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[PillingPower]

I thought I’d share my thoughts on the Mage/Redcliffe vs Templar/Therinfal plot threads, though I realise this is ground that has been gone over many times before.

 

Strongest Plot hook

 

The main reason to investigate Therinfal is Cassandra noting the High Seeker is acting out of character. At Redcliffe, however, the Inquisitor is presented with strange goings on first hand through Fiona’s odd reactions, and a stern warning from Dorian of nefarious goings-on.

 

Winner: Mages/Redcliffe

 

Mission immersion

 

Each mission is interesting and presents different challenges – mechanically the preference is a fairly arbitrary one. Certainly Therinfal presents a good introduction to Cole, who otherwise is just dropped in the lap of the Inquisitor. Redcliffe of course strengthens the relationship with Dorian, but at least he still has some significant interaction with the Inquisitor if the Templar path is chosen.

Both missions give glimpses of the consequences of a Corypheus victory, the Mage path more literally, of course.

I can’t really choose much between them, but I did find the time travel option marginally more fulfilling because of the shock value.

 

Winner: Mages/Redcliffe (marginal)

 

Subsequent Missions

 

Calpernia is a better, deeper nemesis figure I think, but Samson’s mission and the interaction with Cullen is stronger. A surviving Ser Barris can of course offer war table missions (unless they are bugged and never appear, as was my fate) and be promoted to titular Grandmaster.

 

Winner: Draw

 

Subsequent plot:

 

Having the Templars join up, through conscription or otherwise, explains far better the military rise of the Inquisition. However, I’d also say that the shock value of an army of corrupted Templars is also more powerful to view outside Haven, rather than some Venatori and Fiona's rebels.

It’s only a small thing but the Templar route also helps explain better the banner in the corridor outside the Inquisitior’s bedroom!

 

Winner: Templar/Therinfal

 

Overall winner: Mages/Redcliffe

 

Conclusion: I only ever make two full playthroughs in Bioware games – one when it first comes out, and one when the dlc is completed. The second establishes my game ‘canon’ and this time I’ve chosen the Templar/Therinfal route – my initial playthrough was the Mages/Redcliffe. It’s a real  shame I hit the Ser Barris bug but I haven’t the time to go back and try to change things. Ah well. I do think the Mage/Redcliffe route is the slightly stronger option, plot wise. It’s just a shame they are mutually exclusive paths! 

[Cobra's_back]

I have to agree. A surviving Ser Barris was a winner and an agent. I love the part where you get to promote him. Helping Cullen with his lyrium addiction was also a plus because he helps the Templars give it up. Asking Cass to rebuild the seekers allows some of the Templars to join the seekers. My favorite playthrough was Cass divine and siding with the Templars.

 

You still can get Dorian at max approval doing this as well playing a female inquisitor. 

[renfrees]

Time travel is one of the most cheap narrative devices, thus the prize goes to Therinfall.

[Ferretinabun]

Another thing to consider is Epilogues.

 

No matter what choices you make in the game, it is canon that both the Circle is re-established and a new College of Enchanters for independent mages is created.

 

I'd say this ties in much better with the Inquisition siding with the mages - and possibly even better that they were independent allies rather than conscripts.

 

The templars get very short-changed by the epilogue slides, which fits neatly with them basically disappearing.

 

Which is all a shame as I do like the templar story.

[Ranadiel Marius]

The Templars actually help you in their quest, express regret for their failings, and express a desire to do better. The mage leader never believes she f-ed up despite making some of the worst possible decisions and the mages are just some prize to be won. So I tend to prefer Champions of the Just, even without factoring in Set Badass Barris.

[BSpud]

Time travel is one of the most cheap narrative devices

 

This is one of the most cheap forms of criticism.

[Poledo]

Another thing to consider is Epilogues.

 

No matter what choices you make in the game, it is canon that both the Circle is re-established and a new College of Enchanters for independent mages is created.

 

I'd say this ties in much better with the Inquisition siding with the mages - and possibly even better that they were independent allies rather than conscripts.

