Along the same vein of reasoning, if the Veil is what caused the elves to begin to age. Wouldn't living in areas where the Veil is thin be better for elves? Healthier, longer lives etc etc.
It also puts Zathrian's immortality in a new context, he did regain the immortality of his ancestors after all. It wasn't the blood magic itself that kept him alive but rather a constant supply of fade joojoo from his connection to the curse.
That's what I think.Along the same vein of reasoning, if the Veil is what caused the elves to begin to age. Wouldn't living in areas where the Veil is thin be better for elves? Healthier, longer lives etc etc.
It also puts Zathrian's immortality in a new context, he did regain the immortality of his ancestors after all. It wasn't the blood magic itself that kept him alive but rather a constant supply of fade joojoo from his connection to the curse.
No. The Veil locked something away. Something like the breach won't help - it won't reverse what Solas did. Whatever needs to be done to re-create the ancient elves has to involve the wholesale reversal of the process by which Solas created the Veil. Remember what we're told in the Library; the Veil split things in "two". My guess is that it may well be that some "spirits" are a part of the elves - their immortality and magic.Along the same vein of reasoning, if the Veil is what caused the elves to begin to age. Wouldn't living in areas where the Veil is thin be better for elves? Healthier, longer lives etc etc.
It also puts Zathrian's immortality in a new context, he did regain the immortality of his ancestors after all. It wasn't the blood magic itself that kept him alive but rather a constant supply of fade joojoo from his connection to the curse.
My theory is that the first elves were, in fact, spirits. Spirits that chose to become "more real" like Cole could become human. Yes, I know Cole required a model, but before the Veil the physical world and the Fade were bound much more closely. And I don't think they were as "real" as Cole became, they were more spirit than a human Cole. That's why creating the Veil cut them off from a part of themselves and they started aging. Without the connection to the Fade, the physical started to age and break down. There is a banter where Cole implies that Solas has seen something like him becoming human happen before.No. The Veil locked something away. Something like the breach won't help - it won't reverse what Solas did. Whatever needs to be done to re-create the ancient elves has to involve the wholesale reversal of the process by which Solas created the Veil. Remember what we're told in the Library; the Veil split things in "two". My guess is that it may well be that some "spirits" are a part of the elves - their immortality and magic.
Zathrian used blood magic. He bound a spirit. What he did had absolutely no connection to what the old elves were, and what Solas wants to re-create.
masturbation keep you young
/thread
Solas, or Fen Harel, is part Creator, part "Forgotton One". He unlike other Evanuris, could walk in the Void unscathed, to talk to the other "Clan" of the elven patheon.
I thought Abelas and the elves at the temple were bound to Mythal, that's why they remained ageless?
What I want to know is if your inquisitor drank from the well of sorrows and Mythal still lives will are binding to Mythal extend our inquisitors life?
Abelas talks about sleeping through the ages. Not incidentally, Solas also speaks of sleeping through the ages. The implication is that they're using some kind of magic cryo-sleep, Uthenera or something like it, to stay alive through the millennia.
Isn't it just uthenera? But the advanced kind? Where you draw sustenance (and presumably immortality) directly from the fade?
I don't think elves were originally spirits. That doesn't work with how we know spirits work now. The kind of identity that they need to become "real" is still them acting like a mirror. Cole is who he is because the real Cole wished - beyond anything - to have a non-mage life. That wish "made" Cole.My theory is that the first elves were, in fact, spirits. Spirits that chose to become "more real" like Cole could become human. Yes, I know Cole required a model, but before the Veil the physical world and the Fade were bound much more closely. And I don't think they were as "real" as Cole became, they were more spirit than a human Cole. That's why creating the Veil cut them off from a part of themselves and they started aging. Without the connection to the Fade, the physical started to age and break down. There is a banter where Cole implies that Solas has seen something like him becoming human happen before.
I recal Gaider saying that the reason children born of humans and elves were human was magical rather than genetic. This might explain that as well, the "more real" human part overpowers the malleable spirit part.
As for Zathrian, he may have used blood magic, but he used it to bind himself to a powerful spirit, a piece of the Fade in this world, one might say. I don't think mere proximity to tears in the Veil would be enough to affect eleven longevity, but binding a powerful enough spirit through blood might be enough.
I don't think elves were originally spirits. That doesn't work with how we know spirits work now. The kind of identity that they need to become "real" is still them acting like a mirror. Cole is who he is because the real Cole wished - beyond anything - to have a non-mage life. That wish "made" Cole.
