103 réponses à ce sujet

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

About the Qunari, Corypheus says "your kind isn't even a race, you're a mistake." And Kieran says "your blood isn't yours" or something. I think the Qunari were actually the result of Tevinter experimentation with Dragon blood on human and/or eleven subjects.

 

I am wondering if the Qunari were created by Geldauran (SP?) after that piece of writing you find in JoH:

 

Codex text

The script is an ancient elven dialect. Upon further observation, it twists, the words becoming visible:

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.

I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.

​

[PsychoBlonde]

I am wondering if the Qunari were created by Geldauran (SP?) after that piece of writing you find in JoH:

 

Codex text

The script is an ancient elven dialect. Upon further observation, it twists, the words becoming visible:

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.

I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.

​

 

The "Forgotten Ones" may actually be the Titans by another name.  Or they may be what later became the Old Gods, which were "locked away" in the earth ("the abyss" according to elven lore).

[PsychoBlonde]

Actually, after re-reading the Wiki entries I'm partial to the notion that the Forgotten Ones became the Old Gods and (possibly) created the Blight.  Which might also explain why the attempt by the Tevinter Magisters to enter the Fade went so catastrophically wrong.  And why the Darkspawn keep trying to dig up the Old Gods.

[PsychoBlonde]

He doesn't mention that elves where always immortal, he says that what caused them to lose immortality was the Veil.

 

It is unlikely that any reproductive living race could have started of as immortal on their own without driving themselves to starvation, they must have channeled that immortality and magic from a true god or something akin to it.

 

 

You're assuming that the elves were a "normal" living race to begin with.  It sounds a lot like they were originally similar to Cole--spirits that learned to take physical form, and who were only semi-attached to that form.  So it might have been hundreds or even thousands of years before procreation even became a thing with them or anyone even bothered to invent sex, much less pregnancy.

[electrifried]

I was playing through Trespasser again today and Viv was remarking how she found it odd that human history didn't include info on life before the veil. I think that's pretty significant in itself, implying that humans evolved from elves after the creation of the veil maybe? I think even the Qun could have evolved from the elves, and this would also explain why humans and the qun as well as elves can control magic. There's something to do with lyrium linking the dwarves and elves but I don't think there's enough info to really be certain at this point.

[Kurogane335]

In world of Thedas volume 1, it is said about the Qunari that : "A person is either Qunari or not Qunari, and because the Qunari have practiced selective breeding for thousands of years, no one can be certain what the original kossith looked like".

 

So, it's seems to imply, if the time information is true, that the Kossith aren't humans, possibly not even elves. All in all, after having read that, I really doubt that the Qunari were created by the 'Vints. I think that, just like humans came from somewhere in the North at a point, the Qunari came from the East, and that we still don't know the origins of the two races.

[Wulfram]

I was playing through Trespasser again today and Viv was remarking how she found it odd that human history didn't include info on life before the veil. I think that's pretty significant in itself, implying that humans evolved from elves after the creation of the veil maybe? I think even the Qun could have evolved from the elves, and this would also explain why humans and the qun as well as elves can control magic. There's something to do with lyrium linking the dwarves and elves but I don't think there's enough info to really be certain at this point.

I don't really agree with Vivienne, given the timespans involved. It is 3500 years+, after all. Maybe you could reconstruct some history that far back by looking at those pyramids in Par Vollen.

At least as far as direct human accounts go, anyway. I suppose one might have expected the Tevinters to have acquired some Elven accounts, since it would seem like Arlathan should have had a tradition of written history going back that far.

[Heimdall]

In world of Thedas volume 1, it is said about the Qunari that : "A person is either Qunari or not Qunari, and because the Qunari have practiced selective breeding for thousands of years, no one can be certain what the original kossith looked like".

 

So, it's seems to imply, if the time information is true, that the Kossith aren't humans, possibly not even elves. All in all, after having read that, I really doubt that the Qunari were created by the 'Vints. I think that, just like humans came from somewhere in the North at a point, the Qunari came from the East, and that we still don't know the origins of the two races.

