103 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurogane335]

I don't necessarily know that we should accept Solas and Abelas' "elvhen" snobbery as the final word on the post-veil elven world. After all, this is the person who would have dismissed modern Thedas as essentially a shadow world filled with non-people.

The post-veil Arlathan no doubt lacked the splendour of Solas' time, but it seems to have endured for centuries and should be considered a civilisation and culture in its own right.
 

Well, they do remember the creation of the veil as the imprisonment of their gods.

The destruction of the veil was an apocalyptic event. The basis for all their technology was destroyed. Their records were destroyed or lost. They had to try to rebuild their society.

Of course they remember Arlathan better, but that's not surprising. Arlathan fell to Tevinter 1000 years after the destruction of the veil. It might not be the "true Arlathan" to the "true elvhen", but the odds are that this is the civilisation the Dalish tales remember, through the distorted lens of centuries of illiterate slavery. A civilisation that itself looked back to before the veil as its golden age - and thus buried the truth of Solas' time under a double layer of legend.

This.

[Heimdall]

Their cities that were in the pocket realms were pretty much nuked and those who escaped through the Eluvians would have told the rest that their floating cities just crubmled.

A loss that later generations barely understood and couldn't see.  After a few thousand years of telephone, they remembered what they could understand and reinterpreted what they didn't into legend.

[Jandi]

A loss that later generations barely understood and couldn't see.  After a few thousand years of telephone, they remembered what they could understand and reinterpreted what they didn't into legend.

 

Seems a bit too selective to me but it's plausible.

[Nixou]

If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that the timeline is probably something like:

 

• First contact between Humans and Elves, Elves see humans as these weird exotic short-lived talking animals who kinda look like them.
• A few Humans migrate to Elven lands, or are brought here by Elven travelers as exotic curiosities. Some case of mating between Humans and Elves produce magic-inclined Humans, but these individuals remain curiosities
• Solas erects the Veil
• Elven civilization collapses in civil war, some remnants of the old empire continue to function as vestigial states.
• Humans fill the power and demographic vacuum
• Magic-wielding elfblooded humans descended from migrants who had become culturally elvhen band together and become the first Magisters. Tevinter starts to expand.
• Tevinter does conquer and destroy Arlathan, except it's by then only a mere shadow of its former self (see Constantinople before it's conquest in 1453: not a metropolis of hundreds of thousands inhabitants but a cluster of villages and small burgs surrounded by ruins and the theodosian wall)
• Being a bit embarrassed at the fact that they gave the coup de grâce to the deliquescent capital of the empire they tried so hard to emulate, the Magisters start to rewrite history in a more flattering manner.

[myahele]

Maybe elves created humans from the Earth?

[dragondreamer]

Well Dalish legends seem to imply that the Elvhen met humans before the formation of Tevinter and started to suffer from the loss of immortality.

 

"The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north. Called shemlen, or "quicklings," by the ancients, the humans were pitiful creatures whose lives blinked by in an instant. When they first met the elves, the humans were brash and warlike, quick to anger and quicker to fight, with no patience for the unhurried pace of elven diplomacy. But the humans brought worse things than war with them. Our ancestors proved susceptible to human diseases, and for the first time in history, elves died of natural causes. What's more, those elves who spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, tainted by the humans' brash and impatient lives."

 

So perhaps those who would become Tevinter learned things from the Elvhen traders? There was some suggestion that Thalsian learned blood magic from the Elvhen which may have aided the formation of the Imperium, and Thalsian didn't learn blood magic until 1595 Ancient, 400 years before the Imperium was formed. It's strange that the legend states that Elvhen were losing their immortality even at first contact, especially since Arlathan wasn't conquered until 214 years after Darinius formed the Tevinter Imperium but I think it's safe to assume that that's just a conflation of the idea that humans were responsible for the "quickening".

 

Looking at all these dates and stuff it annoys me that there's no written record of the formation of the Veil and it didn't seem to do anything too catastrophic to Tevinter. The latter could be explained by the Tevinters simply not having enough familiarity with the Fade to create structures like the Vir Dirthara, the former requires them to blatantly destroy evidence of a world changing event.

 

I think one reason humans weren't as dramatically affected because they didn't have the same spirity nature the elves did.  From the beginning, the elves knew humans as "shemlen", aka "quick children", because of how fast and short their lives were in comparison.  So not only were humans not as advanced magically/technologically, they didn't have the same nature that would be affected in a very noticeable way.  There may have suddenly been a lot less mages, or the inherent ability for anyone to learn magic among humans, but they weren't radically changed like the elves were.  (Dreamers, which were apparently more common in the days of the pre-Imperium, became very rare over time.  There's no given explanation for this, but it might be a sign of humans being affected by the veli.)

