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Mages/Redcliffe plot vs Templar/Therinfal


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#51
Ashagar

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You do realize children are confirmed to be with the mages or are you okay with child slavery and murder because you hate mages?

 

Childern that are never seen much like the templar trainees who often start out as young if not younger then mages apprentices Both sides have vulenerable members who don't get shown and both sides have people who are good and people who aren't. Siding with one side doesn't mean you hate the other side.

 

As a side note I prefer Champions of the Just, because I rather like the idea of the tale as well as thinking it has stronger characters, a better opponent and a better dragon for Corypheus while giving insight into both the dragon and the villain.


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#52
renfrees

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It only as cheap as how you use it. They way it's used in dai is far from cheap. No bigger and deeper motivation can an Inquisitor have then seeing the world in ruin and coming back to a world that it can still happen.

Yes, it is. Nothing actually happens - you walk in, arrest Alexius for... ugh, what exactly - occupation of Redcliffe? You cannot reasonably charge him for the dark future, because surprise surprise - it's never happen.



#53
Absafraginlootly

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I thought I’d share my thoughts on the Mage/Redcliffe vs Templar/Therinfal plot threads, though I realise this is ground that has been gone over many times before.

 

Strongest Plot hook

 

The main reason to investigate Therinfal is Cassandra noting the High Seeker is acting out of character. At Redcliffe, however, the Inquisitor is presented with strange goings on first hand through Fiona’s odd reactions, and a stern warning from Dorian of nefarious goings-on.

 

Winner: Mages/Redcliffe

 

 

I agree with this one, I have to not got to redcliffe in order to go to Therinfal, I can't justify leaving a situation where I know somethings wrong to visit one where everything could be fine.

 

 

Mission immersion

 

Each mission is interesting and presents different challenges – mechanically the preference is a fairly arbitrary one. Certainly Therinfal presents a good introduction to Cole, who otherwise is just dropped in the lap of the Inquisitor. Redcliffe of course strengthens the relationship with Dorian, but at least he still has some significant interaction with the Inquisitor if the Templar path is chosen.

Both missions give glimpses of the consequences of a Corypheus victory, the Mage path more literally, of course.

I can’t really choose much between them, but I did find the time travel option marginally more fulfilling because of the shock value.

 

Winner: Mages/Redcliffe (marginal)

 

Disargee with this one, I think Therinfal wins. Demons screwing with your mind is established lore but we've never gotten a really good depiction of it before now, the envy demon was great. Whereas time travel was unprecedented, more out of place, less immersive.

 

 

Subsequent Missions

 

Calpernia is a better, deeper nemesis figure I think, but Samson’s mission and the interaction with Cullen is stronger. A surviving Ser Barris can of course offer war table missions (unless they are bugged and never appear, as was my fate) and be promoted to titular Grandmaster.

 

Winner: Draw

 

I agree about calpernia being the better nemesis, I find her quest and Temple of Mythal interactions far better and am therefore inclined to give this one to therinfal too.

 

 

Subsequent plot:

 

Having the Templars join up, through conscription or otherwise, explains far better the military rise of the Inquisition. However, I’d also say that the shock value of an army of corrupted Templars is also more powerful to view outside Haven, rather than some Venatori and Fiona's rebels.

It’s only a small thing but the Templar route also helps explain better the banner in the corridor outside the Inquisitior’s bedroom!

 

Winner: Templar/Therinfal

 

Corrupted templars do come off as a bigger threat to me than some rebellious mages joining the venatori. Combined this with the fact that the College of Enchanters seems to coexists with the Circle of Magi no matter what makes me favour Mages/Redcliffe for this one.

 

Which leaves them at a draw for me, subjective though this may be.



#54
thats1evildude

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You do realize children are confirmed to be with the mages or are you okay with child slavery and murder because you hate mages?

 

Good point. Maybe you should tell that to Fiona, the one who sold them into slavery in the first place. :lol:


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#55
guntar74

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I always go templars. I mean it lets me get Fiona out of the way...that's a plus for everybody. The new circles or college will be free of her excellent leadership skills!!

