657 réponses à ce sujet

[denise12184]

She's high ranking Ben-Hassrath. Any tool to get the job done, remember? That could include drastic measures like feeding lyrium to saarebas. If it benefits a greater purpose in the end, why not? We don't really know enough hard facts about the Qun to declare otherwise. They hate magic, but are not adverse to turning mages to their own purpose. The point is, we don't know enough to say for certain either way. The letter lends credence to her going rogue, but the circumstantial evidence indicates otherwise.

 

The arishok was court martialed because he failed- he lost the tome again. Denial works if you can convince enough people that you had no idea what was going on. Denial is pretty prevalent in politics, whether true or not. How many people in the real world deny something and get away with it? They qunari aren't above deceit- Bull is proof of that.

 

I'm not sure I understand? The letter said what it said. That doesn't mean it's necessarily the truth. It has been stated that these guys signed a peace treaty because they knew it would be believed, when in reality, they are just biding their time, waiting for the right moment to strike. They lie if they think it will get them the desired result, plain and simple.

[SweetTeaholic]

No, this has nothing to do with what I think. I posted a fact from the game. Fact > Weekes' opinion (if he even said that in the first place).

 

You are mistaken. No one refuted a single thing I wrote.

 

You clearly didn't read what I wrote.

 

I know this because of all the anti-Qun actions she took during the game. Just because the Qunari plan to invade one day does not mean it was THAT day.

 

Well I wouldn't condemn the writers to that before actually seeing them quoted on their alleged statement.

 

You can't argue with fact. You claim Weekes said Bull betrays us because we let the Chargers die. Yet the game shows that the Chargers can be alive and Bull still sides with Viddasala. So if Weeks really made that statement, then Weekes is 100% wrong. That's a fact. That's not my opinion.

 

 

YES I DID READ WHAT YOU WROTE! AND IT'S NOT FACT!

 

I'm more freakin peeved that you have the gall to say that "the writer doesn't know their own writing" which is bullshit! Most writers DO know there own story and characters. They know them better than anyone else. Stop acting like you know it all, because you don't. 

 

That's why I'm angry. Not the fact that you shared your views, the fact you act like everything you say is fact and only fact.

[Xcorpyo]

Actually, I just posted a fact from the game. That ends the debate. It was never about the Chargers. It was always about Bull being declared Tal-Vasoth, living without the Qun, and seeing he didn't need it. Anything Weekes says is rendered moot by Trespasser which shows The Iron Bull siding with Vidasala if the Chargers are alive and Demands of the Qun was not completed. That is a fact. Accept it or reject it. Up to you.

 

If Weekes really said that, then he doesn't know his own game. The Chargers can live, and he can still side with Vidasala. Irrefutable fact.

 

Once again, because you probably didn't see my post about this, but I wanted Hissrad to side with the Qun and I wanted to kill Hissrad based on his choice. I wanted that. I don't have a problem with that. My problem is that he did not side with the Qun. He sided with a woman who was blatantly violating the Qun.

 

 

Wow, a lot of debate for something that seems very cut and dry.

 

 

You start with an IB that is an agent of the assassin/spy/religious arm of the Qunari people, a  follower of the Qun with some budding doubts regarding his religion. Or in other words, a Hardened IB.

 

 

In regards to his final path you have only three specific choices:

 

1. Don’t give a damn about the guy, not even bother to do his personal quest. When the times comes, he’ll return the favour by not giving a damn about you. He remains Hardened.

 

2. Do his personal quest, but decide to give him the finger by killing the closest thing he might have to a family/friends, because a failed mission looks so bad in your quest list, all for a ‘maybe’ alliance with people that don’t even believe in alliances, and use them only when it suites them, to trick the basra into complacency, or for a ‘divide et empera’ strategy. Still Hardened.

 

3.   Do his quest, and chose to save the people that actually helped so far, even if that means that your mission is a bust. Then show him that there is another path outside the Qun. He is slightly less Hardened. I mean, have you seen those abs? I don’t think there is an unhardened version of the guy.

 

 

It’s just that simple, 1 and 2 makes you bas, 3 boss.

 

 

As to the comment about Weekes not knowing his game, I think you exaggerate a little. After all, he only mentioned option 2 because no1(not even bothering to do said quest) seemed, well, too damn obvious. I mean, if you don’t do the personal quests of your companions or treat them badly, their actions might vary from leaving you(all games),  dying in some manner(awakening, etc),  or fighting you to the death(Leliana, Wynne, even Oghren in 1,  Fenris if you side with mages in 2,  Bull in 3).

 

Why does IB comes as such a surprise? This stuff happened in every DA game so far in certain choice driven actions. And I think the ‘to the death list’ is even longer, but I don’t remember all of them right now, and I usually keep my companions happy, less hassle this way.

 

 

So why the wtf moment? You reap what you sow. I was more surprised about Leliana and Wynne fighting me over a pile of ashes than IB staying true to his believes, if you did nothing to change them.

 

 

And about the ‘it was against the Qun’ or the qunari leadership denouncing Viddassala, are you serious? You do know how spying and countries denouncing the actions of their spies if they are caught works right?