 

Also, the Tevinter Imperium itself wouldn't have existed until after the creation of the veil.  At best, the human population was just the early tribes that would become Tevinter.  That the humans of the Brecilian site may have been pre-Imperium traders is an interesting idea.  Perhaps it started that way, and they decided to stay with the elves during that period (the AW spirit mentions that humans built the structures there, which may be why so much of the site is still intact).  Thalsian is certainly someone I've thought about, especially since his background is supposed to be very mysterious, and he's considered the first Dreamer, and brings the belief in the Old Gods and blood magic with him.  As well as the mage ruling class.  And he lived well before the time of the Imperium.  Even in-world scholars suspect he learned from the elves, although there isn't any known direct evidence. 

 

As for the time window between the creation of the veil and noticing the Quickening, I think the Uthenera practice may have allowed surviving ancient elves to prolong themselves for a time.  Subsequent generations probably lost the ability completely.  And I imagine any surviving ancient elves, like the Sentinels, are ones who have found a completely undisturbed place to sleep.  Felassan also tells us not all elves could go into Uthenera indefinitely, so that narrows it down further.

 

If you consider 200 years before (give or take a decade) "short".

 

Yet Arlathan wasn't conquered by the Imperium until 214 years after Tevinter was formed. Which just doesn't fit with that idea. If the Elvhen lost their immortality before the Imperium was formed then they must have spend over 200 years moping until they were finally conquered.

It is odd. Perhaps they destroyed the records to conceal the fact that they didn't actually overthrow Arlathan but simply picked at the leftovers? Seems a silly reason though Dorian does say the magisters have a sense of pride about conquering Arlathan.

 

I must say that I am drawing on the DA wiki for this info, and since I don't have the source material they reference at hand I'm relying on its accuracy.

 

Elvhenan didn't fall in a day, or a week.  It declined slowly after the creation of the veil/loss of the gods.  Not just losing their infrastructure and their former nature; they were locked into internal power struggles (no doubt resulting from the power vacuum) and other internal chaos fed by the culture having to deal with the onset of aging and real mortality.  They were also set against anything but hostilities with the Tevinters due to already established belief that humans were somehow responsible for their mortality.  Arlathan did, essentially, destroy itself.  If it wasn't in such a state when the Tevinters came along, they wouldn't have been so easily crushed.  Tevinter conquering and enslaving the elves is history.  But from the standpoint of an ancient elf, it was their own failings that allowed it to happen. 

[Ranadiel Marius]

Source for the blood magic bit? I believe that was just a scholar speculating.

I thought it was stated or implied by Felassan, but I can't find the quote online and my understanding of what he said was second hand as I have not read Masked Empire. Closest I found was a quote about TI copying ancient elves, but that is broader than just Blood Magic. So I might have just been repeating someone else's misunderstanding of what he said. Although that misunderstanding did allow me to accurately predict how the Elvhes became the elves, so it is still a possibility. *shrug*

I know solas calls them the Elhven but why do you say Elvhes and not Elves?

Because elves are a different species than Elvhes (one being immortal and such) and I prefer to be precise in which I am referring to even if other people don't notice or care.

[jedidotflow]

This is what happens when you don't plan ahead and instead make things up and add and change things as you go along: inconsistencies, retcons, and so on.

Yeah, because mythology in our world is neat and consistent.

[Heimdall]

I thought it was stated or implied by Felassan, but I can't find the quote online and my understanding of what he said was second hand as I have not read Masked Empire. Closest I found was a quote about TI copying ancient elves, but that is broader than just Blood Magic. So I might have just been repeating someone else's misunderstanding of what he said. Although that misunderstanding did allow me to accurately predict how the Elvhes became the elves, so it is still a possibility. *shrug*

I read it and I don't think he ever talks about blood magic. I remember him talking about Elven slaves killing their masters as they lay in Uthenera while Elvhenan crumbled, that's as much as I remember him discussing the fall of the ancient elves.

[Cobra's_back]

They were monkeys who evolved.

