78 réponses à ce sujet

[Estel Lavellan]

As explained by Morrigan, the only reason Corypheus' body surf ability can be disrupted is because he 'invested a portion of his being' into making the false Archdemon. This really brings up an uncomfortable notion, that Corypheus would have been effectively immortal had he not made the false Archdemon, since his body surf ability has no known maximum range and can be done with any blighted body. 

 

If this is the case, could the Inquisitor really have benefited from divine providence? That the Maker's hand ensured that Corypheus will inevitably have created the Red Lyrium Dragon and therefore will inevitably have a fatal weakness?

[Just My Moniker]

There can be only one answer

 

[BansheeOwnage]

As explained by Morrigan, the only reason Corypheus' body surf ability can be disrupted is because he 'invested a portion of his being' into making the false Archdemon. This really brings up an uncomfortable notion, that Corypheus would have been effectively immortal had he not made the false Archdemon, since his body surf ability has no known maximum range and can be done with any blighted body. 

 

If this is the case, could the Inquisitor really have benefited from divine providence? That the Maker's hand ensured that Corypheus will inevitably have created the Red Lyrium Dragon and therefore will inevitably have a fatal weakness?

If "Divine Providence" means "The writers put in a way for you to win", then yes.

[Jandi]

If "Divine Providence" means "The writers put in a way for you to win", then yes.

 

And since Gaider is the Maker, yes, yes indeed.

[Arshei]

If he is invincible, he sucks trying to destroy the world.

[Daerog]

The Grey Wardens imprisoned him before without the Mark. They couldn't kill him, but they could trap him.

 

If the Red Lyrium Dragon was not there, the Inquisition would probably have to discover how the ancient Wardens imprisoned him.

 

As for the Maker being involved or not... I don't know, my canon was a devout Loyalist who came to accept being the Herald and believed he was chosen. Was it the Maker? Was it some other Overbeing? It's all about faith, I guess... roleplaying faith, anyway.

 

 

 

 

What interests me is that Cory never really saw himself as a darkspawn, but the Architect only thought himself as one and knew nothing about not being a darkspawn. This makes me think that the Magisters Sidereal (The Seven) can be reborn through the blight itself, but they would lose their memories, which is why the devs had Cory die by a Fade rift so he would die in the Fade (sorta) and not be reborn through the blight.... that's just my theory, though...

[Estel Lavellan]

If "Divine Providence" means "The writers put in a way for you to win", then yes.

 

Well I see what you mean, but it does lend some form of credence to Varric's claim that 'you must be blessed by the Maker to have this uncanny good/bad luck' and Mother Giselle's general opinion on what if the Maker works in mysterious ways to make things work out. Frankly this almost inevitable 'coincidence' was not mentioned by the more devout characters in the story as evidence of divine providence on your side, and Corypheus' defeat being inevitable by divine mandate.

[Aulis Vaara]

If the Red Lyrium Dragon was not there, the Inquisition would probably have to discover how the ancient Wardens imprisoned him.

Would've been a better plot.

[Jandi]

Well I see what you mean, but it does lend some form of credence to Varric's claim that 'you must be blessed by the Maker to have this uncanny good/bad luck' and Mother Giselle's general opinion on what if the Maker works in mysterious ways to make things work out. Frankly this almost inevitable 'coincidence' was not mentioned by the more devout characters in the story as evidence of divine providence on your side, and Corypheus' defeat being inevitable by divine mandate.

 

Cory lost because writing. He had the power to raise the temple into the air... so why didn't he simply make Skyhold crumble into ruin with a violent eruption and kill everyone in one attack. You know, no armies, no "HERE I AM!" just... walk up to the fort at night and make the mountain it was sitting on explde and go home.

 

This is the inherent problem when there's too much power involved in plots, the "Heros triumph" becomes childish and unbelievable.

[AntiChri5]

Every victory the Inquisitor has is only possible as a result of Corypheus' hubris.

[Daerog]

Good point on the making parts of the landscape float being too much.

