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[Dai Grepher]

And its clear as crystal that Vidassala was not a rogue agent, I dont know why people keep saying that.

 

Because there is a note from Par Vollen stating that she is. Also, her actions violate the Qun and her role.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes you did act that way by saying that Weekes doesn't know his own ****. And if he doesn't, neither does the rest of the writers. They just pull crap out of there asses right? I sure do when I write my stories.

And I say most writers because rarely do you see a writer who doesn't know there own world. If anyone knows their world more than anyone, the writer does. 

 

Get your head out of your ass. 

 

I wrote that if Weekes really said that, then it means he doesn't know his own story. Still no proof he actually said that though.

 

No, his alleged lack of knowledge and/or bad memory in no way affects the knowledge/memory of the other writers.

 

They don't pull anything from anywhere. This would simply be a case of Weekes being incorrect. IF he said that.

 

So you admit that it happens right? That a writer can make a mistake and forget about something they wrote? It's possible for them to be incorrect in a statement?

 

Well that was a rude comment.
 

[leaguer of one]

Because there is a note from Par Vollen stating that she is. Also, her actions violate the Qun and her role.

The note ether means Par Vollen is lying to the inquisition or that some there does not agree with her plan, not that they disallowed it.

 They have the anaatam ready to invade to sweep the south if the plan succeeds regardless.

[Dai Grepher]

Proof that the antaam is ready to sweep the south? And please no videos with "Qunari not allied" in the title.

 

From what I gathered, the antaam was preparing to go after Viddasala after learning of her treachery.

[SweetTeaholic]

I wrote that if Weekes really said that, then it means he doesn't know his own story. Still no proof he actually said that though.

 

No, his alleged lack of knowledge and/or bad memory in no way affects the knowledge/memory of the other writers.

 

They don't pull anything from anywhere. This would simply be a case of Weekes being incorrect. IF he said that.

 

So you admit that it happens right? That a writer can make a mistake and forget about something they wrote? It's possible for them to be incorrect in a statement?

 

Well that was a rude comment.
 

 

 

Yay for twisting my words around and making it seem as you're words are law and nothing but law.

 

No, Weekes knows his own story like I know my own story like any other writer knows their own story. You just want your head canons to be fact to make yourself feel better putting aside that almost everyone here pointed out that you're wrong on the matter and you only keep poking where more people are proving you wrong.

 

So yeah, as I said: get your head out of your ass, stop being smug and stop acting like you know it all. If it sounds rude, I'm sorry but apparently you need to get this in your head.

 

.

[Xcorpyo]

 

No, in my worldstate (Vivienne is Divine, alliance with the Qunari) the Qunari request Vivienne's assistance in destroying Tevinter. They don't tell anyone to stay away.

 

Well, the next game will probably give us some clues regarding her actions, and if she was under orders or not. We'll just have to agree to disagree until then.

 

As to the Vivienne part. That is even better for the Qunari plans.  My 'stay away' was my way of saying that the Qunari want to make sure nobody will help the Vints. They are more than welcome to attack their enemies. After all, they know about her thirst for power and her playing the game from their agents in the Inq. And Vivienne would sell her own children(if she has any) for a chance to go down in history as the Divine that destroyed Tevinter, where all the other divines before her failed.

 

But what the silly orlesians and their silly games don’t realise is that the big bad slavers are the only thing  that stands between the Qunari and all the other andrastean countries, Rivain, Antiva, the Free Marches, Nevarra and Orlais all having a common border with the Tevinter Imperium. And let's not forget what a couple hundred Qunari soldiers managed to do to Kirkwall, one of the three major cities of the Free Marches. 

 

And if Qunari can not only weaken the southern armies in the process, but actually use them to defeat their own enemies, even better.

 

The Qun and the Chantry are incompatible. The demands of the Qun is that in the end all must serve the Qun. The Chantry demands that in the end the Chant of Light must be heard from all the corners of the world, so same thing.  If there is an alliance, it will only last until the mages of Tevinter are defeated, then it’s total war.

