krem. His gender is the only thing about him that is touched in any way.
Oh wait, he's a mercenary, sorry. So deep man, deeeeeep.
Sandal is liked because he killed an entire room of Darkspawn *somehow* while being a funny character. He and his ward are a comical relief. It's the same with Konrad, he's there to be funny. They are both so out of place that it becomes funny and endearing.
I disagree. While Krem's character may not be touched upon due to his status as a minor character, I do feel that it is shown:
Krem was capable of keeping his deception in the miltiary going for years, something that would very likely have required more than bribing the healer who performed the military physicals meaning he was either very lucky or very clever in how he went about it.
Krem did not view his or the other Chargers' deaths as betrayal according to Cole's banter following the Iron Bull's personal quest should it have that outcome despite Bull believing he would. This could be taken to mean that Krem believed in Iron Bull's judgement enough to believe that their last stand were meaningful in some way: that it was for a worthy reason and so he was willing to die trusting that. This would also fit with how Krem was the one who originally convinced the Iron Bull to reach out to the Inquisition.
I would have loved for Krem to have more dialogue about his perspective on Tevinter since it would have been from someone who was a slave nor a noble. It was still nice to have what we did and that they decided to give him a backstory like that.
Krem's role is also not intended to be that of comedic relief, in my opinion, but to have the role shared with the rest of the Chargers of being Hissra's ties to his non-Qun identity the Iron Bull. They were his companions. Had they've been given no presence, their relationship with Iron Bull would have been an informed relationship and feel less genuine. In my opinion, they feel like each had a character of their own but because they were the Iron Bull's companions, most of their character were not shared with the Inquisitor because they were not their companions. To me, it gave the feeling of an outsider looking in on the relationship and dynamic usually found with the protagonist and their own group of companions.
As a note: Sandal can be a very much depending on opinion as is with most characters in the franchise. Some might find traits of his endearing and humorous but others might find those very same traits irritating and overused To them, he can be a comedic relief character who is not used as sparsely as he should be and be especially grating in the second installment because of how not optional a character they see him as being.
What were you waiting for, a complete psych analysis for a character that appears in a handful of scenes? With the opinions of three separate psychologists from the University of Orlais to serve as footnotes, perhaps?
Seems to me like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. We get it, you don't like the character. Congratulations. Other people do. You can either make your peace with it, or keep flailing around trying to convince people they are wrong for liking a character in a video game.
I was waiting for exactly this kind of response. You got jack and **** and jack just left town. Thanks for making my point for me, even if you don't understand why you made it.
EXACTLY!
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Him being transgender means NOTHING.
You're finally getting it! Now, let's follow the path of logic and ask... why? Why include it beyond simply incuding it? Why not simply not mention it at all, it's obviously a woman doing the VO work. It would have been much better to not mention it at all. That's acceptace, when you stop blinking at things.
You seem to be trying to argue with me about something that I don't care about. I'm not arguing that he's a well-implemented or interesting character (read my earlier post). But you claim that he's 'just trans' and 'token' and 'blah, blah, blah'. My point is: You're wrong. And you are. And I've already provided you the other information (direct from the game) that demonstrates that you are wrong. So then you switch into these subjective arguments.
Writers add unrelated information about characters specifically to add to their backstory. Basically, you're trying to create a "Don't ask, Don't tell" style Catch-22. If his backstory is directly related to his gender identity, then he's a token. If his gender identity isn't related to the plot, then he's a token. So the only way that a trans character can exist without being a token is by never mentioning their gender identity at all and leaving it ambiguous or up for debate.
Frankly, I'm glad that you aren't the creative director of this series, because that sound like a really outdated and crappy way to include trans characters.
Also, please tell me more about how "acceptance" works as you continue to dismiss the minor trans character as a 'token', despite having all of your objective arguments blown out of the water......
You seem to be trying to argue with me about something that I don't care about. I'm not arguing that he's a well-implemented or interesting character (read my earlier post). But you claim that he's 'just trans' and 'token' and 'blah, blah, blah'. My point is: You're wrong. And you are. And I've already provided you the other information (direct from the game) that demonstrates that you are wrong. So then you switch into these subjective arguments.