 

Cory didn't need to fight, he could have just lifted the land into the air, then have it plummet down, crashing with a lot of destruction, and then fight.

 

However, they emphasized his pride before that event happened to make the event more believable. Certainly, a more thoughtful villain, like the Architect, would have just slipped away into the shadows, knowing that he has time and there is no need to rush things.

[AntiChri5]

Cory lost because writing. He had the power to raise the temple into the air... so why didn't he simply make Skyhold crumble into ruin with a violent eruption and kill everyone in one attack. You know, no armies, no "HERE I AM!" just... walk up to the fort at night and make the mountain it was sitting on explde and go home.
 
This is the inherent problem when there's too much power involved in plots, the "Heros triumph" becomes childish and unbelievable.

Just because he is capable of doing it does not make it a good decision. He used the orb to do it and very shortly afterwards (after some other heavy use, granted) it shattered. All he did was use up Solas' battery.

[Jandi]

But that is such a lazy way to explain stupidity.

 

"Oh I'm smart and patient enough to hide till I can make the breach, get a Tevinter cult under my control, use an Envy demon to corrupt Templars, Trick Wardens into summoning demons for me but the one being that can percievably stop me? Yeah, I'll just go make speeches at them!"

[Jandi]

Just because he is capable of doing it does not make it a good decision. He used the orb to do it and very shortly afterwards (after some other heavy use, granted) it shattered. All he did was use up Solas' battery.

 

He could have wiped out the entire Inquisition command structure in one attack. If that's not a good decision then nothing is.

[Dai Grepher]

He could have remained immortal if not for him dividing that power with the dragon. But Corypheus probably assumed that no one would know how to kill him, or that even if they did, they would have no way to do so. They would have to kill a powerful dragon first, with Corypheus likely assisting it, and then they would have to kill Corypheus. And to do that, they would have to trap him so he couldn't escape. When you look at it that way, it would still be near impossible to kill him. So Corypheus saw it as an acceptable risk. Especially in light of what he would gain by it. A small price to pay, but it was still the fatal chìnk in the armor that led to his demise.

 

There is also an alternative option. It's possible that the anchor itself could have sent Corypheus' body and soul into the Fade in pieces. In which case he would not be able to respawn.

 

Personally, I think "kill the dragon first" was a lame way to go. It makes sense, but I think I would have gone with a multiple choice option. You could 1. Use the anchor to do what you did at the end of the game. 2. You could cast some sort of Dark Ritual spell to trick his soul into a fetus like what Flemeth planned for Urthemial. 3. You could use magic to bind his soul to an object, similar to how Eleni Zinovia was bound to a statue. 4. You could kill a Grey Warden, they reanimate him or her through necromancy and have that Warden strike a "final blow", destroying both souls.

[Dai Grepher]

Cory lost because writing. He had the power to raise the temple into the air... so why didn't he simply make Skyhold crumble into ruin with a violent eruption and kill everyone in one attack. You know, no armies, no "HERE I AM!" just... walk up to the fort at night and make the mountain it was sitting on explde and go home.

 

This is the inherent problem when there's too much power involved in plots, the "Heros triumph" becomes childish and unbelievable.

 

That's only because of the red lyrium. He couldn't have done the same with Skyhold.

[Jandi]

That's only because of the red lyrium. He couldn't have done the same with Skyhold.

 

Based on what, exactly?

[BansheeOwnage]

Well I see what you mean, but it does lend some form of credence to Varric's claim that 'you must be blessed by the Maker to have this uncanny good/bad luck' and Mother Giselle's general opinion on what if the Maker works in mysterious ways to make things work out. Frankly this almost inevitable 'coincidence' was not mentioned by the more devout characters in the story as evidence of divine providence on your side, and Corypheus' defeat being inevitable by divine mandate.

It doesn't really lend credence to the idea that you have divine providence, simply because it's incredibly common for protagonists to have incredible luck. Varric's right about that. In other words, it doesn't lend credence to the idea that you have divine providence any more than most other stories out there do. You can interpret it that way if you want, but if all those other protagonists can do stuff themselves, the Inquisitor (and company) can too.