Selective breeding would still imply that the human-elf look-alike traits were still part of Qunari DNA.  If the qunari were created by infusing dragon blood somehow then the Kossith probably looked a lot more dragon-like and very aggressive, the kind of aggression that qunari are so keen on controlling.  So they've actually been carefully breeding out the most dragon-like physical traits.  It would explain why the Qunari believe a qunari born without horns is a good omen.

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

Selective breeding would still imply that the human-elf look-alike traits were still part of Qunari DNA.  If the qunari were created by infusing dragon blood somehow then the Kossith probably looked a lot more dragon-like and very aggressive, the kind of aggression that qunari are so keen on controlling.  So they've actually been carefully breeding out the most dragon-like physical traits.  It would explain why the Qunari believe a qunari born without horns is a good omen.

 

I assume Geldauran was an elf that was pissed off with the Elvhen "Gods" and he/she states that they will disappear and amass their own power. Could that be the creation of a different type of nation and culture mixed in with selective breeding to achieve the Qunari?

[Heimdall]

I assume Geldauran was an elf that was pissed off with the Elvhen "Gods" and he/she states that they will disappear and amass their own power. Could that be the creation of a different type of nation and culture mixed in with selective breeding to achieve the Qunari?

Maybe, but I doubt it.  The origins of the Qun have been told to us, a philosopher named Koslun created it as a reaction to the ills of Kossith society apparently.  That fits quite well, especially with the dragon blood making them aggressive.  Mixing in ancient elves seems unnecessary (And I'm not a fan of the idea that ancient elves are somehow behind everything).

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

Maybe, but I doubt it.  The origins of the Qun have been told to us, a philosopher named Koslun created it as a reaction to the ills of Kossith society apparently.  That fits quite well, especially with the dragon blood making them aggressive.  Mixing in ancient elves seems unnecessary (And I'm not a fan of the idea that ancient elves are somehow behind everything).

 

Well hopefully Geldauran will reveal himself in DA4, Qunari creator or not :-)

[azarhal]

I was playing through Trespasser again today and Viv was remarking how she found it odd that human history didn't include info on life before the veil. I think that's pretty significant in itself, implying that humans evolved from elves after the creation of the veil maybe? I think even the Qun could have evolved from the elves, and this would also explain why humans and the qun as well as elves can control magic. There's something to do with lyrium linking the dwarves and elves but I don't think there's enough info to really be certain at this point.

 

I personally find it funny that anyone would remark humans history not knowing about a life before the veil when they aren't even sure from where they come from and everything pre-Chantry is basically myths and legends unless you are in Tevinter. Also, we have no Dalish myths that directly mentioned the creation of the Veil either, you think something that important would be written everywhere.

 

I suspect that there wasn't much difference at ground level pre-Veil and post-Veil going by this codex that talk about the unchanging world. It would probably have been perceived a lot more if magic stopped worked entirely, but that's not what happened.

 

The game and comic books have hinted heavily that Qunari/Kossith are a by-product of experimentation from either Tevinter or the Elvhen. Some Tevinter magisters are aware of their origins, we will probably learn more about it in DA4.

[Ahriman]

Actually, after re-reading the Wiki entries I'm partial to the notion that the Forgotten Ones became the Old Gods and (possibly) created the Blight.  Which might also explain why the attempt by the Tevinter Magisters to enter the Fade went so catastrophically wrong.  And why the Darkspawn keep trying to dig up the Old Gods.

But there are only three Forgotten Gods, doesn't really match the number of Old Gods.

 

The "Forgotten Ones" may actually be the Titans by another name.  Or they may be what later became the Old Gods, which were "locked away" in the earth ("the abyss" according to elven lore).

Timeline doesn't match here, when elven gods were sealed in Fade, Old Gods were actively helping Tevinter. Unless we consider that imprisonment of Elven and Forgotten wasn't simultanious.

