657 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Iron Bull's personal quest gives you a chance to break him from the Qun. It's an important part of his character, because he can't be the Iron Bull unless you do break him from the Qun. The Chargers are symbolic of The Iron Bull and everything that carries to his character. You kill them, you are killing off every part of him that wasn't loyal to the Qun.

 

Remember Solas's quote to him? "I can't be disappointed by your decisions. As a mindless, soulless drone, you could never make any."

 

The Qun is serious ****. It's not good and it doesn't make the world butterfly and rainbows. It mind breaks it's followers, chews them up and wears them down to the bone then tosses them out when they're done. If you didn't feel Bull was worth pulling from that, then there's nothing left of the Iron Bull by the time he rejoins us in Trespasser.

 

The way I see it, Iron Bull had spent 10 years getting **** on in Seheron for the Qun. He did the best he could in a shitty situation, he wanted to help people, he wanted to do good. The qunari worked him so hard they burnt him out, they drove him to consider suicide because he didn't know how else to go forward.

 

The Qun got enough out of the Iron Bull, in my opinion. It's time to give him a chance to be something of his own choosing.

 

Also this. Qun!Bull is not iron Bull he's HIssrad. There is a difference people.

[Dai Grepher]

Here's my view:

You do his personal quest, and tell him that the Qun comes before anything by letting the Chargers die or, you ignore his personal quest, which means that he's still Hissrad, which literally translates to "liar". He tells you right up front, he's a spy, sent to infiltrate your inner circle. You allow him to infiltrate your inner circle, and you're surprised when he *gasp* does his job? Alternatively:

You do his personal quest, and save the Chargers and, *gasp* he becomes Tal Vashoth, and doesn't turn on you, because you show him that friendship/people matter more than an ideology.

 

No. Not surprised at all. My problem is that he sided with Vidasala, who had violated the demands of the Qun, failed in her plans, allowed the bas to get a hold of the gattlock, and was obviously operating on bits and pieces of information to come to an incorrect conclusion. Hissrad should absolutely side with the Qun, but Vidasala is not the Qun. Those circumstances called for Hissrad to side with the winners and remain in his role as a spy.

 

Yeah, but Vidasala offers to take him back as Hissrad. And if friends and people matter more than ideology, then stopping a dangerous Inquisitor should be a priority. Again, context, circumstances, beliefs. All these should have played a part in Hissrad's/The Iron Bull's decision, not simply the choice to leave the Qun or stick to it.
 

[leaguer of one]

No. Not surprised at all. My problem is that he sided with Vidasala, who had violated the demands of the Qun, failed in her plans, allowed the bas to get a hold of the gattlock, and was obviously operating on bits and pieces of information to come to an incorrect conclusion. Hissrad should absolutely side with the Qun, but Vidasala is not the Qun. Those circumstances called for Hissrad to side with the winners and remain in his role as a spy.

 

Yeah, but Vidasala offers to take him back as Hissrad. And if friends and people matter more than ideology, then stopping a dangerous Inquisitor should be a priority. Again, context, circumstances, beliefs. All these should have played a part in Hissrad's/The Iron Bull's decision, not simply the choice to leave the Qun or stick to it.
 

Sorry the fact she has the anaatam helping her ready to sweep thedas as her plan succeeds means she is fallowing the qun. This is a culture which have spies watching their own people. They are not go to not know what she's doing.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

I was concerned Iron Bull would turn on the Inquisitor no matter what happened. I'm pleased I was wrong.

[Dai Grepher]

1. Yes it would success. They targeted every noble house and in Thedas the nobles control and man the army. if no nobles were around, there would be no way to organize an army to feild in time. The army of southern thedas would be too  disordered to make a proper fight. That was the entire point of the operation. They even tell you this in the dlc. And the only reason it failed was because of Solas.

 

2.And ofcouse Bull would no about Solas. Do have any Idea what a qun loyal bull is doing for the past 2 years? He's not stuck in shyhold. The qun can contact him in any ways about the plan. Even then he know in trespasser the inquisition may taken apart the the inquisitor is dying. The fact the Inquisitor is being killed slowly  by the mark they is reason enough to slow them down.