 

Vivienne’s mistake is that she thinks she can play the Qunari after Tevinter is defeated with her mastery of the game, but sadly, she is wrong. She probably plans to raise an Exalted March(all the andrastian countries united) against the Qunari once the Tevinter Imperium is gone, but she, like everybody else, makes one tiny mistake, a mistake all orlesians do. They believe that the Qunari are just a bunch of savages that will be easily swept away under their might.

 

And in that she is wrong. The Qunari are at least a century more advanced in warfare technology, and if they use their Saarebas as well against an alliance that has few if any battle ready/loyal mages left, it will be a disaster. Only the Vints’ advanced battle magic is in any way capable of stopping the Qunari, and only barely. After they are gone from the picture it will be time for the other countries to say hi to an army filled with Saarebas and gatlok empowered weapons. The guys with the better guns win 9 times out of 10.

 

Their only salvation will be Fen’harel as usual. He will probably make his move, releasing the spirits and the ancient enemy he was fighting, everybody will have to ally themselves for real this time, and Orlais might live to see another day. Honestly, they should build the guy a statue or something.

[leaguer of one]

Proof that the antaam is ready to sweep the south? And please no videos with "Qunari not allied" in the title.

 

From what I gathered, the antaam was preparing to go after Viddasala after learning of her treachery.

Nope And the video is proof ....Word for word the result is what Viddasala stated. She said the plan fail and now they have to go to full on war and then as soon and the events in the dlc happen... the Qunari went on full on war.

 

Sorry, but you just being stubborn.

[robertthebard]

So it isn't a fact that not doing Demands of the Qun results in the Chargers still being alive and Iron Bull siding with Viddasala anyway?

This surprises you why? A man that told you right up front "my job is to infiltrate your inner circle and pass on information to my superiors" is doing just that and you're surprised? The problem here isn't bad writing, it's bad reading comprehension. The Iron Bull is a Qunari spy, first and foremost, unless you do his mission, and save the Chargers, in which case, he's Tal Vashoth. There are three ways this plays out: You do his mission, and save the Dreadnaught==IB is doing the job he told you on the Storm Coast he was going to be doing; You ignore his mission, and he's doing the job he told you he was doing on the Storm Coast, or you do his mission and save the Chargers, and IB becomes Tal Vashoth, and won't turn on you. Trying to claim bad writing on this is like trying to feign surprise that enemy soldiers are shooting at you.
 

Well I only say that about Weekes if he said what people claim he said. So far I have not seen a direct quote from him.
 
Most writers? Meaning some don't know their own story and characters? How dare you make such an accusation about writers?
 
Not saying I know it all. But I know this particular issue, and I posted fact to back it up.
 
Then you are angry for no good reason. I don't act that way, and even if I did, it shouldn't bother you. Almost everyone here replying to me are posting statements in a "matter of fact" tone. I don't mind it.

[TobiTobsen]

Because there is a note from Par Vollen stating that she is. Also, her actions violate the Qun and her role.

Plausible deniability and/or outright lying. Every black ops operation works like that. If you succeed, fine. If not, nobody has ever seen or heard from you and even if they admit they did, you were rogue anyway.

If preventing a spy or black ops scandal was as easy as giving every agent a "lol, wasn't me! Dude is rogue!" letter, everybody would do it.

[Hazegurl]

I don't believe for a moment that the Qun had no idea what she was doing. They knew and was all for it.  However, I also don't believe for a moment that they just sat back and waited for the plan to succeed or fail before making a decision. That would just be stupid.  I'm sure they had spies watching her and once her plan was on the verge of collapse they began to disavow her, declaring her Tal Voshoth.  Considering how desperate she was when she calls Bull to the fight. She could have known that she was either on her way out of the Qun or she was by that point.  In which case, removing their deepest spy within the Inquisition would have been the worst moves to make.  Unless sending Bull to his death doing his job for the Qun was a way to give him an honorable death; because by the end of Trespasser, spies are being rooted out.  Considering how well known Bull is now, he would be rendered useless as a spy by the end of the game anyway.

[Illyria]

My issue is that Hissrad sided with Viddasala when all the evidence we found up to that point proved that Viddasala was a rogue operating outside the Qun at least, and an outright Tal-Vashoth at most. Also, she had no authority over Hissrad. Separate divisions.

