259 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

Their longterm plan was always to be winging it, and they're still doing it. "Let's see how much further down this rabbit hole goes! Whoop-di-dooe!"

[Iakus]

Maybe conceptually. DA:O definitely had its share of duds. On the other hand, DA:O also struck a much better balance in terms of how much of that filler it was throwing at you at a time. When I was locating the sites of magic power (or whatever the hell those were), I could do it while attempting to help the Elves deal with the Werewolf problem, along with other side quests, etc.

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A lot of that filler was integrated into main quest areas. In contrast, much as DA:I is enjoyable, you essentially have these massive areas which only serve to collect Power as  a resource. It's actually pretty similar to what ME1 did in comparison to KotOR and Jade Empire. Mass Effect kept the same style of side quests, but added an extra layer of unknown planets, which just became a resource sink to reach similar content.

 

Content density becomes a huge factor in that regard.

This is true, but I think there's a bit more to it as well.

 

in DAO the side quests were in fact completely optional.  Mass Effect (well the first two) were as well.  But in DAI there was the whole power and influence thing going.  So side quests, while not required, did have a certain expectation of doing some of them, at least.  I suspect there was a bit of resentment attached to that by the players:  the expectation that they "had" to grind their way through even the most boring quests to gain more power (even though there is far, far more power points available than you will ever need)

 

I mean, yeah Mass Effect had all sorts of collection quests and whatnot.  But there was never any explanation that you actually complete them.If you like to explore, go nuts, gotta catch them all!  But there was no number of things Shepard had to find or do to advance the story, just follow the main quest.

[Mathias]

There were side quests I completed in DA:O, that I had no idea were side quests because they meshed so well with the main quest.

 

THAT is good game design.

[Erstus]

There were side quests I completed in DA:O, that I had no idea were side quests because they meshed so well with the main quest.
 
THAT is good game design.

That's the difference between DAO and DAI side-quests.

Quality over quantity.

[NM_Che56]

Going in with a negative attitude just means you give yourself the chance to be positively surprised if the game actually delivers. After all, a pessimist is never disappointed.

It just means you'll go in with an attitude to confirm negative bias.  

[NM_Che56]

You know that game engines can be modified to suit whatever game they want to work with, right? It's not just for one type of game genre (eg. shooters like BF4) or whatever. The previous ME games were made using the Unreal Engine which was used to make FPS, RPG, and a whole lot of other games. Some movie studios have even used the UE in film making.

But...but...it's EA.

[dreamgazer]

There were side quests I completed in DA:O, that I had no idea were side quests because they meshed so well with the main quest.
 
THAT is good game design.

Same goes for DAI. The same also especially goes for ME3 above the previous two entries.
 

This is true, but I think there's a bit more to it as well.
 
in DAO the side quests were in fact completely optional.  Mass Effect (well the first two) were as well.  But in DAI there was the whole power and influence thing going.  So side quests, while not required, did have a certain expectation of doing some of them, at least.  I suspect there was a bit of resentment attached to that by the players:  the expectation that they "had" to grind their way through even the most boring quests to gain more power (even though there is far, far more power points available than you will ever need)

Bold for emphasis. That says clever integration of optional content to me. The narrative never indicates that you need to grind, only have enough power and influence to complete the outlined tasks. Which is entirely doable without grinding and by following the critical paths, considering there are far, far more power points available than you will ever need.
 

That's the difference between DAO and DAI side-quests.

Quality over quantity.

Inquisition may have a quantity problem, but the quality is still indeed there.

[AlanC9]

in DAO the side quests were in fact completely optional. Mass Effect (well the first two) were as well. But in DAI there was the whole power and influence thing going. So side quests, while not required, did have a certain expectation of doing some of them, at least. I suspect there was a bit of resentment attached to that by the players: the expectation that they "had" to grind their way through even the most boring quests to gain more power (even though there is far, far more power points available than you will ever need)

Hmm..meaning that the DAI mechanics set players up for a mistaken impression that Power works like EMS? In ME3 you really do want most of the EMS available, both RP-wise and gameplay-wise unless you know you're going Control this time. (Of course, DLC makes this less necessary, and MP can blow up the mechanic altogether.) But Power doesn't work the same way.

[Iakus]

Hmm..meaning that the DAI mechanics set players up for a mistaken impression that Power works like EMS? In ME3 you really do want most of the EMS available, both RP-wise and gameplay-wise unless you know you're going Control this time. (Of course, DLC makes this less necessary, and MP can blow up the mechanic altogether.) But Power doesn't work the same way.

In a sense.  It gives the impression that if you don't find some farmer's lost druffalo, or win over the Dalish clan, or open all the doors to the temple, then the world will plunge into chaos unending.  

 

Do quest, get power and influence.  You need power to advance the story and unlock new areas.  

 

This gives a sense of being required to do the side quests, no matter how tedious.  Because it gives you stuff that advances the game.  Compare it to side quests in DAO, where all you get is money and maybe other loot.  Or ME1 where you get money and the satisfaction of a tedious job well done.

[themikefest]

Long term?

