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[Ryzaki]

You're talking about the Chantry right ? Because right there, in the Chant of Light, it is made manifest that the whole world has to be converted to the worship of the Maker. And in the way they acted against the elves.

 

Where's all the forceful conversion to the Chant of Light? I have constantly said in front of chantry members I don't believe in the maker. I wonder how it'd go for a young Qunari telling their priesthood they don't believe in the Qun?

 

Also the elves were about far more than religion and that fight was hardly one sided.

[Kurogane335]

Where's all the forceful conversion to the Chant of Light?

 

Also the elves were about far more than religion and that fight was hardly one sided.

They are called the Exalted Marches. And the way people converting to the Qun are immediately killed (like Seamus in DA II) is enough of an indication about how one has to be part of the Andrastian. Or the way apostates are (well, were) hunted. The Chantry support a whole system of society, just like the Qun or the Imperial Chantry. And all three of them want to reign supreme.

[QueenCrow]

 have it in their religious texts that everyone is forced to swallow to spread their religion all over the world and forcibly convert those who won't fall in line (assuming they don't just kill them) so they can be brainwashed (with drugs to the point that they can't even clean themselves if necessary) and forced to follow t

 

I just realized the irony.  Take out Qun and Dragon Age related stuff and you have a decent description of the real medieval inquisition - religion organized to combat anything considered apostatic or heretical to Christianity.

 

Apologies for the kind of related and maybe relevant tangent.  I just started wondering, just now, if there is some further significance to the choice of "Inquisition" and I'm thinking there is.

[Ryzaki]

They are called the Exalted Marches. And the way people converting to the Qun are immediately killed (like Seamus in DA II) is enough of an indication about how one has to be part of the Andrastian. Or the way apostates are (well, were) hunted. The Chantry support a whole system of society, just like the Qun or the Imperial Chantry. And all three of them want to reign supreme.

 

Exalted marches can be for political reasons. (like the one that was going to be done to Kirkwall). It's not an automatic "convert them to Andraste!"

 

Also what? No it isn't. Peatrice was an outcast (it's why the grand mother tells her to hand herself in). That was illegal. Peatrice was a fanatic the game says this time and time again. Actually I'm glad you brought up DA2! I had forgotten about how the chantry sees people converting to the Qun. Their reaction isn't to start an exalted march but to try to persuade people back. If that is a failure then it just fails. Peatrice and her templar companion were angry because of that! And that's why they and their underground group of fanatics captured the Qunari and tried to force everyone else into war. So thanks for that point

[leaguer of one]

She was running through eluvians. The antaam had no way of tracking her. And she was the head of her division. She was the most trusted person for the role. When she went rogue, the Qunari had no way of knowing what she planned or what she would do.
 

Her home base is in qunari land. They just have to go to her base and wait till she comes back. Hell, they even sent letters to her. People under her command even sent letters out.

[leaguer of one]

You're talking about the Chantry right ? Because right there, in the Chant of Light, it is made manifest that the whole world has to be converted to the worship of the Maker. And in the way they acted against the elves.

I don't see them do that now. In fact, based on who is divine it only done words only.

[leaguer of one]

They are called the Exalted Marches. And the way people converting to the Qun are immediately killed (like Seamus in DA II) is enough of an indication about how one has to be part of the Andrastian. Or the way apostates are (well, were) hunted. The Chantry support a whole system of society, just like the Qun or the Imperial Chantry. And all three of them want to reign supreme.

None are happening now. If fact that last one that was done was out of defense.

[Dai Grepher]

1. The lord's don't have general, they have knight and commanders and they are part of the noble house hold. They would be taken out with the lord.

 

2.What does that matter? The issue with weather or not he was part of Vidasala's plan or not. Know about Solas or not has nothing to do with that. Solas only became an issue because he let the qunari plan be known. By then they knew some one was trying to stop them. They still attempt at it, failed, and change plans to go after Solas any way who they just called the Agent of Fen'heral. Even then Vidasala state all this from the library in the cross roads, she did not name Solas which still did not matter.