 

You trying to make it not make sense to support your delusions. Sorry but facts are fact.

 

1. Even if that were true, the lords' generals would simply step up and take command. Like how the Couslands took control when Flemeth killed Conobar. Assassinating a leader could make the holding stronger if there is a more capable general under that leader.

 

Again, where is that proof? I saw nothing of the antaam standing ready to sweep the south. Only that they declared no knowledge of Vidasala's activities.

 

Solas helped foil it, sure. But that doesn't mean it would have succeeded otherwise.

 

2. Yeah, but Solas didn't makes his move until Vidasala made hers against the south. So Hissrad didn't know about Solas. And if Hissrad had known about some Dragon's Breath plot, then why did they send him back to the Inquisition? They would have simply kept him with Vidasala. And if Hissrad knew about the plot and was with the Inquisition anyway, then why didn't he try to kill the Inquisitor earlier in the DLC, like when in the Crossroads or Shattered Library where he could have simply pushed the Inquisitor off a cliff? So did the Qunari keep Hissrad in the dark, or is it that Vidasala was acting on her own without authorization and had no way to contact Hissrad until the last minute? I for one doubt the Qunari would have sent Hissrad back to the Inquisition in the first place if the operation had been officially sanctioned.

 

That was a rude comment leaguer. And you have posted no facts regarding Hissrad's knowledge, even when I directly asked you for some.
 

[Arvaarad]

The qunari die because they wanted to control every aspect of the mission and not let their allies have any input

And which Qunari are those? The ones actually on the dreadnought, or the tamassrans who arranged the mission?

Just because both of those groups are "the Qunari" doesn't mean they're interchangeable. I might as well say that Rainier's men deserve to hang because they had the misfortune of following a traitor.

Neither of the groups in Bull's mission deserve to be sacrificed, so it comes down to whether six of my people are worth more than one hundred strangers.

Of course, we never actually see those strangers on the dreadnought. So they're not real, right? My people are real, so I'll sacrifice strangers at a rate of 16:1 in order to save them. Plus, with the Qunari weakened, the world will be a better place, right? What are a few non-real lives, if the world is better at the end of it all?

It sure is a good thing that we never actually met any of the people manning the dreadnought, or we might have to confront the same angst that Solas is facing now.

[leaguer of one]

1. Even if that were true, the lords' generals would simply step up and take command. Like how the Couslands took control when Flemeth killed Conobar. Assassinating a leader could make the holding stronger if there is a more capable general under that leader.

 

Again, where is that proof? I saw nothing of the antaam standing ready to sweep the south. Only that they declared no knowledge of Vidasala's activities.

 

Solas helped foil it, sure. But that doesn't mean it would have succeeded otherwise.

 

2. Yeah, but Solas didn't makes his move until Vidasala made hers against the south. So Hissrad didn't know about Solas. And if Hissrad had known about some Dragon's Breath plot, then why did they send him back to the Inquisition? They would have simply kept him with Vidasala. And if Hissrad knew about the plot and was with the Inquisition anyway, then why didn't he try to kill the Inquisitor earlier in the DLC, like when in the Crossroads or Shattered Library where he could have simply pushed the Inquisitor off a cliff? So did the Qunari keep Hissrad in the dark, or is it that Vidasala was acting on her own without authorization and had no way to contact Hissrad until the last minute? I for one doubt the Qunari would have sent Hissrad back to the Inquisition in the first place if the operation had been officially sanctioned.

 

That was a rude comment leaguer. And you have posted no facts regarding Hissrad's knowledge, even when I directly asked you for some.
 

1. The lord's don't have general, they have knight and commanders and they are part of the noble house hold. They would be taken out with the lord.

 

2.What does that matter? The issue with weather or not he was part of Vidasala's plan or not. Know about Solas or not has nothing to do with that. Solas only became an issue because he let the qunari plan be known. By then they knew some one was trying to stop them. They still attempt at it, failed, and change plans to go after Solas any way who they just called the Agent of Fen'heral. Even then Vidasala state all this from the library in the cross roads, she did not name Solas which still did not matter.

And no they did not leave bull in the dark if he is qun loyal. He just does not tell you all the details because his not going to tip off their plan.

