Wait. It's the GI. Why use a ULM? That makes no sense. GI ain't got no time to bother with "normal" cooldowns.
Why am I the first to notice this...?
You get a cookie.
Actually that is important since ULM will break the weight glitch for the SR HVB, which should also be equipped.
There are only three AR's that are arguably worth taking the scope on and they are the Argus, Valkyrie and Revenant. The Saber should nearly always have mag, extended barrel, and AP or Drill rounds. You can rarely go wrong in the AR class with that mod and ammo setup, although some are so wimpy Drill isn't a great idea, and the first three are relatively inaccurate relative to their other stats and want some accuracy on most classes.
There aren't hardly any builds that are good against bosses but not against mooks. This is because DPS is king, and if you can drop a target with 48,000 HP efficiently you can probably do the same to one with 1700 or so.
The reason the reverse isn't necessarily true is because low tier units do not take much damage to kill, and a low to moderate setup in terms of dps can still potentially one-shot mooks, or shoot-power mooks, or whatever.
There are only a couple of units where it is actually prudent to aim for the head with the Javelin GI. One of which it usually makes sense to stop in her tracks, so it is easy. Granted, it is slower even if you don't miss compared to several other GI setups.
True, but DPS is a theoretical number, while actual damage is affected by player skill, weapon accuracy, range, and shield gate mechanics. Accuracy and especially shield gate are typically not a concern with boss enemies. Granted, most high DPS builds will mow down mooks pretty effectively, but there are a few that can be significantly less effective against mooks, relatively speaking.
True, but DPS is a theoretical number, while actual damage is affected by player skill, weapon accuracy, range, and shield gate mechanics. Accuracy and especially shield gate are typically not a concern with boss enemies. Granted, most high DPS builds will mow down mooks pretty effectively, but there are a few that can be significantly less effective against mooks, relatively speaking.
DPS is just damage per second. I would agree with the idea that paper-dps or theorycrafted numbers are theoretical, but of course there would still be practical dps for damage on targets. Perhaps player skill has something to do with the difference between those two numbers, but for any given player I doubt that a relative hierarchy of builds actually changes much.
With respect to the matter at hand, I guess it depends on the difference between "aren't hardly any" and "a few." If someone could list even 5 that would be an accomplishment, and most likely I bet it would be a stretch to consider them poor against mooks. I have not seen one setup listed in this thread yet that I would agree meets the definition.
DPS is just damage per second. I would agree with the idea that paper-dps or theorycrafted numbers are theoretical, but of course there would still be practical dps for damage on targets. Perhaps player skill has something to do with the difference between those two numbers, but for any given player I doubt that a relative hierarchy of builds actually changes much.
With respect to the matter at hand, I guess it depends on the difference between "aren't hardly any" and "a few." If someone could list even 5 that would be an accomplishment, and most likely I bet it would be a stretch to consider them poor against mooks. I have not seen one setup listed in this thread yet that I would agree meets the definition.
Really? Huntress sucks against mooks, so much wasted damage, and destroys bosses.
DPS is just damage per second. I would agree with the idea that paper-dps or theorycrafted numbers are theoretical, but of course there would still be practical dps for damage on targets. Perhaps player skill has something to do with the difference between those two numbers, but for any given player I doubt that a relative hierarchy of builds actually changes much.
With respect to the matter at hand, I guess it depends on the difference between "aren't hardly any" and "a few." If someone could list even 5 that would be an accomplishment, and most likely I bet it would be a stretch to consider them poor against mooks. I have not seen one setup listed in this thread yet that I would agree meets the definition.
I agree - but it also depends on the meaning of "poor." No build that can tear down bosses quickly is going to be as bad against mooks as the best build centered around Shuriken weapon damage. But there may be builds that have high boss DPS that can't take down mooks as effectively as another build that may have half the boss DPS, but is built around taking advantage of things like accuracy, stability, shield gate mechanics, headshots, etc.
Huntress, Valkyrie with something like the Raider, Claymore, etc., GI, weapons/PPR build Prollector all come to mind. Anything that specializes more in single target DPS, especially with some kind of anti-armor (since all bosses have armor) or debuff power, would seem to qualify.
Really? Huntress sucks against mooks, so much wasted damage, and destroys bosses.
Answer a couple questions. First off, what is this wasted damage against mooks? Secondly, how does the Huntress compare in boss damage relative to every single other infiltrator?
I agree - but it also depends on the meaning of "poor." No build that can tear down bosses quickly is going to be as bad against mooks as the best build centered around Shuriken weapon damage. But there may be builds that have high boss DPS that can't take down mooks as effectively as another build that may have half the boss DPS, but is built around taking advantage of things like accuracy, stability, shield gate mechanics, headshots, etc.