 

If they wanted to make this storyline make sense, they would have used the Ariqun, not the Viddasala. The Ariqun rules over all aspects of the soul, including the entirety of the Ben-Hassrath. THAT is an authority figure that Hissrad would be compelled to obey no matter what.

 

Viddasala is a high ranking member of the Ben-Hassrath.  The agents under her command are all Ben-Hassrath agents.  She called on Hissrad because he was one of her agents.

 

There is no proof that she acted outside the Qun.  The fact that the Qun has an antaam ready to sweep through the south is a pretty big inddication that she had full authority from her higher ups.

 

But I should just stop arguing this.  Clearly you are the only authority on Dragon Age lore and I must bow before your superior knowledge.  I'll let Weekes know he's now out of a job.

 

There's been a two year gap. I don't think he sticks around. He may have been reeducated by Viddasala.

 

Based on evidence in the game (Bull's dialouge about reeducation and the fact that he returns to Par Vollen in the endgame if his quest wasn't done) I'd say that's pretty much canon.

[Sui Causa]

In a banter with Dorian early in the game, when Dorian is being huffy because he keeps being inflicted by the sight of massive qunari muscles without a shirt, Iron Bull says something along the lines of "You see qunari in full armor, you run. Because it's war." He was explaining how it is extremely different from a few qunari slap fighting Tevinter off and on, how it meant an actual invasion.

 

The first thing you see of the qunar in Trespasser is a member of the Antaam in full armor, dead on your doorstep.

 

I think within the first 30 minutes of Trespasser we figured out that it's not just the Ben-Hassrath doing **** on their own here. They were taking care of the original plan while the Antaam prepared to sweep Thedas when all the nobility was dead and were in disarray.

 

When her part failed, the qunari dumped it on Viddisalad's head and went back to Par Vollen to figure out what to do next.

 

"No guys! I allied the Qunari and we're definitely bros and they wouldn't turn on me they definitely have to be not lieing when they say that they weren't with her! We're going to be friends forever! And they totally wouldn't turn on me again!"

 

Allying with the Qunari isn't going to work out, guys. It just isn't. You've got better luck supporting Dorian as he reforms Tevinter, because then you've got an ally that proven it can actually withstand the qunari invasion when it happens.

[Kurogane335]

Reform Tevinter... there is nothing to reform in this shithole. Seriously, if we can't end the next game with tevinter utterly destroyed, I won't bother buying it. I don't want to help those degenerates in destroying the Qunari society. Why would I want to destroy the only society which cares for the well being of all its members and not just the powerful in the first place, anyway.

[QueenCrow]

Last night, I had a conversation with a friend who has played DAII, but not DAI.  I explained the Bull betrayal and also that rumor has it that the writer said Bull betrays you if you don't sever him from the Qunari and place him firmly with the Chargers.

 

He responded, "That's really racist."  My reaction was basically, "wtf?  How is that racist?"

 

Where I live there was a government institution a little over a hundred years ago.  Remnants of it still remain.  The idea was that young Native Americans were taken away from their families and taught to be as white as possible.  Of course, they were forever doomed to live in brown skin in a world where brown skin = enemy.  And Indians were enemies because they thought they had a right to the same land that white people believed they had a right to.  But in short, they needed to be helped to the right way of living and none of them were given a choice in the matter.

 

So the Qunari are enemies.  They're different and they think they have a right to the same lands that Tevinters, Orlesians, and Fereldens, or Elves, think they should rule.  Plus, they look different and their culture is strange and foreign.  So what we should do about that is sever Iron Bull from his people and make him fit in with the Inquisition (is he the only Qunari aside from a possible Adaar?) and the humans and elves of the Chargers.  Nevermind his horns and grey skin showing that he is a Qunari.  The moral of the story is that if we want to make Bull better, we have to change him into something less Qunari.

 

Now, maybe that's a stretch.  It's possible my friend reacted on a personal level because he's Native American.  But I see his point.  And with that perspective, I'll take the betrayal or whatever punishment the writers dish out for seeing the merit in letting Bull be what he is.  