 

 

If still a member of the Qun, IB is just an agent in the field. Ben-Hassrat is the qunari version of the Chantry, under the command of the Ariqun, the qunari version of the Divine.

 

Viddasala is the leader of one of the three branches of the B-H, the similar rank in the Chantry being either Knight Divine or Lord Seeker.

 

You are telling me that if the Knight Divine or Lord Seeker finds a templar in the field and he either commands him to drink some red lyrium or hunt down an apostate, the templar has the option of disobeying the order or wait a couple of weeks until he sends a message to Val Royeaux to ask the Divine herself? No, he follows the order, even if it seems wrong/silly or whatever, because that is what soldiers do.

 

A guy brainwashed from birth to follow orders even more so.

 

 

Take Cullen and every templar in Kirkwall for example. They all knew Meredith was going crazy, but they obeyed her orders to the letter, to a point where the things in the Circle were so bad, more than half the mages deaths were do to suicide(conv with Anders). He followed orders until the day she started killing everything in her path, flying, using magical powers and going all ways of Darth Vader on their asses.

 

 

So you can’t expect IB to drop everything he believes in just to side with you only because he has some doubts. Especially if you didn’t help him and showed him a better way.

 

 

And to the final point, that her actions were against the Qun because she was using lyrium on her own soldiers. It’s like a templar saying that magic is wrong and blood magic is completely forbidden, while drinking lyrium so he can cast spells and use blood magic to hunt down runaway mages.

 

 

The thing is the B-H and the Chantry are the same in this regard as well. After all, the B-H is using lyrium on all their people, magical or otherwise, if it suits them. Their best conversion tool is qamek, used as a hallucinogen of sorts and in extreme cases as a way to completely lobotomise people, similar with making someone a tranquil, both cases pointing to qamek having raw lyrium(or a modified form) in his composition.

 

 

And Viddasala’s plan was a great one. Everibody said so, even your own people. And it would have worked too, if not for Solas pulling the Inq strings from the shadows, thus making Viddasala’s point a valid one. After all, in Trespasser the Inq danced to Fen’Harel’s strings, unknowingly or not makes no difference. An elf Inq in a relation with him has even a “Screw the world, I want to join you” option.

 

 

If you hear the comments of your party when first entering the mining facility, you understand that this operation is an enormous one. They keep getting reinforcements, materials, experts from different areas of learning in their culture. It is impossible for such an important leader and hundreds of soldiers/workers/a huge ass dragon, not to mention the people making the qunari gunpowder to go missing without someone from back home not to notice. Especially since the soldiers are under the Arishok’s command, and the workers answer to the Arigena.  Even with the local help(used mostly to infiltrate the pallace), 9 out of 10 enemies are still qunari. 

 

Do you think that if she would have succeeded, the Qunari leaders would not have attacked a defenceless South? Yeah right.

 

 

This was the Qunary version of a blitzkrieg. It failed, they washed their hands of their agents and moved to plan B, divide et empera.

 

Don’t you find it strange that no matter what you chose,  the qunari are so blaze about it?

 

-You blew up our ship? **** happens. Let’s be friends.

 

-Inq present? We’d love to be your allies.

 

-No Inq? We’d love to make an alliance with the Divine? WTF??????

 

 

Now you guys stay away while we deal with these mage slavers that you hate anyway, and then we’ll deal with you. As the compassionate, understanding and open minded allies that we are, of course. 

[Illyria]

I know that. I never wrote otherwise.
 

 

????

 

Then I'm not even too sure what your issue with the writing is.

[robertthebard]

That plan would not let them sweep the north even if successful. They were targeting all the wrong heads of state. Nothing would have changed except a few leaders. And you're right, their plan to blow people up was already thwarted by that point. Leliana sent word to all the proper people and the barrels were removed. Not only that, but now the gattlock formula is known to the Inquisition! They have gattlock now. Thanks Vidasala. So again, why would Hissrad side with Vidasala at this point? She failed, even if she had been acting on official orders, she failed her mission, she failed in her role, she failed the Qun.

The better question here is "Why wouldn't he side with the Qun?", especially if he's loyal to the Qun for either not doing his mission at all, or sacrificing the Chargers. It's ironic that people expect a dedicated Qunari spy to turn on the Qunari at this point. That Bull fits this to a tee should be obvious, if you've talked to him about his past under the Qun at all; he did turn himself in to the re-educators, knowing exactly how they work.

But let's look at the logic employed to come to this conclusion:

1. We tell Bull that loyalty to the Qun is more important than the Chargers, and this for "selfish" reasons. If you ally with the Qunari, you get stuff, if you save the Chargers, you don't get stuff. I have seen the staff schematic, irony in and of itself, as an excuse to sacrifice the Chargers. However, regardless, we have just told the guy that openly told us "My job is to get into the inner circle of the Inquisition and spy on them" that that's acceptable, because we support the Qunari, instead of the mercenary band that we hired and put in harm's way. How very Qunari of us, eh?

2. We have people that expect that, given we have actively encouraged Bull to remain loyal to the Qun, he will instead remain loyal to us, people that, as I stated in point 1 here, he's been instructed to infiltrate and spy on. Any dialog you have with him is suspect, because he's a spy, and doing what he has to do to get into and remain in the inner circle, so that he has the most information possible to send to his superiors. This is akin to expecting our spies to turn on us at a critical moment, because they're our spies, but they have to maintain their cover.