I agree it hinges on what "poor" is. As far as builds, I seriously doubt there is something like two builds where A has twice as much boss DPS as B, but is worse against mooks. There may not really be a concrete example in game except for some sort of oddball build, which I can't think of offhand.
I also don't think shieldgate is going to make much of a difference here either. It is rendered meaningless by many weapons, and even ammos. Someone might be tempted to claim Javelin GI w/ WA is a better boss killer than Phasic and as a result loses against many mooks, but it does not work out that way in the game where shots to kill nearly all the bosses are identical.
Weapons are going to play some role in this, but frankly most of the great DPS guns that are good against bosses are good against mooks. Where I believe people can find the most stretch for this weak against mooks thing will be with respect to accuracy since you cannot easily boost this on most characters. So...
Huntress, Valkyrie with something like the Raider, Claymore, etc., GI, weapons/PPR build Prollector all come to mind. Anything that specializes more in single target DPS, especially with some kind of anti-armor (since all bosses have armor) or debuff power, would seem to qualify.
Raider is probably the closest thing to a weapon that is better against bosses than mooks on most characters. Closest of course, not that it isn't still good against mooks if you use it within its performance envelope. Granted, the effective range against bosses is slightly further, but compare bonus damage area size on bosses to that of the standard mook and they aren't hugely different.
Huntress and Valkyrie both can get relatively frequent BE's, and weapon choice may affect the frequency but that doesn't cut into boss DPS any less than mook DPS given the multipliers.
PPR is like Typhoon in that it may require adaptation of playstyle, but given that both will mow down groups of mooks at a time, it is hard to say they are better against bosses.
GI with anything will kill mooks rapidly. ACA will always have two powers that are good against mooks.
Tac-Cloak->Dark Channel.... at which point, you then have to either wait out Dark Channel, or start detonating with warp, at which point, you're killing mooks at bosses at pretty much the same speed, since after the first BE, the spawn will be split, and no longer hit multiple targets, so you have to re-start the cycle again and again. It's a MUCH more effective strategy against bosses than mooks, imho.
Or, you can let Dark Channel do it's thing with Tac-Cloak->Dark Channel on Boss, then go Warp->Shoot mooks whilst you wait for the boss to die. But pretty much any class can just shoot mooks all day.
I honestly feel like the Huntress just can't reach its potential against Mooks, that she dishes out higher DPS vs Bosses. It's not that she is "bad" against mooks, more like "average" against mooks, and "great" against bosses.
Compared to other Infiltrators, I would say most other infiltrators are absurdly good against mooks, and usually just good against bosses. TGI, AIU, and GI can all wipe out hordes of mooks (Usually in a single cloak cycle), and Sniper Infiltrators are only limited by clip size (Phasics or anti-shield powers usually nullify Shield Gate problems) in the number of mooks killable per cloak cycle. However, boss units generally have enough Armour+Shields/Barriers to require multiple cloak cycles.
Again, not saying any of these are "bad" at anything, just talking about how they fare relative to A) Themselves (TTK on Boss and TTK vs mooks) and B ) Other classes (IE: Huntress' cloaked DC is absurd, and Warp DOT makes it even moreso, whilst a GI will likely one-shot 3-6 mooks per cycle, depending on gun)
I agree it hinges on what "poor" is. As far as builds, I seriously doubt there is something like two builds where A has twice as much boss DPS as B, but is worse against mooks. There may not really be a concrete example in game except for some sort of oddball build, which I can't think of offhand.
I also don't think shieldgate is going to make much of a difference here either. It is rendered meaningless by many weapons, and even ammos. Someone might be tempted to claim Javelin GI w/ WA is a better boss killer than Phasic and as a result loses against many mooks, but it does not work out that way in the game where shots to kill nearly all the bosses are identical.
Weapons are going to play some role in this, but frankly most of the great DPS guns that are good against bosses are good against mooks. Where I believe people can find the most stretch for this weak against mooks thing will be with respect to accuracy since you cannot easily boost this on most characters. So...
Something like the Javelin with Warp/AP ammo will kill bosses quickly but are gawd-awful against mooks (which is why pretty much nobody used the Javelin/Widow on anyone but the SI until Phasic Ammo was introduced). I'm absolutely certain you could construct a number of headshot builds (including headshot consumables/gear and Disruptor Ammo) that would mow down mooks significantly better/faster than that, with half the armor DPS. In particular, the Suppressor with Cranial Trauma mod would be a prime candidate, if you want to get extreme.
Huntress/wraith/WA/Power build...
TC+DC+shoot+Warp on bosses
TC+DC+shoot ---> TC+warp/shoot on minions
or let the DC do it's thing and warp+shot everything else.