[sylvanaerie]

Last night, I had a conversation with a friend who has played DAII, but not DAI.  I explained the Bull betrayal and also that rumor has it that the writer said Bull betrays you if you don't sever him from the Qunari and place him firmly with the Chargers.

 

He responded, "That's really racist."  My reaction was basically, "wtf?  How is that racist?"

 

Where I live there was a government institution a little over a hundred years ago.  Remnants of it still remain.  The idea was that young Native Americans were taken away from their families and taught to be as white as possible.  Of course, they were forever doomed to live in brown skin in a world where brown skin = enemy.  And Indians were enemies because they thought they had a right to the same land that white people believed they had a right to.  But in short, they needed to be helped to the right way of living and none of them were given a choice in the matter.

 

So the Qunari are enemies.  They're different and they think they have a right to the same lands that Tevinters, Orlesians, and Fereldens, or Elves, think they should rule.  Plus, they look different and their culture is strange and foreign.  So what we should do about that is sever Iron Bull from his people and make him fit in with the Inquisition (is he the only Qunari aside from a possible Adaar?) and the humans and elves of the Chargers.  Nevermind his horns and grey skin showing that he is a Qunari.  The moral of the story is that if we want to make Bull better, we have to change him into something less Qunari.

 

Now, maybe that's a stretch.  It's possible my friend reacted on a personal level because he's Native American.  But I see his point.  And with that perspective, I'll take the betrayal or whatever punishment the writers dish out for seeing the merit in letting Bull be what he is.  

 

An interesting perspective.  I just have one problem with this.  If Bull were a child, taken from his Qunari family and raised in a Tevinter household it would be more relevant.

 

Iron Bull is an adult.  He is an adult old enough to make his own choices.  He doesn't have a family in the Qun.  The closest he has is his Tamassran.  From interactions with him and the Chargers you can see, though they may not share blood, they share a lot more bonding them. These are more than his friends, these are Bull's family.  They couldn't be more family if they all had horns and grey skin themselves.

 

Now, grant you, it's the player calling the shots, and if  you choose the save the Chargers, Bull backs you up 100%.  I've never done the opposite scenario, but I would imagine he pretty much does the same.  After you choose to save the Chargers, you have a discussion with him a couple times (once when assassins try to strike at him) and he tells you he's okay with it.  I imagine his response is similar if you sacrifice the Chargers for the alliance.

 

But, if you choose the Qun over the Chargers, Bull is obviously having difficulties accepting what he's feeling since he leaves to go back for reeducation.  He is conflicted and seeking reassurance that he made the right choice (even if it's the player making it--the AI can only do so much).

 

Bull isn't alone in the south.  There are other Tal-vashoth he can join if he chooses.  The inquisitor may even be a Tal-vashoth.  Regardless, after his rededication to the Qun, to Bull the Inquisitor isn't friend, he's bas.  And if you never change his heart, your inquisitor will always be bas to him.

[abisha]

wish they made more "self emotional" characters.

think Iron bull is perfect it's feels like a human turning against you is only a logical outcome when you fight against your own kind.

 

this will happens also in real life if ever a situation accuse.

 

to many of those sheep followers in DA:I bah.

even in NWN most party members turn against you at the end game.

[Wulfram]

Last night, I had a conversation with a friend who has played DAII, but not DAI.  I explained the Bull betrayal and also that rumor has it that the writer said Bull betrays you if you don't sever him from the Qunari and place him firmly with the Chargers.
 
He responded, "That's really racist."  My reaction was basically, "wtf?  How is that racist?"
 
Where I live there was a government institution a little over a hundred years ago.  Remnants of it still remain.  The idea was that young Native Americans were taken away from their families and taught to be as white as possible.  Of course, they were forever doomed to live in brown skin in a world where brown skin = enemy.  And Indians were enemies because they thought they had a right to the same land that white people believed they had a right to.  But in short, they needed to be helped to the right way of living and none of them were given a choice in the matter.
 