And no they did not leave bull in the dark if he is qun loyal. He just does not tell you all the details because his not going to tip off their plan.

 

And it's not a rude comment. it's the truth. You trying to find fault in this so you can say in make no sense. Sorry but you wrong.

 

1. Yeeeeesssss, they do. I gave you an example. Connobar was Teyrn of Highever. Flemeth killed him. Connobar's general, a Cousland, took over.

 

2. Because if he did know about the plot then sending him back to the Inquisition would have put the mission at risk. He might have let the information slip, either to the Inquisitor, or to Cole. And there was no guarantee that the Inquisition would not capture and interrogate him immediately upon either discovering the plot, or surviving the plot, or the plot going wrong, or just out of sheer paranoia.

 

And the point is that if Hissrad knew nothing of Solas being involved, then he had no reason to believe the Inquisitor was working with Solas or the elven spirits. From Hissrad's perspective of not knowing anything and discovering the situation as the Inquisitor did, he would conclude that Vidasala was drawing incorrect conclusions about the Inquisition, and as far as he knew, putting the alliance at risk. Putting his position in the Inquisition at risk.

 

But again, if Hissrad knew the plan from the start, then why didn't he attack the Inquisitor before he could stop Dragon's Breath? Why didn't he attack in the Shattered Library? What, were they bidding their time while Hissrad cut down one fellow Qunari after another?

 

Well then disagree with me and write that I'm wrong. Don't call my argument a delusion. That's rude. If you want to refute my argument then post facts. I have asked you for facts. You keep posting arguments as to why it makes sense to you. That's fine, but if you want to prove that this was an official Qunari operation and end my argument completely, then show me a letter from the antaam sanctioning Vidasala's actions. Show me a report being written from Vidasala to the antaam as to what she's doing. Unless you can make the connection between Vidasala and Par Vollen, you only have a theory.

[Dai Grepher]

1. the entire dragons breath plan which is stated to you in the dlc. If you played the dlc, you'd know the anaatam is backing them.

 

2.Doing what she can to control the south, it's magic, and it's people. which is stated to be a demand of the Qun. By that logic Qunari loyal Bull is not fallowing the qun being that he is sleep with so many people and drinking about.

 

3.The issue is if he learn to live with out the qun or not. He does that with the inquisitor and the chargers. Sorry, he has no reason to go back. the only reason he'd go back if he became a rampaging monster.

 

4.His perpuse is ending and he was shift to a new one. Pure and simple.

 

5.Yes, it would fail. The entire plan was based on surprise. if people know about it the noble can be kept safe, the armies can be readied, and the invasion can be countered. the plan can no longer succeed because the south's chain of command is still in place. And knowing about Solas does not matter. All Bull needs to know that there is an agent of fen'heral to do his job not who  he is.

 

1. Show me proof that the antaam was backing them. Show me they knew about it. So far, Dragon's Breath was created by Vidasala and was carried out by Vidasala without authorization. She probably saw it as doing her duty, but so what? So did the DA2 Arishok, and he had no contact with Par Vollen at all. All I see is an epilogue slide stating that the Qunari said they knew NOTHING of Vidasala's plans and denied any involvement in it or in authorizing it. Now you'd say, "Well of course they would say that". And you'd be right. But without evidence that they backed the plan, you cannot claim for certain that they didn't have any involvement.

 

2. But Hissrad's role is to sleep around and drink in order to infiltrate. Vidasala's role is to not give serebaas freakin' lyrium! Oh, and what about the red lyrium? That stuff they wanted to keep out of Par Vollen so badly? Vidasala was researching that as well.

 

3. Yeah, and I'm saying that shouldn't be the issue.

 

4. His purpose is not tied to the Inquisition's existence. He does not cease to be a spy simply because his target MIGHT be ceasing.