Also the sturdy acolyte+Geth flamer never gets old and it is pretty effective... (at short range)
You get a cookie.
Actually that is important since ULM will break the weight glitch for the SR HVB, which should also be equipped.
Nonono. We're talking about Infiltrators and how they can carry whatever the hell they want and cooldowns are always at the base/minimum time... If played right. A Jav/Crusader combo will still have basically the same base cooldown as an Infiltrator with just a Hurricane, in regards to Cloak... which is all that matters. :-)
Also, I don't like cookies. I prefer steak...
Tac-Cloak->Dark Channel.... at which point, you then have to either wait out Dark Channel, or start detonating with warp, at which point, you're killing mooks at bosses at pretty much the same speed, since after the first BE, the spawn will be split, and no longer hit multiple targets, so you have to re-start the cycle again and again. It's a MUCH more effective strategy against bosses than mooks, imho.
Huntress can equip a weapon though, which is what she can use against mooks who aren't grouped. But in any case, she is never going to kill a boss faster or at a similar time to a mook really. DC dot on a boss will indeed do more damage per second on armor or barrier than it would on health, but even if it is ticking 3x faster on those defense layers, those layers are much greater than 3x the hp of mook health. Probably more likely for mooks to group throughout the match than bosses, given the relative number.
Something like the Javelin with Warp/AP ammo will kill bosses quickly but are gawd-awful against mooks (which is why pretty much nobody used the Javelin/Widow on anyone but the SI until Phasic Ammo was introduced). I'm absolutely certain you could construct a number of headshot builds (including headshot consumables/gear and Disruptor Ammo) that would mow down mooks significantly better/faster than that, with half the armor DPS. In particular, the Suppressor with Cranial Trauma mod would be a prime candidate, if you want to get extreme.
Well the thing is that armor DPS isn't necessarily the same as boss kill speed, which is what I was getting at with the comparison between WA and Phasic to begin with since all boss units are a combination of shields/barriers with armor. To get to a setup that might be worse against mooks than bosses you have to make strange choices that don't usually actually come close to maxing your boss damage. Of course Javelin w/ WA on a GI still will one-shot most mooks on Platinum setup correctly, but it requires a cloaked headshot. So really it depends on how you weight mook killing relative to boss killing, what wave you are on, and how you select targets. Erasing a mook every few seconds vs taking multiple shots to kill a boss. Where is the tipping point in the comparison?
I might have agreed that the single shot snipers were much better against bosses in the olden days, but the ammo is different now, and shieldgate has been dropped twice.
On a GI the build isn't going to have as radical an effect as weapon and ammo choice, so you could probably ignore it. I suppose the extreme ends of the spectrum might be very well be Suppressor v Javelin. Of course when you look at the numbers you need 3 cloaked headshots for a Centurion, Dragoon or Phantom (w/o DR). It's 4 for a Pyro and 5 for a Possessed Captain. Hope the 15% accuracy boost is enough to shrink the crosshairs and land the hits. For most of the other infiltrators, I doubt Suppressor gives much of an advantage to the Javelin given lack of accuracy boost. Of course this setup is so crappy against bosses it isn't funny (112 shots to kill Platinum Atlas after .2 debuff).
Nonono. We're talking about Infiltrators and how they can carry whatever the hell they want and cooldowns are always at the base/minimum time... If played right. A Jav/Crusader combo will still have basically the same base cooldown as an Infiltrator with just a Hurricane, in regards to Cloak... which is all that matters. :-)
You can't actually get minimum cd since cloak mandates a minimum duration that is non-zero. What is interesting is that Jav HVB - Hurricane no ULM is -45% PRS actual (glitched), and Javelin HVB - Hurricane ULM is -55%.
You can't actually get minimum cd since cloak mandates a minimum duration that is non-zero. What is interesting is that Jav HVB - Hurricane no ULM is -45% PRS actual (glitched), and Javelin HVB - Hurricane ULM is -55%.
Minimum duration is around 3 seconds... Is it not? Glitched weight, or unglitched... Still a minimum of 3 seconds, or close. Just saying ULM is useless on him. Unless someone specc'ed out of Cloak, but then that person should probably go find something more constructive to do...
A Jav/Crusader combo will still have basically the same base cooldown as an Infiltrator with just a Hurricane, in regards to Cloak... which is all that matters. :-)
Until you play offhost, your cloak gets glitched and you have to deal with a 15+ second cooldown.
Minimum duration is around 3 seconds... Is it not? Glitched weight, or unglitched... Still a minimum of 3 seconds, or close. Just saying ULM is useless on him. Unless someone specc'ed out of Cloak, but then that person should probably go find something more constructive to do...