3. If you ignore his mission, he's loyal to the Qun. He is, as stated above, doing and saying what it takes to maintain his cover, even though he pulled the ultimate "Hide in plain sight" by telling you exactly what his mission is, and yet, people are surprised that he fulfills his mission? Why?
 

Oh, it's about Solas now? Well that's fine, but now you're changing the issue here. And there's no evidence Hissrad knew anything about Solas at this point. Vidasala doesn't drop Solas' name until after you have already killed Hissrad. So he couldn't have been delaying the Inquisitor for the reasons you stated. At best, he only knew the mark was getting worse. So what? And he knew for a fact that you weren't working with the elven spirits.
 
So yeah, the circumstances of his choice to side with Vidasala made no sense. That's coming from someone who wanted to fight and kill Hissrad in this DLC.

They made perfect sense: Your spying job is over, let's wrap this operation up.

[The Baconer]

Source that he returned to Par Vollen for reeducation?

 

I had thought he mentioned it in one of his post-Demands conversations, but I could be mistaken.

 

 

Of course it would have. So why didn't she use that asset until after Dragon's Breath was thwarted?

 

 

They were using that asset; Iron Bull was continuing to act as a mole within the Inquisition. However, their original plan was disrupted when Solas got the Inquisitor involved in stopping Dragon's Breath. Thus, Iron Bull was brought into combat with the Inquisitor when all other options were exhausted, and where the Inquisitor would be most vulnerable on paper: The Darvaarad.

 

 

Wait, he was conditioned to act against the Qun? And this is because... he demonstrated loyalty to the Qun in Demands of the Qun?

 

Conditioned to act in spite of what he was normally taught, yes.

 

Of course, I think you're getting ahead of yourself in presuming the aspects of the Qun. Some of the most common traits of the Qunari, like their chronic complaints regarding the "chaos" of the south, and their stance on magic, would actually be in conflict with one of the most predominantly featured scriptures:

 

There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.

 

 

Yeah, that seems to be a major problem the new writers have with the Qun. They can't quite seem to understand what it is supposed to mean. First gender issues, now chain of command issues. I'm sure next they'll try to change things to where Qunari are allowed to defy the higher ups by giving orders to those declared Tal-Vashoth...

 

...oh wait.

 

Or maybe the Qun just isn't as defined and orderly as its adherents would present it to be. We're also making another assumption that there were higher-ups being defied.

 

If that were the case, one would expect said higher-ups to actually move in to correct this insubordination... not wait with bated breath and weapons at the ready to see if their plan actually succeeds, then go with the plan B invasion when it doesn't.

[Boost32]

Bull says in the epilogue that he will go back to the Qun.

And its clear as crystal that Vidassala was not a rogue agent, I dont know why people keep saying that.

[Mikka-chan]

I just want to say, about bad things happening in epilogues/later 'games'- that's not new for Trespasser.

 

(I'm completely ignoring the whole 'was Vidassala rogue or not, as I find it obvious that she was not'- I mean, after the Arishok burned Kirkwall, the Qunari did a 'lolz, we disavow him' despite that he was, you know, the Arishok.  'The plan that didn't work is disavowed' seems to be their fairly typical method of working things out.)

 

Try playing a dwarven noble in Origins.  It makes sense to side with Harrowmont: sure, you know he doesn't care as much about the casteless as your brother, but 'Screw my brother, I'm going with the person who didn't betray me AND who likes me' seems reasonable (after all, why does your dwarven noble care about the casteless?).  In the epilogue you find out that he basically failed at everyone, but hey, he made you a paragon and seems like he'll be useful to you.

 

...Then come to Inqusition, where you find out he's decided you're (you being the Warden, still) dead and wants you stricken as that in records and had YOUR paragon statue made purposely smaller then the other statues.  Betraying baby bro, on the other hand?  He's convinced you're alive and will return and refuses to hear anyone say differently, and has your Paragon statue proudly in front of the palace.  Apparently,

 

I find that a far bigger punch in the gut then 'Hey, the person you encouraged to take Lyrium despite his wishes and struggles to quit became drugged out and crazy due to it!' and 'Hey, the person you encouraged to give up the ties to the people he cared most about for his culture and religion sided with said culture and religion instead of someone he may have cared about!', both which were pretty much telegraphed.  That Harrowmont would be a weak king and fail a bit, telegraphed.  That he'd basically stab you in the back?  Not telegraphed.

[Ryzaki]

Wow I didn't realize Harrowmont ended up being that much of a douche.

 

Bhelen forever I see.

[KaiserShep]

Wow I didn't realize Harrowmont ended up being that much of a douche.
 
Bhelen forever I see.

I'm glad my Warden supported him from the start, though it was more to screw with dwarven culture, which ironically ended up improving it.

[leaguer of one]

Even My Noble dwafe Warden sided with Bhelen...Only because she did not want the last of her family to be dead and her fathers sake.

[Hazegurl]

First off, quote Weekes. Find the source. I doubt he even said it. But even if he did, that would just make him ignorant of his own game.