 

5. But Hissrad knew for a FACT that the Inquisitor is not the agent of Fen'Harel. Vidasala was attacking the wrong target. She refused help from a clear, proven ally. Hissrad had every reason in the world to stop Vidasala. She was clearly in the wrong and clearly violating the Qun.

[leaguer of one]

1. Yeeeeesssss, they do. I gave you an example. Connobar was Teyrn of Highever. Flemeth killed him. Connobar's general, a Cousland, took over.

 

2. Because if he did know about the plot then sending him back to the Inquisition would have put the mission at risk. He might have let the information slip, either to the Inquisitor, or to Cole. And there was no guarantee that the Inquisition would not capture and interrogate him immediately upon either discovering the plot, or surviving the plot, or the plot going wrong, or just out of sheer paranoia.

 

And the point is that if Hissrad knew nothing of Solas being involved, then he had no reason to believe the Inquisitor was working with Solas or the elven spirits. From Hissrad's perspective of not knowing anything and discovering the situation as the Inquisitor did, he would conclude that Vidasala was drawing incorrect conclusions about the Inquisition, and as far as he knew, putting the alliance at risk. Putting his position in the Inquisition at risk.

 

But again, if Hissrad knew the plan from the start, then why didn't he attack the Inquisitor before he could stop Dragon's Breath? Why didn't he attack in the Shattered Library? What, were they bidding their time while Hissrad cut down one fellow Qunari after another?

 

Well then disagree with me and write that I'm wrong. Don't call my argument a delusion. That's rude. If you want to refute my argument then post facts. I have asked you for facts. You keep posting arguments as to why it makes sense to you. That's fine, but if you want to prove that this was an official Qunari operation and end my argument completely, then show me a letter from the antaam sanctioning Vidasala's actions. Show me a report being written from Vidasala to the antaam as to what she's doing. Unless you can make the connection between Vidasala and Par Vollen, you only have a theory.

1. He was a teyrnir. He's a major part of fereldin government. Of cousre he has a general. That does not mean all the noble have one. Even then they are still part of the people being bombed by the qun.

 

2.Wrong,What he knew or not know would not be an issue. It only when wrong because of the body they found. It would of been stopped no matter what Iron bull did. And he did not attack at the shattered library because he was not ordered to.

 

 

And I can call your argument delusion. And not rude because it's not an insult. You fact's are baseless. And you warping them to fit into what you want. Letter just show they many be dissagreement but not a statement that they are not supporting them. The fact the plan has no point with out the army to control the south and the fact Vidasala tells you that's the plan, proves me right.

[Dai Grepher]

But that's not the qun or in their character.  What's in the plot is what make sense to it.

 

Then you disagree with the motive. Good for you.

[leaguer of one]

1. Show me proof that the antaam was backing them. Show me they knew about it. So far, Dragon's Breath was created by Vidasala and was carried out by Vidasala without authorization. She probably saw it as doing her duty, but so what? So did the DA2 Arishok, and he had no contact with Par Vollen at all. All I see is an epilogue slide stating that the Qunari said they knew NOTHING of Vidasala's plans and denied any involvement in it or in authorizing it. Now you'd say, "Well of course they would say that". And you'd be right. But without evidence that they backed the plan, you cannot claim for certain that they didn't have any involvement.

 

2. But Hissrad's role is to sleep around and drink in order to infiltrate. Vidasala's role is to not give serebaas freakin' lyrium! Oh, and what about the red lyrium? That stuff they wanted to keep out of Par Vollen so badly? Vidasala was researching that as well.

 

3. Yeah, and I'm saying that shouldn't be the issue.

 

4. His purpose is not tied to the Inquisition's existence. He does not cease to be a spy simply because his target MIGHT be ceasing.

 

5. But Hissrad knew for a FACT that the Inquisitor is not the agent of Fen'Harel. Vidasala was attacking the wrong target. She refused help from a clear, proven ally. Hissrad had every reason in the world to stop Vidasala. She was clearly in the wrong and clearly violating the Qun.