Writers add unrelated information about characters specifically to add to their backstory. Basically, you're trying to create a "Don't ask, Don't tell" style Catch-22. If his backstory is directly related to his gender identity, then he's a token. If his gender identity isn't related to the plot, then he's a token. So the only way that a trans character can exist without being trans is by never mentioning their gender identity at all and leaving it ambiguous or up for debate.
Frankly, I'm glad that you aren't the creative director of this series, because that sound like a really outdated and crappy way to include trans characters.
Yeah that's not what I said at all but I guess all you have left is putting words in my mouth then arguing those. I'm done here.
EXACTLY!
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Him being transgender means NOTHING.
You're finally getting it! Now, let's follow the path of logic and ask... why? Why include it beyond simply incuding it? Why not simply not mention it at all, it's obviously a woman doing the VO work. It would have been much better to not mention it at all. That's acceptace, when you stop blinking at things.
And there you have it.
This is exactly what I talked about earlier. Because his gender is not an integral part of Krem's character/story, it's tokenism and shouldn't have been implemented (nevermind that the reason that he refused to marry, which triggered his story, was probably because he was attracted to women, but let's not muddle a good indignation story with boring old facts).
But then, earlier, you said that Dorian's personal quest was too in-your-face. So it wasn't tokenism, but the fact that Dorian being gay was important to his story was also bad because it was shoved down our throat or whatever.
As for ''why include it'', what kind of question is that? Because they wanted to. Why do the Orlesians have french accents? Why is Vivienne black? Why is Solas bald? Why do the Qunari have horns? How come dragons defy all the rules of physics by not faceplanting when they try to fly tons and tons of mass with comparatively itty bitty wings Why do humans even exist in a fantastic universe?
The answer is always going to be; because the devs wanted it that way. And they sure as hell don't need to justify their choices in their artistic products, least of all to people like you who will always take them the wrong way no matter how they do it.
This thread has obviously more than run its course, and seems to be little more than a hate thread in thinly veiled disguise, with an OP that is utterly uninterested in actual discussion. I am bowing out.
I wrote a post - I even researched Wikipedia articles and watched videos with banter!
Can a modder please just lock this thread.
Yeah that's not what I said at all but I guess all you have left is putting words in my mouth then arguing those. I'm done here.
I wasn't aware that I wrote this post, in which you specifically state that because his gender identity isn't directly related to the plot it 'means nothing'. And then go on to state that it 'would have been much better' if they never acknowledged his gender identity at all because 'that's acceptance'......
EXACTLY!
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Him being transgender means NOTHING.
You're finally getting it! Now, let's follow the path of logic and ask... why? Why include it beyond simply incuding it? Why not simply not mention it at all, it's obviously a woman doing the VO work. It would have been much better to not mention it at all. That's acceptace, when you stop blinking at things.
Sandal is liked because he killed an entire room of Darkspawn *somehow* while being a funny character. He and his ward are a comical relief. It's the same with Konrad, he's there to be funny. They are both so out of place that it becomes funny and endearing.
EDIT: I mean, I applaud BW for making an effort to distance their characters from stereotypes, but that doesn't make them immune to criticism.
To be fair here - Charges (including IB himself) are here only and exclusively for comic relief as well. For my taste humor is awful there - to call it "cheesy" would be to make a huge undeserved compliment to every "funny" scene or dialog with them. And -again - in my case the inevitable doom of Charges was sealed the moment I heard "I am not a mage" with that horrible monstrous squeaky voice. It was so stupid to begin with and got old the moment it was said, so when I heard it for the third time during IB quest I simply could not keep Charges alive. (Ok, not for that reason only but that elf killed any sympathy to Charges I could have)
So, here, you totally have it - a battalion of "funny" stupid characters. No other can claim that place in DAI.
I wasn't aware that I wrote this post, in which you specifically state that because his gender identity isn't directly related to the plot it 'means nothing'. And then go on to state that it 'would have been much better' if they never acknowledged his gender identity at all because 'that's acceptance'......
Mention =/= Acknowledge
You also left the rest of the sentence out.
Man, you sound like those tumblr SJWs who take things out of contrext and repeat nonsense in hopes that people get tired of correcting them. I pity you, I really do. I mean, how pathetic do you have to be to actually invent what other people say, then argue against that?
