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Non-regenerating health retrospective


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#1
Hiemoth

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Having finally managed to finish my second playthrough of DAI including all the story DLCs, I found myself pondering on the various changes in the game mechanics and how they influenced my experience in the game. One of these elements was the decision to switch to non-regenerative health and, as a partial function of that, largely removing the healing spells and limiting the amount of healing potions the group can carry.

 

As context for these decisions, from the top of my head, there were multiple reasons given for these changes. Primary reason was an effort to change how the player approached combat, trying to enforce a more tactical approach to the situations, while also discouraging trying to fight everything moving around for XP and being forced to weight the benefits of a confrontation and exploration. Additionally, in a long post, one of the devs explained how this was really good for combat design and balancing as in the previous system, due to the possibly large number of health potions, they could never know what was the upper limit of the group health when entering the combat system. Removing that uncertainty allowed them to create more balanced combat encounters that didn't result in just giving the boss fights endless amounts of health slowly widdled away.

 

So I am curious to hear opinions from posters here what they thought of this change? Did you feel that it improved your game experience and if so, why? And if you felt it took away from your enjoyment, what were the causes for that? And finally, did you feel the change achieved the goals publicly set out for it?

 

And by the way, if I have accidently given any false information here, please correct me.



#2
Wulfram

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In practice they put supply caches before the boss fights, which limited the real impact. I didn't think it was terrible but I feel the game would have flowed more smoothly with regenerating health.

 

I didn't really like replacing healing with barriers though.  Barriers were just a pain.  And the DA2 system of healing actually worked pretty well.

 

Not sure if related, but I wasn't keen on revive.  Seemed a bit cheap.  But limited healing + non-tank squishiness made it rather necessary.


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#3
Reika

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Having Revive available, but none of the other healing spells, made me roll my eyes a bit. I sort of saw where they were coming from, but it just seemed a bit off, but I can't put my finger on what.



#4
actionhero112

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Combat system sucked in origins, got better in 2, and will probably peak in inquisition if they cave and bring healing back for 4. 

 

Heal spamming and buff stacking does not make a good combat system. It makes an easy, not tactical and in general, bad, combat system. 

 

Funnily enough, the game in which they took away the tactics screen has the most tactical combat. Combat in this game could have been amazing if they kept the tactics screen around. 


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#5
Big I

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It only made a difference for me at the very beginning of the game. Once I had enough elfroot to make as much regen potions as I needed, it didn't matter, even if having to pick up every elfroot I came across could be irritating. Once you start crafting guard on hit gear it becomes trivial; guard becomes your new health bar, and you regenerate it by attacking.


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#6
BansheeOwnage

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Having finally managed to finish my second playthrough of DAI including all the story DLCs, I found myself pondering on the various changes in the game mechanics and how they influenced my experience in the game. One of these elements was the decision to switch to non-regenerative health and, as a partial function of that, largely removing the healing spells and limiting the amount of healing potions the group can carry.

 

As context for these decisions, from the top of my head, there were multiple reasons given for these changes. Primary reason was an effort to change how the player approached combat, trying to enforce a more tactical approach to the situations, while also discouraging trying to fight everything moving around for XP and being forced to weight the benefits of a confrontation and exploration. Additionally, in a long post, one of the devs explained how this was really good for combat design and balancing as in the previous system, due to the possibly large number of health potions, they could never know what was the upper limit of the group health when entering the combat system. Removing that uncertainty allowed them to create more balanced combat encounters that didn't result in just giving the boss fights endless amounts of health slowly widdled away.

 

So I am curious to hear opinions from posters here what they thought of this change? Did you feel that it improved your game experience and if so, why? And if you felt it took away from your enjoyment, what were the causes for that? And finally, did you feel the change achieved the goals publicly set out for it?

 

And by the way, if I have accidently given any false information here, please correct me.

