258 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Fenris can be killed to bu in universe he is alive- DG includes him in his new book.
Sten can be killed but he is in comics.
Why Michel shouldn't exist in Thedas  just for his haters? Developers should really work in the game now not thinging about fan endless love\hate.

Books aren't hard canon for the games, see Wynne in Asunder, and Sten can't actually be killed. You can only leave him behind in the cage, but we never see him die.

[ladyofpayne]

Books aren't hard canon for the games, see Wynne in Asunder, and Sten can't actually be killed. You can only leave him behind in the cage, but we never see him die.

He can. When he  attacked Warden in Heaven.

[d1ta]

@ladyofpayne:

I know how much you love Michel de Chevin and would really really want to have him as the next companion in DA4 (and that's totally cool, since everyone has their own favourite flavours of ice cream, yes? ) what I'm curious about is, will it be okay for you if there is a chevalier companion that will accompany the main protag, but just not Michel? (Just to avoid that 'Ser Michel can die in some PT' argument)

As for how could a chevalier ended up in Tevinter..? Well, I'm sure the writers can conjure up something if they really want a certain character to be there. Never thought to have an active Qunari member (and a Ben Hassrath to boot) as a companion in the heart of Chantry organization, but hey, we got IB (which is not a bad thing)

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

As for how could a chevalier ended up in Tevinter..?

Exile of course.

Havin Iron Bul in CHantry land isn't the same as having Qunari in their war torn lands.

[SetecAstronomy]

And if we simply wait to know that?

 

Patiently waiting on the BSN? You must be new here.

 

But to answer OP, the only existing party member I would like to see return is Dorian Pavus. And if they could throw in Brother Genetivi as my historical expert/advisor, I would not object.

[daveliam]

Books aren't hard canon for the games, see Wynne in Asunder, and Sten can't actually be killed. You can only leave him behind in the cage, but we never see him die.

 

The problem is that the books have become canon for the games.  For example, Cole very specifically mentions Wynne sacrificing herself for Rhys when you talk to him in DA: I.  So that negates the argument that the books/comics aren't canon.  In most cases, it's not a big deal, but I suspect that they are going to run into issues if they continue to use 'determinant' characters (like Wynne, Shale, or Alistair) in the books/comics because eventually, they will run into situations where a player's decision is going to get retconned.  And it might happen as soon as the next game if Maevaris is, indeed, a major character and she mentions the events of the comics since Alistair plays a role in those but is very dead in some playthroughs.

 

This is ultimately why I prefer that any determinant characters are relegated to minor roles in the games and are excluded from the books/comics altogether.  I don't have a problem with an Abelas or Michel or Shale or Feynriel showing up in DA4 if they are in a minor role that won't require them to be retconned back to life for every player.  Make them a random quest giver or NPC who can be missing or replaced if that character is dead.  This way they are present for their fans.  I also don't like the idea that a player's companion roster can get affected because of decisions that they made in prior games.  Yes, it's realistic for choices to make an impact.  But it potentially unbalances a player's gameplay if companions who play a particular combat role are missing because the player chose a minor decision 8+ years earlier.

 

And, lol, at the person who was claiming that it has to do with player 'blood lust'.  That's ridiculous on many levels.  For one, the characters that we are talking about aren't even killed because of a direct choice by the player; they are killed for opposing another decision that the player makes.  And in Abelas' case, he's not even killed by the PC at all; another character kills him.  Also, in my canon playthrough, all of those characters are alive and well.  But I have alt playthroughs where I explore the other choices to see the effect on the world and I don't want to see those one negatively affected because a random minor NPC happened to get a big fanbase so the devs resurrected him because of 'reason's.

[d1ta]

Heh, the stories Gentivi could tell. Wonder what he would say about finding the mural of mythal under the Temples of Sacred Ashes?

As for Dorian.. I love him lots, but would he be a companion or maybe taking the advisor/sponsor role?
... More importantly, would BW keep the ol' formula of mixing new "friends" + 1 or 2 familiar faces, or will they start a batch of new companions this time? (And relegate our old friends to advisory roles?) .. hmmn.. pondering

[daveliam]

Heh, the stories Gentivi could tell. Wonder what he would say about finding the mural of mythal under the Temples of Sacred Ashes?

