22 réponses à ce sujet

[helpthisguyplease]

Now before everyone jumps to conclusions let me detail.

When I say warrior I say fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger, swashbuckler and sometimes bards with focus on the warrior side who can buff all.

And when I say mage I mean wizard, sorcerer, cleric, favoured souls which is still a cleric and druid. 

Also why are rogues so terrible in combat at epic levels?

So why do I say that well it is because a fighter for example at level 30 can kill anything faster then a wizard can and he can because your weapons can be enhanced to a level that can kill gods and so can the armor and well everything basically. 

So how do I know this well its testing besides the epic spell Vampiric Feast who is useless on undead and can not be used constantly only once you do to little damage on enemies and well you can get killed by them as they have a ton of live and if you fight undead you are doomed.

On the other hand a fighter at epic levels has a huge amount of hits per turn so usually you kill something very fast.Ranger on the other hand with perfect two weapon fighting can do 12 attacks in a round. I do not have to tell you what a killer a ranger is.

But here comes my question in 3.5 you a problem with that edition was that warrior classes where very weak compared to mage classes so why did this changed in neverwinter night 2 and the roles where changed?

[kamal_]

Cleric > all.

 

Fighter was strengthened by having super high magic enchantments available. Officially gods generally wield +5 weapons with one or two enchants (generally +1d6 elemental each), compare to what you can get in MotB, +8 with 15d6 of elemental damage.

[Dann-J]

It's the circle of life; melee classes start off strongest at low levels, casters eventually become more powerful at higher levels, then melee classes surpass them again at epic levels.

 

Casters are limited to just nine levels of spells (unless you include epic 'spells', which are really just feats) which they'll generally attain before reaching epic levels. Whereas a fighter's BAB (and hence attacks per round) will continue to increase right up to the experience cap. As they gain more powerful epic-level equipment that makes them highly resistant (or completely immune) to many spell effects, a tank become nigh-on unstoppable.

 

If you take equipment out of the picture, then technically monk is the most powerful class of all at epic levels. A naked monk still has all of their weapons and feat-granted protections. But of course, MotB is an absolute equipment-fest that would leave many a deity seething with jealousy.

[Arkalezth]

They aren't. Your entire argument is based on uber gear being available, which is not the usual. If you were playing in a low magic setting, you'd be asking the opposite.

[helpthisguyplease]

They aren't. Your entire argument is based on uber gear being available, which is not the usual. If you were playing in a low magic setting, you'd be asking the opposite.

Really but you have 12 hits per round with ranger and 6 if not more with other warrior classes. Can any spell surpass that?

[Dann-J]

Really but you have 12 hits per round with ranger and 6 if not more with other warrior classes. Can any spell surpass that?

 

Most melee classes have poor will saves, so unless they've got the right protective equipment they can be sitting ducks for mind-affecting spells. It doesn't matter how many attacks per round you're capable of if you spend the fight in an unresponsive stupor.

[Dann-J]

[Double-post]

[helpthisguyplease]

Most melee classes have poor will saves, so unless they've got the right protective equipment they can be sitting ducks for mind-affecting spells. It doesn't matter how many attacks per round you're capable of if you spend the fight in an unresponsive stupor.

Do they? For example a barbarian in rage state is quite resistant to mind affecting spells, a paladin is also I think especially at epic levels. That leaves fighter, ranger and bard who I bet has a spell or a song he can use to protect himself against mind affecting spells. And if you consider a monk a warrior well I do not have to explain him after all.

[Dann-J]

Do they? For example a barbarian in rage state is quite resistant to mind affecting spells, a paladin is also I think especially at epic levels. That leaves fighter, ranger and bard who I bet has a spell or a song he can use to protect himself against mind affecting spells. And if you consider a monk a warrior well I do not have to explain him after all.

 

The most that barbarian rage offers is +4 to will saves with Mighty Rage or Indomitable Will. Given their very low will saves to start with, that's not much of an improvement. An epic-level caster shouldn't have much trouble getting a mind-affecting spell to stick in the absence of appropriate protective equipment.

 

A paladin's Aura of Courage will protect them only from fear. Divine Grace will certainly bolster their will saves in general, but they would need a very high charisma ability to avoid being incapacitated by an epic-level caster with spells that hold, stun or daze.