 

It is a fact that the Chargers can live and Hissrad sides with Viddasala. Which means him attacking the Inquisitor is not about the Inquisitor letting the Chargers die. That is a fact. Not an opinion, a fact. So if Weekes contradicts this FACT, then he is factually wrong.

That's a good point.  Bull never seemed completely happy being Tal Vosth.  His tarot card is him being sorrowful while surrounded by dead Qunari.  I don't think the whole matter can be easily wrapped up as:

 

Save Chargers = Bull happy and loyal.

Kill Chargers = Bull hates you.

 

Obviously he doesn't hate the IQ because he approves no matter the choice.  He just approves for different reasons.  At the end of the day, if he could have both the Chargers and the Qun, that would probably be the most ideal situation for him. But when push comes to shove, the Qun wins.  Without the Qun, he has nothing but the Chargers to fall back on. A comforting consolation prize.

 

As for the operation. It could either be poor writing or the Qun lying.  Or a bit of both. Either way, If IB still has the Qun, he will side with them no matter what and he ain't siding with no Tal Vosth.  The fact that he's there to kill you pretty much means he's working for the Qun.  Although it is stupid for him to try and kill the IQ during battle when the IQ is on high alert and not when his guard is down.

[Tamyn]

 

Why do people keep trying to give Solas an excuse for his actions by using this horrible attempt at but you did it to so it's not that bad? This comparison would only work if Solas was going back in time to stop himself from ever creating the veil. That's not what he's trying to do. 

 

 

It's interesting, because this reminds me of this old comic book series I used to read. The villain did want to go back in time to stop an ancient cataclysm from happening, but that would cause death on a massive scale also because all of the children and descendants that were born because of the tragedy would be erased from existence. So even if Solas did go back in time to stop himself, a lot of people wouldn't be alive anymore.

[Darkstarr11]

i've been replaying Bull's personal quest.  Good ol' Gatt spelled it out for me.  He straight out said that elves are harder to spot as spies.  He himself had been working in Orlais and Nevarra.  The Qunari don't really bargain.  That the Inquisition would get more use out of their spies and dreadnoughts than their military forces.  At the end of the quest, if you decided to save the Chargers, two Qunari agents, HUMANS by the way, attacked Bull.  

 

Before you even went on the Iron Bull's personal quest, the Qunari were infiltrating the Inquisition.  Now, we all know that organizations, and governments have spies.  Intelligence gathering.  SOP, right?  Actually, yes, it IS Standard Operating Procedure.  Gatt and Bull tell you that the Qunari never do anything without a purpose.  Purpose is what they are ALL about.  Sten tells you so.  So does the Arishok.  They HAD an endgame.  The Viddasala tells you that they were planning to deal with the South after the Breach opened up.  

 

As I said before, the Viddasala is a black-ops agent.  So, she totally COULD have been working on her own.  This could have been all her plan...except for the size of the operation.  In order to pull this off, she would have had to have fooled her OWN spy organization.  Other agents would have had to have been in the dark, OR complicit in her plan.  The Ariqun would have to be asleep at the wheel and the Antaam totally ignorant of what was going on.  In my play through, Sten is now the Arishok.  He was no slouch.  A warrior poet.  It was mentioned that there were members of the Antaam in the Viddasala's group.  They didn't get there by accident.  Also, the Viddasala ISN'T part of the Antaam.  They have no reason to obey her commands.  Considering that she was going after every capital in the South, there was NO way that the Arishok or the Ariqun DIDN'T know what was going on.  Considering that she had gaatlok barrels coming through the Inquisition, spies coming through Orlais, and was using the Eluvians, SOMEONE had to have known.  Also, she had Saarebas with her.  THAT requires an Arvaarad, and THEY are fanatical in their jobs.  DAII showed us that they are willing to kill people AROUND mages they believe are corrupted.  Feeding the Saarebas lyrium?  They'd have her executed.

 

Unless the Ariqun sanctioned it...

 

With the letter found in the Darvaarad, it may not PROVE that she was sanctioned, but it puts up a hardy argument for it.  If she had succeeded, do you really think the Qun would shake their finger at her, and say 'Bad Vidda, BAD!' and send her to the re-educators?  Or they would congratulate her on a job well done?

 

If you screwed over the Chargers, when Bull went back, he was probably clued into the plan.  Considering you left his people to die, and he was back with the Qun, betraying you was a twofer.  I'm surprised he announced himself though.  A knife in the back would have been smarter, but maybe by then he just didn't care anymore.  Maybe the betrayal itself was enough for him.   

[Sabariel]

I've no problem with betrayal, as long as it's written well. Bull's betrayal was so poorly written and executed it's not even funny.

[Dai Grepher]

She's high ranking Ben-Hassrath. Any tool to get the job done, remember? That could include drastic measures like feeding lyrium to saarebas. If it benefits a greater purpose in the end, why not? We don't really know enough hard facts about the Qun to declare otherwise. They hate magic, but are not adverse to turning mages to their own purpose. The point is, we don't know enough to say for certain either way. The letter lends credence to her going rogue, but the circumstantial evidence indicates otherwise.