As for Dorian.. I love him lots, but would he be a companion or maybe taking the advisor/sponsor role?
... More importantly, would BW keep the ol' formula of mixing new "friends" + 1 or 2 familiar faces, or will they start a batch of new companions this time? (And relegate our old friends to advisory roles?) .. hmmn.. pondering

 

I strongly suspect that Dorian won't be a companion again.  I think that there are two main reasons for this:  1.) He and Mae will have very similar roles in Tevinter and the devs have stated that they like Mae a lot so I would suspect only one of them to get companion status and the other to get "advisor/major NPC" status.  Dorian's story has been explored and Mae's is totally open; 2.)  He was an LI in the last game and he's gay.  They've stated that they won't repeat LI's in other games, so that means that he'd be non-romanceable in DA4.  Which would mean that we'd need 2 other gay/bisexual guys in our main squad, plus Dorian.  I just don't see that happening. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

I strongly suspect that Dorian won't be a companion again.  I think that there are two main reasons for this:  1.) He and Mae will have very similar roles in Tevinter and the devs have stated that they like Mae a lot so I would suspect only one of them to get companion status and the other to get "advisor/major NPC" status.  Dorian's story has been explored and Mae's is totally open; 2.)  He was an LI in the last game and he's gay.  They've stated that they won't repeat LI's in other games, so that means that he'd be non-romanceable in DA4.  Which would mean that we'd need 2 other gay/bisexual guys in our main squad, plus Dorian.  I just don't see that happening. 

 

I'm actually interested (and afraid) about what LI status their going to give Mae. Is she going to be one of the straight choices for males (which will probably cause a flame war in these forums so large that ME 3's ending will look like a snowball fight) or one of the gay/bisexual choices? Maybe they'll have 2/2/2 and Mae as a seventh choice? It's going to be tricky ground either way. Hope Bioware can handle it.

[Tielis]

And, lol, at the person who was claiming that it has to do with player 'blood lust'.  That's ridiculous on many levels.  For one, the characters that we are talking about aren't even killed because of a direct choice by the player; they are killed for opposing another decision that the player makes.  And in Abelas' case, he's not even killed by the PC at all; another character kills him.  Also, in my canon playthrough, all of those characters are alive and well.  But I have alt playthroughs where I explore the other choices to see the effect on the world and I don't want to see those one negatively affected because a random minor NPC happened to get a big fanbase so the devs resurrected him because of 'reason's.

 

And lol at person stalking me.

 

So Morrigan killed Abelas all by herself, did she?  You take no responsibility whatsoever?  Wow, I wish video games played themselves for me!  It would sure save a lot of hand cramps due to my disability!

 

Folks rejecting the way ME2 handled dead main characters are just throwing a temper tantrum at this point.  Seriously, you get to see the results of your actions, and those who did not kill get to see the results of theirs.

 

Throwing away interesting well developed characters for the sake of the illusion of choice is a bad precedent all its own.  It makes the game far less interesting as it could be.  Honestly, aside from Solas, I see the story getting blander and blander as we go along.  I have no desire to play through more than once, because everything ends up the same with some small random side notes here and there.  I played DAO through at least 20 times -- there was character development and there were big surprises.

 

"But they can't do that again because development cost reasons."  That is going to bite them in the ass down the line when another company decides to delve deep.  We're already seeing that in the Witcher series.  Though I won't play it due to its misogyny, I can laud it for not watering down the franchise.  It's a pity EA will slowly kill this one just like everything else it touches.

 

Edit because I thought about this some more.

 

I remember when I had Keldorn and Viconia in the same party in BG2.  They were bickering for the longest time, and then suddenly Keldorn draws his sword and kills her on the spot.  That was awesome.  Or if you had Shale in your party in the Deep Roads and you side with Branka, Shale fights to the death.  That won't happen anymore, because oh noes then we can't bring them back ever because somebody might have killed them!  Who cares what the Keep says!  They are DEAD DEAD DEAD in somebody's game!

 

Seriously, it wouldn't take all that much more work in the case of Abelas, and I'm sure things could be worked around in a similar fashion for other characters.  (That is, if they choose to ignore the fact that he's an ancient Elvhen who was knifed near a magical well.)  If Abelas is alive in your worldstate, you get him.  If he's dead in your worldstate, you get one of his sentinels that survived.  A few dialogues would have to be recorded twice, but I don't think that is too much of a price to pay for continuing storyline interest, as well as the gratitude of the fans who love that particular character.

[ladyofpayne]

Added: We shouldn\t expect our former LI too. Because of the resons. AS cameo or even importan NPC that it possible but not as follower.

[Andromelek]

I'm actually interested (and afraid) about what LI status their going to give Mae. Is she going to be one of the straight choices for males (which will probably cause a flame war in these forums so large that ME 3's ending will look like a snowball fight) or one of the gay/bisexual choices? Maybe they'll have 2/2/2 and Mae as a seventh choice? It's going to be tricky ground either way. Hope Bioware can handle it.