1.Tthe entire dragon's breath plan. There ....Proof.

 

2.No Vidasala is just a qunari spy master and lead anti magic resercher.

 

3.Why would it? He does not need to know the agent of fen'heral is to stop the guy or do his job. Explain why he need to know it's Solas?

 

4.Which is why his part of operation dragon breath.

 

5.It does not matter. The issue of invading was to control the south and it's magic. it's because of the veil. it would not matter if the inquisitor was an knowing agent or unknowing one, the mission of the qunari would still of happened.

[leaguer of one]

Then you disagree with the motive. Good for you.

No, you need to re comprehend what I'm saying. TO be even more clear. The qun is never going to give you the choice to co-exist out side the qun as they are now.  And long as they believe in the qun as it is now they are always going to invade and never truly sue for  peace unless it to give them to to prep for the next war they have with the south. in order for that to happen, ether the south coverts to the qun or the qun change to allow coexistence with other beliefs.

[Dai Grepher]

That's not how it works. Action in line with belief just added to approval. that's all. it does not mean that action is going to change said belief. Or even make then change sides. As long as bull fallows the qun it's impossible for him to side with the inquisitor over the qun. Why? because the qun is more important than anything else in his eyes. No form of action, belief or anything is going to change that as long as he is loyal to the qun.

 

It wouldn't be changing sides. It would be continuing the alliance with an ally who is helping advance Qunari goals. If Hissrad knows the Inquisition is not working with the elven spirits, has no proof that Vidasala is acting with Par Vollen's sanction, sees with his own eye that Vidasala is violating the Qun, and that the Inquisition is advancing what Par Vollen has TOLD HIM they want advanced, then there is no reason to attack the Inquisitor. 
 

Again, I never asked Hissrad to side with the Inquisition over the Qun. I'm telling you that the situation does not support the idea that the Qun demanded the Inquisitor's death. All the evidence points to Vidasala being Tal-Vashoth, and all the Inquisitor's actions all show that the Inquisition supportive of the stated goals of the antaam.

 

Vidasala is not the Qun. She betrayed the Qun!

[Dai Grepher]

Free mages don't matter if there is no line of command to organize them. Their is no way the mages can be a hindrance to anything with out a command line.

 

Right, like those mages on the shoreline that can blow up a dreadnaught.

 

Ya see how I refute you by citing factual examples? Try doing that to my argument, if possible.
 

[leaguer of one]

Right, like those mages on the shoreline that can blow up a dreadnaught.

 

Ya see how I refute you by citing factual examples? Try doing that to my argument, if possible.
 

You mean those organize mages who are part of an army who has a chain of command and are totally orianted?

 

Sure they are just the same as the mages in the college of enchanters/circle of mage who are not part of an army, not organized to be part of an army, not fallowing any commands and not being able to get any, and not coordinated at all.(sarcasm)

[leaguer of one]

It wouldn't be changing sides. It would be continuing the alliance with an ally who is helping advance Qunari goals. If Hissrad knows the Inquisition is not working with the elven spirits, has no proof that Vidasala is acting with Par Vollen's sanction, sees with his own eye that Vidasala is violating the Qun, and that the Inquisition is advancing what Par Vollen has TOLD HIM they want advanced, then there is no reason to attack the Inquisitor. 
 

Again, I never asked Hissrad to side with the Inquisition over the Qun. I'm telling you that the situation does not support the idea that the Qun demanded the Inquisitor's death. All the evidence points to Vidasala being Tal-Vashoth, and all the Inquisitor's actions all show that the Inquisition supportive of the stated goals of the antaam.

 

Vidasala is not the Qun. She betrayed the Qun!

.....Have met the qunari. Sorry, the Sten said it best, the qun does not beleive in alliances or treaties...At least for the long term. That was only for taking down cory. now that it's done it's bisness as usual. Sorry but you need tostop think the qun is you're friend in any way.