 

The arishok was court martialed because he failed- he lost the tome again. Denial works if you can convince enough people that you had no idea what was going on. Denial is pretty prevalent in politics, whether true or not. How many people in the real world deny something and get away with it? They qunari aren't above deceit- Bull is proof of that.

 

I'm not sure I understand? The letter said what it said. That doesn't mean it's necessarily the truth. It has been stated that these guys signed a peace treaty because they knew it would be believed, when in reality, they are just biding their time, waiting for the right moment to strike. They lie if they think it will get them the desired result, plain and simple.

 

She's the highest ranking priestess in her division. But she is part of "dangerous purpose". Hissrad is part of "dangerous questions". Which means, she is not his superior. She has no authority over him whatsoever, and that's even if she had been acting within the Qun. But she was acting completely outside the Qun. To put it in perspective, it would be like a Catholic priest giving a command to a Mormon... while also sacrificing newborn babies to Satan.

 

"Any tool" refers to weapons. They don't have a "soul" sword like the antaam. They can use whatever weapons they want to get the job done. This does not include feeding lyrium to saarebas. According to Viddasala's codex she, "...handles ... the collection and quarantine of magic. Things that, by Qunari definition, are threats to themselves and others by nature." So no, her job is to quarantine magic, not grow it with lyrium. Turning mages loose as weapons is one thing, but growing their magic is completely different. And Viddasala's stated goal was to have Saarebas (Saarebases? Saarebi?) actually use their magic to strengthen the Veil, not to use combatively against enemies.

 

What circumstantial evidence indicates otherwise (that she wasn't rogue)?

 

Maybe it was because he lost the tome. Or maybe it was both. In any case, Varric confirmed that the Qunari declared that the Arishok acted without permission from Par Vollen. But again, this is all different from the case with Viddasala. In the antaam, soldiers are expected to follow orders from the Arishok without question. In the Ben-Hassrath, there are different divisions, each with their own overseer. And they have more flexibility in what they do and how they do it.

 

Fine. They aren't above deceit. But that doesn't mean they were being deceitful in this case. It's possible that they were being honest, and didn't know anything about Viddasala's plot. So without any information on what was going on, no word from Par Vollen, and nothing but an established alliance with the Inquisition, Hissrad had no reason to think the operation was official. Thus no reason to side with Viddasala as a Qunari.

 

Okay, the letter might be a lie. But no one knows that. All we know is that there is a letter from Par Vollen (supposedly), and the letter says they have no idea what Viddasala is doing, that they have no plan to attack the Council nor will they, and that they will stop Viddasala themselves if necessary. From what I understand, this is the case even if you let the dreadnaught get blown up. So the only info we have says Viddasala is acting outside the Qun.

[Dai Grepher]

YES I DID READ WHAT YOU WROTE! AND IT'S NOT FACT!

 

I'm more freakin peeved that you have the gall to say that "the writer doesn't know their own writing" which is bullshit! Most writers DO know there own story and characters. They know them better than anyone else. Stop acting like you know it all, because you don't. 

 

That's why I'm angry. Not the fact that you shared your views, the fact you act like everything you say is fact and only fact.

 

So it isn't a fact that not doing Demands of the Qun results in the Chargers still being alive and Iron Bull siding with Viddasala anyway?

 

Well I only say that about Weekes if he said what people claim he said. So far I have not seen a direct quote from him.

 

Most writers? Meaning some don't know their own story and characters? How dare you make such an accusation about writers?

 

Not saying I know it all. But I know this particular issue, and I posted fact to back it up.

 

Then you are angry for no good reason. I don't act that way, and even if I did, it shouldn't bother you. Almost everyone here replying to me are posting statements in a "matter of fact" tone. I don't mind it.

[SweetTeaholic]

So it isn't a fact that not doing Demands of the Qun results in the Chargers still being alive and Iron Bull siding with Viddasala anyway?

 

Well I only say that about Weekes if he said what people claim he said. So far I have not seen a direct quote from him.

 

Most writers? Meaning some don't know their own story and characters? How dare you make such an accusation about writers?

 

Not saying I know it all. But I know this particular issue, and I posted fact to back it up.

 

Then you are angry for no good reason. I don't act that way, and even if I did, it shouldn't bother you. Almost everyone here replying to me are posting statements in a "matter of fact" tone. I don't mind it.

 

Yes you did act that way by saying that Weekes doesn't know his own ****. And if he doesn't, neither does the rest of the writers. They just pull crap out of there asses right? I sure do when I write my stories.

And I say most writers because rarely do you see a writer who doesn't know there own world. If anyone knows their world more than anyone, the writer does. 

 

Get your head out of your ass. 

[Dai Grepher]

 

Wow, a lot of debate for something that seems very cut and dry.

 

 

You start with an IB that is an agent of the assassin/spy/religious arm of the Qunari people

 

-snip-

 

As to the comment about Weekes not knowing his game, I think you exaggerate a little. After all, he only mentioned option 2 because no1(not even bothering to do said quest) seemed, well, too damn obvious. I mean, if you don’t do the personal quests of your companions or treat them badly, their actions might vary from leaving you(all games),  dying in some manner(awakening, etc),  or fighting you to the death(Leliana, Wynne, even Oghren in 1,  Fenris if you side with mages in 2,  Bull in 3).