I highly doubt that she will be a LI option, is not only the little matter of that technically she is not a woman but morally she is, remember that she is also a widow, the last widow we've got as companion wasn't an option.

[ladyofpayne]

Also about Michel- we forget Alistair who can becoma drunkerd but this potion is ignored completely - he is star in comics.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I highly doubt that she will be a LI option, is not only the little matter of that technically she is not a woman but morally she is, remember that she is also a widow, the last widow we've got as companion wasn't an option.

 

Probably should of prefaced my comment with an if they have Mae as a LI option.

 

Anyways, your right, the safe bet is that Bioware probably not have her as a LI at all. But screw it, Bioware needs to grow an even bigger pair balls and do it anyway!

 

The arguments on the forum alone would be worth it. 

[Tielis]

I highly doubt that she will be a LI option, is not only the little matter of that technically she is not a woman but morally she is, remember that she is also a widow, the last widow we've got as companion wasn't an option.

 

Because the dead spouse syndrome is only foisted upon the love interests of female protagonists, apparently.

[AresKeith]

Also about Michel- we forget Alistair who can becoma drunkerd but this potion is ignored completely - he is star in comics.

 

Drunkerd =/= dead

[Andromelek]

Drunkerd =/= dead

You can kill him as well and he doesn't come back.

[daveliam]

I'm actually interested (and afraid) about what LI status their going to give Mae. Is she going to be one of the straight choices for males (which will probably cause a flame war in these forums so large that ME 3's ending will look like a snowball fight) or one of the gay/bisexual choices? Maybe they'll have 2/2/2 and Mae as a seventh choice? It's going to be tricky ground either way. Hope Bioware can handle it.

 

I really doubt that Mae would end up as an LI if she's a companion in DA4.  For one, I doubt that the general public is open to a transwoman romance.  She's clearly interested in male characters, so if she were an option, she should be for straight males and (if she's bisexual) lesbians.  But I don't think that this would be well received, given the blow back that Krem's gotten for just existing in the game.  For another, she's a widow and there's been a huge backlash against the sheer number of "Carth Syndrome" affected LI's.

 

And lol at person stalking me.

 

So Morrigan killed Abelas all by herself, did she?  You take no responsibility whatsoever?  Wow, I wish video games played themselves for me!  It would sure save a lot of hand cramps due to my disability!

 

Folks rejecting the way ME2 handled dead main characters are just throwing a temper tantrum at this point.  Seriously, you get to see the results of your actions, and those who did not kill get to see the results of theirs.

 

Throwing away interesting well developed characters for the sake of the illusion of choice is a bad precedent all its own.  It makes the game far less interesting as it could be.  Honestly, aside from Solas, I see the story getting blander and blander as we go along.  I have no desire to play through more than once, because everything ends up the same with some small random side notes here and there.  I played DAO through at least 20 times -- there was character development and there were big surprises.

 

"But they can't do that again because development cost reasons."  That is going to bite them in the ass down the line when another company decides to delve deep.  We're already seeing that in the Witcher series.  Though I won't play it due to its misogyny, I can laud it for not watering down the franchise.  It's a pity EA will slowly kill this one just like everything else it touches.

 

Edit because I thought about this some more.

 

I remember when I had Keldorn and Viconia in the same party in BG2.  They were bickering for the longest time, and then suddenly Keldorn draws his sword and kills her on the spot.  That was awesome.  Or if you had Shale in your party in the Deep Roads and you side with Branka, Shale fights to the death.  That won't happen anymore, because oh noes then we can't bring them back ever because somebody might have killed them!  Who cares what the Keep says!  They are DEAD DEAD DEAD in somebody's game!

 

Seriously, it wouldn't take all that much more work in the case of Abelas, and I'm sure things could be worked around in a similar fashion for other characters.  (That is, if they choose to ignore the fact that he's an ancient Elvhen who was knifed near a magical well.)  If Abelas is alive in your worldstate, you get him.  If he's dead in your worldstate, you get one of his sentinels that survived.  A few dialogues would have to be recorded twice, but I don't think that is too much of a price to pay for continuing storyline interest, as well as the gratitude of the fans who love that particular character.

 

Your 'slippery slope' argument is a fail.  No one is saying that no characters should be killed in future games.  People are asking that characters that can be killed are not retconned alive or, if optional, are not given major roles that could gimp the gameplay of some players.  You can have your precious Abelas (who I genuinely didn't dislike until you went on your diatribes about how you are being bullied because of liking him), just in a role that doesn't retcon other player's decisions or gimp them.  I just don't want to see characters being resurrected just because of a vocal fanbase. 

