103 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Humans show up around the time elven immortality ends. Dalish legend says that the arrival of humans was responsible, but we know that's not true. But it seems unlikely that it would be mere coincidence.

The wiki cites World of Thedas 1 and says

"The humans are said to have first appeared in the north as a single tribe known as the Neromenians.[2] Their place of origin, and reasons why they left this place, are unknown"

which doesn't tell very much and really isn't likely to be accurate given the passage of time.

So, do we have any sort of clue?

I don't, but here are a few rather baseless speculations dressed up as questions

Did humans always exist in Thedas (or at least Par Vollen), but were only allowed to expand by the end of the veil? Either because it made Thedas more habitable, or because it screwed up the elven civilisation.
Were they perhaps created by the elves or the evanuris?
Were they created by the creation of the veil?
Could they be descended from elves?

Did the creation of the veil cause disruption in their homelands that led to their migration to Thedas? Does the veil even have effect outside of Thedas?
Did they arrive before the veil and somehow precipitate the crisis that led to its creation?
Since they arrived in Par Vollen, are they connected to the Qunari?

[vertigomez]

Maybe they're the original Fex who built pyramids in Par Vollen. *adjusts tinfoil hat*

[Heimdall]

By all accounts, the Ciriane and Alamarii peoples that populate Orlais and Ferelden have no connection to the Neromenians, same for the Rivaini.

[Ranadiel Marius]

My theory since before Tresspasser has been that the first humans were spirits trapped outside the Fade following the creation of the Veil which then became "more complicated" in order to survive the unchanging world. Basically exactly what Cole did only on a massive scale. Tresspasser basically confirmed some of my assumptions (e.g., Elvhes lost their immortality due to the Veil), so I am sticking to that theory.

[Wulfram]

By all accounts, the Ciriane and Alamarii peoples that populate Orlais and Ferelden have no connection to the Neromenians, same for the Rivaini.

Ah yes, the Alamarri apparently arrived from "the distant west" a fair bit later. At the least, that implies that humanity did originate from outside Thedas - indeed, it suggests they were widely settled, since they came from somewhere other than the Neromenians - which casts doubt on my speculations that they might actually originate from within Thedas. I'm not sure if we have any suggestions as to the origins of the Rivaini?

A further thought - how did human civilisations thrive prior to the veil, and what was the consequence for them when it was erected?

[electrifried]

Relating to this, are the Qun somehow related to the elvish people way way back? They have similar ears and language..and I noticed today when Bull is talking about killing the first dragon in the game, he says something about it spoke to him...and jokes about having dragon blood mixed in with the Qun in the past. But what if something like that actually did happen? Dragons seem to be tied to the ancient elves in some way, and it just makes sense that an offshoot species could form once the veil was created..maybe. 

[Beren Von Ostwick]

You see, when a mommy human and a daddy human love each other very much...

 

Okay, serious answer.  I think it is interesting that the Chant of Light calls humans the maker's second children.  I used to always take that to mean elves, humans, dwarves, you name it.  But now with the information about the fade and elves and whatnot, I am starting to think that perhaps the elves were the first children, but possibly in spirit form, and the maker got pissed at how all that went down and made humans.  Not sure how that makes dwarves fit into the whole thing.

[Jandi]

Their ability to be mages, just like Elves and Qunari makes me think that they are the result of the Veils aftermath some way or another. They all dream so they all have a latent connection to the Fade in some fashion. Dwarves are pretty surely the result of Titans, brought to life by them or borne out of a dead Titans body, hence they have no connection to the Fade in any way, which is why they don't dream nor are they mages.

 

There is no proof that Thedas is the only continent in the DA world and it's entirely possible that the Evanuris were NOT the only god-like beings in the world. The legends that they came from somewhere else on a boat is completely plausible. Maybe the Fade being put up caused their homeland to be destoryed and they are what remains.

[Cha0sEff3ct]

Neromenians, Ciriane, wut?

 

I know of the Alamarri because of Andraste... I think. Where is all this lore on humans you speak of?

[Jandi]

Neromenians, Ciriane, wut?

 

I know of the Alamarri because of Andraste... I think. Where is all this lore on humans you speak of?

 

In the Codex entries. The whole boat thing is in one of the Storm Coast Astrariums.