So the Qunari are enemies.  They're different and they think they have a right to the same lands that Tevinters, Orlesians, and Fereldens, or Elves, think they should rule.  Plus, they look different and their culture is strange and foreign.  So what we should do about that is sever Iron Bull from his people and make him fit in with the Inquisition (is he the only Qunari aside from a possible Adaar?) and the humans and elves of the Chargers.  Nevermind his horns and grey skin showing that he is a Qunari.  The moral of the story is that if we want to make Bull better, we have to change him into something less Qunari.
 
Now, maybe that's a stretch.  It's possible my friend reacted on a personal level because he's Native American.  But I see his point.  And with that perspective, I'll take the betrayal or whatever punishment the writers dish out for seeing the merit in letting Bull be what he is.

Its worth remembering that ultimately Iron Bull isn't forced into anything. He chooses to blow his horn and recall the Chargers. He disapproves when you say things that take responsibility for his choice.

You're not making him abandon his culture any more than you're forcing him to go back to the Qun and get "re-educated". Doing either of those things would be wrong, but in both cases the choice is his.

Of course the Qun does invite conclusions that are difficult to reconcile with modern ideals of tolerance, because its essentially an evil religion and we don't really have a good answer as to how to deal with that. It doesn't help that Thedas doesn't seem to contain a "moderate Qun" - people who reject the really bad stuff but still consider themselves Qunari rather than abandoning it and becoming Tal-Vashoth.

(I wouldn't mind being an Anarcho-Qunist)

[QueenCrow]

An interesting perspective.  I just have one problem with this.  If Bull were a child, taken from his Qunari family and raised in a Tevinter household it would be more relevant.

 

Iron Bull is an adult.  He is an adult old enough to make his own choices.  He doesn't have a family in the Qun.  The closest he has is his Tamassran.  From interactions with him and the Chargers you can see, though they may not share blood, they share a lot more bonding them. These are more than his friends, these are Bull's family.  They couldn't be more family if they all had horns and grey skin themselves.

 

Now, grant you, it's the player calling the shots, and if  you choose the save the Chargers, Bull backs you up 100%.  I've never done the opposite scenario, but I would imagine he pretty much does the same.  After you choose to save the Chargers, you have a discussion with him a couple times (once when assassins try to strike at him) and he tells you he's okay with it.  I imagine his response is similar if you sacrifice the Chargers for the alliance.

 

But, if you choose the Qun over the Chargers, Bull is obviously having difficulties accepting what he's feeling since he leaves to go back for reeducation.  He is conflicted and seeking reassurance that he made the right choice (even if it's the player making it--the AI can only do so much).

 

Bull isn't alone in the south.  There are other Tal-vashoth he can join if he chooses.  The inquisitor may even be a Tal-vashoth.  Regardless, after his rededication to the Qun, to Bull the Inquisitor isn't friend, he's bas.  And if you never change his heart, your inquisitor will always be bas to him.

 

I see your point.  And you're right.  There's always something more insidious about severing children from their people, or doing anything destructive to children.  They are more defenseless than, say, the parents who had to watch their children be taken and were given no choice.  

 

But looking at the same kind of situation with another character, it makes no difference to me that Dorian is an adult when it's revealed that his father tried to make him less gay, less himself, because that's what those around him have decided is best for him.

 

I guess the deciding factor is whether or not the player considers that allowing Bull to remain Qunari is the best decision, or severing him from his people and making him Tal-Vashoth is the better decision (this decision freely made without the unnecessary and intrusive moral judgment of the writer and/or other players)

[TobiTobsen]

Last night, I had a conversation with a friend who has played DAII, but not DAI.  I explained the Bull betrayal and also that rumor has it that the writer said Bull betrays you if you don't sever him from the Qunari and place him firmly with the Chargers.

 

He responded, "That's really racist."  My reaction was basically, "wtf?  How is that racist?"

 

Where I live there was a government institution a little over a hundred years ago.  Remnants of it still remain.  The idea was that young Native Americans were taken away from their families and taught to be as white as possible.  Of course, they were forever doomed to live in brown skin in a world where brown skin = enemy.  And Indians were enemies because they thought they had a right to the same land that white people believed they had a right to.  But in short, they needed to be helped to the right way of living and none of them were given a choice in the matter.

