60 réponses à ce sujet

[The_Prophet_of_Donk]

It was the **** back in the day...Me and my girlfriend still hum Runescape music to each other just for the nostalgia factor. But I witnessed it gradually lack behind. RPGs and other MMORPGs have evolved and evolved, and Runescape has either stayed put or even regressed (the microtransaction thing, for example). Not modernizing and hoping that the old dedicated fanbase will sustain the game is a fatal mistake, one that I don't wish Dragon Age to repeat because it's a hell of a story.

If BW pulls a SWTOR, I'm done with the series. I've been faithful through their changes, but will lose all my love for them if they develop this into a MMORPG.

Microtransactions aren't bad in the big picture, sometimes they are what helps sustain games and give companies the boost they need to make "The Next Big Thing" but it can also be detrimental! It's all how it's implemented.

Don't know if you play it, but ELO doesn't do too bad with Microtransactions

[Ellana of clan Lavellan]

 

 

This is going to be controversial but if you really want to see a game world brought to life, try the Witcher 3. It makes Skyrim's look like a joke.

For instance, the first time I entered Novigrad it was nigth, I encountered troupes singing and performing in the streets, some people dancing, others stumbling around in drunken stupor, some talking with prostitutes, decorations, etc.

During the day, you can find priests preaching, guard patrolling and everything else you'd expect.

 

As the game progresses, there are less festivals and more guards, more pyres burning non-humans. You really get the feeling the city is under matial law.

 

There are refugees camps, chekpoints, etc. I'm not one of those who will claim The Witch is God's gift to RPG fans but, as far as making a world come to life, it is what other games should aspire to.

 

 

Agreed. TW3 has the most immersive NPCs I've ever seen in a video game.

Also, I don't see how GTA has good NPC behaviour though, they just.... walk around 

 

The two worst RPG in a single post. That says a lot about schedules.
(On a side note, they are not RPG, they are action games)

[Estel Lavellan]

If BW pulls a SWTOR, I'm done with the series. I've been faithful through their changes, but will lose all my love for them if they develop this into a MMORPG.

Microtransactions aren't bad in the big picture, sometimes they are what helps sustain games and give companies the boost they need to make "The Next Big Thing" but it can also be detrimental! It's all how it's implemented.

Don't know if you play it, but ELO doesn't do too bad with Microtransactions

 

We're veering off topic here, but let's talk about it a little bit more. I think you'll have to look at present Runescape to understand the real worst thing about microtransactions. The idea is as you say, that microtransactions sustain the company's effort to 'do the next big thing', as it were - but inevitably companies get drunk on the idea that I can pull a couple swords and armors out of the main game and sell access to it for extra cash. It's like pushing past a point of no return - once companies start releasing minor microtransaction products, they discover that 'oh it's not so bad, we barely lost any players!' and some company executive would make 'the smart business decision' and start encouraging it, even mandating it. Then it grows, the microtransaction part gets bigger, and you know how the rest of the story goes. It's a slippery slope. Some companies, like Rockstar, never allow that idea to grow in their developers' minds, and look at how big a thing GTA is now. Then look at Assassin's Creed - once it started going for the money angle by churning out releases and doing microtransactions, look at how sudden Ubisoft and the AC franchise dropped in reputation. In short, never go for the short-route money angle. You're just luring the corrupt business executives into the fold...like Greed Demons.

[TevinterMagister]

While I wouldn't mind schedules and day/night cycles I don't feel DA:I needs it. Reason is the way I play Bethesda RPGs differently than I would a BioWare RPG, I don't like to compare them either. In Elder Scrolls I would make a character with a certain preference to adventuring and who and what he would interact with. Completly ignoring a huge portion of the games content and when I feel that character has done what he set out to do, I retire him for good. Like my Dawnguard Crusader whos main goal was to root out vampires in Skyrim, that gave me 40-50 hours of gameplay. My last DA:I character had 165 hours played doing everything.

 

When playing Skyrim I follow day/night cycles trying to find an inn before nightfall, renting a room and buying food and drink before retiring to bed, maybe talk to the inn patrons if I feel like it. Wake up and visit the market and unload some of my stuff I picked up from adventuring, maybe pick up a quest or two before heading out again. When I play DA:I the exploring and fighting is mostly about gaining more levels and loot/craft so I can handle the combat in the next part of the story better instead of doing my own thing like in ES or Fallout. Good thing I like the classes, combat and exploring what there is in DA.

 

I want BioWare to continue to make BioWare type games and Bethesda to do the same as I love them both. Afterall, Bethesda has over 20 years of experience of making the games they do, and simply adding a large open world doesn't make DA more like Skyrim and nor should they aspire to.