[dragondreamer]

We probably can't say where humans originally came from until we leave known Thedas.  But I think humans arrived in Thedas, (known as Elvhenan at the time), sometime not long before the creation of the veil.  There's evidence in the Brecilian ruins of humans coexisting with ancient elves for a time, until an unknown cataclysm destroyed the site.  I now think that cataclysm was the chaos in the wake of the creation of the veil.

 

Human survivors may have made their way back north, and what they learned from the elves contributed to early Tevinter cultures.  They probably forgot about the elves themselves, until they ran into survivors in the Arlathan forest.

 

As for the elves, I wonder if the Brecilian co-habitation is what resulted in elves believing that humans brought about their mortality.  A mess of false correlation resulting from the veil event happening not long after humans show up, and then suddenly elves becoming more human-like themselves.  Some of the older ones may have known better, but over generations the younger ones had less knowledge, and many of the older ones were probably more interested in trying to hold onto power than straightening out the truth (especially if they were involved in the rebellion that created the veil in the first place). 

[Jandi]

We probably can't say where humans originally came from until we leave known Thedas.  But I think humans arrived in Thedas, (known as Elvhenan at the time), sometime not long before the creation of the veil.  There's evidence in the Brecilian ruins of humans coexisting with ancient elves for a time, until an unknown cataclysm destroyed the site.  I now think that cataclysm was the chaos in the wake of the creation of the veil.

 

Human survivors may have made their way back north, and what they learned from the elves contributed to early Tevinter cultures.  They probably forgot about the elves themselves, until they ran into survivors in the Arlathan forest.

 

As for the elves, I wonder if the Brecilian co-habitation is what resulted in elves believing that humans brought about their mortality.  A mess of false correlation resulting from the veil event happening not long after humans show up, and then suddenly elves becoming more human-like themselves.  Some of the older ones may have known better, but over generations the younger ones had less knowledge, and many of the older ones were probably more interested in trying to hold onto power than straightening out the truth (especially if they were involved in the rebellion that created the veil in the first place). 

 

It's also possible that the humans that were in Southern Thedas are a different group from the Northern ones entirely. There is no reason they must be the same people just because they are both humans.

[Statare]

^ It's also possible the humans at the Brecilian Forest showed up after the Veil. The Temple of Mythal, solas saying ofther pockets of Ancient Elves yet linger, and Tevinter accounts of the Arlathan Forest indicate the Elves did not just suddenly vanish. The Eluvian at the ruins is also the only Eluvian we know of active on its own, it also contained the Blight. That could have been what destroyed those Elves and Humans. The Elves tried to reconnect with their Gods, and accidentally brought darkspawn through. The Brecilian Forest is still mysterious and nothing in Trespasser or DA:I has really explained what went on there, because no where else have we seen evidence of humans and elves co-existing in such a way.

[dragondreamer]

It's also possible that the humans that were in Southern Thedas are a different group from the Northern ones entirely. There is no reason they must be the same people just because they are both humans.

 

I bring that up because Tevinter culture seems to have adapted much of their culture and magic knowledge from the ancient elves, but funnily enough, the official timeline is that they only encountered the elves shortly before the war where they sunk Arlathan.  We know from WoT2 that some of the things the Tevinters supposedly learned from the elves were practiced long before they became the Imperium and encountered the elves in Arlathan forest.  Which means they must have encountered them at some much earlier point in history, and the only account we have of ancient elves living with humans (which are believed to be Tevinters in DA:O from the look of the artifacts), is at the Brecilian ruins.

 

^ It's also possible the humans at the Brecilian Forest showed up after the Veil. The Temple of Mythal, solas saying ofther pockets of Ancient Elves yet linger, and Tevinter accounts of the Arlathan Forest indicate the Elves did not just suddenly vanish. The Eluvian at the ruins is also the only Eluvian we know of active on it's own, it also contained the Blight. That could have been what destroyed those Elves and Humans. The Elves tried to reconnect with their Gods, and accidentally brought darkspawn through. The Brecilian Forest is still mysterious and nothing in Trespasser or DA:I has really explained what went on there, because no where else have we seen evidence of humans and elves co-existing in such a way.