Mention =/= Acknowledge
You also left the rest of the sentence out.
Man, you sound like those tumblr SJWs who take things out of contrext and repeat nonsense in hopes that people get tired of correcting them. I pity you, I really do. I mean, how pathetic do you have to be to actually invent what other people say, then argue against that?
Fail. I included your entire post. Literally. Like, verbatim. Keep flailing, though. One of these times, you'll hit on an argument that actually sticks.
Fail. I included your entire post. Literally. Like, verbatim. Keep flailing, though. One of these times, you'll hit on an argument that actually sticks.
Holy **** you're messed up.
I wasn't aware that I wrote this post, in which you specifically state that because his gender identity isn't directly related to the plot it 'means nothing'. And then go on to state that it 'would have been much better' if they never acknowledged his gender identity at all because 'that's acceptance'......
I never said ANY of these things. You have some serious issues man.
Holy **** you're messed up.
I never said ANY of these things. You have some serious issues man.
Can a modder please just lock this thread.
No.
Do you go to other threads for other characters and say this?
Then explain to me how my summary of your statements is fundamentally different than the words that you used in the quote that I included with the summary. Because you keep saying it's different but fail to include any explanation about HOW it's different. Of course, I think we both know why that is, though, don't we....
This is why we shouldn't lick the glowing red lyrium crystals, and the reason my ignore list is so long...
I wish I hadn't run out of likes because I would be liking the heck out of your posts in this thread. I totally agree.
Then explain to me how my summary of your statements is fundamentally different than the words that you used in the quote that I included with the summary. Because you keep saying it's different but fail to include any explanation about HOW it's different. Of course, I think we both know why that is, though, don't we....
LOL! Again, typical SJW crap.
Here is the difference. I never said you should not ACKNOWLEDGE someone for being transgender, which is EXACTLY what you claimed I said. I said you don't need to MENTION it nor explain it unless ASKED. If you see a transgender person, do you go upto them and say "hey, you're a transgender man/woman" for no reason? No, cause that would be idiotic.
Then I said that acceptance means you stop blinking at transgender people. Meaning that when somoenes gender stops being a topic of conversation, then you've actually accepted them for who they are.
In the case with Krem, you can ask "why do you pass as a man?" Which is completely innocent question borne out of sincere confusion, he gets upset and then IB goes into this explanation thing like talking to a child. Then, to top it off, Krem says "maybe the Qun isn't so bad afterall" which is just so blatant that it makes you faceplam. Yeah, religious zealotry and blind obedience isn't so bad as long as you're treated as a man. Ofcourse, you're also treated as a number with no identity, but as long as you can wear pants it's great!
A better way in this particular scenario would been for Krem to simply say "I've always felt like a man" and simply leave it at that. Anyone who didn't grow up in a farm in Alabama knows what's going on coupled with the voice acting.
That is what I take issue with in this case. The IMPLEMENTATION is so crude and blatant that it makes me go "ugh".
More non answers. So how would you 'acknowledge' a trans character without 'mentioning' it? There were a bunch of people who thought Krem was a teenaged boy or a butch woman until he stated otherwise. How do you make it clear that a character is trans without 'mentioning' it?LOL! Again, typical SJW crap.
Here is the difference. I never said you should not ACKNOWLEDGE someone for being transgender, which is EXACTLY what you claimed I said. I said you don't need to MENTION it nor explain it unless ASKED. If you see a transgender person, do you go upto them and say "hey, you're a transgender man/woman" for no reason? No, cause that would be idiotic.
Then I said that acceptance means you stop blinking at transgender people. Meaning that when somoenes gender stops being a topic of conversation, then you've actually accepted them for who they are.
In the case with Krem, you can ask "why do you pass as a man?" Which is completely innocent question borne out of sincere confusion, he gets upset and then IB goes into this explanation thing like talking to a child. Then, to top it off, Krem says "maybe the Qun isn't so bad afterall" which is just so blatant that it makes you faceplam. Yeah, religious zealotry and blind obedience isn't so bad as long as you're treated as a man. Ofcourse, you're also treated as a number with no identity, but as long as you can wear pants it's great!
That is what I take issue with in this case. The IMPLEMENTATION is so crude and blatant that it makes me go "ugh".
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