 

And as i said before it's all about controlling the south. it would not matter if they are working  Solas or not. They would still invade. More so because of the veil and the fact they don't want any more magic surprises coming up. 

 

Sorry, but she is not a  tal-vashoth if the Anaatam is ready to take the south once her plan succeeds.

[Dai Grepher]

Mages never run completely free no matter what you've picked. The most you get is some mages go into a college and the others go into circles (not to mention the qunari already consider the circles too loose in restrictions). If it's orderly they won't be able to take over in the first place. They can't afford to fight a war on two fronts. That was the point of dragon's breath.

 

It wasn't a test of character for the Inquisition. It just showed the Inquisitor wasn't willing to sacrifice their forces for them and they pulled out because of it. Neither group wanted to be walked all over.

 

Yes they do in the sense that Bull won't leave the Qun unless it's a choice between the Qun or his chargers. Otherwise he doesn't leave the Qun. He was willing to become Tal Vashoth for them. That's the significance of it.
 

 

What I mean is that they are free to govern themselves in some worldstates. This should be something Hissrad takes to mean that the Inquisition should end and the Inquisitor killed. Ordered circles = easier invasion. Which means the Inquisitor made a "good" choice as far as the Qun is concerned and should not be killed. If mages are trapped in circles, and their masters are killed, then it just leaves the Qunari to walk in and take control. This, compared to mages ruling themselves. Dragon's Breath was just a joke, even to a Qun believer like Jerran.

 

Demands of the Qun is a separate issue that I won't get into. Just know that I don't think it was a test of character, but it did end up showing the Inquisitor's character regardless.

 

Is it though? Or is it that he listens to the Inquisitor's advice? And while he may have been willing to become Tal-Vashoth for them, that doesn't mean he wanted to become Tal-Vashoth. That's my point. If he can have both, he will keep both the Chargers and the Qun.
 

[Dai Grepher]

No, you need to re comprehend what I'm saying. TO be even more clear. The qun is never going to give you the choice to co-exist out side the qun as they are now.  And long as they believe in the qun as it is now they are always going to invade and never truly sue for  peace unless it to give them to to prep for the next war they have with the south. in order for that to happen, ether the south coverts to the qun or the qun change to allow coexistence with other beliefs.

 

Yeah. I agree. My point was that some players might approach it from the aspect of giving the Qunari a chance to change by witnessing non-Qunites doing good work that benefits everyone.

[BansheeOwnage]

This article sums it up well enough, but seriously?  Bull was a plant.  I never truly bought the whole schtick where he showed up and revealed himself.  No, a spy doesn't do that.  If he had known he'd be outed, then another should have been sent.  No, he was a plant, plain and simple.  In fact, his whole arc ISN'T about him choosing the Qun...it's about choosing to be who he REALLY is.  If you screw over the Chargers, then he simply sticks with the original plan.  The Qunari were going to betray the Inquisition regardless, it was only a matter of WHEN.  He was there to facilitate that.  When they thought he'd started to go native, as it were, they tested him.  Some pointed out that it was insane to sacrifice a whole dreadnought for a test.  Actually, considering what they did in Trespasser, that was nothing.  They needed to know if Bull was still their point man, if he was going to be able to pull off the coup de grace.  How loyal he was to you was in doubt...but he was ALWAYS loyal to the Chargers.  Save them, save yourself.

 

Here is the article...

 

http://shallow-betwe...st/128769818344

 

I respect him because I didn't screw him over.  Betrayal only begets MORE betrayal...

Hey, you posted that article! I was going to do that in the first reply but I couldn't find it. So thanks!

 

 I could write essays about Bull, Krem and the Qun.

Yeah, he's a much more complicated and impressive character than I originally took him for. Bravo again, Weekes.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah. I agree. My point was that some players might approach it from the aspect of giving the Qunari a chance to change by witnessing non-Qunites doing good work that benefits everyone.

That's not how that works. the qun is the qun not matter what. It's ether it changes or the player become part of the qun.

