723 réponses à ce sujet

[Tragedienne of Heavens]

I am offended by the recent lack of Toddlers and Tiaras gifs... reported!

[Donk]

I am offended by the recent lack of Toddlers and Tiaras gifs... reported!

I can't. I'm on mobile. Will you do the honours, my lady? *Bows*

(And they say I devalue women?)

[Tragedienne of Heavens]

I can't. I'm on mobile. Will you do the honours, my lady? *Bows*

(And they say I devalue women?)

It's my pleasure O Most Unholy *bows*

Spoiler

[Ieldra]

[...]Primarily because I personally find the idea of gender importance for personality - as something culturally and socially determined and artificial. As in - the extremely polarized gender roles for behaviour are not natural but artificially created by humans. I always found it silly personally that many people put such an enormous importance on gender when it comes to personal identity.

Well, there are two extremes to this. While it's clearly nonsensical to believe that specific behaviour sets belong exclusively to one gender or the other, it's equally nonsensical to believe our physical nature doesn't have an influence on our behaviour at all, and that it's all culture and society. We all have quite a bit of gender-specific biochemistry, and a part of that biochemistry is demonstrably of a kind that influences how we feel, which in turn influences how we behave.

So, if I were physically a woman and had been born that way, I consider it very likely that I'd be different enough to be considered a different person today even if grown up under controlled neutral conditions. Meanwhile, if I was put in a female body today and could make myself feel comfortable with it, quite likely I'd be the same person in everything that counts.

So your physical gender is definitely not irrelevant. How important it is to you, or any individual, that's a very different matter. I'd be rather curious about how it would feel to be a woman, and I don't think I would mind much if an unexpected body switch happened. However, I would start to be influenced by female-specific biochemistry, and I find it completely implausible to believe that wouldn't change my behaviour in some way. My intelligence, my political and religious opinions, my preference for solitude etc.. would likely remain untouched, but specific sets of behaviour, particularly those connected to our reproductive functions, would likely undergo at least some change.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Speaking as a fat woman, I tend to assume people who resort to 'yeah, well, you're fat!' have run out of real arguments. If you have a problem with someone's behaviour, criticising their appearance is generally beside the point.

[Donk]

It's my pleasure O Most Unholy *bows*

Spoiler

Lmao. I'm trying to watch Vikings damn it!

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

I'm late to the party....but wut?

Spoiler

Forget it. BSN does not believe in science or more specifically, science of the human animal. Most in fact do not even believe we are animals?! Oh well. It is what makes BSN unique.

[Donk]

Speaking as a fat woman, I tend to assume people who resort to 'yeah, well, you're fat!' have run out of real arguments. If you have a problem with someone's behaviour, criticising their appearance is generally beside the point.

And again.. I didn't say anything about anybody's weight. And again.. That was an assumption made by somebody because I posted a Gif that featured an overweight lady dancing.. Who sexualises her daughter in a toddler beauty pageant. And again, that wasn't my point -- one user zeroed in on this detail and has thus resulted in this.

I really don't want to argue with you, as I enjoy a lot of your posts and see you as one of the good people of this forum.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

So, if I were physically a woman and had been born that way, I consider it very likely that I'd be different enough to be considered a different person today even if grown up under controlled neutral conditions. Meanwhile, if I was put in a female body today and could make myself feel comfortable with it, quite likely I'd be the same person in everything that counts.

 

Not really. Oestrogen, progesterone, etc. have an enormous impact on behaviour, as do androgens. People who undergo hormone therapy for transgender purposes can attest to this. Of course, what "counts" is relative and without defining that bit it is hard to say. In any event, the entire discussion is academic as I am not a blood mage.

[Ilwerin]

Why I have a feeling that every attempt to turn this conversation back on topic is quite a fight with windmills?

 

Anyway, I would also be interested in any statistics of inquisitors who get, let say, to Skyhold. Because I made maybe 15-20 of inquisies just because of those terrible light conditions in character creator and my incapability to choose the best suiting hair style or eye color for my 2 ladies I have played Black Emporium came too late...

[maia0407]

Honestly, it depends on the circumstances. I've never attacked anybody based on their race, due to my own selfish, personal opinion about it being a rather silly mode of attack.. Skin colour is skin colour. What's insulting in that? Well.. Besides the prejudices and stereotypes, but anyway.

I know I am an arsehole at times. And obviously there are consequences for my actions. I'm not arguing against that, nor am I saying that I'm a saint.

What nobody seems to get is that I have admitted that I am an arsehole, but I like to consider myself as having standards. What I didn't appreciate was somebody preaching to me about devaluing women when for one, I am a woman myself and two, a lesbian who adores women. All because I posted a Gif of somebody who is a piece of trash.. And that person got on their high horse and preached to me, then backed down and tried to do the reverse psychology bullshit.