 

The elves didn't suddenly vanish, but the majority of the remaining population gradually moved on to Arlathan, and Brecilian was a large site, with a dwarven trading post and everything.  (The presence of post-Titan dwarves also suggests it's late in Elvhenan's history.)  And WoT2 states that "the Imperium" encountered elves for the first time in Arlathan forest.  This is something prior to the time of Tevinter magisters tinkering with elven artifacts from Arlathan.  It's clear whatever happened destroyed the Brecilian site, and was terrifying enough to send an Arcane Warrior hiding into a soul gem.  We know the ancient elves were messing around with the Blight, and they may have gotten over their heads.    But I don't know if it was simply darkspawn, it sounded like something more earthshattering.  That's why I think it was the chaos of the veil creation.

[Poledo]

Aliens.

[stop_him]

The garbage can.

[Reznore57]

They were monkeys who evolved.

 

• Sten: Relying on humans as a source of education is a fool's errand.
• Shale: They are rather ignorant, aren't they? And feeble. At the best of times.
• Sten: We have creatures on Par Vollen that are similar. The humans call them "monkeys". They are dull, cowardly vermin. They cry out shrilly when threatened and throw their own feces.
• Shale: That is an excellent comparison. I wonder if they are related?
• Sten: Possibly.

I don't have any better explanation.

[Lumix19]

I bring that up because Tevinter culture seems to have adapted much of their culture and magic knowledge from the ancient elves, but funnily enough, the official timeline is that they only encountered the elves shortly before the war where they sunk Arlathan.  We know from WoT2 that some of the things the Tevinters supposedly learned from the elves were practiced long before they became the Imperium and encountered the elves in Arlathan forest.  Which means they must have encountered them at some much earlier point in history, and the only account we have of ancient elves living with humans (which are believed to be Tevinters in DA:O from the look of the artifacts), is at the Brecilian ruins.

 

The elves didn't suddenly vanish, but the majority of the remaining population gradually moved on to Arlathan, and Brecilian was a large site, with a dwarven trading post and everything.  (The presence of post-Titan dwarves also suggests it's late in Elvhenan's history.)  And WoT2 states that "the Imperium" encountered elves for the first time in Arlathan forest.  This is something prior to the time of Tevinter magisters tinkering with elven artifacts from Arlathan.  It's clear whatever happened destroyed the Brecilian site, and was terrifying enough to send an Arcane Warrior hiding into a soul gem.  We know the ancient elves were messing around with the Blight, and they may have gotten over their heads.    But I don't know if it was simply darkspawn, it sounded like something more earthshattering.  That's why I think it was the chaos of the veil creation.

Well Dalish legends seem to imply that the Elvhen met humans before the formation of Tevinter and started to suffer from the loss of immortality.

 

"The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north. Called shemlen, or "quicklings," by the ancients, the humans were pitiful creatures whose lives blinked by in an instant. When they first met the elves, the humans were brash and warlike, quick to anger and quicker to fight, with no patience for the unhurried pace of elven diplomacy. But the humans brought worse things than war with them. Our ancestors proved susceptible to human diseases, and for the first time in history, elves died of natural causes. What's more, those elves who spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, tainted by the humans' brash and impatient lives."

 

So perhaps those who would become Tevinter learned things from the Elvhen traders? There was some suggestion that Thalsian learned blood magic from the Elvhen which may have aided the formation of the Imperium, and Thalsian didn't learn blood magic until 1595 Ancient, 400 years before the Imperium was formed. It's strange that the legend states that Elvhen were losing their immortality even at first contact, especially since Arlathan wasn't conquered until 214 years after Darinius formed the Tevinter Imperium but I think it's safe to assume that that's just a conflation of the idea that humans were responsible for the "quickening".

 

Looking at all these dates and stuff it annoys me that there's no written record of the formation of the Veil and it didn't seem to do anything too catastrophic to Tevinter. The latter could be explained by the Tevinters simply not having enough familiarity with the Fade to create structures like the Vir Dirthara, the former requires them to blatantly destroy evidence of a world changing event.

[BloodyTalon]

They were monkeys who evolved.