 

Why does IB comes as such a surprise? This stuff happened in every DA game so far in certain choice driven actions. And I think the ‘to the death list’ is even longer, but I don’t remember all of them right now, and I usually keep my companions happy, less hassle this way.

 

 

So why the wtf moment? You reap what you sow. I was more surprised about Leliana and Wynne fighting me over a pile of ashes than IB staying true to his believes, if you did nothing to change them.

 

 

And about the ‘it was against the Qun’ or the qunari leadership denouncing Viddassala, are you serious? You do know how spying and countries denouncing the actions of their spies if they are caught works right?

 

 

If still a member of the Qun, IB is just an agent in the field. Ben-Hassrat is the qunari version of the Chantry, under the command of the Ariqun, the qunari version of the Divine.

 

Viddasala is the leader of one of the three branches of the B-H, the similar rank in the Chantry being either Knight Divine or Lord Seeker.

 

You are telling me that if the Knight Divine or Lord Seeker finds a templar in the field and he either commands him to drink some red lyrium or hunt down an apostate, the templar has the option of disobeying the order or wait a couple of weeks until he sends a message to Val Royeaux to ask the Divine herself? No, he follows the order, even if it seems wrong/silly or whatever, because that is what soldiers do.

 

A guy brainwashed from birth to follow orders even more so.

 

 

Take Cullen and every templar in Kirkwall for example. They all knew Meredith was going crazy, but they obeyed her orders to the letter, to a point where the things in the Circle were so bad, more than half the mages deaths were do to suicide(conv with Anders). He followed orders until the day she started killing everything in her path, flying, using magical powers and going all ways of Darth Vader on their asses.

 

 

So you can’t expect IB to drop everything he believes in just to side with you only because he has some doubts. Especially if you didn’t help him and showed him a better way.

 

 

And to the final point, that her actions were against the Qun because she was using lyrium on her own soldiers. It’s like a templar saying that magic is wrong and blood magic is completely forbidden, while drinking lyrium so he can cast spells and use blood magic to hunt down runaway mages.

 

 

The thing is the B-H and the Chantry are the same in this regard as well. After all, the B-H is using lyrium on all their people, magical or otherwise, if it suits them. Their best conversion tool is qamek, used as a hallucinogen of sorts and in extreme cases as a way to completely lobotomise people, similar with making someone a tranquil, both cases pointing to qamek having raw lyrium(or a modified form) in his composition.

 

 

And Viddasala’s plan was a great one. Everibody said so, even your own people. And it would have worked too, if not for Solas pulling the Inq strings from the shadows, thus making Viddasala’s point a valid one. After all, in Trespasser the Inq danced to Fen’Harel’s strings, unknowingly or not makes no difference. An elf Inq in a relation with him has even a “Screw the world, I want to join you” option.

 

 

If you hear the comments of your party when first entering the mining facility, you understand that this operation is an enormous one. They keep getting reinforcements, materials, experts from different areas of learning in their culture. It is impossible for such an important leader and hundreds of soldiers/workers/a huge ass dragon, not to mention the people making the qunari gunpowder to go missing without someone from back home not to notice. Especially since the soldiers are under the Arishok’s command, and the workers answer to the Arigena.  Even with the local help(used mostly to infiltrate the pallace), 9 out of 10 enemies are still qunari. 

 

Do you think that if she would have succeeded, the Qunari leaders would not have attacked a defenceless South? Yeah right.

 

 

This was the Qunary version of a blitzkrieg. It failed, they washed their hands of their agents and moved to plan B, divide et empera.

 

Don’t you find it strange that no matter what you chose,  the qunari are so blaze about it?

 

-You blew up our ship? **** happens. Let’s be friends.

 

-Inq present? We’d love to be your allies.

 

-No Inq? We’d love to make an alliance with the Divine? WTF??????

 

 

Now you guys stay away while we deal with these mage slavers that you hate anyway, and then we’ll deal with you. As the compassionate, understanding and open minded allies that we are, of course. 

 

 

I get the concept of what makes Bull stick with the Inquisition. That was never the issue. My complaint is that he sides with Viddasala when all the evidence obtained up to that point proves that she is in violation of the Qun. Hissrad was not obligated to follow any of her orders.

 

Again, I would need to see Weekes' comment in context. I was just replying to what others claimed he said.

 

If Hissrad has sided with the Qun, it would not have surprised me. I would have been fine with it. I wanted it that way in fact. The problem is that he did not side with the Qun. He sided with a rogue agent who were in violation of the Qun.

 

I know how it works. My point was that she violated the Qun by acting outside of her role and outside the command of the Ariqun. She was not authorized to do what she did, and you can find a letter that she intercepted stating that Par Vollen has no involvement in her actions. Maybe it's a lie, but it's the only word from Par Vollen that Hissrad would have to go on. Plus, the alliance with the Inquisition would still be in effect. So the only way Hissrad would ignore all that evidence is if he was informed of the plot before returning to the Inquisition, but in that case he would have stopped the Inquisitor before Dragon's Breath could be thwarted. I also doubt the Qunari would send Hissrad back with inside knowledge on Dragon's Breath, knowing what Cole is capable of with his mind reading.