 

The templars get very short-changed by the epilogue slides, which fits neatly with them basically disappearing.

 

Which is all a shame as I do like the templar story.

 

I like the Templar option if you convince Cullen to quit lyrium. He helps other Templars be free of it.

[renfrees]

This is one of the most cheap forms of criticism.

It had been discussed many times before, so I didn't feel I need to elaborate why. But if you insist: an idea that you can fix everything with a magical reset button is a very harmful one. It allows for exploitation of the most ridiculous and/or nefarious plots without developed and satisfactory resolution, if you don't count going full backwards with "it didn't really happen" as one. It also exploits reader/viewer's feelings on the subject, because again - "it didn't really happen".

[Catche Jagger]

The time travel was really, really dumb and extremely immersion breaking for me. They should have never included such a ridiculous element in the game if they weren't going to put more writing focus on it.

[BSpud]

I know why. Just sick of the Tv Tropes generation parroting it so much as conventional wisdom.

 

It's a storytelling device, neither inherently good or bad. It works sometimes, and not other times. Worked perfectly enough in DAI for me.

[Jandi]

The time travel was really, really dumb and extremely immersion breaking for me. They should have never included such a ridiculous element in the game if they weren't going to put more writing focus on it.

 

I detest time travel plots because they negate any MEANING from the story in addition to allowing the writers to just say "lol tiem truffel!" and retcon whatever they want.

[Erstus]

Time travel is one of the most cheap narrative devices, thus the prize goes to Therinfall.

I must agree. I hate the concept of time travel in any genre.

Overall, I felt the Templar mission was far better. It had a darker atmosphere to it and the envy demon was great.

Just, keep Cullen and the Templars on lyrium. Otherwise they are no different then a common soldier

[Ferretinabun]

As an aside re. time travel:

 

I don't actually mind it when we jump forward and visit a possible future. So DA:I was fine by me.

 

It's only when we jump back that my brain starts to hurt.

[PillingPower]

Regardless of the time travel issues (I'm less bothered by it as a plot device than some), would people agree that the initial hook into the mission is far stronger for the Mages? This is extremely important because, once committed, there's no going back (except through an alternative playthrough). I think the hooks should have been more equal - my Inquisitor character would always opt to investigate the weirdness in Redcliffe. It was only player knowledge that prompted my curiosity to try the other path.

[azarhal]

I played through Champion of the Just and In Hushed Whisper twice each and I much preferred Champion of the Just. Calpernia is more interesting than Samson, Ser Barris is awesome, Lucius in Val-Royaux vs the one in Cassandra's personal quest makes more sense and it is devoid of nonsense*.

 

As for plot hooks, you can go to Redcliff, see the craziness going around and decide that getting the Templars is a good idea to root out the Venatori instead of going investigate all by yourself.

 

* Companions being feed Red Lyrium for over a year not turning crazy like everyone else or even them being alive that long when everyone else associated to the Inquisition was killed, Fiona in Val-Royaux vs her forgetting everything while you haven't in Redcliff, etc.

[Jellyfish Opera]

Personally I always pick mages, it just made more sense to me. Also I LOVE Samson as a villain and while a lot of people will disagree and say Cap' is a much better antagonist, I believe Samson has so much more going on especially if you played DA2. Samson kinda like the darkside of Cullen just like how the Inquisitor in a weird way could be the other side of the coin to Cory'. Aside from who you get as a antagonist, and while yes, the time travel bit is a tad weird, though I certainly don't mind it, kinda puts more emphasis on "Yes we need to win this war otherwise this is the fate of Thedas" I think the game kinda wants you to pursue the interest of the mages as they are just this big elephant in the room in any situation since DA: Origins. 

 

[Ranadiel Marius]

The mages have a more clear threat, but finding out about the threat requires you to trust that a Magister is not trying to shank you in a church and/or you to believe that allying with a rebellion that is about to be put down by an army is a good idea. If you reach the end of the chain, then mages seem more pressing, but I don't think reaching the end of the chain makes sense. Really we should have had a chance to stab Alexius as soon as he revealed he had taken over Redcliffe from Fereldan hands.

