69 respuestas en este tema

[Fenris8]

Rivalry is challenging. Yes he may not be able to control his rage but because he cant help it. I readup abt real victims who get hit or even subject to rape etc it damages the psyche. And the ego too, so i feel sorry for him even if hes mad at me. Then again Hawk is no counselor therefore they argue.
I think the theme is abt how far will we accomodate a hurt LI? I was pissed that some anti fenris just flamed that he was beyond help n negative.

[Fenris8]

Some on youtube very hostile and lack compassion. Yet they sided anders omg

[Fenris8]

I think the great thing is the smexy scene...

Smexy, as in the final kiss? Of course! my first few times i didn't romance him enough so he treated me as a buddy. I wish they could have combined both his quote of Victory with the kiss Woohoo 

[Fenris8]

Like I said - I didn't like lines like that in a romantic context.  It jarred to much with the a lot of the other writing.

 

'Hawke fulfill Fenris every request, while Fenris constantly scold him/her.'



Why 'must' he control himself?  He's allowed to react that way - Hadriana was one of his abusers.  He's allowed to be angry with the people who hurt him.  His anger is the direct result of that (which is why I would have liked to see it more on the friendship route).  Lines like 'There is no one left to blame. What I have done I have done to myself' are pretty self blame-y, and encouraging that way of thinking wasn't my cup of tea.

Indeed i agree he shouldn't have to control himself based on my research. But to me, when he said There is no one left to blame... shows his maturity and responsibility, ownership of his actions. 

[Catilina]

@Fenris8: 

Rivalry is challenging. Yes he may not be able to control his rage but because he cant help it. I readup abt real victims who get hit or even subject to rape etc it damages the psyche. And the ego too, so i feel sorry for him even if hes mad at me. Then again Hawk is no counselor therefore they argue. 

I think the theme is abt how far will we accomodate a hurt LI? I was pissed that some anti fenris just flamed that he was beyond help n negative. 

Some on youtube very hostile and lack compassion. Yet they sided anders omg 

 

 

Indeed i agree he shouldn't have to control himself based on my research. But to me, when he said There is no one left to blame... shows his maturity and responsibility, ownership of his actions. 

 

(1–2.) But that's Exactly what I say: you do not need to hurt him for the rivalry, If you hurt him, the whole thing makes no sense. Unfortunately, there are some stupid answer, but outside I think its credible.

 

Its true: you need to support the mages (and Anders), because most easier way to rivalry. Since I'm usually at mage side, pretty incredible the 100% friendly with Fenris (though of course I played that way too), but thechnically easy. That is why I tried out a rival path, which required some tactics the at the beginning, because I did not want to be rude to him. 

 

(3./a) Of course he need to contoll himself: he did not want to be slave his own anger!

(3./b) Indeed.

[Lythinae]

Indeed i agree he shouldn't have to control himself based on my research. But to me, when he said There is no one left to blame... shows his maturity and responsibility, ownership of his actions. 

 

'There is no one left to blame. What I have done I have done to myself.'

 

I really dislike that line, tbh.  It's pretty much what I mean by 'self blame-y'.  It feels like it's removing not just Danarius and Hadriana, but the whole Tevinter system from their involvement.  He's blaming himself for the long term effects of things other people have done (I mean, if you take them out, his backstory - and therefore, his game arc - would be really, really different)

[Catilina]

'There is no one left to blame. What I have done I have done to myself.'

 

I really dislike that line, tbh.  It's pretty much what I mean by 'self blame-y'.  It feels like it's removing not just Danarius and Hadriana, but the whole Tevinter system from their involvement.  He's blaming himself for the long term effects of things other people have done (I mean, if you take them out, his backstory - and therefore, his game arc - would be really, really different)

This sentence is not about this. This is about controlling anger, which have long tormented Fenris. Again. Remember: he regretted that he killed Hadriana. He said that he did not wanted! So he must to learn to controll his anger for himself, not for Hawke, or not for anyone other.

[Idun]

I'm friendmancing him with a warrior Hawke (this is my Evil Hawke Run), and I hate the decisions I have to make. The only reason I even wanted to romance him is his voice. I fully intended to dump his arse for Anders and only his wall-slam kiss convinced me to stick with him for this run. For every other run, I will go for Anders again.

[Catilina]

I'm friendmancing him with a warrior Hawke (this is my Evil Hawke Run), and I hate the decisions I have to make. The only reason I even wanted to romance him is his voice. I fully intended to dump his arse for Anders and only his wall-slam kiss convinced me to stick with him for this run. For every other run, I will go for Anders again.