Now, this topic, as the usual case on the BSN, has blown way out of proportion. So I will say it again.

I am an arsehole.
Sorry for offending if I've offended anybody.
I was merely making a joke.

Will I stop, though? Probably not. Will I change? Nope.

Such is life.

If it's that bad, there is an ignore button. Or you can report me

I haven't backed off my position; I've just been away baking bread. I'm not really sure where the reverse psychology thing comes in. I'm guessing it's just another way to justify your behavior. I'm also guessing you didn't like that I correctly guessed that you are young by the way you are acting. At any rate, stating my opinion isn't preaching no matter how much you want to paint it that way. Perhaps you should take some time to consider what is actually being said.

 

Admitting that you acted like an 'arsehole' doesn't magically make everything okay. It actually appears that you are doubling down. Additionally, being a woman and a lesbian doesn't make you immune from problematic behavior. I've called it like I see it. I am glad to see that you've apologized to any that were offended, though. Kudos for that.

[ArianaGBSA]

Not really. Oestrogen, progesterone, etc. have an enormous impact on behaviour, as do androgens. People who undergo hormone therapy for transgender purposes can attest to this. Of course, what "counts" is relative and without defining that bit it is hard to say. In any event, the entire discussion is academic as I am not a blood mage.

Thing is we absolutely need the fantasy that we are changing a lot with hormone theraphy, some (without proper knowledge) even see impossible body changes. When I was "inside" the gender delirium I thought it was a huge big change and stuff (and I was a happy person). But in fact things we expect a lot like different distribution of body fat and breasts growing are minor. And behavior changes, they don't exist. Despite the whole propaganda of how trans women are women and period, no questions asked, pre op trans women sexually abused trans men and other women. Others are pedophiles, and I mean with girls. Also one of my "ex friends" beat a man unconscious with a wood, she was known to be very violent. Also most trans men I knew still behaved a lot like their female socialization dictated, they really struggled to be manly (I mean, those who were binary and needed to feel masculine and stuff)
It is a lot more like how you want to picture yourself and show yourself to society. Hormones make you feel better about acting like your "true gender" (I don't believe genders anymore and stuff) so it is only natural to "blame" hormones for all the "changes" you're going through. Thing is you are just getting more confident and have material "proof" (or excuse should I say) to be more of a trans woman/man so when you are binary you need this affirmation, this something, this anchor on reality, a material proof that you are really becoming yourself.
Non binary people have an easier time and less fantasy about the whole thing (some wold say more confusion, whatever).
Oh, and when someone manages to shatter your gender fantasy, you become a sick, depressed, hateful person like me, clearly insane and a danger to society so my advice is let trans people be whatever they want, accept them into society and let them be happy. Now I know gender does not exist, but the only thing this knowledge brought me is insanity and pain.

[maia0407]

Oh, and when someone manages to shatter your gender fantasy, you become a sick, depressed, hateful person like me, clearly insane and a danger to society so my advice is let trans people be whatever they want, accept them into society and let them be happy. Now I know gender does not exist, but the only thing this knowledge brought me is insanity and pain.

Love the bolded part and agree. Hope you can find some happiness as well.

[Ieldra]

 Now I know gender does not exist...

Gender is a biochemical reality. To say it doesn't exist is delusional. If it's meaningless to you that's your business, but out in the world, there actually are things we can't change just by believing it.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

Gender is a biochemical reality. To say it doesn't exist is delusional.

As well as a morphological one but eh, BSN. I think as long as one keeps discussions to the game and lore things are cool but as I have already stated, the tendency of BSN is to ignore human science. 

[Panda]

Gender is a biochemical reality. To say it doesn't exist is delusional. If it's meaningless to you that's your business, but out in the world, there actually are things we can't change just by believing it.

 

Or sex is and gender is more of social construct.

[Ieldra]

As well as a morphological one but eh, BSN. I think as long as one keeps discussions to the game and lore things are cool but as I have already stated, the tendency of BSN is to ignore human science. 

I don't know that much about developmental biology, but isn't our morphology determined by our genes - i.e. it has biochemical roots? As for ignoring human science, that can be excused if you stay in a fantasy world, but the ME team really set a bad example themselves. ME was never intended to be hard SF, but in biology I'd be hard-pressed to find any worse nonsense in any SF that attempted to be taken seriously.

 

So....how about we return to speaking about our awesome female Inquisitors. Because they're all awesome, regardless of our real-world genders. 

[Forsythia77]

Goes for hawke , and origins. I watch the videos on youtube everyone not just DA: I wants to play female it seems. 

 

Something im missing? Figured if you play a game you would imagine that the character was you hence role playing right? 

 

Or maybe im paranoid and missing something.

Well, I am in fact, a woman, and almost always play as a woman.  Only romancing Dorian convinced me to play as a man.  So many games default to a male character, so when I have the opportunity to play as my own gender, I will.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

Or sex is and gender is more of social construct.