#56
Ryzaki

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Implying all mages were made looking like heroes and all Templars looking like villains  :rolleyes:

 

**** it's a damn mage trying to blow up the world. TWICE.



#57
Jandi

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**** it's a damn mage trying to blow up the world. TWICE.

 

Corypuss was a mage too.

 

Very hero, so best.



#58
Almostfaceman

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In my opinion...

 

The Templars are without a doubt the biggest waste of storytelling in the DA universe. They're set up to be these soldiers specializing in keeping mages in check... so what do you see them do all the time? Swing their swords around. 

 

Bioware could have made up an order that more demonstrably countered magic. Special outfits or equipment... special moves... "magic absorbing" animations... anything. Instead they're just another guy in a suit of armor, swinging a sword. Same goes for the Seekers. We never see them do anything, to anybody, except yell at a dwarf. 

 

Plus, the Templars are just broody brooders. Hovering over mages with the giant "Don't" hammer and the finger-wagging. 

 

So much wasted potential from a pretty good idea. 

 

So, I've never been interested in them. Thus, it was hard to get interested in them as a choice in Inquisition. 

 

It was also very disappointing that both the mages and the Templars have the exact same visuals for helping the Inquisitor close the breach. Have the mages do the wavey hand thingy they were doing in Origins and the Templars slamming their swords into the ground, Bioware. I mean... c'mon. Loved the game, bought all the DLC... but yeah that was weaksauce. Plus now the Templars suddenly have the ability to project anti-magic forces into a mage? What? Space magic. 



#59
thats1evildude

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Technically, the Templars use their power to weaken the Breach sufficiently so that the Inquisitor can close it.



#60
Ashagar

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Which honesly makes more sense then pouring more magic into a unknown magic(the anchor) in the hopes works and doesn't blow up.


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#61
Almostfaceman

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Which honesly makes more sense then pouring more magic into a unknown magic(the anchor) in the hopes works and doesn't blow up.

 

Not really, since the Templars have no experience in fine-tune control of magic and mages do. They've spent years learning how to control magic. The Templars have spent years learning how to swing swords, apparently. 

 

If the Templars could set up some kind of magic dampening field, why don't they do so in, say, the Rite of Annulment? Nope, they just charge at mages (see Kirkwall) swinging their swords, instead of bothering to kill all the magic in the area. 

 

Like I said. Space magic. 


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#62
leaguer of one

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Yes, it is. Nothing actually happens - you walk in, arrest Alexius for... ugh, what exactly - occupation of Redcliffe? You cannot reasonably charge him for the dark future, because surprise surprise - it's never happen.

No it's not. And you arrest him for attempt to stop the investigation of the inquisition and association with the people who had a hand in the conclave incident.



#63
Ashagar

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Not really, since the Templars have no experience in fine-tune control of magic and mages do. They've spent years learning how to control magic. The Templars have spent years learning how to swing swords, apparently. 

 

If the Templars could set up some kind of magic dampening field, why don't they do so in, say, the Rite of Annulment? Nope, they just charge at mages (see Kirkwall) swinging their swords, instead of bothering to kill all the magic in the area. 

 

Like I said. Space magic. 

 

Why do you think the trained mages can't kill them all like they could to ordinary mortals? Just because you aren't geting a light show doesn't mean the templars aren't doing anything, they wouldn't get close enough to stab someone wtih a sword if they weren't actively focusing surpressing magic.



#64
leaguer of one

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Why do you think the trained mages can't kill them all like they could to ordinary mortals? Just because you aren't geting a light show doesn't mean the templars aren't doing anything, they wouldn't get close enough to stab someone wtih a sword if they weren't actively focusing surpressing magic.

Magic suppression works like a burst, not a wall. They can only miss fire magic before it hit not after it's shot.



#65
Almostfaceman

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Why do you think the trained mages can't kill them all like they could to ordinary mortals? Just because you aren't geting a light show doesn't mean the templars aren't doing anything, they wouldn't get close enough to stab someone wtih a sword if they weren't actively focusing surpressing magic.

