657 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

this "muh guns" argument

 

you people understand wow inaccurate and volatile early blackpowder weapons are right?

 

I would think that, at best, it would make them unstoppable on the water, but apparently they couldn't even manage that.

[Ryzaki]

It's interesting, because this reminds me of this old comic book series I used to read. The villain did want to go back in time to stop an ancient cataclysm from happening, but that would cause death on a massive scale also because all of the children and descendants that were born because of the tragedy would be erased from existence. So even if Solas did go back in time to stop himself, a lot of people wouldn't be alive anymore.

 

Yeah but for me at least it'd be different. It'd not a question of mass murder in that scenario as much as a mass change. You can't feel your death if it you're never born in the first place so at least it'd be a bit easier to swallow at the very least.

 

Where's tearing down the veil and going "well good luck with that!" Is just a complete douche move as far as I'm concerned.

[squirrely1]

Last night, I had a conversation with a friend who has played DAII, but not DAI.  I explained the Bull betrayal and also that rumor has it that the writer said Bull betrays you if you don't sever him from the Qunari and place him firmly with the Chargers.

 

He responded, "That's really racist."  My reaction was basically, "wtf?  How is that racist?"

 

Where I live there was a government institution a little over a hundred years ago.  Remnants of it still remain.  The idea was that young Native Americans were taken away from their families and taught to be as white as possible.  Of course, they were forever doomed to live in brown skin in a world where brown skin = enemy.  And Indians were enemies because they thought they had a right to the same land that white people believed they had a right to.  But in short, they needed to be helped to the right way of living and none of them were given a choice in the matter.

 

So the Qunari are enemies.  They're different and they think they have a right to the same lands that Tevinters, Orlesians, and Fereldens, or Elves, think they should rule.  Plus, they look different and their culture is strange and foreign.  So what we should do about that is sever Iron Bull from his people and make him fit in with the Inquisition (is he the only Qunari aside from a possible Adaar?) and the humans and elves of the Chargers.  Nevermind his horns and grey skin showing that he is a Qunari.  The moral of the story is that if we want to make Bull better, we have to change him into something less Qunari.

 

Now, maybe that's a stretch.  It's possible my friend reacted on a personal level because he's Native American.  But I see his point.  And with that perspective, I'll take the betrayal or whatever punishment the writers dish out for seeing the merit in letting Bull be what he is.  

That's it....we'll grind off his horns like in Hell Boy

[sylvanaerie]

It's interesting, because this reminds me of this old comic book series I used to read. The villain did want to go back in time to stop an ancient cataclysm from happening, but that would cause death on a massive scale also because all of the children and descendants that were born because of the tragedy would be erased from existence. So even if Solas did go back in time to stop himself, a lot of people wouldn't be alive anymore.

 

That sounds like what Rayek wanted to do in Elfquest.  Go back in time to prevent the disaster that stranded the High Ones on the World of Two Moons.

[Tamyn]

That sounds like what Rayek wanted to do in Elfquest.  Go back in time to prevent the disaster that stranded the High Ones on the World of Two Moons.

 

That's exactly whom I was referring to.

 

I see Solas as a lot like him now, except Solas was actually there, and one of them.

 

"I pity you... that this is your be-all and end-all! I pity you, that your body must age and decay." - Rayek

[sylvanaerie]

That's exactly who I was referring to.

 

I see Solas as a lot like him now, except Solas was actually there, and one of them.

Yes, I kept seeing Rayek peeking out of Solas every once in a while.  

[Uirebhiril]

People who are familiar with ElfQuest make me happy. And I am inclined to agree. 

[leaguer of one]

People who are familiar with ElfQuest make me happy. And I am inclined to agree. 

I always wondered how it ended.

[sylvanaerie]

People who are familiar with ElfQuest make me happy. And I am inclined to agree. 

I discovered Elfquest in my early 20s and fell in love!  I miss those books, and I miss the Wolfriders.  I always imagined my Mahariel a little like Nightfall or a female Cutter.

[leaguer of one]

I discovered Elfquest in my early 20s and fell in love!  I miss those books, and I miss the Wolfriders.  I always imagined my Mahariel a little like Nightfall or a female Cutter.

In borders book store, right?

 

they were great...Never got to the ending though.

[sylvanaerie]

In borders book store, right?

 

they were great...Never got to the ending though.

 

For me it was the graphic novels (oh the pretty colors...) from Walden books in the mall.  I have seen the black and white originals in the local comic store. 

 

If you go to their official website, I think the Pini's posted copies of their old stories on the internet (though I am unsure how complete it is).  I had all the comics and books they released except for the final graphic novel (which I did read online) so didn't need to read them all online.

 

And sorry to jump the track of the thread off topic.  I'll shut up now...

[BansheeOwnage]

 

And as if the possibility of betrayal isn't enough, there's that final shiv in the ribs that leaves inquisitor as a Thedosian laughing stock.  

 

 

Mean.  Like, control freak mean.  And really unnecessary. 

That's really horrible. And he rips her arm off too. Wow, that really sucks for the Inquisitor and all Tal-Vashoth

 

The romance epilogue card does seem a bit uncalled for. No one gives my Lavellan crap for banging Solas, even though he's still out there plotting to destroy the world.

