109 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

Cerberus was Alliance in origin.  They were pretty clearly characterized this way in ME1.  It wasn't a strange coincidence that Cerberus scientists happened to be called former Alliance scientists, or that Kahoku called Cerberus an Alliance Black Ops group that had "gone rogue."  They couldn't have gone rogue if they weren't accountable in some way to the Alliance to begin with.

 

I agree with above comments regarding TIM and his characterization in ME2.  That was obviously the high point, where you had someone who may have indeed wanted to do something for humanity, but was ruthless in his methods.  Unfortunately the expanded lore and then ME3 turned him into more of a cartoon villain, and the indoctrination retread was not very interesting.  Cerberus should not have been what amounted to the primary enemy in ME3, and TIM should have probably remained closer to his ME2 persona.

[Pasquale1234]

I always saw TIM as sort of a poster boy / object lesson for "this is what happens when you forego normal safeguards in the wanton pursuit of technology."

 

Maybe with a side of "desperate times call for desperate measures" and "power corrupts".

 

[o Ventus]

Cerberus was the human version of the Salarian STG.

 

Maybe in ME2, before they were character-butchered and made into a smaller version of the Galactic Empire. In ME3 they're just unrepentant a**holes to everyone.

[Laughing_Man]

I always saw TIM as sort of a poster boy / object lesson for "this is what happens when you forego normal safeguards in the wanton pursuit of technology."

 

Maybe with a side of "desperate times call for desperate measures" and "power corrupts".

 

More like a strawman than an object lesson.

[dreamgazer]

Maybe in ME2, before they were character-butchered and made into a smaller version of the Galactic Empire. In ME3 they're just unrepentant a**holes to everyone.

A history of reckless mad science finally caught up to them. Unsurprising.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maybe in ME2, before they were character-butchered and made into a smaller version of the Galactic Empire. In ME3 they're just unrepentant a**holes to everyone.

They were that way in Mass Effect 1 as well. The Cerberus we saw in Mass Effect 2 was a fabrication created by The Illusive Man to get Shepard to support them. He states this in a terminal in Mass Effect 3, where he orders friendly people to serve on the Normandy as the crew(who all leave after seeing how Cerbeus really is). Even in ME2 outside our crew most Cerberus places we go have them being as they are in ME1 and ME3. 

[Jester]

Some keep saying they changed into the 'bad' guys in ME 3.  They were always the 'bad guys'.   Everything in the first two games was just building to this apex.   They were consistently looking for ways to create and control super-soldiers.    Everything they ever did was to grab more power for themselves, right up to the end when they wanted to control the reapers themselves for the power it could give them. 

And they weren't wrong. Illusive Man was obviously right from the very beginning, Reapers can be controlled. And Control ending is in every way superior to Destroy ending.

So he was right all along. 

 

What completely ruined it, was his Indoctrination. It just didn't make sense, because TIM was far too clever to not take every precaution against that. He was well aware of capabilities of the Reapers. The ending (if they wanted to go with different colors and "Deus Ex" switches) should have been the argument between Shepard and Illusive Man as to what option should they choose (Control or Destroy).

 

It was such a wasted opportunity. They should have shown TIM triumphant, as he confirmed that Control was possible all along. Not as an Indoctrinated degenerate of a man, but as the one who was correct all this time, and it was Shepard who was misguided in his stubborness. 

 

I mean, it was Cerberus who actually conducted some research on the Reapers. How they communicate. How their Indoctrination works and how to mimic it. How they create Husks and other monstrosities. Their research was what Alliance and other militaries should have started doing immediately after Sovereign was defeated. 

 

Illusive Man's Indoctrination feels shoehorned in the final dialogue, just to make the player feel good about themselves. 

That would be a good final twist/explanation. With Illusive Man, not Star Child. 

[Beerfish]

And they weren't wrong. Illusive Man was obviously right from the very beginning, Reapers can be controlled. And Control ending is in every way superior to Destroy ending.

So he was right all along. 

 

What completely ruined it, was his Indoctrination. It just didn't make sense, because TIM was far too clever to not take every precaution against that. He was well aware of capabilities of the Reapers. The ending (if they wanted to go with different colors and "Deus Ex" switches) should have been the argument between Shepard and Illusive Man as to what option should they choose (Control or Destroy).

 

It was such a wasted opportunity. They should have shown TIM triumphant, as he confirmed that Control was possible all along. Not as an Indoctrinated degenerate of a man, but as the one who was correct all this time, and it was Shepard who was misguided in his stubborness. 

 

I mean, it was Cerberus who actually conducted some research on the Reapers. How they communicate. How their Indoctrination works and how to mimic it. How they create Husks and other monstrosities. Their research was what Alliance and other militaries should have started doing immediately after Sovereign was defeated. 

 

Illusive Man's Indoctrination feels shoehorned in the final dialogue, just to make the player feel good about themselves. 

That would be a good final twist/explanation. With Illusive Man, not Star Child. 

I agree with pretty well all of this.  It almost looked they ran out of time or gave up and simply made the illusive man to be saren version 2.0, very much a waste opp.

[Jester]

I agree with pretty well all of this.  It almost looked they ran out of time or gave up and simply made the illusive man to be saren version 2.0, very much a waste opp.

The possibilities were endless there. 

Because the Illusive Man was basically the antagonist the entire game, the face-off should have been much more satisfying. 