 

Who knows? They may have plans on what they're going to do for the next 10-15 years or at least what they like to do.

 

I'm sure they're only concerned about Andromeda right now. After it's released, they'll be doing dlc for the game.

[Mathias]

Same goes for DAI. The same also especially goes for ME3 above the previous two entries.
 

 

No. I knew when I was doing a side quest in DA:I way more often than I did with DA:O.

[Andrew Lucas]

DAO vs ME3.

When I thought I had seen enough

[dreamgazer]

No. I knew when I was doing a side quest in DA:I way more often than I did with DA:O.

There's a difference between "way more often", a purely subjective perception of ratio, and the all-or-nothing angle of your DAO comment.

Your bias towards Origins doesn't mean Inquisition doesn't also have sidequests that accomplish the same thing, which it absolutely does.

[dreamgazer]

Also, if we're going to evaluate BioWare games based on the obviousness of sidequests, ME2 is in deep, deep, deeeeeeep trouble.

[Beerfish]

Long range planning is need for multi game series but they also have to have enough built in flexibility to change game play elements, story and characters to some extent the fly.

[Il Divo]

I'm still trying to understand what obviousness of side quest really means. Most games are pretty good about making clear when you're doing something of lesser importance in comparison to the main quest.

[Mathias]

There's a difference between "way more often", a purely subjective perception of ratio, and the all-or-nothing angle of your DAO comment.

Your bias towards Origins doesn't mean Inquisition doesn't also have sidequests that accomplish the same thing, which it absolutely does.

 

DA:I didn't do it as well as DA:O did, that was my argument. And please don't toss around the word bias like a weapon. I'm not bias for or against anything. 

[JeffZero]

ITT: People fight in proxy wars on behalf of three shadowy organizations: DAO, DAI, and The People's Rebellion Against Golden Child ME2.

[dreamgazer]

DA:I didn't do it as well as DA:O did, that was my argument.

Funny, your quote made it sound like Origins did something that Inquisition did not, not that Origins did it better.

Origins had this:
 

Firing people, delivering death notices, assembling a sword, saving random refugees, finding poison, finding garnets, finding scrolls, finding bottles, and so forth were trash filler for the sake of trash filler just as much as DAI's trash filler.

Inquisition also had this:
 

There were side quests I completed in DA:O, that I had no idea were side quests because they meshed so well with the main quest.
 
THAT is good game design.

The ratio is off in Inquisition, I agree, considering the content BioWare included to facilitate exploration, but the black-and-white position you've taken on the two games is flatly incorrect.
 

And please don't toss around the word bias like a weapon. I'm not bias for or against anything.

Perhaps you should clarify your position on the side-content, then, instead of the partisan argument you're constructing. Because it walks and talks like bias.

[Mathias]

Perhaps you should clarify your position on the side-content, then, instead of the partisan argument you're constructing. Because it walks and talks like bias.

 

Think I was pretty clear. DA:O's side content was better presented and meshed better with the game's main story than DA:I did. You think DA:I's side content meshed well with it's main story too. I don't share your same viewpoint. That's pretty much the gist of things. It just sounds like you're trying to make this disagreement we're having more complicated than it needs to be. Don't overthink it.

 

This isn't even on topic with the thread, so I'm not gonna keep feeding into this.

[dreamgazer]

Think I was pretty clear. DA:O's side content was better presented and meshed better with the game's main story than DA:I did. You think DA:I's side content meshed well with it's main story too. I don't share your same viewpoint. That's pretty much the gist of things. It just sounds like you're trying to make this disagreement we're having more complicated than it needs to be. Don't overthink it.

No overthinking involved. Origins having better integrated sidequests than Inquisition =/= Origins did something Inquisition didn't.
 

This isn't even on topic with the thread, so I'm not gonna keep feeding into this.

Fair enough, though I'm not sure where else the original discussion about their lack of enthusiasm can go without, you know, evidence suggesting a lack of enthusiasm.

[Iakus]

I'm still trying to understand what obviousness of side quest really means. Most games are pretty good about making clear when you're doing something of lesser importance in comparison to the main quest.

Probably an equation involving how far out of your way you have to go to do it, how organic vs bolted-on the quest feels, and how generally interesting the quest content is.

[Iakus]

Also, if we're going to evaluate BioWare games based on the obviousness of sidequests, ME2 is in deep, deep, deeeeeeep trouble.

Most of ME2 felt like side mission, including virtually the entire second half.

[Mathias]

Most of ME2 felt like side mission, including virtually the entire second half.

 

ME2's story did almost nothing in service to the Reaper plotline, but I found the story and the characters on it's own merits to be so much fun.

[Il Divo]

Probably an equation involving how far out of your way you have to go to do it, how organic vs bolted-on the quest feels, and how generally interesting the quest content is.

 

Oh, I definitely think there's room to say some side quest design is much better (or worse) than others. But as far as Bioware taking it to the point where I "forget" it's a side quest, the only thing that comes to mind is Jade Empire's Imperial Arena and that was mainly because the scope of the quest line was so large. ​