[myahele]

A day/night cycle would be nice. In either way, the less they take from Skyrim the better. While I like Inquisition, the reason why there's so many fetch quests and codex that explains so many plot points was because they took that from skyrim

[PIT_DEFENDER]

Yeah I keep saying that over and over again, they should just look at other games and learn, that immersion is really important for me, and they are actualy getting more and more plastic say for example the camera that doesnt zoom in close enough to let u feel like its u in that world not some character at the bottom of the screen like Diablo, and no cinematic cam in conversations also dosent help, same for SEARCH button with sound rather than just good old hold tab to lit up all **** reales when u stoped looking.

 

As to Skyrim refence, seriously dude your insulting Gothic Witcher and probably a few other series Expecialy gothic though I think these 15 year old games still have better 24/7 day cycle then any other game released since

[Dr. rotinaj]

 

 

This is going to be controversial but if you really want to see a game world brought to life, try the Witcher 3. It makes Skyrim's look like a joke.

For instance, the first time I entered Novigrad it was nigth, I encountered troupes singing and performing in the streets, some people dancing, others stumbling around in drunken stupor, some talking with prostitutes, decorations, etc.

During the day, you can find priests preaching, guard patrolling and everything else you'd expect.

 

As the game progresses, there are less festivals and more guards, more pyres burning non-humans. You really get the feeling the city is under matial law.

 

There are refugees camps, chekpoints, etc. I'm not one of those who will claim The Witch is God's gift to RPG fans but, as far as making a world come to life, it is what other games should aspire to.

 

 

A little OT:

 

It's sad that trolls have made "Witcher 3" a volatile buzzword on these forums. There are so many things that Witcher 3 did right and there is so much potential for constructive criticism and feedback when we compare it with DAI. Witcher 3 really set the bar for AAA RPGs in many areas, and it's the best game I've played in the past 5 years. I would love to see more civil "let's take x and y from Witcher but not z" discussions around here.

 

On topic:

 

I've loved every Elder Scrolls game since Morrowind, but I have to admit that IMO the less things taken from Skyrim, the better. DA and ES are different breeds of RPG. IMO focusing on the Skyrim-y stuff meant less focus (or the appearance of less focus) on the DA stuff in DAI, taking more from Skyrim could be more damaging than it is helpful. I'm prepared to eat my words if Andromeda changes my mind on the subject, but for now I think DA should look at its best parts before looking at Skyrim's best parts.

[kann.nix9mm]

What DA could learn from Skyrim is taking less from Skyrim. I mean really, were the uge areas really needed? Aside from that DAI and Skyrim are two way too different breeds of RPG. Please don't start mainstreaming it like with those shooters ...

[thats1evildude]

I actually don't care if the characters stand around or "do things," so long as they're available to talk to when I want to talk to them.

 

I hope I never see a day/night cycle in Dragon Age. I've never played a game where I felt it added greatly to the experience.

[PIT_DEFENDER]

 

I actually don't care if the characters stand around or "do things," so long as they're available to talk to when I want to talk to them.

 

I hope I never see a day/night cycle in Dragon Age. I've never played a game where I felt they added greatly to the experience.

Someone ban this man

[cindercatz]

I don't necessarily want a day-night cycle per se, or not exactly.. They tend to be too quick, you'd need the time skip thing and all that. I don't know that it really works for DA. I wasn't really that enamored with the static time in DA2, either. But I like how events determine time and weather more in DA:I.

 

Anyway, for me, it's more that the world should feel alive. Things should be going on around you, characters should alter their activities and interact with each other more. Witcher 3 did do a much better job of it, yes, but major npcs still stood around rooted to a spot when there wasn't some new sidequest involving them. They did a better job of showing progression over the course of the game though.

 

A lot of it is physicality. Take Assassin's Creed: Unity. It got a lot of things wrong, but it accomplished some very interesting things with the ambient activity in your environment. Randomly generated npcs will walk up and greet each other, stop and converse, physically interact. Men and women will lock arms and stroll in conversation. Also, there's just a lot of activity, and it's not such a visually confined space. It would've been good to see patrons entering and exiting shops in the Val R market for instance, or joining in with certain tavern songs, things like that.

 

I loved the tavern music in DA:I, and how the French versions played in Val R. Hope those continue forward.

[Erstus]

I saw Dragon Age and MMO mentioned in the same post. ...

I never want to see that again

[KotorEffect3]

Bioware games are not open world sandbox games like bethesda games are so a 24 hour cycle is not needed and not even beneficial to a bioware game.  Not saying companions should be in one place the whole time but it is nice knowing where they are when I feel like chatting.