 

And it's not a rude comment. it's the truth. You trying to find fault in this so you can say in make no sense. Sorry but you wrong.

[Ryzaki]

And which Qunari are those? The ones actually on the dreadnought, or the tamassrans who arranged the mission?

Just because both of those groups are "the Qunari" doesn't mean they're interchangeable. I might as well say that Rainier's men deserve to hang because they had the misfortune of following a traitor.

Neither of the groups in Bull's mission deserve to be sacrificed, so it comes down to whether six of my people are worth more than one hundred strangers.

Of course, we never actually see those strangers on the dreadnought. So they're not real, right? My people are real, so I'll sacrifice strangers at a rate of 16:1 in order to save them. Plus, with the Qunari weakened, the world will be a better place, right? What are a few non-real lives, if the world is better at the end of it all?

It sure is a good thing that we never actually met any of the people manning the dreadnought, or we might have to confront the same angst that Solas is facing now.

 

Fair point for the bolded. I should change that to the qunari lose men because they decided to control every part of the mission and I didn't feel like paying for their mistakes.

 

Nah they didn't deserve to hang because they followed him. They deserved to hang because of their actual crime. 

 

Who said they weren't real? But yeah I'd take the mercenary company that's actually contributing to my organization over a maybe alliance with a control freak that already nearly ended in disaster.

 

(Also given the attitude of the normal qunari soldier we meet knowing them for a few minutes would probably make me more inclined to sacrifice them. Between the women can't fight attitudes and the OMG MAGE EVIL BURN THE WITCH I couldn't save the chargers fast enough. The Antaam aren't exactly polite and friendly given DAO and DA2).

 

100 people (on a mission that went south) isn't the same as remaking the veil. Jesus people really are trying to give Solas a pass for that aren't they?

[Nixou]

Just because both of those groups are "the Qunari" doesn't mean they're interchangeable. I might as well say that Rainier's men deserve to hang because they had the misfortune of following a traitor. 

 

 

Or that southern Thedosians deserve to be conquered and forcefully reeducated because they obeyed corrupt noblemen... Which is exactly the logic the Qunari leadership adheres to.

[Dai Grepher]

1. Yes, the entire trespasser dlc is proof. The very plot of the dlc and main conflict of it is the proof.

 

2. She's fallowing the qun. the fact the armies  of the anaatm are ready to swoop in one her plans suceed means she is fallowing the qun.

 

3.Why would he? Nothing is there to make him want to go back to the qun ever. it's about him learning that he can live outside the qun. he has too much in souther thedas to go back, so that makes no sense.

 

4. The entire dlc starts out about the fate the the inquisition with the nobles wanting to end it or make it a part of orlas. Sorry, but that's a huge hint the inquisition maybe closing up shop. And that not want the qun want. They want to end all the noble house, control all the pesent folk, and control magic so it won't destroy the world.

 

5. and the only reason why it fail was because of Solas. Their goal then shifted to taking him out, which the quis did not want because they needed him to stop the mark from  them. Slow the quis down is a death sentence for the quis because over time the mark will kill them.

 

1. No, I think you are misinterpreting it. If I am wrong, then prove it. Cite specific examples.

 

2. She's following the Qun by doing what exactly? Feeding lyrium to serebaas? Operating on suspicions instead of facts? Being blatantly incorrect?

 

3. But he wanted to be Qunari. It was that the Qunari declared him Tal-Vashoth as to why he left it. So if the opportunity arose to go back, then he would take it. Unless you proved to him that the Qun was a lie, or that the Inquisition was the truth, or that he didn't need the Qun or whatever. I'm just saying that being declared Tal-Vashoth shouldn't be enough to make him never accept the Qun again.

 

4. May be closing up shop. Not that it would. I say it's better to have Hissrad as a spy in the Inquisition no matter what comes, so that the Qunari can know exactly how to respond to it. That was Hissrad's purpose after all.

 

Wait, the Inquisition closing isn't what the Qun wants? Well then in that case, Vidasala was Tal-Vashoth, because all she talked about was how the southern leaders were doing nothing to curb the Inquisition, which is why she stepped in.