There really is little difference. Sex/gender is not a social construct, anymore than gravity is and social constructivists who claim otherwise are welcome to walk off the roof of the tallest building in their area. Men and women evolved under completely different selection pressures due to different reproductive needs. They are biochemically, neurologically, psychologically and morphologically distinct. 

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

I don't know that much about developmental biology, but isn't our morphology determined by our genes - i.e. it has biochemical roots? As for ignoring human science, that can be excused if you stay in a fantasy world, but the ME team really set a bad example themselves. ME was never intended to be hard SF, but in biology I'd be hard-pressed to find any worse nonsense in any SF that attempted to be taken seriously.

 

So....how about we return to speaking about our awesome female Inquisitors. Because they're all awesome, regardless of our real-world genders. 

Both. Greater serum testosterone accounts for greater mass as well as differing bone structure in human males, which of course has genetic roots but is biochemical as well.

[Ieldra]

Or sex is and gender is more of social construct.

I do not see a difference between this conception of "gender" and "gender roles and expected behaviour". As far as I'm concerned, the social construct part is covered by the latter, and that those actually are largely a social construct is trivial, though I wouldn't rule out *some* influence from biology. Adding a layer only causes confusion. If I'm a "manly man" I'm a physical male who behaves according to certain social standards. Changing my behaviour doesn't make me any less of a man, it only changes the "manly" part. Only a physical change would do more.

[Ieldra]

Well, I am in fact, a woman, and almost always play as a woman.  Only romancing Dorian convinced me to play as a man.  So many games default to a male character, so when I have the opportunity to play as my own gender, I will.

Imagine my position. I am a man who prefers to play as a woman, and I was quite put out that I couldn't romance Dorian with my preferred gender. I'd have to do the less pleasant and play my own gender. If that's not weird....

[Ryzaki]

I'm weird. It takes a lot for me to play a game where I'm forced to play a male but 8 times out of 10 when given a choice I'll play male.

 

I don't understand myself.

[Panda]

I do not see a difference between this conception of "gender" and "gender roles and expected behaviour". As far as I'm concerned, the social construct part is covered by the latter, and that those actually are largely a social construct is trivial, though I wouldn't rule out *some* influence from biology. Adding a layer only causes confusion. If I'm a "manly man" I'm a physical male who behaves according to certain social standards. Changing my behaviour doesn't make me any less of a man, it only changes the "manly" part. Only a physical change would do more.

 

I think it makes gender and gender roles more something that come from society and culture, time and place than being something inherent when sex is seen more unchanging and tied to biology (chemicals, hormones and so on).

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Well, there are two extremes to this. While it's clearly nonsensical to believe that specific behaviour sets belong exclusively to one gender or the other, it's equally nonsensical to believe our physical nature doesn't have an influence on our behaviour at all, and that it's all culture and society. We all have quite a bit of gender-specific biochemistry, and a part of that biochemistry is demonstrably of a kind that influences how we feel, which in turn influences how we behave.

So, if I were physically a woman and had been born that way, I consider it very likely that I'd be different enough to be considered a different person today even if grown up under controlled neutral conditions. Meanwhile, if I was put in a female body today and could make myself feel comfortable with it, quite likely I'd be the same person in everything that counts.

So your physical gender is definitely not irrelevant. How important it is to you, or any individual, that's a very different matter. I'd be rather curious about how it would feel to be a woman, and I don't think I would mind much if an unexpected body switch happened. However, I would start to be influenced by female-specific biochemistry, and I find it completely implausible to believe that wouldn't change my behaviour in some way. My intelligence, my political and religious opinions, my preference for solitude etc.. would likely remain untouched, but specific sets of behaviour, particularly those connected to our reproductive functions, would likely undergo at least some change.

Good read and good points. I'd just like to clarify that I don't deny gender different biochemistry and that this can and will cause differences in personality. I simply think that the degree of which society has polarized gender importance and gender identity is over-exaggarated far beyond what is natural. Expectations and pre-determined shaping of children based on gender roles is simply taken too far from what it really is. And as a result, gender identity is for many a huge personal deal when it need not (and imo should not) be so. 

 

Lets take a male and a female, lets say their lives are 15% different when it comes to personality due to gender differences (if raised equally outside the influence of our society). Due to our society however, gender polarization, cultural values, upbringing, tradition and the list goes on - suddenly this relatively low (But as you said - and I agree - real and meaninful difference) becomes exponentially more important in our current society.

 

Edit: "more Important" in a bad way that is. When someone ask what you are and you think "Male" or "Female" before "Human" kinda bad Anyway going too OT so we should probably ease down abit. Like I said I'm not a native english speaker but I'm pretty sure I know what you are getting at even if the degree is something we maybe disagree on.