[LOLandStuff]

For all their strolling and napping, you sure have the impression you keep meeting the same persons over and over again no matter how far you go.

[PIT_DEFENDER]

 

I saw Dragon Age and MMO mentioned in the same post. ...

I never want to see that again

 

But Dragon Age has many aspects of MMO, whats so surprising ? Not that I woulndt personaly cut them out of course.

 

And its not about day and night cycle(which makes game mroe interesting imo) its about the fact that for last 3 DA's all npc just stand there usualy doing nothing.

[AstraDrakkar]

OP you have a valid point. After playing DAI for year, I am for the most part done with it. Sure you can always start up a different kind of character and make different decisions but there is still a limit to it's replayability. On the other hand, there is Skyrim, a game I still play to this day. Yep, I was actually playing it an hour ago. Why, you ask? It's not because of the day/night cycle. I do enjoy that a lot though. It's because of the mods. I can add a few mods and practically make a completely new game out of it. I currently have 61 mods loaded into it. If you guys don't have "Officer Jenkins" as a follower or "Call Of Madness" in Skyrim, you don't know what you are missing! Bioware should really look into making their games mod friendly if they want true replayability. Easy access to console commands is also a necessity in my book.

 

Ever want a castle that will put Skyhold to shame? Load up Skyrim and add the mod "Sjel Blad Castle" OMG, it's AMAZING!

("Cheese For Everyone!")

[PIT_DEFENDER]

But then I ofent feel liek Bethesda just releases the game and then hopes for players to Mod it for them, and afterwads tries to steal from modding autors.

 

Though ofcourse Anit-Mod and overall Anti-Social EA Policy is bad, I dont understand why BW joined them.

[Nefla]

I agree OP, Bethesda worlds feel much more alive to me since the NPCs have their own lives and schedules and react to the things happening around them. In DA:I they were statues :/ another thing BioWare could learn from Skyrim (and The Witcher 3) is that persistent ambient music is a good thing . The near constant silence with only the sounds of my footsteps and the occasional bird made me crazy.

 

 

[TeffexPope]

The day/night cycle is actually pretty funny in Oblivion. Go to any Oblivion character's page at UESP, and you'll find ironic and sarcastic summaries of people's daily routines.

[cindercatz]

I think it's quiet to accommodate banter in the random open world space, which is sparse. They could just have the music contextually soften up as a banter's about to start, design the soundtrack around it.

[Jandi]

Agreed. TW3 has the most immersive NPCs I've ever seen in a video game.

Also, I don't see how GTA has good NPC behaviour though, they just.... walk around 

 

 

TW3 also the has the most immersive main character. The way Geralt reacts when he finally finds Ciri was such a realistic reaction that I was blown away. Everything from his face to body language was chilling.

[Klinker1234]

I've loved every Elder Scrolls game since Morrowind, but I have to admit that IMO the less things taken from Skyrim, the better. DA and ES are different breeds of RPG. IMO focusing on the Skyrim-y stuff meant less focus (or the appearance of less focus) on the DA stuff in DAI, taking more from Skyrim could be more damaging than it is helpful. I'm prepared to eat my words if Andromeda changes my mind on the subject, but for now I think DA should look at its best parts before looking at Skyrim's best parts.

 

I think leading up to DAI's release I think there was a dev interview, where they talked about taking inspiration from the open-world nature of Skyrim in designing DAI.

 

I agree OP, Bethesda worlds feel much more alive to me since the NPCs have their own lives and schedules and react to the things happening around them. In DA:I they were statues.

No NPCs don't react to anything in Skyrim. I can massacre all the guards in Whiterun, serve my time/pay my way out of trouble, and then buy stuff in the market. No chance in hell anyone would trade with the dragonborne in Whiterun, if she had committed a major massacre the week before.

Also killing Alduin/Harkon/Miraak is barely noticed by anyone in Skyrim, even plot important characters hardly notice/react to anything happing.

You would think that the NPCs would have some sort of celebration or at least shower the dragonborne in gold and titles, now that the world ending threat is dealt with, but no.

Also completing the Civil War questline hardly has any effect on the game world. Its been pointed out that before, that the dragonborne can join the Legion, unite Skyrim under the Empire and receive the title of Legate (general), only for the Imperial soldiers/guardsmen to go on to scoff at and even threaten the player. Even though the dragonborne at that point is top commander/officer in the Imperial Army.

You would think privates in the Imperial Army would try to avoid outright insulting and threatening a general.

In my opinion the NPCs in Skyrim are actually downright scary, not caring if their friends and fellows are slaughtered by the player or showing any emotional impact or reaction. Sure they might run and hide when the player is on a rampage, but after the player has served their time its back to business, buying all the random loot the player got from murdering their friends and family members.