 

Viddasala is from a different division. She has no authority over Hissrad. It's like Roderick trying to order Cassandra around.

 

They are not the same at all. And the qumak causes a specific effect. That is not the same as feeding lyrium to a saarebas to make his magic more powerful. That is the exact opposite of what a Viddasala is supposed to do.

 

Leliana's opinion does not make Viddasala's plan a good one. Leliana is easily impressed it seems. Makes sense, seeing as how she's such a poor spymaster. You don't know Dragon's Breath would have succeeded otherwise. You are just making a baseless statement.

 

That's all speculation. The Viddasala's original role was legitimate, and for that she would need soldiers. If she went rogue, then she could easily have commandeered those forces to her own plans, and used her own forces for the more sensitive operations. For example, she could use the antaam to attack the elven spirits. She could have convinced them that the Inquisitor was an ally of those spirits. She could have used her own people to mine the lyrium and search the library. And lastly, she could have used the antaam to help keep the dragon at bay so venom could be extracted for a purpose the antaam would not be told about. But Viddasala brought in red lyrium as well, which shows that she was hiding things from the Ariqun.

 

No, I don't think they would have invaded. First, they didn't know about Dragon's Breath. So they wouldn't have been ready to take advantage of it. But even if they had invaded and capitalized on it, that still doesn't mean they authorized the operation. It doesn't mean Viddasala wasn't operating outside the Qun without approval.

 

Nice theory you have there. Any proof to back it up? Otherwise it's just speculation.

 

They didn't phrase it like that. If the ship was blown up, they state that despite such a mishap the Qunari have no intention of retaliation for it and that they are not involved in any plot to blow anyone up.

 

As far as I know, any talk of an alliance only happens if the dreadnaught was defended. If not, they aren't interested in any alliance with the Inquisition or the Chantry. Am I wrong about that?

 

No, in my worldstate (Vivienne is Divine, alliance with the Qunari) the Qunari request Vivienne's assistance in destroying Tevinter. They don't tell anyone to stay away.

[Dai Grepher]

????

 

Then I'm not even too sure what your issue with the writing is.

 

My issue is that Hissrad sided with Viddasala when all the evidence we found up to that point proved that Viddasala was a rogue operating outside the Qun at least, and an outright Tal-Vashoth at most. Also, she had no authority over Hissrad. Separate divisions.

 

If they wanted to make this storyline make sense, they would have used the Ariqun, not the Viddasala. The Ariqun rules over all aspects of the soul, including the entirety of the Ben-Hassrath. THAT is an authority figure that Hissrad would be compelled to obey no matter what.

[CoM Solaufein]

There's been a two year gap. I don't think he sticks around. He may have been reeducated by Viddasala.

[Dai Grepher]

The better question here is "Why wouldn't he side with the Qun?", especially if he's loyal to the Qun for either not doing his mission at all, or sacrificing the Chargers. It's ironic that people expect a dedicated Qunari spy to turn on the Qunari at this point. That Bull fits this to a tee should be obvious, if you've talked to him about his past under the Qun at all; he did turn himself in to the re-educators, knowing exactly how they work.

They made perfect sense: Your spying job is over, let's wrap this operation up.

 

That is not the question. The issue here is that he SHOULD side with the Qun. The Qun. Not Viddasala, who was not his superior and was acting outside the Qun in various ways that were all proved in the events leading up to Hissrad's death.

 

I did not expect him to turn on the Qunari. I expected him to kill the proven rogue Viddasala.

 

But his spy job wasn't over. If anything it was just beginning. Viddasala's plan was completely crushed by that point. Even if Par Vollen had sanction the operation, the operation was a failure by that point. In which case they would need Hissrad to remain an ally of the Inquisitor in order to keep giving them information.

[Sui Causa]

I'm going to quote something I said already here, just because it was when I was feeling more eloquent on Qun!Iron Bull.

 

Mostly because I really don't think Qun!Iron Bull expected for a second to succeed in killing the Inquisitor. The Qun demanded that he act, so he did. I don't think he had any personal feeling on the matter besides that.

 

 

I don’t think Qun!Iron Bull thought for a second he would succeed, or cared one way or another.

 

Something that’s struck me hard about Iron Bull betraying you is that he didn’t do it until he was directly ordered. He knew, but he didn’t harm the inquisitor in any way even though he had ample time to do it. They had just killed their way through so many qunari, Iron Bull knows what the Inquisitor is capable of… If he wanted to kill the Inquisitor he could have done it, and done it in a way that he knew wouldn’t end with his death.

I don’t think Iron Bull thought for a second he’d win that fight. But he had nothing but the Qun at that point, and the power of the Qun is so strong that when he’s ordered to die, he does it instantly and without regrets. (The sheer power that the Qun has over someone just pounds it into my mind that you need to cut that tie, it’s not something that can be romanticized or won over with the power of your love.)

 

I think when he got his orders, whenever it was, to betray the Inquisitor, he came to terms with it quickly, locked his **** down like a good qunari should, and did his duty. I honestly think he went into that room knowing his orders were a suicide mission, and because of the Qun was at total peace with that. He made the bas comment and the little challenging gesture to bait the Inquisitor, and chances are? It was to make sure that the Inquisitor did the job right.