What choices you hated? You do not need to make any wrong decision for his friendship. Fenris is not evil, he is good person, just angry, and have angst.

(Despite this, I prefer the rivalry path with him, it's believable with a mage Hawke, and perhaps also a pro.mage warrior /rogue.)

[Qun00]

Which path is better at helping him let go of the past?

[Lythinae]

Which path is better at helping him let go of the past?

 

I guess it depends how you define 'letting go', since I think it's generally the point of his arc anyway (and the romance is especially so).  The difference is in how you get there.  If you want to be able to be able to point out that it's his choice to hold on to his past/need for revenge, go for the rivalry.

[Catilina]

Which path is better at helping him let go of the past?

In the past I would have said that the friendship is the one way, but I realized that this was not quite true. The rivalry path equally good, and much believable, if your Hawke is mage, or stay on mage side. 

 

In the Friendship relation Fenris still blame the mages for everything, after killed Danarius.

In the Rivalry relation Fenris not blame the mages for everything.

 

Many people consider this sentence as evidence that the rivalry path is cruel:

 

„There is no one left to blame. What I have done I have done to myself”

 

I think he not starting blames himself for all what happen with him in his past, but also be able to take responsibility for his anger, and what he did from anger. HE. Not the “mages”.

[Dutchess]

'There is no one left to blame. What I have done I have done to myself.'

 

I really dislike that line, tbh.  It's pretty much what I mean by 'self blame-y'.  It feels like it's removing not just Danarius and Hadriana, but the whole Tevinter system from their involvement.  He's blaming himself for the long term effects of things other people have done (I mean, if you take them out, his backstory - and therefore, his game arc - would be really, really different)

 

While that line could be interpreted as Fenris blaming himself for all his misery I don't think that it's meant to imply that Fenris removes all blame from Danarius, Hadriana and Tevinter. Hawke can actually respond to his claim with "Danarius wasn't exactly blameless, you know." to which Fenris replies "And he is dead." The point being, yes, Danarius was a monster and responsible for all the things he put Fenris through: the ritual, the years of submission and indoctrination, the merciless hunt. But killing Danarius doesn't magically solve everything. It doesn't remove the consequences of some of the decisions Fenris made himself. To run from Hawke's bed chambers in a romance, to live as a ghost for years, avoiding to form attachments as much as possible out of fear, practically keeping his life on hold.

 

The problem is that it's explicitly shown in the game that Danarius is not giving up on pursuing Fenris, even after he's broken free from his leash a decade ago. So it's not like Fenris' tendencies to hide and his fear to build a life and risk Danarius tearing it all down again, are based on mere paranoia. And the game (meaning, Gaider) wanted to send the message that revenge doesn't solve everything and is not truly worth it. I think it's easy to disagree with that given the set up of Fenris' quests. Danarius was not letting him be and he absolutely deserved to die at Fenris' hands for everything he had done.

 

Anyway, I do like the aspects of rivalry that make Fenris feel more responsible for his own life and happiness. He is a victim and life hasn't been fair to him but ultimately he is the one who has to try to make things better for himself. Always blaming Danarius (and/or magic, which is what he does when friended) is not actually solving anything. It's shifting control and responsibility away to the outside, to the environment and factors out of his control. Can be easier when it means you get to shift unpleasant stuff away, but after years of slavery and being forced to run I believe that in the long run it's more empowering for Fenris to realize he is the master of his own  fate and life. His decisions can have good and less pleasant consequences and he has to deal with that. That's what it means to be free.

[Lythinae]

While that line could be interpreted as Fenris blaming himself for all his misery I don't think that it's meant to imply that Fenris removes all blame from Danarius, Hadriana and Tevinter. Hawke can actually respond to his claim with "Danarius wasn't exactly blameless, you know." to which Fenris replies "And he is dead." The point being, yes, Danarius was a monster and responsible for all the things he put Fenris through: the ritual, the years of submission and indoctrination, the merciless hunt. But killing Danarius doesn't magically solve everything. It doesn't remove the consequences of some of the decisions Fenris made himself. To run from Hawke's bed chambers in a romance, to live as a ghost for years, avoiding to form attachments as much as possible out of fear, practically keeping his life on hold.