Look at Hakkon - a wish made into flesh, reflecting an ideal. JOH teaches us a lot about spirits that IMO is totally diapositive of the hypothesis that elves were spirits.
What I think we can argue is whether elves - or part of them - became spirits, like the Baroness in DAA became a demon.
And remember - when Solas talks about the Fade, he talks about spirits as if they existed before the Fade. He doesn't speak of them as if they were people - as if they were the same as him.
Elves binding spirits don't become immortal.
There is hints the elves used to be spirits , though.
And Solas says spirits are people , you have a whole dialogue about it in Haven when he compared them to Cass , Leliana , Varric (the hypocrisy isn't lost on me , there)
"Spirits" having err...sex?Unless I miss something interesting never heard of something like that in current Thedas.
The Forbidden ones taking form , and leaving it when they felt like it .Banished from the earth .If a spirit can mimic a mortal , how do you end up knowing who is truly an elf , and who's a spirit?Both are immortal , both can frolick the fade (in uthenera , dreamers ) both can have bodies...Solas word talking about Cole at Skyhold "for all intend and purpose , he is human ."
Dreamers are elves , yet they call spirits "those who never manifested outside the Fade ", our brethren of the air.
Well Mythal was slained , a whisp of her was left , this is what happens to a spirit being slained.
When talking with Cole as an elf you can ask what he sees in you "Pulled.Blood that isn't blood..." well pulled from the fade I imagine?
Spirits are people who ended up on the "other side" when the Veil was created.
Spirits existed before the Veil.Spirits are people who ended up on the "other side" when the Veil was created.
Spirits existed before the Veil.
They did? Hmmm, maybe yes, maybe no. Even if there were spirits present in the pre-Veil Fade, I don't think they were the ones we get to see today. At least, not all of them.
Are you by any chance familiar with the Wheel of Time series? Awesome series, and a must read for any fantasy lover out there. It’s a 14 books series written by Robert Jordan, the first book being written in 1984. Bit of trivia: the author died while he was writing his twelfth book, and another author, Brandon Sanderson got to finish this epic series.
Anyway, this series has a lot of parallels with the DA universe, to the point where you can consider DA universe as an alternate one to the WoT one.
The main idea of the plot is the battle between the Creator and the Dark one, who was released by the magic users to gain more power, he reached out and tainted part of the world, Trollocs instead of Darkspawn, Dragon Reborn, fight to seal the Bore(their version of the Fade Rift), etc.
But one of the best part of the game except ta’veren(people touched by fate, able to bring great change to the world, kinda like our main characters) Is the existence of Tel’aran’rhiod.
http://wot.wikia.com.../Tel'aran'rhiod
Grrr, if the link sent you to a WoT wiki page about Tel, please use the search function there to look for Tel'aran'rhiod. The 'is messing with my link, or I'm messing with my link. Can't seem to realize which one is true.
Now you should read the description of this world of dreams(or better known as Wolf Dream to it’s first inhabitants, the immortal spirits of all the wolves that die in the real world).
Back on topic, when I think about the pre-Veil Fade, I think of the WoT version of the Tel’aran’rhiod. And don’t you find it curious that wolf spirits were the first ones that existed there?
We know that wolf spirits exist in the Fade as well, from a story about an elf Keeper that the Dread Wolf tried to hurt while in the Fade. He failed because his pet wolf attacked Fen’Harel and chased him even in the Fade.
I think the Forgotten Ones might be the wolf spirits of the primal fade, and Fen’Harel was once one of them, or he was a WolfBrother, but he chose to betray the wolf spirits and give the elven Dreamers all the secrets of the Fade and immortality. After all, many depiction of him are that in wolf form, not as an elf.
In Tel’aran’rhiod, the spirit of the wolves can live for eternity, unless someone kills them there, in which case they know eternal death. Maybe Fen’harel managed to tie the elves to the Fade the same way the wolf spirits where. I bet they weren’t very happy to have their realm invaded by a bunch of wannabe immortals.
So maybe the wolf spirits fought back, or the presence of the elves started to taint them(in WoT The Great Other can taint even those spirits, the result being Darkhouds or Shadowbrothwers).