 

Though its not Skyrims or Bethesdas fault per say. Its the limitations in game engine and development funds. Skyrims NPCs are drones and automatons, and whats worse its badly hidden. 

 

You could aim the same criticism at BW and Dragon Age, however by the nature of the series mostly linear design the developers are able to devote more time to the individual NPCs, thus making them more believable and enjoyable. I don't how many NPCs there are in DAO, DA2 or DAI but there are around 600 non-hostile (i.e. not hostile bandits/necromancers) in Skyrim. Guess how much development time they each got. Guess how interesting they each are.

 

Adding a day/night schedule does not an alive character make.

[TraiHarder]

I've never felt 24 hour schedules add to the game. Its not like they add realistic behaviour, they just mean that the guy trundles off at the sound of an imaginary bell, ignoring the customer that was about to try and buy from them.. In fact the accelerated time needed to make this sort of thing meaningful I find detracts from my sense of immersion.

Also, the cutscenes tend to rely on people being in a specific place.

 

I'm sorry what? A 24 hour day isn't realistic?

[PIT_DEFENDER]

 

I've never felt 24 hour schedules add to the game. Its not like they add realistic behaviour, they just mean that the guy trundles off at the sound of an imaginary bell, ignoring the customer that was about to try and buy from them.. In fact the accelerated time needed to make this sort of thing meaningful I find detracts from my sense of immersion.

Also, the cutscenes tend to rely on people being in a specific place.

Your an idiot.

[Nefla]

No NPCs don't react to anything in Skyrim. I can massacre all the guards in Whiterun, serve my time/pay my way out of trouble, and then buy stuff in the market. No chance in hell anyone would trade with the dragonborne in Whiterun, if she had committed a major massacre the week before.

Also killing Alduin/Harkon/Miraak is barely noticed by anyone in Skyrim, even plot important characters hardly notice/react to anything happing.

You would think that the NPCs would have some sort of celebration or at least shower the dragonborne in gold and titles, now that the world ending threat is dealt with, but no.

Also completing the Civil War questline hardly has any effect on the game world. Its been pointed out that before, that the dragonborne can join the Legion, unite Skyrim under the Empire and receive the title of Legate (general), only for the Imperial soldiers/guardsmen to go on to scoff at and even threaten the player. Even though the dragonborne at that point is top commander/officer in the Imperial Army.

You would think privates in the Imperial Army would try to avoid outright insulting and threatening a general.

In my opinion the NPCs in Skyrim are actually downright scary, not caring if their friends and fellows are slaughtered by the player or showing any emotional impact or reaction. Sure they might run and hide when the player is on a rampage, but after the player has served their time its back to business, buying all the random loot the player got from murdering their friends and family members.

 

Though its not Skyrims or Bethesdas fault per say. Its the limitations in game engine and development funds. Skyrims NPCs are drones and automatons, and whats worse its badly hidden. 

 

You could aim the same criticism at BW and Dragon Age, however by the nature of the series mostly linear design the developers are able to devote more time to the individual NPCs, thus making them more believable and enjoyable. I don't how many NPCs there are in DAO, DA2 or DAI but there are around 600 non-hostile (i.e. not hostile bandits/necromancers) in Skyrim. Guess how much development time they each got. Guess how interesting they each are.

 

Adding a day/night schedule does not an alive character make.

When you pull out a weapon, the NPCs comment on it, when you knock stuff over or bump into them they scold you, when you (or another NPC/monster)attack they defend themselves or run away, depending on the NPC, they walk around, stop and talk to each other, sleep at night, do random tasks that you'd expect people to do like eating or chopping wood. The DA:I NPCs don't move or do anything if there is danger or you jump on their tables or whatever, they're like cardboard cutouts and most of them you can't talk to at all. At least every NPC in Skyrim has something to say to you and many have quite a bit of unique dialogue and lore to talk about. I'd even take the guards with their reused lines (which is at least funny to me) over a non-interactive, non-moving, human shaped plank of wood NPC. I never said anything about your actions or choices having consequences in Skyrim, they should have had a bigger impact. I'm talking about basic actions and reactions that say "person" rather than "statue." I'm not asking for a living artificial intelligence for background NPCs, but a little goes a long way in giving an overall impression of life.

 

As for the NPCs getting individual attention and development in DA:I...I think you and I may have played different games because I saw DA:I as especially poor in the NPC-interaction department. The vast majority of NPCs in DA:I are non interactive and those that are, are simple, short, lack personality and even names. NPCs were done far better in BioWare's older games imo.