 

• Sten: Relying on humans as a source of education is a fool's errand.
• Shale: They are rather ignorant, aren't they? And feeble. At the best of times.
• Sten: We have creatures on Par Vollen that are similar. The humans call them "monkeys". They are dull, cowardly vermin. They cry out shrilly when threatened and throw their own feces.
• Shale: That is an excellent comparison. I wonder if they are related?
• Sten: Possibly.

I don't have any better explanation.

 

Bravo, well that is what I was thinking. Dwarves came from Titans? Qunari may have come from Dragons? Humans came from primates, and the maker loves them best because of their excellent throwing arm. Nailed that elf mage with their feces. 

[Ahriman]

I still sense some rewriting behind the scene. Yeah, Codex entries from dalish elves may be dismissed like myths, but why would they remember arrival of small humanoid tribe and not some minor detail like separation of physical world and Fade? Assuming there was millenia long gap between losing immortality and fall of Arlathan there should have been more than enough evidences recording the first.

[Heimdall]

Bravo, well that is what I was thinking. Dwarves came from Titans? Qunari may have come from Dragons? Humans came from primates, and the maker loves them best because of their excellent throwing arm. Nailed that elf mage with their feces. 

About the Qunari, Corypheus says "your kind isn't even a race, you're a mistake." And Kieran says "your blood isn't yours" or something. I think the Qunari were actually the result of Tevinter experimentation with Dragon blood on human and/or eleven subjects.

[Lazengan]

3 thousand years is  not enough time for the human genome to diversify and make brown skinned humans in certain countries and white skinned humans in others

 

Never mind it's Bioware, they don't think these things through

[Beren Von Ostwick]

Maybe the Maker made them like that from the get go?  Why would he/she do that, you ask?

 

[PorcelynDoll]

I don't think evolution has any place in the DA Universe. It's high fantasy with extremely powerful beings and magic, why does it need to adhere to our world? It worked in Mass Effect because it was a science fiction based universe but I find it unreasonable to be in Dragon Age.

[Knight of Dane]

I have a small fun theory that Solas is actually double wrong. The veil is natural, the reason why the Elves had a prosporous empire is because they tore down the natural barrier between the physical world and the fade. The elves did this to harness magic in its pure form, but also restricted it physically.

 

As far as I remember humans had to learn magic from Spirits, which suggests that wherever they come from the fade was never torn open, it had a range within Thedas, which is why only Elves and Dwarves lived there until then. A story in Tresspasser says a Titan was killed, maybe it was killed to fuel the magic that tore the veil back then?

 

Ages passed and the Elves forgot that the veil had ever exsisted. When Solas "made" it, he actually recreated it without knowing this was actually what the world was supposed to be like. When he did so, the physical barrier was also destoryed and humans and in turn, Qunari were able to travel to Thedas.

 

Haven't really analysed this idea in depth, but it would be kinda funny for Solas to find out HIS whole world was actually the fake one. It would break him xD

[PsychoBlonde]

I have a small fun theory that Solas is actually double wrong. The veil is natural, the reason why the Elves had a prosporous empire is because they tore down the natural barrier between the physical world and the fade. The elves did this to harness magic in its pure form, but also restricted it physically.

 

As far as I remember humans had to learn magic from Spirits, which suggests that wherever they come from the fade was never torn open, it had a range within Thedas, which is why only Elves and Dwarves lived there until then. A story in Tresspasser says a Titan was killed, maybe it was killed to fuel the magic that tore the veil back then?

 

Ages passed and the Elves forgot that the veil had ever exsisted. When Solas "made" it, he actually recreated it without knowing this was actually what the world was supposed to be like. When he did so, the physical barrier was also destoryed and humans and in turn, Qunari were able to travel to Thedas.

 

Haven't really analysed this idea in depth, but it would be kinda funny for Solas to find out HIS whole world was actually the fake one. It would break him xD

 

I love this idea to tiny pieces.

[Knight of Dane]

I love this idea to tiny pieces.

 

Solas will be tiny pieces!

[Blood Mage Reaver]

I have my own theory: http://forum.bioware.../#entry19694270

 

Basically there is evolution in Thedas, only that instead of coming from apes, humans and kossith actually descend from elves.

 

The Maker made spirits, titans, dragons and elves.

 

Elves made other animals and nature (think of Eru singing with the Valar).

 

Titans made dwarves by watching the elves in their dreams.

 

Elves and dwarves go to war.

 

Elves use the power of dragons to defeat dwarves and enslave the titans, Evanuris rise to power with the creation of the Old Gods.

 

Evanuris turn on The Maker and seize the Golden City to become immortal, The Maker becomes The Void which is the source of all blight.