 

For example, Renegade Shepard could have agreed with him, and Controlled Reapers would have brought the apex of humans at the cost of other species. Paragon Shepard would disagree and would make Control ending with Reapers benefiting all races. Or you could deny and Destroy.

 

The could have even made a final boss battle out of this, as the main game lacks one - for example with Illusive Man plugging himself to Crucible's mainframe and taking control of the Reapers to oppose Shepard disagrreing with his plan. Or anything else, like a smart dialogue where you can convinve him to your point of view.

 

It's like with Dragon Age: Inquisition. The more I think about it, the more I realize how both endings were wasted potential (I'm talking about base game, I haven't played Tresspasser yet) and how they could have been so much more, if the villains/antagonists were actually made to be competent and not look like misguided fools near the ending, just to boost player's ego. 

[capn233]

I agree with pretty well all of this.  It almost looked they ran out of time or gave up and simply made the illusive man to be saren version 2.0, very much a waste opp.

 

Yeah and in TIM's origin story they decided to retcon Saren into a complete idiot, so makes sense.

[Dantriges]

TIM was in ME 1? Cerberus was only a footnote in some sidemissions and important for one background. 

 

I haven´t read the comics but AFAIK TIM was indoctrinated since Shanxi which doesn´t really make sense but well, it´s Cerberus related. So Cerberus was doomed from the start.

 

TIM´s and Cerberus characterisation  is pretty consistent. He lost his mask in his final talk with Shepard if you blew up the base. ME 1 it was an organisation devoted to reckless research, in ME 2 it was more or less the same everywhere but the Normandy and in ME 3 it finally caught up with them even more spectacularly than usual.

 

So the Alliance should have turned to abducting citizens and throw them into a lab for some horrible experiments? What for? The crucible worked just fine without any Cerberus research data. I didn´t see an entry in war assets labeled "Horizon lab results." And well considering that everything reapery seems to indoctrinate, perhaps itr wasn´t a bad idea to approach that stuff with caution instead of reckless abandon. Ups, the reaper signal is stronger than we thought, ah well we are dead.

[capn233]

TIM was in ME 1? Cerberus was only a footnote in some sidemissions and important for one background. 

 

Cerberus was potentially involved in a lot of side missions in ME1 really, although not stated completely obviously like with Missing Marines -> Cerberus -> Hades' Dog or Dead Scientists.

[Dantriges]

Hm k. Still Cerberus was one group of many shooting at me and no build up as something more than the color coded mercs of ME 2. Actually it felt more like I had a personal vendetta against Blue Suns, Eclipse and Blood Pack in ME 2 than against Cerberus in ME 1.

[Erstus]

Cereberus went from a morally grey and well-written organization in ME2 to space-nazi Umbrella Corp in ME3.

I do hope we see some organizations and corporations similar to Cerb in MEA. I would like to see more of Binary Helix and Exogeni

[liclic]

Remember what was said by the catalyst: there is always a traitor that indirectly helps the machines to win! The illusive man was this traitor.

[Erstus]

Also, how did Cerberus form into a superpower with a military and navy that matched the Alliance?

That part seemed the most ridiculous to me

[DeathScepter]

Also, how did Cerberus form into a superpower with a military and navy that matched the Alliance?

That part seemed the most ridiculous to me

 

 

that is why maybe IT exist due to the ridiculous-ness of Cerberus becoming a superpower on par of the Alliance or even the Council.

[Karma_Joy]

Cerberus = Diamond dogs

Illusive man = Big Boss 

[WidePaul]

Also, how did Cerberus form into a superpower with a military and navy that matched the Alliance?

That part seemed the most ridiculous to me

Same here. It's been quite some time since I've played ME2 but wasn't Shepard told that pretty much all of Cerberus' resources had gone into bringing him/her back and building the new Normandy, yet jump just a year or so into the future ( I know ME3 starts about 6 months after the end of 2 but never knew what amount of time 2 covered so guessing at about 6 months for that), suddenly they have a fleet of ships and not only an army of indoctrinated troops but full equipment for them too!

[capn233]

Also, how did Cerberus form into a superpower with a military and navy that matched the Alliance?

That part seemed the most ridiculous to me

 

Star Forge

[Killdren88]

Cerberus = Diamond dogs

Illusive man = Big Boss 

 

How dare you compare Big Boss to TIM.

[dreamgazer]

Also, how did Cerberus form into a superpower with a military and navy that matched the Alliance?

[citation needed]

As for their increase in personnel and ground troops, ME2 Cerberus was already retconned into being quite expansive, and the methods in which their military numbers further escalated is explained in-game.

[Ahglock]

Cerberus = Diamond dogs

Illusive man = Big Boss 

 

Cerberus=Cobra

Illusive Man= Cobra Commander

 

[Dantriges]

[citation needed]

As for their increase in personnel and ground troops, ME2 Cerberus was already retconned into being quite expansive, and the methods in which their military numbers further escalated is explained in-game.

 

The only statement I know is that Shep said to Joker at Chronos that Cerberus has better ships than the Alliance  but nothing about numbers. Perhaps it is somewhere in here: http://forum.bioware...e2-codex/page-2

 

The Sanctuary lampshade is a bit thin IMO.

[mybudgee]

Star Forge

*weeps with nostalgia*