I always thought Bioware's reasoning there was pretty bad. They have a terrible habit of scrapping something instead of actually being innovative and making it work better. They did it again here. Could you have lots of health potions in DA:O? Sure, but you had to buy or make the good ones. In DA:I, you can just stop by a camp or find a conveniently-located cache in a main mission, and it'll give you as many as 12 for free. How is that not just as bad? I never even came close to running out of potions in story-missions on Nightmare, there are just so many caches.

 

What makes it worse is DA2 solved most of DA:O's spam problems by simply making potions and healing spells have long cooldown times. That made them more balanced, and DA:I should have simply gone in the same direction instead of getting rid of everything. Potions in DA:I don't even have cooldowns, so that's another reason I think their reasoning is flawed. It's not worth removing an entire magic tree just so they didn't have to actually use their heads and solve the problem, and it didn't work anyway.

 

But Barrier is the worst problem. If you have one mage in your party, which you usually will, the entire group will get a barrier at the beginning of a fight, which will almost guarantee a win for a lot of fights just by itself. It's just as spam-y as potions, and much easier to manage, since you can cast in infinite times. It's also even less tactical than potion-spam (not that that was tactical) since you won't even take any damage in the first place, so you don't have to think about when to heal who. You just use it whenever it's available. If you have two mages in your party, well... it almost plays itself.

 

So please go back to DA2's healing system in DA4. In some ways, I think they should scrap Barrier, too. Give mages better damage and crowd-control spells though. I mean, what happened to good old Fireball? Or the cone spells? Etc, etc, etc.

 

Somehow I just noticed this was mostly about lack of health regeneration, my bad. Well, the same thing applies. It doesn't matter while exploring because you can fast-travel to a camp. All it accomplishes is making the game more tedious. It doesn't work in story-missions because you find caches everywhere. And I don't buy that it made combat more interesting or easier to balance for one second. Quite the opposite. It's easier to balance each encounter if you know your group will always enter it at full-strength. And it's also extremely tedious to fall off something and take a bit of damage, then use a whole potion just to heal it so you don't go into the next battle with a disadvantage. I should be able to have my health regenerate (slowly would be fine), or heal it with magic.


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#7
BansheeOwnage

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It only made a difference for me at the very beginning of the game. Once I had enough elfroot to make as much regen potions as I needed, it didn't matter, even if having to pick up every elfroot I came across could be irritating. Once you start crafting guard on hit gear it becomes trivial; guard becomes your new health bar, and you regenerate it by attacking.

Yeah, that's another reason their decision is just bonkers to me.

 

"We need to remove healing magic, even though it's part of the lore, because it's too hard for us to balance, even though we balanced it fine in DA2. Instead, let's give players unlimited potions through fast-traveling, heal-on-hit/kill gear, heal over time gear, Guard, Guard-on-hit, Barrier, Barrier-on-hit, Regeneration Potions, and healing grenades!"

 

So, all of that is okay, but healing spells are absolutely out of the question? Healing spells in a specialization, no less. Are they even trying to make sense? :blink:


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#8
Hiemoth

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In practice they put supply caches before the boss fights, which limited the real impact. I didn't think it was terrible but I feel the game would have flowed more smoothly with regenerating health.

 

I didn't really like replacing healing with barriers though.  Barriers were just a pain.  And the DA2 system of healing actually worked pretty well.

 

Not sure if related, but I wasn't keen on revive.  Seemed a bit cheap.  But limited healing + non-tank squishiness made it rather necessary.

 

I ended up hating barriers, especially when thrown by the enemy. There was a demon fight in Trespasser where the demons not only had ridiculous amounts of HP, but constantly spammed barrier. My words during those enouncters were, let us just say, precious.

 

I actually also really liked the DA2 system, which actually went in to the same direction in trying to limit heal spamming and the amoung of health potions in an encounter, to a great success for me personally. However, i feel both DA2 and DAI had a similar issue that the devs really seemed to commit to their approach.