 

Cory lost because writing. He had the power to raise the temple into the air... so why didn't he simply make Skyhold crumble into ruin with a violent eruption and kill everyone in one attack. You know, no armies, no "HERE I AM!" just... walk up to the fort at night and make the mountain it was sitting on explde and go home.

 

This is the inherent problem when there's too much power involved in plots, the "Heros triumph" becomes childish and unbelievable.

Yeah... it would have made a lot more sense if he never raised it up and you all got sucked into the fade to fight there instead, and would have been way cooler. The raised Temple is like a fade-wannabe As it was, I don't understand why he could have that much power and not crush you, or just demolish Skyhold by lifting it up and letting it fall. While riding his dragon, of course

[Ballax]

I think it would've made far more sense if he had managed to succeed (partially) despite our efforts and managed to force his way into the fade. Since he would be a whole dimension away from anyone carrying the taint when he died he had nowhere to go and either died, or if you choose force him to live on somehow as a powerless disembodied soul forever cursed to see the black city and never reach it. 

[Estel Lavellan]

Cory lost because writing. He had the power to raise the temple into the air... so why didn't he simply make Skyhold crumble into ruin with a violent eruption and kill everyone in one attack. You know, no armies, no "HERE I AM!" just... walk up to the fort at night and make the mountain it was sitting on explde and go home.

 

This is the inherent problem when there's too much power involved in plots, the "Heros triumph" becomes childish and unbelievable.

 

Actually I think this bit of plot is one that we should universally agree not to discuss...Because well, Corypheus is both powerful and essentially immortal, and he has a bloody superpowered dragon. And Samson is apparently invincible as well. So why not just kick down Skyhold's door himself? It's not like the early Skyhold inquisition has the ability to fend off even a normal high dragon, let alone the red lyrium one....And it's not like the inquisition is hidden in covert cells. Unless Skyhold has evil-proof shielding, I can't see a reason why Corypheus doesn't do that. 

 

It's such a game-breaking plot hole that I can't bear to delve further.

[Estel Lavellan]

It doesn't really lend credence to the idea that you have divine providence, simply because it's incredibly common for protagonists to have incredible luck. Varric's right about that. In other words, it doesn't lend credence to the idea that you have divine providence any more than most other stories out there do. You can interpret it that way if you want, but if all those other protagonists can do stuff themselves, the Inquisitor (and company) can too.

 

Yeah but haven't recent games began to either explain or at least lampshade the plot armour/protagonist-luck thing? For example in Skyrim the Last Dragonborn was foretold in a prophecy and is supposedly sent via divine providence to punish Alduin for abandoning his job, in Assassin's Creed you're essentially nudged in the general direction of destiny by higher powers...so I believe nowadays a more in-universe explanation can be applied to those things aside from 'he's lucky cuz protagonist'. Especially this game, since whether the protagonist was blessed by divine providence is an actual plot element. It's more relevant than in other games.

[Estel Lavellan]

Personally, I think "kill the dragon first" was a lame way to go. It makes sense, but I think I would have gone with a multiple choice option. You could 1. Use the anchor to do what you did at the end of the game. 2. You could cast some sort of Dark Ritual spell to trick his soul into a fetus like what Flemeth planned for Urthemial. 3. You could use magic to bind his soul to an object, similar to how Eleni Zinovia was bound to a statue. 4. You could kill a Grey Warden, they reanimate him or her through necromancy and have that Warden strike a "final blow", destroying both souls.

 

1. That actually had me wondering. What did we do to him with the anchor anyway? We just banished him into the Fade. Sure, he's sent in as a disembodied spirit, but do we know that a physical body is a requisite requirement for his plan? That he couldn't have entered the Black City anyway even as a disembodied spirit? Or couldn't some fade spirit mirror him as it did Justinia and create another Corypheus? It seemed simply blasting him into tiny pieces would have been easier and safer. Now we don't even know if he's dead for sure.