 

What does that have to do with my point? 



#66
BraveVesperia

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I prefer Champions of the Just. Imo:

 

-Calpernia is much better than Sampson, including her reasons for helping Corypheus and I really enjoy her sidequests. Temple of Dumat in particular is much more sinister and you can learn more about Corypheus. Makes him a little more two-dimensional.

 

-Ser Barris is great. Whether the templars are conscripted or allied, I feel like under his leadership, they could be great. Under Fiona's leadership with the mages, I'm not as positive. Plus, he gets lots of war table missions (when not bugged...) whereas she stands around in the library.

 

-Dorian turning up to warn us about Venatori at Haven makes sense. Cole turning up to talk about templars makes less sense. 

 

-I love Cole's introduction in CotJ, it sets up his character marvellously. Dorian has a great role in IHW too, but I don't feel like his character requires that extra mile to understand him and his abilities. It also provides much more reason to trust Cole despite the "demon!" reactions.

 

-Our companions are absent for most of IHW (future versions don't count, since they're gone by the end). Talking to the lyrium-corrupted versions was interesting, but it adds little/nothing to the Inquisitor's personal development with the present-versions.

 

-The threat in CotJ feels more immediate to me, whereas the time travel thing... Sure the bad future is pretty friggin' bad, but I always get a feeling of 'well there's time to stop it'. After all, it's not 10 minutes into the future, it's a year. The amulet thing also bugs me. I don't know why really.

 

-I feel like the Inquisition gaining respect and military might makes more sense with the templars, and I don't think it works as well with the mages. A lot of people are wary of them, how are the nobility/general public not having serious issues with the idea of the Inquisition being full of mages?

 

I do enjoy IHW, just not nearly as much. I also think there's plenty of possible roleplay reasons to ditch the mages in favour of templars. It all depends on your character.



#67
Vargeisa

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It would have been nice if Cassandra's Seekers mission would have opened up after visiting Val Royeaux.

(With a little bit of rewriting) it would have been a good excuse to go seek out the templars.



#68
Barquiel

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I am sure the "Champions" is not a bad mission, but I don't think I can bring myself to ever side with the templars. I'd feel guilty about abandoning the mages to their fate...and I really can't say the same about the templars in Therinfal Redoubt. The "innocent" templars have already left the order at that point or didn't follow Lucius.

#69
GoldenGail3

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Oh. Theirnfall Redoudt. The mages were a pain, and the Templars were much, much easier to maintain after being Coryphus, but a lot of mine (worlds) I did were Allied Mages (mostly to get to romances.. Such as Solas and Dorian) while my guy fullied allied with the Templars, I loved the quest. It was the type of thing I'd play mutilply times and not get tired of it.

#70
Lumix19

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Childern that are never seen much like the templar trainees who often start out as young if not younger then mages apprentices Both sides have vulenerable members who don't get shown and both sides have people who are good and people who aren't. Siding with one side doesn't mean you hate the other side.

 

As a side note I prefer Champions of the Just, because I rather like the idea of the tale as well as thinking it has stronger characters, a better opponent and a better dragon for Corypheus while giving insight into both the dragon and the villain.

I'm fairly certain Templar trainees are sent to the Chantry for education and training until they're old enough to join the Templars fully. Recall Alistair? He was still in the monastery at the age of 19. The Circle has no choice, mages are taken there as soon as they are found and that can be at the age of 7 like Minaeve. They aren't going to leave apprentices just sitting around.

 

Good point. Maybe you should tell that to Fiona, the one who sold them into slavery in the first place. :lol:

I'd rather children be sold into slavery for 10 years then brutally murdered, don't know about you.



#71
solomon.kosin

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I like Templar quest just because there is no so much red lirium in the world (crestwood as an example) and cause calpernia is an awesome character. It is also easier to fight venatori rather than those tanky templars

But i hate to think that i have to kill poor Alistair's mother if i side with templars and i'm a very pro-free-mage person (hey to Anders) so i vote for Redcliff and chose mages as canon.