 

So the Qunari are enemies.  They're different and they think they have a right to the same lands that Tevinters, Orlesians, and Fereldens, or Elves, think they should rule.  Plus, they look different and their culture is strange and foreign.  So what we should do about that is sever Iron Bull from his people and make him fit in with the Inquisition (is he the only Qunari aside from a possible Adaar?) and the humans and elves of the Chargers.  Nevermind his horns and grey skin showing that he is a Qunari.  The moral of the story is that if we want to make Bull better, we have to change him into something less Qunari.

 

Now, maybe that's a stretch.  It's possible my friend reacted on a personal level because he's Native American.  But I see his point.  And with that perspective, I'll take the betrayal or whatever punishment the writers dish out for seeing the merit in letting Bull be what he is.  

 

If that's racist, what exactly is the Qunari policy of "stop being a thing or we brainwash/kill you... for your own good."? 

[QueenCrow]

Its worth remembering that ultimately Iron Bull isn't forced into anything. He chooses to blow his horn and recall the Chargers. He disapproves when you say things that take responsibility for his choice.

You're not making him abandon his culture any more than you're forcing him to go back to the Qun and get "re-educated". Doing either of those things would be wrong, but in both cases the choice is his.

Of course the Qun does invite conclusions that are difficult to reconcile with modern ideals of tolerance, because its essentially an evil religion and we don't really have a good answer as to how to deal with that. It doesn't help that Thedas doesn't seem to contain a "moderate Qun" - people who reject the really bad stuff but still consider themselves Qunari rather than abandoning it and becoming Tal-Vashoth.

(I wouldn't mind being an Anarcho-Qunist)

 

True.  It's reasonable to say that Bull gets the final decision.  I suppose they could have written it into the dialogue the he refuses the Inquisitor's decision.  Ultimately, it is we players who are clicking the choice button.

 

As regards the Qun, I see the situation in Trespasser as Freedom/Chaos (Solas, "people will burn in the chaos") vs. Qun/Order (Iron Bull and where does he fit?  Freedom and Chaos or the Order he receives from the Qun?).  I think the writer is inclined to edge Iron Bull's philosophy toward Solas'.  I could be reading too much into it, however, since I became aware that the same writer is creating both characters.  And it's hard to separate characters from personal philosophical bias.  The best authors trip over that task.

[QueenCrow]

If that's racist, what exactly is the Qunari policy of "stop being a thing or we brainwash/kill you... for your own good."? 

 

My opinion is - that's also racist?

[Lazengan]

this "muh guns" argument

 

you people understand wow inaccurate and volatile early blackpowder weapons are right?

[Korva]

...Then come to Inqusition, where you find out he's decided you're (you being the Warden, still) dead and wants you stricken as that in records and had YOUR paragon statue made purposely smaller then the other statues.  Betraying baby bro, on the other hand?  He's convinced you're alive and will return and refuses to hear anyone say differently, and has your Paragon statue proudly in front of the palace.

 

Wow. My noble dwarf didn't get further than the origin, but yeah that would have been a gut punch (provided she'd have survived long enough). Is there any explanation for why Harrowmont turned into such a backstabbing tosser?

[PsychoBlonde]

On this subject though while the IB thing was perhaps a little wonky (imo) this does suggest an interesting route for DA in the future under Pat Weekes.  Iron Bull, Sera, Solas, and Cullen all suffered gigantic consquences based on what you did to them and their arcs in the game.  Also Cole.  Its bold writing whether they make it work remains to be seen. 

 

Not to mention Cassandra, Leliana, and Vivienne, all of whom could potentially be the Divine.  Or Blackwall, who could be executed or a free man or a Grey Warden . . .

[Nixou]

Wow. My noble dwarf didn't get further than the origin, but yeah that would have been a gut punch (provided she'd have survived long enough). Is there any explanation for why Harrowmont turned into such a backstabbing tosser?

 

 

I suspect that Harrowmont himself is not a backstabbing tosser... but most traditionalist Deshyrs are and Harrowmont most probably lacked the will to challenge them.