 

Elves who refuse to worship the Evanuris flee Thedas and hide in other continents.

 

Over thousands of years, the exiled elves evolve into humans and kossith. The former by surviving under primitive conditions without magic and the latter by drinking the blood of dragons in an attempt to gain the power to face the Evanuris.

 

Elves drive their own society to the ground, Evanuris go crazy and Solas creates the Veil.

 

Humans have always tried to migrate into Thedas but the Evanuris always smited them before they could gain a foothold, their heretical existence challenged their accounts of being legitimate gods and hence the elven public at large knew nothing about them.

 

Without the Evanuris interference, pockets of humans finally reached Thedas and began to settle there leading to the eventual creation of Tevinter.

 

Without the Evanuris policing the Fade over Thedas and channeling their power to their worshippers, spirits began to teach magic again to other races while the elves struggled with the lost of their main powersource.

 

In a twist of irony, the descendants of those kicked out by the Evanuris conquered those who worshipped them and humanity became the dominant species.

[Wulfram]

If Solas is to be believed, elven immortality was natural. Of course he could be mistaken or lying, but I don't think he was lying in this case.

[Knight of Dane]

If Solas is to be believed, elven immortality was natural. Of course he could be mistaken or lying, but I don't think he was lying in this case.

 

It could also be powerful magic, like Zathrian. Or Ameridan.

 

Because of the long time they lived with the open Fade the legends of their former mortality vanished.

[Blood Mage Reaver]

If Solas is to be believed, elven immortality was natural. Of course he could be mistaken or lying, but I don't think he was lying in this case.

 

He doesn't mention that elves where always immortal, he says that what caused them to lose immortality was the Veil.

 

It is unlikely that any reproductive living race could have started of as immortal on their own without driving themselves to starvation, they must have channeled that immortality and magic from a true god or something akin to it.

 

The Sha-Brytol are immortal because they suck the life out of the titans, the elves where immortal because they sucked life out of the Fade and it's immortal spirits.

 

It is possible that whoever controls the Golden City is capable of channeling the power of the Fade into those he/she chooses and in turn those being become immortal.

 

In that case, if The Maker had the authority over who lived and who died then it's all the more likely that the Evanuris would want to take that power for themselves.

 

Furthermore, if Elgar'nan was the first of the Evanuris and the myth about the sun refers to him casting down The Maker from his throne then it's possible that Solas was born after elves had aquired immortality.

[Wulfram]

He doesn't mention that elves where always immortal, he says that what caused them to lose immortality was the Veil.

I'm referring to an earlier conversation in the main game

Inquisitor: The legends of elven immortality... did they use magic to increase their life span
Solas: No. It was simply part of being elven. The subtle beauty of their magic was the effect, not the cause of their nature.

https://youtu.be/0vv1OD21Yjo?t=3m25s

[Heimdall]

It is unlikely that any reproductive living race could have started of as immortal on their own without driving themselves to starvation, they must have channeled that immortality and magic from a true god or something akin to it.

The don't age, but they do die. Their death rate may be low, as it would purely come from accidents, executions, murder, or fighting, but their birth rate could have been very low as well only speeding up as the elves themselves started aging.
 

The Sha-Brytol are immortal because they suck the life out of the titans

Eh, it's not clear how they're still around. I've seen the theory that they're something like golems, with armor and body fully integrated. They transformed themselves into something not quite flesh and blood. So they aren't feeding on the Titans like vampires.

[hippolytus]

He doesn't mention that elves where always immortal, he says that what caused them to lose immortality was the Veil.

 

It is unlikely that any reproductive living race could have started of as immortal on their own without driving themselves to starvation, they must have channeled that immortality and magic from a true god or something akin to it.

 

The Sha-Brytol are immortal because they suck the life out of the titans, the elves where immortal because they sucked life out of the Fade and it's immortal spirits.

 

It is possible that whoever controls the Golden City is capable of channeling the power of the Fade into those he/she chooses and in turn those being become immortal.

 

In that case, if The Maker had the authority over who lived and who died then it's all the more likely that the Evanuris would want to take that power for themselves.

 

Furthermore, if Elgar'nan was the first of the Evanuris and the myth about the sun refers to him casting down The Maker from his throne then it's possible that Solas was born after elves had aquired immortality.

 

Love this and yeah- the reproduction bit alone makes it seem pretty impossible for them to have always been immortal. I'm keen to see where they go with this.