 

In DA2 they implemented a system that the health potions you could loot depended on how many health potions you had, basically trying to set a limit to the max health potions, which combined with the longer cool-down both with health potions and healing really went far to spamming healing in a combat situation, while the regen system allowed the player to still play fast and loose in the actual combat. However, then they made it possible to buy health potions which wasn't limited by the amount of health potions you had, but still it was kind of okay for the approach as there was only a limited amount of buyable health potions. At that moment they introduced elfroot potions, which you could manufacture as much as you could cheapely buy, completely undermining the approach they were taking.

 

Something similar happened with DAI. Let's make health potions limited and force you to think, but give so many supply crates that it doesn't really matter. When exploring, you can just go back to the camp and thus just make it more tedious. I could see in the game what they were going for, but it really just felt almost academic without really effecting anything and thus became more of an annoyance than a legitimate concern.



#9
OdanUrr

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I thought healing was removed because of MP? :huh:



#10
BansheeOwnage

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I thought healing was removed because of MP? :huh:

Not everything is because of consoles or MP. I don't see why they couldn't have just made MP work differently, or work with healing for that matter. Just disable health regeneration in MP. You regen between each section anyway. You can still heal in MP in the same ways you can in SP, after all. So I'm going to need more if I'm going to start blaming MP for that.



#11
Hiemoth

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I always thought Bioware's reasoning there was pretty bad. They have a terrible habit of scrapping something instead of actually being innovative and making it work better. They did it again here. Could you have lots of health potions in DA:O? Sure, but you had to buy or make the good ones. In DA:I, you can just stop by a camp or find a conveniently-located cache in a main mission, and it'll give you as many as 12 for free. How is that not just as bad? I never even came close to running out of potions in story-missions on Nightmare, there are just so many caches.

 

What makes it worse is DA2 solved most of DA:O's spam problems by simply making potions and healing spells have long cooldown times. That made them more balanced, and DA:I should have simply gone in the same direction instead of getting rid of everything. Potions in DA:I don't even have cooldowns, so that's another reason I think their reasoning is flawed. It's not worth removing an entire magic tree just so they didn't have to actually use their heads and solve the problem, and it didn't work anyway.

 

But Barrier is the worst problem. If you have one mage in your party, which you usually will, the entire group will get a barrier at the beginning of a fight, which will almost guarantee a win for a lot of fights just by itself. It's just as spam-y as potions, and much easier to manage, since you can cast in infinite times. It's also even less tactical than potion-spam (not that that was tactical) since you won't even take any damage in the first place, so you don't have to think about when to heal who.

 

So please go back to DA2's healing system in DA4. In some ways, I think they should scrap Barrier, too. Give mages better damage and crowd-control spells though.

 

Somehow I just noticed this was mostly about lack of health regeneration, my bad. Well, the same thing applies. It doesn't matter while exploring because you can fast-travel to a camp. All it accomplishes is making the game more tedious. It doesn't work in story-missions because you find caches everywhere. And I don't buy that it made combat more interesting or easier to balance for one second. Quite the opposite. It's easier to balance each encounter if you know your group will always enter it at full-strength. And it's also extremely tedious to fall off something and take a bit of damage, then use a whole potion just to heal it so you don't go into the next battle with a disadvantage. I should be able to have my health regenerate (and slowly is fine), or heal it with magic.

 

My question was ill-posed, as it was intended to touch both on the non-regen health and limited healing as those both are deeply connected in the game mechanics. Thus your comment is completely within the limits of the question and I apogize for the lack of clarity on my part.

 

As for the comment itself, I agree to a large degree and also really liked the system in DA2 and agree to your comment about the balancing thing. In DA2, especially if they had committed to not having health be purchasable, they would have know exactly the range of health in a combat situation. In DAI, they couldn't know the lower limit, which I assume forced them to be so liberal with the supply crates.

 

Yeah, that's another reason their decision is just bonkers to me.