#72
Xcorpyo

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Good point. Maybe you should tell that to Fiona, the one who sold them into slavery in the first place. :lol:

 

Fiona agreed to 10 years of service in order for her people to become free citizens of the Imperium,a country where mages aren’t looked at as abominations just for the bad luck of being born different , just as Hawke and his family did one year in order for his family to be allowed inside Kirkwall. But maybe I don't really know what slavery is, let me check for a second:

 

 

slavery

/ˈsleɪvərɪ/

noun

1.the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty,and fortune

2.the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work

3.the condition of being subject to some influence or habit

4.work done in harsh conditions for low pay

 

Let’s see how the Cirlce/Chantry treats mages:

-any child found with magic is ripped from his world/life/family and imprisoned in a building, some for the rest of their natural lives. Well, those who kiss ass(Whynne), spread their legs(Vivienne) or are rich or have powerful relatives(Bethany Hawke and others) might see their family(if the family chooses to visit, they live in a prison after all) or daylight from time to time, but very few.

-the templars have power of life and death over them, and the ones in charge often side with the templars in any issue between them, even if the mages are in the right.

-if they do something bad the templars can choose to turn their brain into mush, making them emotionless slaves.

-and talking about emotionless slaves: the tranquil are still under chantry/templar control, although they can’t do magic anymore, the only reason the templars have to keep mages locked up. Why? Money, of course, since the tranquil can create enchanted items, them being the biggest earners the Chantry/templar order has. It’s strange that there never is a shortage of tranquil to do their work for no pay and since they are brain dead, they have no say in what the templars do to them.

-if a Circle mage has a child, said child is forcefully taken away and given to the chantry, where he can either become a big and strong templar raised from birth to hate his parents, or another slave if he shows signs of magic.

-in Kirkwall the things get so bad, more than half the mage deaths are suicides(we find that out from conversation with Anders), and you can’t say that it’s only an isolated incident, since the mage torture goes on for almost a decade, enough time for the higher ups to find out about it and change something if they cared to, which they don’t. Why? Because Meredith is supplying the Chantry and the order with a huge numbers of Tranquil, which in turn makes them very very very rich.

And let’s not forget that the templars are people  who willingly choose to become drug addicts, to the point where they can’t even function in society. But it’s ok to have an order of mage hating drug addicts being the sole caregivers of an entire prison filled with people that can channel, many of them children that can’t even defend themselves, not that the grown-ups have any chance of themselves either if the templars decide to do whatever they like to them.

 

And let’s not forget how the game decides to make us hate mages in DA2. Anders, a man that spends his entire adult life fighting for mage’s rights, protecting good mages for prosecution, fighting the blight  or healing the poor for free decides that he has to blow up a church filled with innocent people.

Honestly, if the game decided to make him an evil terrorist out of the blue, he could at least blew up Meredith or the templar barracks. But no, because the plot demands it that the mages have to do something terrible for no reason other than to imprint in your subconscious the fact that all mages are evil, even the ones that were until that point a good choice for sainthood, and they all need to die or be kept as slaves. Like the 500 blood mages you had to kill  during the game even as a mage sympathizer weren’t enough. Honestly, it’s a miracle Meredith had some mages left to terrorize. 

 

Another point I have with the way the Chantry, and by extension the templars treat mages is that they never tried to come with a better solution. A way to cut them from the Fade, by ritual or enchanted item or whatever, or a more humane way to treat them even if they must be watched. But fixing the issue with the possession will mean that they will lose the tranquil and their main source of income, so slavery and torture it is.

 

Yes, the mages can be dangerous under severe circumstances, but since 800 years after the Circle was created the possession is still a problem, proves without a doubt that the Circle idea is broken.

They need to find a better way to do things.

 

And lastly, the biggest issue I have with the Cirlces of mages:

 

The Circle was created because some religious fanatics took the racist/mage hating rant in chant form of a girl born 1000 years ago that stated that magic is bad because the voices in her head told her so.