 

Your reasons for why he could be alive are very weak.  He's elvhen.  Okay?  But is there anything anywhere in the lore that suggests that elvhen can survive getting knifed to death?  He died near a magic well.  Okay?  Is it a magical healing well?  No?  Again is there any reason why you should expect to have resurrective powers in the well outside of a Hail Mary attempt at rationalizing away a retcon resurrection?

 

I'm less against the idea of having him being swapped out with another ancient elf if he's dead.  But then, that leads me to this question:  If he's so easily replaced with "Random Ancient Elf #2", is it even worth including him?  Why not just develop "Random Ancient Elf #2" into a fully developed character who can stand on his own instead of just being the equivalent of a palette swap for a dead character?

 

 

Because the dead spouse syndrome is only foisted upon the love interests of female protagonists, apparently.

 

Jaheira was the original "Carth Syndrome" character.  Steve was the most recent.  Neither are for female protagonists.

[Andromelek]

Probably should of prefaced my comment with an if they have Mae as a LI option.
 
Anyways, your right, the safe bet is that Bioware probably not have her as a LI at all. But screw it, Bioware needs to grow an even bigger pair balls and do it anyway!
 
The arguments on the forum alone would be worth it. 

Some people only wants to see the BSN burn

[berelinde]

He can. When he  attacked Warden in Heaven.

If he attacks the Warden in Haven, he doesn't die. He surrenders when his health drops past a certain point and the Warden has the option of sending him away or allowing him to rejoin the party.

 

As for characters I'd like to see in DA4, I'd like them to challenge "traditionalist" expectations.

 

- Gay male Knight in Shining Armor.

- Female Dalish warrior who believes in preserving her culture (like Velanna, but less racist)

- Dwarven LIs of both genders! After all this time, we're owed that much.

[ladyofpayne]

 

 

 Female Dalish warrior who believes in preserving her culture

Ariana from witch hunt?

[Tielis]

Ariana from witch hunt?

 

Can she die?  (LOL Sorry, just taking this point to its obviously ridiculous endpoint.)

[berelinde]

Ariana from witch hunt?

I was thinking more along the lines of "Merrill as a warrior," but that would work. I liked Merrill because she was proud of being Dalish, but her love of her culture didn't prevent her from befriending and recognizing the worth of non-elves.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't have a problem with the idea of the "gay knight in shining armor" character that's been talked about on these forums for a while; if I recall correctly that idea actually got started in direct response to ladyofpayne saying Blackwall definitely wouldn't be gay because he was the knight in shining armor of the group, though I'm sure some people came to it independently. 

 

My only issue is that I don't particularly want a knight in shining armor in the party. Or rather, there are so many other ideas I would rather see in the party. The three I put on my list; the tal-vashoth spirit warrior, the ash warrior, and the soporati soldier/reaver.

 

After them, I'd like to see a dwarf warrior - some variation of exiled dwarf warrior who wasn't a drunkard came very close to making my list, only to be replaced by the soporati.

 

And then I'd like to see some form of barbarian, whether it be avvar, chasind, or the oth of the Anderfels, though I could live with this one replacing the ash warrior.

 

Then I'd settle for a knight in shining armor, wherever they hailed from.

[daveliam]

I don't have a problem with the idea of the "gay knight in shining armor" character that's been talked about on these forums for a while; if I recall correctly that idea actually got started in direct response to ladyofpayne saying Blackwall definitely wouldn't be gay because he was the knight in shining armor of the group, though I'm sure some people came to it independently. 

 

My only issue is that I don't particularly want a knight in shining armor in the party. Or rather, there are so many other ideas I would rather see in the party. The three I put on my list; the tal-vashoth spirit warrior, the ash warrior, and the soporati soldier/reaver.

 

After them, I'd like to see a dwarf warrior - some variation of exiled dwarf warrior who wasn't a drunkard came very close to making my list, only to be replaced by the soporati.

 

And then I'd like to see some form of barbarian, whether it be avvar, chasind, or the oth of the Anderfels, though I could live with this one replacing the ash warrior.

 

Then I'd settle for a knight in shining armor, wherever they hailed from.

 

How about combining the KISA stereotype with the dwarf warrior?  I'd love to see a Rock Knocker KISA type in DA4 since we'll be dealing with dwarves in some capacity, I'm sure. 

 

I'd also love to see an Avvar, but I think that this could be a rogue (like a scout for his/her clan). 

 

I think the KISA conversation had been happening for a few years.  I remember talking about whether Aveline counted because sort of maybe if you squinted might have flirted with FemHawke.  The "Blackwall can't be a KISA because he's straight" stuff just punctuated why some of us really want to see that character since it would really challenge the way that people view LGBT characters in the setting.