 

"We need to remove healing magic, even though it's part of the lore, because it's too hard for us to balance, even though we balanced it fine in DA2. Instead, let's give players unlimited potions through fast-traveling, heal-on-hit/kill gear, heal over time gear, Guard, Guard-on-hit, Barrier, Barrier-on-hit, Regeneration Potions, and healing grenades!"

 

So, all of that is okay, but healing spells are absolutely out of the question? Healing spells in a specialization, no less. Are they even trying to make sense? :blink:

 

This I really agree with. Not because of the lack of healing spells, but rather in an effort to remove them they basically enforced a system which forces you to spam several things instead. Don't have a warrior getting insane amounts of guard? You're going to lose fast. Don't have a mage spamming barrier? You're going to lose soon. Basically, in order to fix it, they removed a system that very allowed you to do even the hardest of fights without Anders/Bethany in your team to something that requires you to have a high guard tank and a mage spamming barrier. It was an odd thing to witness.


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#12
Hiemoth

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I thought healing was removed because of MP? :huh:

 

Why would they have removed it for MP?



#13
OdanUrr

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Not everything is because of consoles or MP. I don't see why they couldn't have just made MP work differently, or work with healing for that matter. Just disable health regeneration in MP. You regen between each section anyway. You can still heal in MP in the same ways you can in SP, after all. So I'm going to need more if I'm going to start blaming MP for that.

 

Well, I can't find a valid reason for removing it. It's easy to blame MP as the culprit seeing as we had healing magic in DA2, a game with no MP component. However, there are games that are multiplayer-only where healing abilities are a key component of the experience, just take SWTOR for instance or practically any MMORPG out there seeing as they all favour the divine trinity of DPS, tank, and, wouldn't you guess it, healer. Removing healing abilities to encourage a more tactical approach to combat seems a ludicrous reason at best.



#14
BansheeOwnage

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Well, I can't find a valid reason for removing it. It's easy to blame MP as the culprit seeing as we had healing magic in DA2, a game with no MP component. However, there are games that are multiplayer-only where healing abilities are a key component of the experience, just take SWTOR for instance or practically any MMORPG out there seeing as they all favour the divine trinity of DPS, tank, and, wouldn't you guess it, healer. Removing healing abilities to encourage a more tactical approach to combat seems a ludicrous reason at best.

I agree completely. It's ludicrous reasoning, but I still think it's why they did it. They made a mistake.


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#15
Giantdeathrobot

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I didn't mind it, but in retrospect I think the DA2 model works best; have healing and healing potions, but on long cooldowns to dicourage the spam and pocket healer problems of Origins.

 

They could also mix this with the existing barrier and guard systems to serve as damage mitigations. You can easily have both if you balance them right.


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#16
Morroian

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The change did not result in more tactical combat cause their combat designers are simply not very good, they replaced heal spells with barrier and guard spamming, and they compromised on healing anyway by having endless potion refreshes in camps and supply caches in boss fights. So what happened was they introduced boring busywork, reduced combat variety, and simply substituted healing for other abilities, all poor game design choices. The best combat in the series for me is the Legacy DA2 DLC. 


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#17
Vit246

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Bring healing magic back. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, fix it correctly.


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#18
AntiChri5

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Why would they have removed it for MP?

You clearly haven't been here long.

 

If something is bad, it is because of multiplayer or consoles.



#19
ShadowLordXII

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Removing health regeneration is one thing.

 

Removing healing spells almost entirely was too far and inconsistent with Dragon Age's lore/world.

 

BW's logic is also lessened when you realize that you get free potions at every camp, so all that happened is that you've replaced healing spam with potion spam.


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#20
Nefla

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I didn't like the changes to combat, but I would rather it stay as-is and have the devs focus on making a fantastic story, characters, and sidequests than reworking the combat system again.



#21
BansheeOwnage

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I didn't like the changes to combat, but I would rather it stay as-is and have the devs focus on making a fantastic story, characters, and sidequests than reworking the combat system again.