Not going to even touch on the possibility of Andraste being:

 

-tricked by a Fade demon;

 

-triched by a dreamer;

 

-tricked by Fen’harel; 

 

- tricked by  the soul of Dumat that Mythal placed in her

she is born in -203 Ancient, the same year the first Blight ended,

 she hears the word of the Maker, and Dumat might be the name the Tevinter gave to one the sleeping dragons(a form the Creators, the beings worshiped by the elves seem to have) that they found in the conquered elven temples, namely Elgar'nan, after they discovered that they can talk to them in the Fade and they can learn super awesome magic from them.

After all, they couldn’t keep the old names they had, it would have been too plebeian to  convert to the religion of the slaves they just conquered, so they chose to ignore reality and replace it with their own, names included.

Anyway, Maker is a synonym of Creator, and I’ll stop here on this line, it will take to long to list all similarities.

 

-tricked by the voice of Mythal she was hearing after she started wearing that nice  Horcrux of Mythal.

You know, this one. http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Andraste

That looks just like the crown Mythal is wearing since her retcon in Dragon Age 2, and I think I saw that crown somewhere else.

Oh yes, Meredith was wearing the same one during the last fight in DA2, and even before, can’t remember exactly.

What a coincidence that she was wearing the same crown years after Mythal arrived in Kirkwall on ‘business’.

Another coincidence is that both Meredith and Andraste thought they were hearing/doing the Maker’s work while wearing it.

And the biggest coincidence of them all: the actions of both Andraste and Meredith ended up in a holly war against mages, followed by the death of many and the complete enslavement of the rest.

But no, the biggest coincidence is this: the temple that housed the ashes of Andraste, the Bride of the Maker was build on top of an older temple dedicated to Mythal, the wife/mate/life partner of the first Creator, and one of the Creators in her own right.

Just a set of many unrelated coincidences, I’m sure.

 

-tricked by the voices of Dumat/Elgar’nan and Mythal combined. The last two theories are not mutually exclusive, they even make a better combined one.

1. Mythal has someone perform the famed ritual the year Dumat was killed.

2. Same year, Andraste is born.

3. She can hear voices from a deity called the Maker, blab la bla.

4. After a while, she begins to spend a lot of time in meditation, an act that is followed by any Seeker recruit, which can make possession very hard.

5. Seeing that Andraste has doubts about the voices she is hearing and fearing that she will discover the existence of the other soul inside her, Mythal gives her a part fo her soul as well, to make Andraste ever more umbalanced.

6. Since then, she also claims that she is also the Bride of the Maker, and we know that Mythal and Elgar’nan were to the elven pantheon the same as Zeus and Hera were  to the greek one.

6. Also, Andraste contacted a disease at an early age that made it impossible for her to have children. Then, out of the sudden, after she wears the Mythal crown(Mythal being the godess of motherhood and justice and love and whatever), she can procreate again, having several daughters that leave her side before her end.

7. Here my crackpot theory goes off the reservation. Since Andraste was born in Ferelden, maybe her daughters chose to hide there. And maybe some of the descendants of those daughters were vessels for the other god souls. And maybe some of those descendants were named Flemeth, Morrigan, Yavana, etc. That would be an awesome twist if it were true, since ‘Flemeth’ would theoretically be Morrigan’s ‘mother’, or at least her ancestor.

 

-ooor maybe Andraste was just insane. Just saying.

 

The final point is this: the Circle might be built on a lie.

The Circle is treating the mages as slaves(check any definition of the word you want and you’ll find that it matches the situation the mages are in to a T, and in some cases is even worse, because slavery is also accompanied by torture,  in it’s many forms).

 

The Circle doesn’t work, because even after centuries of existence, the magic is still a problem, and nobody is trying to fix the issue, namely the danger of possession, and settle for just limiting the end results. Because greed. And laziness. And a world with happy mages(or at least mages who make sane/logical decisions) would be a boring one for a video game.

 

 

But since the templar side has better characters and a cooler quest line, death and slavery to all mages.

 

But I think I should also add a line on topic. Mages. All the way. Every single time. Except that one time, but only for curiosity and didn’t even continued long after the breach sealing with templar help.

I like magic and hate drug addicts. Sue me.