 

5. Solas thwarted the plot, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have still failed anyway. The Inquisitor didn't know about Solas until after the Davaarad operation was destroyed. Hissrad died before the revelation. Also, it isn't clear that the mark is killing the Inquisitor until the meeting right before going to the Davaarad, and Hissrad was not present for that conversation. AND, if the plot was to kill the Inquisitor, then why didn't Hissrad do it in the Shattered Library? Your theory does not work.

[Dai Grepher]

What does that matter? The issue is if he learn to live without  the qun to be loyal, you need the charger to do that or it not possible. If you don't get him to learn that with the charger still alive he still turns on you. That still mean the issue is learning to live with out the qun.

 

Right, but the person I was replying to said it was about the Chargers. I pointed out that it was not about the them, but rather about Bull giving up the Qun.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Approval does not matter. What matter is belief. If a guy believe that he must do everything for his culture for sacrificing his closest friend, lover, and his self for it, then it's pretty clear how much he approves of the person he must sacrifice does not matter.

 

Every member of the chargers he has high approval of,possibly even more so then the Quis, YET HE AS A QUNARI LOYAL AGENT LET THEM ALL DIE!!!!!!!

 

Sorry, if you don't want him to turn out you you have to change his belief.

 

Right, belief. And if the Inquisition's actions have fit Hissrad's Qunari beliefs so far, then he has no reason to fight the Inquisitor.

 

I never said it was about approval of the person. It was about approval of the actions.

 

You clearly aren't reading my posts adequately enough. I wrote that I did want Hissrad to attack me and I did want to kill him. My problem is that the circumstances of the game were poorly written. He had no reason to side with Vidasala other than he was a fool who fotgot all his Ben-Hassrath training and could not see that this was not an official Qunari operation.
 

Basically, he wasn't being loyal to the Qun. He was blindly following the orders of a Tal-Vashoth. That's the problem I have, not that he attacked me. I wanted him to attack. I wanted to fight him. I wanted to kill him. But I wanted it under logical circumstances, not this slapped together "plot".

[Dai Grepher]

Do not that all want to invade all of thedas and covert everyone to the qun. Peaceful Dialogue is impossible as long as they think this way. The only reason to let Bull in  is to slow down any invasion that can happen in the future.

 

Yeah, fine. I'm just saying that is how some would approach the choice.

[leaguer of one]

1. No, I think you are misinterpreting it. If I am wrong, then prove it. Cite specific examples.

 

2. She's following the Qun by doing what exactly? Feeding lyrium to serebaas? Operating on suspicions instead of facts? Being blatantly incorrect?

 

3. But he wanted to be Qunari. It was that the Qunari declared him Tal-Vashoth as to why he left it. So if the opportunity arose to go back, then he would take it. Unless you proved to him that the Qun was a lie, or that the Inquisition was the truth, or that he didn't need the Qun or whatever. I'm just saying that being declared Tal-Vashoth shouldn't be enough to make him never accept the Qun again.

 

4. May be closing up shop. Not that it would. I say it's better to have Hissrad as a spy in the Inquisition no matter what comes, so that the Qunari can know exactly how to respond to it. That was Hissrad's purpose after all.

 

Wait, the Inquisition closing isn't what the Qun wants? Well then in that case, Vidasala was Tal-Vashoth, because all she talked about was how the southern leaders were doing nothing to curb the Inquisition, which is why she stepped in.

 

5. Solas thwarted the plot, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have still failed anyway. The Inquisitor didn't know about Solas until after the Davaarad operation was destroyed. Hissrad died before the revelation. Also, it isn't clear that the mark is killing the Inquisitor until the meeting right before going to the Davaarad, and Hissrad was not present for that conversation. AND, if the plot was to kill the Inquisitor, then why didn't Hissrad do it in the Shattered Library? Your theory does not work.

1. the entire dragons breath plan which is stated to you in the dlc. If you played the dlc, you'd know the anaatam is backing them.

 

2.Doing what she can to control the south, it's magic, and it's people. which is stated to be a demand of the Qun. By that logic Qunari loyal Bull is not fallowing the qun being that he is sleep with so many people and drinking about.