 

Mind-affecting spells are the bane of fighters, as I found out when I started playing MotB with a figher / weapon master and encountered a host of angry wizards early on in the game. They had the annoying tendency to cast a mind-affecting spell that rendered him useless as soon as the fight started.

[rjshae]

Ideally it's a party that makes the success possible in a campaign, rather than any specific party member in combat only situations. A good RPG design will favor different class abilities at different times.

[helpthisguyplease]

The most that barbarian rage offers is +4 to will saves with Mighty Rage or Indomitable Will. Given their very low will saves to start with, that's not much of an improvement. An epic-level caster shouldn't have much trouble getting a mind-affecting spell to stick in the absence of appropriate protective equipment.

 

A paladin's Aura of Courage will protect them only from fear. Divine Grace will certainly bolster their will saves in general, but they would need a very high charisma ability to avoid being incapacitated by an epic-level caster with spells that hold, stun or daze.

 

Mind-affecting spells are the bane of fighters, as I found out when I started playing MotB with a figher / weapon master and encountered a host of angry wizards early on in the game. They had the annoying tendency to cast a mind-affecting spell that rendered him useless as soon as the fight started.

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Epic_RageI am speaking of epic levels after all so its +8 will save and  Indomitable Will  its +12 and with paladin you explained why. The problem was you chose a fighter the warrior class that has really no protection against spells. Ranger has some spells that help him I think.

[Dann-J]

Ideally it's a party that makes the success possible in a campaign, rather than any specific party member in combat only situations. A good RPG design will favor different class abilities at different times.

 

Indeed, a barbarian's best friend is the party spellcaster (especially a cleric). Spells like Protection from Alignment, Magic Circle Against Alignment or Mind Blank help to plug the holes in a barbarian's mental defences. And if anyone needs healing on a regular basis, it's a barbarian!

[Dann-J]

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Epic_RageI am speaking of epic levels after all so its +8 will save and  Indomitable Will  its +12 and with paladin you explained why. The problem was you chose a fighter the warrior class that has really no protection against spells. Ranger has some spells that help him I think.

 

The page for Indomitable Will suggests that a bug prevents the will saves from stacking with rage in NWN2. I wonder if this is also the case with Epic Rage?

 

And I wonder whether Mind Fog would negate most (or all, with the bug) of that bonus? If so, then it would be my spell of choice for dealing with those smelly, slobbering brutes. Although you'd want to hope you got that second mind-affecting spell in before they got to you...

[Dann-J]

Now that I've looked into feats that modify will saving throws, it seems there are a few options for melee classes to improve them.

 

By taking Toughness you can also take Steadfast Determinism, which would certainly help for any fighter/barbarian with a wisdom penalty (less than 10). Taking Iron Will would grant +2 to will saving throws (which equates to around 6 additional levels of a low-will-saving class), and then allow you to take Indomitable Soul.

 

That might not leave a barbarian many opportunities to take combat-oriented feats, although fighters generally have plenty of extra feats to spare.

[kamal_]

Will saving throw discussion is pointless, to wit:

 

Ethereal Jaunt, buff as desired because you can't attack the ethereal mage, Bigby's Forceful or Grasping hand spell (they have no save, and the melee person is unlikely to have sufficient spell resistance), stunning the warrior for one round per caster level with a unique stun effect there's no immunity to. Fight's over.

[Arkalezth]

Really but you have 12 hits per round with ranger and 6 if not more with other warrior classes. Can any spell surpass that?

 

You mean 12 attacks, which are not guaranteed to hit. Keep in mind that extra attacks get an AB penalty down to -25, or -27 if you're dual wielding.

 

Clerics and FS can get full BAB with a single spell, several caster classes can get a higher AB than warriors, which may translate to more hits... Not to mention that there's more to NWN2's combat than damage per second, and spells can have other uses, such as improving defences, controlling and/or neutralising enemies, etc. A wizard can often turn the tide of a battle with a single, well placed spell.

 

Then again, like rjshae said, DnD is supposed to be a party game. If fighters are better at... well, fighting, that's fine in my book. I disagree that's the case in NWN2, though.