I know that you can use the “U can’t use ideas from other series on this one”, But the Wolf Dream/Dream World of WoT is the obvious inspiration for the Fade, the similarities are way to glaring for it to be otherwise. And the similarities don’t end with the Dream World, but since both series are awesome, I have no complaints about it.
Anyway, the main point is that things might not what they seem, and we should also try to think outside the box to get a better picture of the truth about the Fade.
I for one think that the spirits and demons we see today are the souls of the elves that died pre-Veil and were tied to the Fade, or the ones that were still alive, but were in the Dream World when the Veil was raised. In time most of them forgot their true selves, succumbed to their base desires and become demons affiliated with their main flaw, be it laziness, desire, etc. Only few of them managed to keep to their true self, or they become benevolent spirits because their personality was a ‘light’ one. O f course I’m simplifying things with this description, but that should be the main gist of it.
They are the People Solas is trying to save. And his connection with the Fade is what makes him immortal.
That does not explain Abelas and friends, nor Felassan.
How does it not? Any ancient elves who have survived obviously had some method to do so. Abelas' explanation is already in the game. The Temple of Mythal, the geas that these guardians are under, preserves their innate immortality so that they can guard the temple. Powerful magic. Like I said about Solas, powerful magic. Something they do protects them from the sundering by the Veil. Felassan and Solas are both known Dreamers, who gain knowledge from the Fade. Seems logical that they both used said knowledge to escape the sundering effects by the Veil.
Still, according to the story, most of the ancient elves are dead, killed by the raising of the Veil.
Isn't it just uthenera? But the advanced kind? Where you draw sustenance (and presumably immortality) directly from the fade?
The "advanced kind" wasn't a method for immortality. The elves already possessed immortality. Uthenera was the elves tiring of the world, going to sleep, and dying. Some used it to explore the Fade and come back, and yes they were preserved during Uthenera by these advanced methods. Uthenera fosters death, hence the need for the advanced preservation methods.
http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Uthenera
No, this is confirmed. Records in Tresspasser describe spirits talking with elves. The archivists are also specialized spirits.They did? Hmmm, maybe yes, maybe no. Even if there were spirits present in the pre-Veil Fade, I don't think they were the ones we get to see today. At least, not all of them.[/size]
You mean an inaccurate myth about a god that isn't a god (Whose title as dread wolf is purely metaphorical) and certainly doesn't hunt and kill in the Fade for sport?And it was the Keeper's hound, not a wolf, that protected him while they were dreaming.We know that wolf spirits exist in the Fade as well, from a story about an elf Keeper that the Dread Wolf tried to hurt while in the Fade. He failed because his pet wolf attacked Fen’Harel and chased him even in the Fade.
Have you played Tresspasser? The Elven gods weren't spirits, they were mages of tremendous power. The Forgotten Ones are apparently just the ones that refused to be worshipped as gods. Fen'Harel only got called the Dread Wolf as an insult, which he adopted as a badge of pride. As to appearing as a wolf in the Fade, that's his choice. The Warden can turn into a mouse in the Fade, it doesn't make him a mouse spirit.I think the Forgotten Ones might be the wolf spirits of the primal fade, and Fen’Harel was once one of them, or he was a WolfBrother, but he chose to betray the wolf spirits and give the elven Dreamers all the secrets of the Fade and immortality. After all, many depiction of him are that in wolf form, not as an elf.
It seems to me you're projecting one series onto another even when there's nothing to support it. The only point that gives any significance to wolves in DA lore is the title of Fen'Harel, whose title was bestowed by the Evanuris as an insult because they saw him as a wolf in sheep's clothing, not because he was a literal wolf.I know that you can use the “U can’t use ideas from other series on this one”, But the Wolf Dream/Dream World of WoT is the obvious inspiration for the Fade, the similarities are way to glaring for it to be otherwise. And the similarities don’t end with the Dream World, but since both series are awesome, I have no complaints about it.
Anyway, the main point is that things might not what they seem, and we should also try to think outside the box to get a better picture of the truth about the Fade.
While I too believe there is a closer connection between spirits and people than the people of Thedas believe, the records in Trespasser clearly indicate the existence of spirits before the Veil, even if they were more like people than now. And demons don't work the way you describe, they attune themselves to emotions and concepts they see in the minds of dreamers and are shaped by their perception. See how Solas' friend was twisted into a Pride demon, he says this happens because of the preconceptions of people. Demons and spirits are shaped by external rather than internal influences.I for one think that the spirits and demons we see today are the souls of the elves that died pre-Veil and were tied to the Fade, or the ones that were still alive, but were in the Dream World when the Veil was raised. In time most of them forgot their true selves, succumbed to their base desires and become demons affiliated with their main flaw, be it laziness, desire, etc. Only few of them managed to keep to their true self, or they become benevolent spirits because their personality was a ‘light’ one. O f course I’m simplifying things with this description, but that should be the main gist of it.