At this point I agree. I liked DA:O and DA2's combat, and DA:I's is better now that each skill has an alternate upgrade, but they should keep it's foundation and work onto it. Of course, that doesn't mean they couldn't re-introduce healing. Though I would imagine different teams work on those things for the most part, it would still make combat itself better if they didn't start from scratch again.


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#22
Samahl na Revas

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It didn't matter in the end.

 

Guard on hit, heal on hit, heal on kill, Knight Enchanter :rolleyes:, barrier. Barrier is actually a good mechanic from ME but it didn't have as much impact as it does in ME. What I mean is in ME barrier will prevent an ability such as freezing an enemy from occurring without reducing the enemies barrier to a certain threshold. In DAI barrier is more an annoyance and damage sponge.  

 

Giving more enemies actual abilities that hinder us without annoying us would of been better. Some enemies have fear etc but they do not really get to use it even on nightmare. If every encounter started with the enemy is going to hinder one of my characters, preparation would be needed. knock down is ok but cheap. In multiplayer before heart-breaker became easy a team could wipe from being frozen by the enemies version of blizzard, those were fun times. We had to consider who to attack in early HB to prevent being hindered. Such features shouldn't be extras that come later or turned on. Force us to think on our feet, use potions, etc.

 

Yeah, then there is the casual gamer... 


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#23
TraiHarder

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To be honest it didn't do anything for me. Only reason I don't fight a enemy is because I don't have the patient so I just say f it an run past them.

 

I don't see it as much of a hindrance when u can fast travel to camp an fill right back up. I would love healing back but maybe only have healing over time spells available in combat an out of combat allow the chunk healing spells.



#24
In Exile

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Yeah, that's another reason their decision is just bonkers to me.

 

"We need to remove healing magic, even though it's part of the lore, because it's too hard for us to balance, even though we balanced it fine in DA2. Instead, let's give players unlimited potions through fast-traveling, heal-on-hit/kill gear, heal over time gear, Guard, Guard-on-hit, Barrier, Barrier-on-hit, Regeneration Potions, and healing grenades!"

 

So, all of that is okay, but healing spells are absolutely out of the question? Healing spells in a specialization, no less. Are they even trying to make sense? :blink:

 

Combat in an RPG makes absolutely no sense. It's complete and utter nonsense - every part of the mechanic is a reduction and/or absurdity. So an appeal to what makes sense isn't really appropriate when talking about healing, or any combat mechanic. 

 

There are lots of criticisms of how healing spells were implemented and how they were approached - but the lore angle doesn't make sense. Healing absolutely broke the lore, suggesting that near-immortality was within reach of any mage whatsoever. In fact, acting like the healing we see in-game is the healing magic in the lore is bonkers, because in-game healing is tied to "HP", a nonsense system that has no connection to how injuries work (lore-wise). 


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#25
In Exile

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It didn't matter in the end.

 

Guard on hit, heal on hit, heal on kill, Knight Enchanter :rolleyes:, barrier. Barrier is actually a good mechanic from ME but it didn't have as much impact as it does in ME. What I mean is in ME barrier will prevent an ability such as freezing an enemy from occurring without reducing the enemies barrier to a certain threshold. In DAI barrier is more an annoyance and damage sponge.  

 

Giving more enemies actual abilities that hinder us without annoying us would of been better. Some enemies have fear etc but they do not really get to use it even on nightmare. If every encounter started with the enemy is going to hinder one of my characters, preparation would be needed. knock down is ok but cheap. In multiplayer before heart-breaker became easy a team could wipe from being frozen by the enemies version of blizzard, those were fun times. We had to consider who to attack in early HB to prevent being hindered. Such features shouldn't be extras that come later or turned on. Force us to think on our feet, use potions, etc.

 

Yeah, then there is the casual gamer... 

 

But that whole "status-effect based combat" which is a lot of what BG1/BG2 (esp. BG2, with the rock-paper-scissor) mage duels boiled down to, and it wasn't particularly "tactical" or strategic. It all just becomes an issue of spamming the right buffs instead of spamming the right damage spells.