I won't deny though, that Mythal's ability to turn into dragon gives some credibility to your theory.

[Heimdall]

But there are only three Forgotten Gods, doesn't really match the number of Old Gods.

 

Timeline doesn't match here, when elven gods were sealed in Fade, Old Gods were actively helping Tevinter. Unless we consider that imprisonment of Elven and Forgotten wasn't simultanious.

I won't deny though, that Mythal's ability to turn into dragon gives some credibility to your theory.

We don't know the full number of Forgotten Ones, we just know three of their names.

 

I don't think the Forgotten Ones are the Old Gods either, andI don't think Mythal's dragon form means much.  She is the only Evanuris frequently associated with dragon iconography.  To me this says that there's a specific connection between Mythal and Dragons that doesn't hold true for the others of their kind.

[Wulfram]

Geldauren's Claim would seem to me to imply that the Forgotten Ones are basically similar to the "good" Elven Gods, but that they preferred the blunt exercise of power rather than taking on the mantle of godhood.

[azarhal]

 

I don't think Mythal's dragon form means much.  She is the only Evanuris frequently associated with dragon iconography.  To me this says that there's a specific connection between Mythal and Dragons that doesn't hold true for the others of their kind.

 

Mythal is not the only one associated to dragons among them. 

 

Elgar'nan bring Winged Death and this is what the Dalish use to represent him. Falon'Din has wings of death that surround him and in DAO this was said to be a statue of him. Sylaise's breath is apparently hotter than Andruil's spear and her heat rivals Elgar'nan light.

[Heimdall]

Mythal is not the only one associated to dragons among them. 
 
Elgar'nan bring Winged Death and this is what the Dalish use to represent him. Falon'Din has wings of death that surround him and in DAO this was said to be a statue of him. Sylaise's breath is apparently hotter than Andruil's spear and her heat rivals Elgar'nan light.

Elgar'nan I might give you the possibility, though it still isn't clear to me what that icon is, but not the others.  Though if my theory about that great war they fought being against dragons is true, then the dragon skull, if that's what it is, might have an entirely different meaning.  Falon'Din is associated with owls, hence wings, and that statue in DAO saw such general usage as an art asset I'm not sure how much stock to put in it.  Sylaise's breath, maybe, but that is a poem, so I'm willing to chalk it up to a poetic way of say she is very powerful.  Her primary icon is fire.  Andruil's is a hare.  Ghilanain's is Halla.  Dirthamen's is a bear.

 

My point is that dragons are used in relation to Mythal in the same way these other animals and symbols are used in relation to the other gods.  Its given special significance to her, but not the others.

[Ellana's Song]

The Maker made them  lol   - literally.  This is not a religious jest btw; read the lore and listen to Cole.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Monkeys, the Maker, Earth? 

 

Doesn't really matter now. 

 

Probably. 

[Ahriman]

The Maker made them  lol   - literally.  This is not a religious jest btw; read the lore and listen to Cole.

Could someone post Cole's quotes on the matter, please? Because listening to him for the whole game for the sake of it is beyond me.

[Ellana's Song]

Mythal's image have 5 children with white faces.  If you look at her image, her face is not white.  June and Ghilanain have white faces.  Ghilanain is one of the people and June is mystery or he made himself.  BUT they all look like elves.  

 

So, the 5 children are "all the people" and are made by the Maker.  Cole said that they made bodies from earth (physical form) and the blood would be lyrium.  So, what Cole said about "when everything sounds the same" is very true. 

 

The 5 children are the 5 races in Thedas >> Qunari, Human, Dwarves, Elves, Animals/Dragons. 

 

So, technically, Cassandra is the most powerful person in Thedas for she can set your blood to fire.

 

And......who is the Maker?   I'll let you figure that out.  

[Ahriman]

So, the 5 children are "all the people" and are made by the Maker.  Cole said that they made bodies from earth (physical form) and the blood would be lyrium.  So, what Cole said about "when everything sounds the same" is very true. 