 

Hissrad wasn’t a bad person. Hissrad in wot2 was a man torn apart by wanting to do good as a qunari and wanting to be good at being a qunari, the only thing he knows.

In demands of the Qun, he’s caught between what he  wants to do, and what he has to do, and its on such a razors edge the Inquisitor makes the call. If you sacrifice the chargers, Hissrad is reeducated on the spot that there is only certainty in the Qun.

I really can’t hate Qun! Iron Bull because he was never given a chance to be anything other than what he was. Tal-vashoth Iron Bull is proof that the first chance he was given to be something good, he ran with it and never looked back.

Basically, if Bull turns on you it’s because you never gave him a chance to be anything better.

 

Also Viddisalad was 'rogue' according to the Qunari who said she was. It's extremely possible, and by that I mean almost guaranteed, that they said "No guys we totally didn't mean that" when the plan failed only because the plan had failed. Viddisalad had the Antaam there, they were fully armed, they were ready for war. They disavowed it to prevent an Exalted March because they're not stupid. (Vivienne will actually say something along the lines of "First order of Business is to call an Exalted March on Par Vollen when I return" if she's Divine. Do you think they don't see that coming? They probably were planning for that possible outcome from the start.)

 

If you're going to metagame it, take into account the epilogue if you do have TalVashoth Iron Bull. All of the Qunari went back north and started to debate over what to do next. It makes it pretty clear that they're not being totally honest about their 'totally didn't actually mean for her to do that' intentions.

 

The Qunari **** all over your alliance once, they're not going to hesitate to do it again in the future. Until then they'll laugh at how these little 'alliances' that bas put so much faith in make it incredibly easy for them to prepare themselves for invasion at their own pace.

[Sealaria]

I'd have Bull betray me a couple of times before I'd even consider a junkie Cullen playthrough. I'll only ever experience that on youtube tbh.

 

Also, I'm jelly that he got a mabari, I miss my barkspawn.

 

It is sad to see it on youtube.  Seeing him reduced to that..<sniffles>  Yep, only good things for Cully Wully!

[Dai Grepher]

I had thought he mentioned it in one of his post-Demands conversations, but I could be mistaken.

 

They were using that asset; Iron Bull was continuing to act as a mole within the Inquisition. However, their original plan was disrupted when Solas got the Inquisitor involved in stopping Dragon's Breath. Thus, Iron Bull was brought into combat with the Inquisitor when all other options were exhausted, and where the Inquisitor would be most vulnerable on paper: The Darvaarad.

 

Conditioned to act in spite of what he was normally taught, yes.

 

Of course, I think you're getting ahead of yourself in presuming the aspects of the Qun. Some of the most common traits of the Qunari, like their chronic complaints regarding the "chaos" of the south, and their stance on magic, would actually be in conflict with one of the most predominantly featured scriptures:

 

There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.

 

Or maybe the Qun just isn't as defined and orderly as its adherents would present it to be. We're also making another assumption that there were higher-ups being defied.

 

If that were the case, one would expect said higher-ups to actually move in to correct this insubordination... not wait with bated breath and weapons at the ready to see if their plan actually succeeds, then go with the plan B invasion when it doesn't.

 

He says that they have some cleanup work to do after Corypheus, and then after that he will head back to Par Vollen to be debriefed. But he never says anything about reeducation, and the Qunari would not have brought it up either in that case since he proved himself loyal to the Qun.
 

Actually, he would be most vulnerable in the Crossroads or Library where Hissrad could just knock him off a cliff real fast. But Hissrad doesn't do this. And Viddasala does not call on Hissrad in the library either, which is the most logical time to do it, before Dragon's Breath can be stopped at the Davaarad. Instead, she calls on her forces to kill the Inquisitor, and by extension, Hissrad as well. I think the fact she called on Hissrad at such a desperate time proves that she was acting without authorization. She did not want to take that extra offense of removing the Qunari's spy from his purpose. But in that moment, it was all or nothing for her. Still, Hissrad should have recognized that desperation, and refused to follow the order from the woman who was not his commanding officer and was likely Tal-Vashoth by that point.

 

Well, when I replay the DLC, I will probably make that my headcanon; Hissrad was brainwashed to be a moron who ignores fact when it's right in front of his face. Or more likely I will take it all on my Inquisitor by having him leave Hissrad behind, thinking that keeps him out of it, when in fact leaving him out of it makes it so he doesn't discover the truth about Viddasala as the Inquisitor does. Thus, when Viddasala sends her order to Hissrad, he believes it is genuine, perhaps because Viddasala forged the Ariqun's seal or something. This kind of takes my Inquisitor down a peg, but such is that theme of this DLC, is it not?

 

I don't think it's an assumption that higher-ups were defined. At the very least, Viddasala calls on Hissrad to obey her, when in fact she has no authority over him at all.

 

According to the note, the Qunari were first made aware of this when Josephine sent her letter to them. That is when the antaam sprang into action to take Viddasala down. Nothing suggests they were waiting to see if her plan would succeed. In fact, Josephine's letter sort of indicates in and of itself that the plot already failed.