As for the time travel, I have no problem with it in fiction if handled well, but In Hushed Whispers doesn't. Based on how events play out post return, Alexius should have been dead in the future since the army took the castle with no trouble the moment we return. And don't get me started on the memory thing with Fiona that was clearly supposed to be caused by time travel but makes no sense.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I'd go with the Templar one.

 

I'm pro-mage and choose the mage one in my main play through but the atmosphere and creepy feeling in the Templar mission is just better. You actually get to explore the place before everything goes wrong .

 

in the mage one you you go in with the upper hand and get thrown straight in the action.

 

On the other hand, you have no idea what's going to happen in the Templar one. You just feel more vulnerable because something is wrong but you don't know what.

 

Also time travel sucks and I'm scared Bioware will use it in DA4-5 to retcon something.

[Bleachrude]

Time travel is a valid story element to use...That doesn't change the fact that I simply go "oh great...time travel".

[Aulis Vaara]

Time travel is one of the most cheap narrative devices, thus the prize goes to Therinfall.

I LOVE timetravel stories, but a single episode almost never does it justice. If you have timetravel, you need to have the whole plot revolve around it and the consequences of its existence. You can't just have it for one mission, it's just too consequential a power for that. Once it exists, everything changes.

Narratively it also creates the promise of more timetravel and the opportunity to find out what really happened in history, but we were never given that option which made it disappointing beyond just not being a very good story by itself.

[Ferretinabun]

 would people agree that the initial hook into the mission is far stronger for the Mages?

 

Only to a point.

 

In my current PT, I paid particular attention to this, and found that the scene in Val Royaeux directs you towards the templars right up until Fiona shows up and gives you her invitation. At that moment I think the scales are fairly even - find out what's going on at Therinfall, or accept Fiona's invitation.

 

If you do go to Redcliffe, you initially get the scene with Alexius where Fiona denies having invited you and you find that the Redcliffe mages have joined with the Venatori. That gives you more than reason enough to turn tail and run to the templars. The only hook now is Alexius' son (can't remember his name)'s note telling you to go to the chantry. And if you do that, the only reason to stay is if you trust Dorian.

 

There are fairly logical RP reasons to back out of the mage storyline at various points. But I do agree that the only thing really driving you towards Therinfall is a rather nebulous "Hmm, things seem off with the templars (and Lord Seeker Lucius). Maybe we should see what's up with them" instead of a constant stream of personal invitations.

[Jandi]

Regardless of the time travel issues (I'm less bothered by it as a plot device than some), would people agree that the initial hook into the mission is far stronger for the Mages? This is extremely important because, once committed, there's no going back (except through an alternative playthrough). I think the hooks should have been more equal - my Inquisitor character would always opt to investigate the weirdness in Redcliffe. It was only player knowledge that prompted my curiosity to try the other path.

 

Yes, I personally never saw a *reason* to go after the Templars, none. When you meet them, even a pro-templar inquisitor would go "you want to follow *that* guy? Ok... have fun".

 

The templars are a lost cause in my mind regardless of circumstance. There's only so far "I WAS FOLLOWING ORDERS!" goes. It's the same with the Wardens. Eff em both.

[thats1evildude]

OBJECTION! If you never go to Redclffe until after Champions of the Just, you never hear about Alexius' time travel hijnks.

Also, fantasy time travel is for sheep molesters.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

While Leliana is badass in the dark future of the mage plotline, the Templar plotline just seems more epic battling the envy demon and having the Templars bow to your awesomeness. Plus, the whole Mage plotline amounts to a puff of smoke and a twirl from what your party and Alexius and Felix witness in the throne room.

[Amne YA]

going to a trap set by a magister that control time magic and loose  until dorian  save the world and bring you back  to present  or go fight a demon  with the templars kick his ass and comeback with an army  ? 
 put  your winner  up your  butt . i'm not going   to  a trap !   templar aaaaaaaaall the way