Who is "they"?

And Mytha'ls part is just out of picture. Mythal doesn't have white face but animals do?

At least theory with Neromenians coming from the sea explains human origin without involvement of Maker, which existince is purely question of faith at the moment and it most likely will remain this way for a few games at least.

[PsychoBlonde]

But there are only three Forgotten Gods, doesn't really match the number of Old Gods.

 

Timeline doesn't match here, when elven gods were sealed in Fade, Old Gods were actively helping Tevinter. Unless we consider that imprisonment of Elven and Forgotten wasn't simultanious.

I won't deny though, that Mythal's ability to turn into dragon gives some credibility to your theory.

 

The Old Gods "whispered" to the Magisters--who were Dreamers, able to enter the Fade consciously and visit/control the dreams of others.  So it's possible that the Magisters could have communed with the Old Gods IN their prison(s).  Heck, Corypheus was able to reach his influence out while imprisoned/semi-comatose.  The simple fact that the Calling exists means that the Old Gods have SOME way of "reaching out".

 

And the wiki only has NAMES for 3 Forgotten Ones.  The codex entry indicates that there were a great many indeed.  They may not ALL have been able to become Old Gods--assuming that a majority of them survived, the vast number may simply be incapable of reaching out from their prisons.  The Old Gods may simply be ones that managed to get in touch with Magisters who were able to make blood sacrifices and empower them in exchange for knowledge.

 

So, big question time:  What's causing all this stuff to wake up NOW?  I mean, there have been a LOT of things "waking up" over the past decade or so.  A Blight, The Architect, Corypheus, Solas, the Titan . . . granted, the Breach seems to have woken up the Titan.  What ELSE did it wake up?

****'s about to get REAL.

[Heimdall]

The Old Gods "whispered" to the Magisters--who were Dreamers, able to enter the Fade consciously and visit/control the dreams of others.  So it's possible that the Magisters could have communed with the Old Gods IN their prison(s).  Heck, Corypheus was able to reach his influence out while imprisoned/semi-comatose.  The simple fact that the Calling exists means that the Old Gods have SOME way of "reaching out".

 

And the wiki only has NAMES for 3 Forgotten Ones.  The codex entry indicates that there were a great many indeed.  They may not ALL have been able to become Old Gods--assuming that a majority of them survived, the vast number may simply be incapable of reaching out from their prisons.  The Old Gods may simply be ones that managed to get in touch with Magisters who were able to make blood sacrifices and empower them in exchange for knowledge.

 

So, big question time:  What's causing all this stuff to wake up NOW?  I mean, there have been a LOT of things "waking up" over the past decade or so.  A Blight, The Architect, Corypheus, Solas, the Titan . . . granted, the Breach seems to have woken up the Titan.  What ELSE did it wake up?

****'s about to get REAL.

Does it?  I'm not certain the Calling is something the Old Gods can control or that they do consciously.  It could be something the darkspawn are driven to target, rather than them reaching out.  At any rate, Notes from priests of Razikale suggest that speaking to their followers was something the Old Gods did do.  The thing that doesn't fit in the idea that they're elven gods, Forgotten Ones or Evanuris is that Solas apparently went out his way to seal them away entirely, not let them continue to inhabit the Fade and affect the world.  There's also the question of why they would fall silent suddenly.

 

Well, I'm not sure there's a reason.  The Architect caused the Blight with a failed experiment.  The Blight drove Hawke to Kirkwall, near Cory's prison, which led to Corypheus' freedom and Corypheus (With Solas' help) caused the Breach which woke up the Titan...  There's a whole chain  of cause and effect here.

 

So really the question is, why did the Architect choose now to pursue his experiments and why did Solas wake up now?

[Kendar Fleetfoot]

So really the question is, why did the Architect choose now to pursue his experiments and why did Solas wake up now?

 

SANDAL!!!!!! :-)