[helpthisguyplease]

Will saving throw discussion is pointless, to wit:

 

Ethereal Jaunt, buff as desired because you can't attack the ethereal mage, Bigby's Forceful or Grasping hand spell (they have no save, and the melee person is unlikely to have sufficient spell resistance), stunning the warrior for one round per caster level with a unique stun effect there's no immunity to. Fight's over.

I am pretty sure you can because I am certain I killed mages that had etheral jaunt with a warrior granted I had enchantments so strong that could kill AO the overgod but I did. Also warriors have a ton of hitpoints and that is what I mean when you have 500 hit points or 900 in very rare cases do you think a turn is enough to kill a warrior?

Also that hand deals little damage I guess around 50 and something. and for a warrior who has 500 hit points or 900 in some cases that is not a lot of damage. Granted you probably can use it again and again and then the roll comes and if by chance after all there a minimum of 10 tries and the spell fails to stun him the mage is done for.

[Vertrix]

I don't think melee classes are so uber in op levels, to be honest. With a mage, i NEVER have problems, even in MotB....With fighters, i die quite often.
That said, yeah, maybe it is just my lack of skills, but i still think there is no melee class that can reach the amount of damage a mage deals.

[Arkalezth]

Right, so now it's about PVP. Well, wizards and sorcerers >>>>> everything in PVP. This has been common knowledge for nearly 10 years, so I'll just say that HP aren't that important, and that the statement about mages "being done for" is wrong, as they have the best defences in the game. Also, an AI-controlled mage is hardly the best example of the power of the class.

 

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is anymore. As explained above, the answer to your question is that your warrior is strong because MotB's gear is overpowered. You can always forgo crafting if you think it's too cheesy. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you.

[helpthisguyplease]

Nothing you explained it clearly enough and thank you for explaining.

[I_Raps]

Will saving throw discussion is pointless, to wit:

 

Ethereal Jaunt, buff as desired because you can't attack the ethereal mage,

 

You can attack an ethereal character with an area effect.  Whirlwind Attack is an area effect.  Many a treacherous Red Wizard has learned this the hard way.  They also learned how difficult it is to cast spells when they're taking 30 damage a round.

[The Fred]

It's due to NWN(2)'s unique set-up. In "pen and paper" 3.5, the casters win at higher levels, especially Epic levels. However, there are several significant differences:

- Casters don't get all the crazy out-of-combat utility in NWN, like Teleport, Plane Shift, Clone, Astral Projection and other things which let them do really significant things in the world (this can be to prepare for a combat or just for general usefulness). The Planar Binding spells become basic summoning spells, where in PnP they can be used for far more. And so on.

- A lot of game mechanics aren't implemented, for obvious reasons. In PnP, it's easy for casters to fly, for example. Etherealness lets you walk through walls, so you can hide inside rocks where you can't be hit. Polymorphing is way way more powerful. No Wall of Stone, etc. And so on.

- Really powerful magic weapons and armour are given to you essentially "for free" in NWN, with the crafting system (you literally get handed a whole bunch anyway, but you can craft +5 items without spending any cash, and you have loads of cash).

- The maps are smaller. There's a limit to spell range, and it's the sort of distance that a fighter can cover in a round. No throwing Fireballs at people half a mile away. Everything also feels a bit more cramped, making it hard to be tactical about your use of spells (especially if you have NPC allies using the stock AI).

- NWN2's action system is slightly borked, IIRC. If you try to move, you cancel your own spellcasting, and if you change your mind and cancel a spell (even before you've started casting) you have to wait a round to cast again. Stuff like that. It makes it difficult to play.

 

Obviously, this makes for a very different sort of situations. It's not just casters losing out, but overall it drastically changes the way the game works. This also makes "Cast Stoneskin, Fire Shield, and Mestil's Acid Sheath and just stand there" a viable tactic for spellcasters (which I used myself for a lot of NWN1), though that's mostly just stupid AI.

 

It's like a 2D slice of PnP; I don't mean this to suggest that it's "dumbed down" so much as that it's just more constricted, and constricted in a way that fighter-types prefer.

[Thorsson64]

I should point out that with MotB's overpowered weapons that the strongest PvM characters are probably "Kazes", i.e. dual wielding, flurrying monks, e.g. the original here.