 

3.The issue is if he learn to live with out the qun or not. He does that with the inquisitor and the chargers. Sorry, he has no reason to go back. the only reason he'd go back if he became a rampaging monster.

 

4.His perpuse is ending and he was shift to a new one. Pure and simple.

 

5.Yes, it would fail. The entire plan was based on surprise. if people know about it the noble can be kept safe, the armies can be readied, and the invasion can be countered. the plan can no longer succeed because the south's chain of command is still in place. And knowing about Solas does not matter. All Bull needs to know that there is an agent of fen'heral to do his job not who  he is.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah, fine. I'm just saying that is how some would approach the choice.

But that's not the qun or in their character.  What's in the plot is what make sense to it.

[Arvaarad]

Fair point for the bolded. I should change that to the qunari lose men because they decided to control every part of the mission and I didn't feel like paying for their mistakes.

Nah they didn't deserve to hang because they followed him. They deserved to hang because of their actual crime.

Who said they weren't real? But yeah I'd take the mercenary company that's actually contributing to my organization over a maybe alliance with a control freak that already nearly ended in disaster.

(Also given the attitude of the normal qunari soldier we meet knowing them for a few minutes would probably make me more inclined to sacrifice them. Between the women can't fight attitudes and the OMG MAGE EVIL BURN THE WITCH I couldn't save the chargers fast enough. The Antaam aren't exactly polite and friendly given DAO and DA2).

100 people (on a mission that went south) isn't the same as remaking the veil. Jesus people really are trying to give Solas a pass for that aren't they?

I'm actually not trying to give Solas a pass. I think his plan is bad, and I think sacrificing the dreadnought is bad.

I can understand where he's coming from, though. And I can understand why people prefer to save the Chargers. But personally, I think both decisions are wrong, and both have more than a whiff of xenophobia.

[Dai Grepher]

Free mages doesn't mean the South isn't at peace however. (not to mention the south being chaotic would actually help the Qunari). Also the Inquisition stands for closing the breach. Everything else is window dressing. (not to mention via Trespasser all the choices get funneled into nearly the same thing ultimately anyway so)

 

But that's not what the quest is about. There is no proving the Inquisition isn't a threat there.

 

Yes because he's still with the Qun. The Chargers can cause him to leave the Qun because he's forced to choose between yes it doesn't mean they automatically do so (otherwise he would've been Tal Vashoth when you met him). But if the chargers aren't in danger there's no reason for him to leave the Qun. He leaves for them so they can live. If there's no need for that he doesn't leave the Qun. He doesn't go "oh I have my chargers let's leave the Qun!" it's "I have to choose between the Qun or my Chargers because I'm going to lose one."  If the chargers aren't in danger he can just keep both. He has to be forced to choose.

 

But it means mages run free. Which hinders any possible Qunari invasion in the future. The Qunari don't want the south to be chaotic. They want it to be orderly when they take it over so that order is never lost, thus never needing to be restored. The fact everything is funneled is why Trespasser is a bad DLC.

 

In Demands of the Qun? Of course they prove it. That's what Gatt outright tells you. Either you are worthy of an alliance, or you can't be trusted.

 

I know that. My point is that the Chargers have nothing to do with his choice to side with Vidasala.
 

[leaguer of one]

Right, belief. And if the Inquisition's actions have fit Hissrad's Qunari beliefs so far, then he has no reason to fight the Inquisitor.

 

I never said it was about approval of the person. It was about approval of the actions.

 

You clearly aren't reading my posts adequately enough. I wrote that I did want Hissrad to attack me and I did want to kill him. My problem is that the circumstances of the game were poorly written. He had no reason to side with Vidasala other than he was a fool who fotgot all his Ben-Hassrath training and could not see that this was not an official Qunari operation.
 

Basically, he wasn't being loyal to the Qun. He was blindly following the orders of a Tal-Vashoth. That's the problem I have, not that he attacked me. I wanted him to attack. I wanted to fight him. I wanted to kill him. But I wanted it under logical circumstances, not this slapped together "plot".