[Dai Grepher]

You mean those organize mages who are part of an army who has a chain of command and are totally orianted?

 

Sure they are just the same as the mages in the college of enchanters/circle of mage who are not part of an army, not organized to be part of an army, not fallowing any commands and not being able to get any, and not coordinated at all.(sarcasm)

 

No, I mean those Venatori mages who were taken completely by surprise and yet still managed to analyze the situation and respond to it by throwing a few fireballs.

 

Oh but that's right, only mages that are trained in war and strategy are able to learn the fireball spell. /sarcasm

[The Baconer]

Yeah. I agree. My point was that some players might approach it from the aspect of giving the Qunari a chance to change by witnessing non-Qunites doing good work that benefits everyone.

 

We have learned from this place that there lived an elven mage who saw a great wrong and sacrificed all to right it. This mage made the Veil, which protects us from the Fade. This Veil stripped power from his rulers, who had treated their people with such excess that it makes the southern kings and queens seem staid.

 

Thus does every action carry rightness and all paths converge.

 

In his greatest magic, the elven mage became an agent of peace through the Veil. In our willingness to brave this place, we may discover how the Veil can be strengthened through our own mages. For that, we risk our lives.

 

(also, we're going to blow everyone up)

 

You can never be sure with Qunari.

[Dai Grepher]

.....Have met the qunari. Sorry, the Sten said it best, the qun does not beleive in alliances or treaties...At least for the long term. That was only for taking down cory. now that it's done it's bisness as usual. Sorry but you need tostop think the qun is you're friend in any way.

 

And as i said before it's all about controlling the south. it would not matter if they are working  Solas or not. They would still invade. More so because of the veil and the fact they don't want any more magic surprises coming up. 

 

Sorry, but she is not a  tal-vashoth if the Anaatam is ready to take the south once her plan succeeds.

 

I don't think the Qunari are reliable allies. My Hero of Ferelden does not trust them. My Champion does not trust them. My Inquisitor does not trust them. But all of them are willing to give the Qunari the chance to act civilized. Condemning the Qunari out of fear of what they might do is no better than how they act against mages or non-Qunari. Fighting a bad philosophy means providing a better example.

 

Fine, they would still invade. But the issue here is whether they were invading in Trespasser or not. I claim that they were not. Vidasala was acting outside the Qun. Hissrad had no reason to obey her in my worldstate.

 

Prove that the antaam was ready to take the south. Prove that Vidasala was not acting alone without authorization.

[Ryzaki]

What I mean is that they are free to govern themselves in some worldstates. This should be something Hissrad takes to mean that the Inquisition should end and the Inquisitor killed. Ordered circles = easier invasion. Which means the Inquisitor made a "good" choice as far as the Qun is concerned and should not be killed. If mages are trapped in circles, and their masters are killed, then it just leaves the Qunari to walk in and take control. This, compared to mages ruling themselves. Dragon's Breath was just a joke, even to a Qun believer like Jerran.

 

Demands of the Qun is a separate issue that I won't get into. Just know that I don't think it was a test of character, but it did end up showing the Inquisitor's character regardless.

 

Is it though? Or is it that he listens to the Inquisitor's advice? And while he may have been willing to become Tal-Vashoth for them, that doesn't mean he wanted to become Tal-Vashoth. That's my point. If he can have both, he will keep both the Chargers and the Qun.
 

 

No it doesn't. It means they'll be quickly told who to fight and how to do it. Also if mages are in circles it'd be easier to organize them to fight against the Qunari not harder.

 

Fair enough.

 

Yes it is. He's willing to leave the Qunari for his men. This is blatant in when Gatt flat out says "you'd be declaring yourself Tal Vashoth." Bull was willing to pay that price to save the chargers. He might not have wanted it but if the choice was Qun or Chargers he'd pick the chargers. (Him not wanting it is exactly why he stays in the Qun if he's never forced to choose).