They are the People Solas is trying to save. And his connection with the Fade is what makes him immortal.
...
Nope, haven't played the last DLC yet, just watched some short videos about the end and some minor stuff. Couldn't help myself.
Maybe the information there will make me change my outlook on some issues.
You think that the Dream World of WoT is completely different from the one in DA. You might be right, but I still think the similarities are too many to not consider it the benchmark from it the Fade was created as an idea in the DA universe..
Back to the wolf spirits, the elves are not the only ones that see wolves as special and connected to the Fade. The avvar do as well from what I remember. But maybe they've just seen some elvhen statues representing him and made up their own stories about it.
But the "wolf in sheep's clothing" theory doesn't hold much water. You base your point of view on the fact that the elvhen even had that saying, or even sheep for that matter(yup, I did the 10 meat quest). And the animal most associated with slyness is the fox, in our culture at least.
Do you really think Mythal would have chosen to have his likeness in her temple in wolf form if it was a derogatory thing in the way he was seen? I think she likes him to much to do that.
Anyway, there are multiple wolf legends in different phanteons, so maybe there is a connection between Solas and the wolf spirits, and maybe they exist. I guess we'll find out who's right sooner or later.
Demons and spirits are shaped by external rather than internal influences.
Yup, in this I might change my mind and agree with you. Maybe they started changing in response to outside stimuli, but I think their inner strength had a part to play as well. After all, peaceful spirits come in contact with mages all the time, and not all become demons in the process.
Maybe it is their focus or resolve or willpower or whatever you want to call it.
As for the Forgotten Ones. They might not be the spirits from the initial Fade, but that does not mean that there wasn’t a fight between the elves and the spirits, especially since as you said yourself, the spirits can be corrupted by outside influences. Maybe this was the first war that made the generals living gods.
The Forgotten Ones came later, as Titans, or an entire different species found in the deep, or constructs made of lyrium that could be possessed by some spirits turned into demons by the elves’ presence in the Fade, etc.
Damn, I really need to get me that Trespasser DLC.
Neither the elves nor the Avvar hold wolves to be specially connected to the Fade. The elves have stories of Fen'Harel as a wolf, but Trespasser reveals that all the elven gods, including Fen'Harel, were only elven mages of incredible power that came to be worshipped as gods by their subjects. Fen'Harel was different because he rejected his godhood and tried to incite the elves against the elven gods. Dread Wolf was just a title.[/size]
Back to the wolf spirits, the elves are not the only ones that see wolves as special and connected to the Fade. The avvar do as well from what I remember. But maybe they've just seen some elvhen statues representing him and made up their own stories about it.[/size]
We get this point blank from a very credible source in Trespasser. Dread Wolf was originally an insult given to him by his enemies, but he chose to adopt it as a badge of pride. Its not his original name.But the "wolf in sheep's clothing" theory doesn't hold much water. You base your point of view on the fact that the elvhen even had that saying, or even sheep for that matter(yup, I did the 10 meat quest). And the animal most associated with slyness is the fox, in our culture at least.[/size]
Do you really think Mythal would have chosen to have his likeness in her temple in wolf form if it was a derogatory thing in the way he was seen? I think she likes him to much to do that. [/size]
What stories? I can't think of any stories of wolves except for Fen'Harel.[/size]
Anyway, there are multiple wolf legends in different phanteons, so maybe there is a connection between Solas and the wolf spirits, and maybe they exist. I guess we'll find out who's right sooner or later.[/size]
In Jaws of Hakkon, there's a message from one of the Forgotten Ones indicating they were like the elven gods but became enemies because they opposed being worshipped as gods.The Forgotten Ones came later, as Titans, or an entire different species found in the deep, or constructs made of lyrium that could be possessed by some spirits turned into demons by the elves’ presence in the Fade, etc.[/size]
Yes, yes you do[/size]
Damn, I really need to get me that Trespasser DLC. [/size]
L'Oreal sounds like the name of an elven god.
Maybe it is...
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