 

• Sten: Relying on humans as a source of education is a fool's errand.
• Shale: They are rather ignorant, aren't they? And feeble. At the best of times.
• Sten: We have creatures on Par Vollen that are similar. The humans call them "monkeys". They are dull, cowardly vermin. They cry out shrilly when threatened and throw their own feces.
• Shale: That is an excellent comparison. I wonder if they are related?
• Sten: Possibly.

I don't have any better explanation.

Ape men from the north!

[Nixou]

They were monkeys who evolved.

 

 

We're Apes thankyouverymuch

[indorio]

In one of the codexes of Trespasser it is mentioned that dwarves were given dreams by Mythal (well it's an old lullaby): http://dragonage.wik...oads,_Section_3

 

Could it be that Mythal "liberated" some of the dwarves from the titan, i.e made them individuals instead of hiveminds and gave them dreams? And that those dwarves already were taller or became taller by living over ground, and later called humans?

[Heimdall]

Ah yes, the Alamarri apparently arrived from "the distant west" a fair bit later. At the least, that implies that humanity did originate from outside Thedas - indeed, it suggests they were widely settled, since they came from somewhere other than the Neromenians - which casts doubt on my speculations that they might actually originate from within Thedas. I'm not sure if we have any suggestions as to the origins of the Rivaini?

A further thought - how did human civilisations thrive prior to the veil, and what was the consequence for them when it was erected?

From the location of Rivain, I would suggest that they come from east or north across the sea, but there's no indication in the lore.  The Ciriane people seem to be the only ones without at least a probable origin from outside Thedas.

 

Humans seemed to have arrived shortly after or shortly before the Veil.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Looking at all these dates and stuff it annoys me that there's no written record of the formation of the Veil and it didn't seem to do anything too catastrophic to Tevinter. The latter could be explained by the Tevinters simply not having enough familiarity with the Fade to create structures like the Vir Dirthara, the former requires them to blatantly destroy evidence of a world changing event.

It makes significantly more sense to me that TI wasn't impacted by the creation of the Veil because there was no TI at the time. Elven legends place the loss of immortality as coinciding with humans arriving at Thedas, which if accurate, places the founding of TI as after the creation of the Veil.

As for the lack of records from the creation of the Veil, that is anyone's guess. Part of them were probably hoarded by TI, another part destroyed as heresey, and some probably survive in remote regions like the Temple of Mythal. Still, it does seem like there should be more...

[Lumix19]

From the location of Rivain, I would suggest that they come from east or north across the sea, but there's no indication in the lore.  The Ciriane people seem to be the only ones without at least a probable origin from outside Thedas.

 

Humans seemed to have arrived shortly after or shortly before the Veil.

If you consider 200 years before (give or take a decade) "short".

 

It makes significantly more sense to me that TI wasn't impacted by the creation of the Veil because there was no TI at the time. Elven legends place the loss of immortality as coinciding with humans arriving at Thedas, which if accurate, places the founding of TI as after the creation of the Veil.

As for the lack of records from the creation of the Veil, that is anyone's guess. Part of them were probably hoarded by TI, another part destroyed as heresey, and some probably survive in remote regions like the Temple of Mythal. Still, it does seem like there should be more...

Yet Arlathan wasn't conquered by the Imperium until 214 years after Tevinter was formed. Which just doesn't fit with that idea. If the Elvhen lost their immortality before the Imperium was formed then they must have spend over 200 years moping until they were finally conquered.

It is odd. Perhaps they destroyed the records to conceal the fact that they didn't actually overthrow Arlathan but simply picked at the leftovers? Seems a silly reason though Dorian does say the magisters have a sense of pride about conquering Arlathan.

 

I must say that I am drawing on the DA wiki for this info, and since I don't have the source material they reference at hand I'm relying on its accuracy.

[Illegitimus]

I don't think Tevinter existed before the "creation" of the Veil.  It was founded by human opportunists taking advantage of the power vacuum that Solas had created.  As for humans, I still assume there's another continent they are native to, and probably one that always had the kind of separation between Fade and physicality that the Veil produced.  In fact I suspect that Solas didn't so much create the Veil as restore it after the elves initially tore it away.  As for the "fall of Arlathan", Solas has already dismissed the idea that the Vints were responsible.  What they conquered was probably a pale shadow built on the ruins of the true Arlathan.