 

The problem is that it's explicitly shown in the game that Danarius is not giving up on pursuing Fenris, even after he's broken free from his leash a decade ago. So it's not like Fenris' tendencies to hide and his fear to build a life and risk Danarius tearing it all down again, are based on mere paranoia. And the game (meaning, Gaider) wanted to send the message that revenge doesn't solve everything and is not truly worth it. I think it's easy to disagree with that given the set up of Fenris' quests. Danarius was not letting him be and he absolutely deserved to die at Fenris' hands for everything he had done.

 

Anyway, I do like the aspects of rivalry that make Fenris feel more responsible for his own life and happiness. He is a victim and life hasn't been fair to him but ultimately he is the one who has to try to make things better for himself. Always blaming Danarius (and/or magic, which is what he does when friended) is not actually solving anything. It's shifting control and responsibility away to the outside, to the environment and factors out of his control. Can be easier when it means you get to shift unpleasant stuff away, but after years of slavery and being forced to run I believe that in the long run it's more empowering for Fenris to realize he is the master of his own  fate and life. His decisions can have good and less pleasant consequences and he has to deal with that. That's what it means to be free.

 

'The problem is that it's explicitly shown in the game that Danarius is not giving up on pursuing Fenris'

 

Well, yeah.  But that's I'm getting at, and why I dislike the way 'always blaming Daranius' is treated as bad thing that must be fixed.  We're not talking about a lost shoe, we're talking about an abuser who will not let go.  It's pretty damn hard to recover from something like that, while it's still hanging over you head.  Being him dead won't change things overnight, either (and like I said, why personally I don't like that line - Fenris shifting blame from his abuser towards himself isn't really great either, and it hits very close to irl behaviour, without a real way of dealing with it.  He can take control of his actions, but that doesn't change the reason for why he has to do that/the way he reacts in the first place, and it shouldn't shift blame away). 

 

But I don't think any of those points disappear on the friendship path.  His whole arc is one of recovery from trauma, regardless of the 'side' you take.  It's more a matter of tone.

[Catilina]

'The problem is that it's explicitly shown in the game that Danarius is not giving up on pursuing Fenris'

Well, yeah.  But that's I'm getting at, and why I dislike the way 'always blaming Daranius' is treated as bad thing that must be fixed'.  We're not talking about a lost shoe, we're talking about an abuser who will not let go.  It's pretty damn hard to recover from something like that, while it's still hanging over you head.  Being him dead won't change things overnight, either (and like I said, why personally I don't like that line - Fenris shifting blame from his abuser towards himself isn't really great either, and it hits very close to irl behaviour, without a real way of dealing with it.  He can take control of his actions, but that doesn't change the reason for why he has to do that in the first place)

But I don't think any of these points disappear on the friendship path.  His whole arc is one of recovery from trauma, regardless of the 'side' you take.  It's more a matter of tone.

True, on the friendship path it does not disappear, but slower. 

 

Before he says that: „There is no one left to blame. What I have done I have done to myself”, he says:  “Maybe it is time to leave this hatred behind. It’s poison, yet I continue to swallow it.”

 

Then: he not blames himself, he just want to left his anger. He wants that.

 

If Hawke in everything agree with him, only slows down the process. This is maybe more subtle way, but not better. I think it depends more on temperament of Hawke. If you imagine a less kind, hot tempered character, your way the rivalry, if your Hawke are a kind, considerate, patient person, your way the friendship.*

 

I have both. I like better the rivalry.

 

_____

 

*This applies to mage, and/or pro-mage Hawke, on the templar side no matter, I think.

[Lythinae]

It's not slower, or in any way 'less' than the rivalry.  They end the same way.   Which is my point.

[Catilina]

It's not slower, or in any way 'less' than the rivalry.  They end the same way.   Which is my point.

Almost same (none of those is wrong).

[Dutchess]

It's not slower, or in any way 'less' than the rivalry.  They end the same way.   Which is my point.

 The same way as in, Fenris is finally truly free and ready to move on, yes. Not identical when it comes to his coping mechanisms. He is calmer overall on Friendship, because he gets to blame magic in general, and not just Danarius, for the bad things in his life and the world. On Rivalry there is more anger and frustration, but in the end he is ready to take his life in his own hands. One isn't necessarily worse or better than the other. Fenris deserves to be happy and I'm sure he'll manage to find happiness on either path. I assume he'll remain less tolerant and more distrustful of mages when friended, but obviously the game ends before we get to see the post-Danarius effects of the relationship with Hawke.

[Beerfish]

Fenris is one of my fav characters in the game, finally someone that agrees with me on the mage issue.

[Catilina]

Fenris is one of my fav characters in the game, finally someone that agrees with me on the mage issue.

Then: your way is the friendship.