That's not how it works. Action in line with belief just added to approval. that's all. it does not mean that action is going to change said belief. Or even make then change sides. As long as bull fallows the qun it's impossible for him to side with the inquisitor over the qun. Why? because the qun is more important than anything else in his eyes. No form of action, belief or anything is going to change that as long as he is loyal to the qun.

[Ryzaki]

I'm actually not trying to give Solas a pass. I think his plan is bad, and I think sacrificing the dreadnought is bad.

I can understand where he's coming from, though. And I can understand why people prefer to save the Chargers. But personally, I think both decisions are wrong, and both have more than a whiff of xenophobia.

 

One of those races have it in their religious texts that everyone is forced to swallow to spread their religion all over the world and forcibly convert those who won't fall in line (assuming they don't just kill them) so they can be brainwashed (with drugs to the point that they can't even clean themselves if necessary) and forced to follow the Qun and the other while an ass that would kill everyone for his people still believes in free will and self determination.

 

Solas is insane but I'd still take him over the Qun. Least he acknowledges my right to think for myself and stab him if necessary.

[leaguer of one]

But it means mages run free. Which hinders any possible Qunari invasion in the future. The Qunari don't want the south to be chaotic. They want it to be orderly when they take it over so that order is never lost, thus never needing to be restored. The fact everything is funneled is why Trespasser is a bad DLC.

 

In Demands of the Qun? Of course they prove it. That's what Gatt outright tells you. Either you are worthy of an alliance, or you can't be trusted.

 

I know that. My point is that the Chargers have nothing to do with his choice to side with Vidasala.
 

Free mages don't matter if there is no line of command to organize them. Their is no way the mages can be a hindrance to anything with out a command line.

[Dai Grepher]

Sorry the fact she has the anaatam helping her ready to sweep thedas as her plan succeeds means she is fallowing the qun. This is a culture which have spies watching their own people. They are not go to not know what she's doing.

 

She was running through eluvians. The antaam had no way of tracking her. And she was the head of her division. She was the most trusted person for the role. When she went rogue, the Qunari had no way of knowing what she planned or what she would do.
 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I was the opposite. His actions in Trespasser actually made me give him some respect with him being willing to give his life for what he believed was the will of his nation. In the vanilla game I had no respect for him whatsoever. 

[Ryzaki]

But it means mages run free. Which hinders any possible Qunari invasion in the future. The Qunari don't want the south to be chaotic. They want it to be orderly when they take it over so that order is never lost, thus never needing to be restored. The fact everything is funneled is why Trespasser is a bad DLC.

 

In Demands of the Qun? Of course they prove it. That's what Gatt outright tells you. Either you are worthy of an alliance, or you can't be trusted.

 

I know that. My point is that the Chargers have nothing to do with his choice to side with Vidasala.
 

 

Mages never run completely free no matter what you've picked. The most you get is some mages go into a college and the others go into circles (not to mention the qunari already consider the circles too loose in restrictions). If it's orderly they won't be able to take over in the first place. They can't afford to fight a war on two fronts. That was the point of dragon's breath.

 

It wasn't a test of character for the Inquisition. It just showed the Inquisitor wasn't willing to sacrifice their forces for them and they pulled out because of it. Neither group wanted to be walked all over.

 

Yes they do in the sense that Bull won't leave the Qun unless it's a choice between the Qun or his chargers. Otherwise he doesn't leave the Qun. He was willing to become Tal Vashoth for them. That's the significance of it.
 

[QueenCrow]

I'm sorry but that's awesome. Wow. Ouch!

 

I have been privately corrected and reminded that there are some people, sometimes with interest also in bdsm (which I suppose relates to Iron Bull), who find mild public humiliation exciting or arousing.  I suppose if Bioware has offered the public humiliation ending of the Inquisitor for those people, then I'm not going to judge. Now those fetishists who appreciate the virtual mockery know where to find it.

 

For those who wander into that ending unwittingly and don't enjoy such things, it's just a cheap shot.

[Kurogane335]

One of those races have it in their religious texts that everyone is forced to swallow to spread their religion all over the world and forcibly convert those who won't fall in line (assuming they don't just kill them).

You're talking about the Chantry right ? Because right there, in the Chant of Light, it is made manifest that the whole world has to be converted to the worship of the Maker. And in the way they acted against the elves.