 

2. I'm pretty sure Corypheus's soul doesn't work the same way as an Old God soul, but whatever. More sex is always good in my book.

 

3. The binder has to be more magically powerful than the binded in order for this to work. Pretty sure you're less magically powerful (or at least knowledgeable) than Corypheus no matter what. Also, a binding ritual applied to a mortal soul is almost definitely not applicable the same way for a darkspawn/magister/red lyrium hybrid. And you have to know its nature in order to bind it. Corypheus kind of defies categorization, so...slim chance.

 

4. The game makes it plenty clear that Corypheus can't be soul-kaboomed in the same way as Archdemons, likely because of different natures. But that's still a fact.

[AntiChri5]

He could have wiped out the entire Inquisition command structure in one attack. If that's not a good decision then nothing is.

Do you mean at Haven, or Skyhold when he decided to lift a mountain?

If you mean at Haven, he had no need to. His forces utterly crushed the Inquisition. It only survived because if a secret passageway only one guy knew about, because it was willing to destroy Haven and because Solas had an awesome fortress in his pocket. If you meant the latter, he couldn't just walk into Skyhold to do so. He would have had to fight a lot more then what he fought by going back to the Temple. Which proved to be too much for him.

[Captmorgan72]

Maybe his resurrecting powers worked like a Lich. He created a phylactery (red lyrium dragon)  to store a portion of his soul into so when his body is destroyed he can reform via the taint. Maybe he created a phylactery before he was imprisoned by the Wardens and that is how he rose again after Hawke and company killed him. Flemeth used phylacteries to store a piece of herself in case her body was destroyed. She did it again before Solas killed her. When the red lyrium dragon was killed his remaining soul and power returned to him. Without a phylactery he will not be able to reform if his body is destroyed, which is what happens when the rift was opened inside of him. World of Thedas V 2 talks about an army of mages searching the fade in their dreams for evidence of Corypheus and none can be found. 

[AntiChri5]

Actually I think this bit of plot is one that we should universally agree not to discuss...Because well, Corypheus is both powerful and essentially immortal, and he has a bloody superpowered dragon. And Samson is apparently invincible as well. So why not just kick down Skyhold's door himself? It's not like the early Skyhold inquisition has the ability to fend off even a normal high dragon, let alone the red lyrium one....And it's not like the inquisition is hidden in covert cells. Unless Skyhold has evil-proof shielding, I can't see a reason why Corypheus doesn't do that. 

 

It's such a game-breaking plot hole that I can't bear to delve further.

It can't? Says who?

 

The day after the Inquisition finds Skyhold, sure, too weak to stand. By the time Corypheus knows that the Inquisition has survived, pinpoints Skyhold and gets troops in position to attack? By then months would have passed, and Skyhold would be strong enough to either hold them off or cost Corypheus a very very great deal.

 

This is all assuming Corypheus has any real intention of attacking the Inquisition, which he does not. He attacked Haven for two reasons. First, he was angry that the Inquisition got one of his armies. He suffered a loss and had to answer. But more importantly, he attacked Haven to get the Mark off the Herald. Something he concluded it was impossible to do. With his power demonstrated by destroying Haven and the anchor unrecoverable, he has no need to go toe to toe with the Inquisition. He certainly has no reason to suspect that they are a threat.

 

Let's not forget that the only reason the Inquisition is a threat to Corypheus is because they know exactly what he is going to do. Either the Inquisitor saw the future or the Inquisitor met someone who spent weeks/months hanging out with Corypheus' forces while capable of mind reading. Whichever it is, the Inquisition knows exactly what Corypheus has planned and is able to insert themselves into everything he is up to.

 

If not for knowledge the Inquisition had no reasonable way to have obtained, by the time they figured out their next move it would have been too late to stop Corypheus' plans. Orlais would have fallen and Corypheus would have a demon army. Game over.

 

So Corypheus would, at best, have to devote significant resources to destroying Skyhold all for no real strategic gain. At worst, he would spent almost everything he has directly confronting an enemy he has no reason to fight.