"Minimum cooldown" is 3s. That is what you get if you could cancel cloak at 0s of duration. The minimum time before cancel is 1s though. Removal delay is 1.5 seconds for the damage bonus. To test this you can cloak and immediately break with a shot. Note that the cooldown does not actually start right away because of the min time before cancel.
Wait. It's the GI. Why use a ULM? That makes no sense. GI ain't got no time to bother with "normal" cooldowns.
Why am I the first to notice this...?
My bad, good catch. I always forget about tac clock cd (and HVB) bug.
Generally speaking, I thought the argument was more on the relative side.
Like, is there a setup that will do better against bosses than it will do against mooks? And the answer is yes, there are several. Doesn't mean it's gonna be bad against mooks, of course.
Compared to other Infiltrators, I would say most other infiltrators are absurdly good against mooks, and usually just good against bosses. TGI, AIU, and GI can all wipe out hordes of mooks (Usually in a single cloak cycle), and Sniper Infiltrators are only limited by clip size (Phasics or anti-shield powers usually nullify Shield Gate problems) in the number of mooks killable per cloak cycle. However, boss units generally have enough Armour+Shields/Barriers to require multiple cloak cycles.
Again, not saying any of these are "bad" at anything, just talking about how they fare relative to A) Themselves (TTK on Boss and TTK vs mooks) and B ) Other classes (IE: Huntress' cloaked DC is absurd, and Warp DOT makes it even moreso, whilst a GI will likely one-shot 3-6 mooks per cycle, depending on gun)
I didn't really follow the whole argument, but if you believe a huntress is gonna kill a boss faster than any other infiltrator... Well, you're wrong.
Something like the Javelin with Warp/AP ammo will kill bosses quickly but are gawd-awful against mooks (which is why pretty much nobody used the Javelin/Widow on anyone but the SI until Phasic Ammo was introduced). I'm absolutely certain you could construct a number of headshot builds (including headshot consumables/gear and Disruptor Ammo) that would mow down mooks significantly better/faster than that, with half the armor DPS. In particular, the Suppressor with Cranial Trauma mod would be a prime candidate, if you want to get extreme.
The suppressor actually has very high armor dps. On PC, and with a crate of ammo right next to you XD
"Minimum cooldown" is 3s. That is what you get if you could cancel cloak at 0s of duration. The minimum time before cancel is 1s though. Removal delay is 1.5 seconds for the damage bonus. To test this you can cloak and immediately break with a shot. Note that the cooldown does not actually start right away because of the min time before cancel.
I believe cooldown is still 3 secs tho, isn't it?
this should help, or make you feel bad.
Yeah, you better watch Nought probably, he's better than I am/was at that.
Anyway, the core of it is: always aim for the head. It's a setup where aiming for the body makes zero sense whatsoever, unless you cannot hit the broadside of a praetorian. And even if you can't, just aim for the head and practice: sooner or later you'll get good enough at it.
Pretty much this. When I think of what OP is asking, I'm thinking of it from a power synergy POV. Of course you start talking about guns and that comes down to player skill but it's pretty obvious that certain kits *powers wise* are built for bosses more so than handling mooks.Generally speaking, I thought the argument was more on the relative side.
Like, is there a setup that will do better against bosses than it will do against mooks? And the answer is yes, there are several. Doesn't mean it's gonna be bad against mooks, of course.
Valkyrie Destroyer does great at mowing down both mooks and bosses efficiently. AP ammo or incendiary depending on your team or style for extra cheese.
Typhoon Destroyer...obliterates bosses...takes some time with mooks due to the ramp up time / mooks moving around..Hawk Missiles tend to stagger the mooks enough for the typhoon to do it's thing or the missiles just take the kill
Also no dmg bonus to health.
"Minimum cooldown" is 3s. That is what you get if you could cancel cloak at 0s of duration. The minimum time before cancel is 1s though. Removal delay is 1.5 seconds for the damage bonus. To test this you can cloak and immediately break with a shot. Note that the cooldown does not actually start right away because of the min time before cancel.
Exactly. Cloak, PM or fire, profit. I know you know this, but I'm being stubborn. Lol!
You could carry a Jav/Crusader loadout, and when firing immediately after Cloak, the cooldown would be right about 3 seconds. ULM is a wasted slot that could be used for something much more aggressive. The mentality of glitching for a better cooldown is a waste on Infiltrators. On the other hand, it's a huge advantage for other classes.
I can't believe we're having this argument in the twilight of this game's life...
Wait, since Typhoon has innate piercing, that would make the pierce shots on boss double and triple hits do full dmg too. Right? (Instead of the through cover penalty) If so, more reason that's it's more effective against bosses then mooks.
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