Good point, or Blackwall for that matter. Then there is Cullen and lyrium... So, does that mean that depending on your decisions, all of the options for straight female Inquisitors get something like this? Ouch!

[Uirebhiril]

That's really horrible. And he rips her arm off too. Wow, that really sucks for the Inquisitor and all Tal-Vashoth

 

Oh, wow, that's harsh. I never romanced Bull, and never let the Chargers die. But now I sure feel for everyone that did. They didn't pull any punches for some of the outcomes, did they? And secretly I love that they didn't.

[QueenCrow]

Oh, wow, that's harsh. I never romanced Bull, and never let the Chargers die. But now I sure feel for everyone that did. They didn't pull any punches for some of the outcomes, did they? And secretly I love that they didn't.

 

I don't want to single you out, and certainly don't wish to offend or insult you in any way.  But feeling like I don't understand is not a good place to be, and since you said that you love (not so secret anymore ) that they didn't pull their punch, I feel like you're a good person to ask.

 

 

 

#BiowareTalk with @PatrickWeekes our goal is to give the players the type of fantasy fulfillment they want Re-Iron Bull

http://forum.bioware...patrick-weekes/

 

My question is:  Is that kind of unpulled punch a fantasy for you, or is it the idea that someone else could get that ending that you love?

 

And I have a question for the general public - I'm asking because I've noted that there is a decent population of people who have said they like tragic endings.

 

Is there anyone who fantasizes about being betrayed by their lover, having to kill him, then be accused of being a lust-duped stooge who is responsible for a near invasion and mocked for years in public plays?  Is there a significant number of people who want that fantasy enough to pay $100 and spend as many hours playing for it?

[sylvanaerie]

I don't want to single you out, and certainly don't wish to offend or insult you in any way.  But feeling like I don't understand is not a good place to be, and since you said that you love (not so secret anymore ) that they didn't pull their punch, I feel like you're a good person to ask.

 

http://forum.bioware...patrick-weekes/

 

My question is:  Is that kind of unpulled punch a fantasy for you, or is it the idea that someone else could get that ending that you love?

 

And I have a question for the general public - I'm asking because I've noted that there is a decent population of people who have said they like tragic endings.

 

Is there anyone who fantasizes about being betrayed by their lover, having to kill him, then be accused of being a lust-duped stooge who is responsible for a near invasion and mocked for years in public plays?  Is there a significant number of people who want that fantasy enough to pay $100 and spend as many hours playing for it?

 

Not me, I go for the 'Disney' ending because I prefer my pixel people to be happy.  I can't even be mean to my Sims.

[Uirebhiril]

I don't want to single you out, and certainly don't wish to offend or insult you in any way.  But feeling like I don't understand is not a good place to be, and since you said that you love (not so secret anymore ) that they didn't pull their punch, I feel like you're a good person to ask.

 

My question is:  Is that kind of unpulled punch a fantasy for you, or do is it the idea that someone else could unwitting get that ending?

 

I like a good story. Sometimes that means I want the fluffy rainbows and sweet feelings, and other times I want to be made to feel everything that is happening to my character. I want to be drawn into the world and experience the emotions full-force. I also like to see a world where not everything is going to end well, because not everything will. So yes, I like that punches were not pulled with some endings.

 

I just want this to be, ultimately, a choice.

 

If I played through and romanced Bull and didn't save the Chargers, I would feel that gut-punch and I would love it. I would hurt, but I would appreciate and respect how it made sense for the story and how no one held back from letting me experience it. Stories are about wish fulfillment and fantasy, but sometimes people do want to see what the darker side of things can be like. Most people are not going to sacrifice kids or go full Sith lord in real life, but if we want to understand the world and how these things can happen, a game or story can give us that opportunity to experience just that so we can answer questions for ourselves. That is why good storytelling is important, and it's also why it is important for not every story to be fun and end with unicorns.

 

But it does still come down to choice. You can save every squad mate in ME2, or you could kill some off depending on choices your Shepard could make. You could have Bull betray you, or you can make your "perfect run" one where he flips off the Qun and becomes Tal-Vashoth. So while your first run might be a minefield of angst, you do have ultimate say on how your fantasy goes. And for every person that will avoid the bad outcomes our choices can cause, there will be another who selects specifically for a particular bad thing. That's the great beauty about games like this, and I sure hope they keep this up in the future.

 

And I'm perfectly sure that someone out there is playing a Bullmancer that really IS a lust-doped stooge because it fits the narrative they made in their head for their character.

[QueenCrow]

I like a good story. Sometimes that means I want the fluffy rainbows and sweet feelings, and other times I want to be made to feel everything that is happening to my character. I want to be drawn into the world and experience the emotions full-force. I also like to see a world where not everything is going to end well, because not everything will. So yes, I like that punches were not pulled with some endings.

 

I just want this to be, ultimately, a choice.

 

If I played through and romanced Bull and didn't save the Chargers, I would feel that gut-punch and I would love it. I would hurt, but I would appreciate and respect how it made sense for the story and how no one held back from letting me experience it. Stories are about wish fulfillment and fantasy, but sometimes people do want to see what the darker side of things can be like. Most people are not going to sacrifice kids or go full Sith lord in real life, but if we want to understand the world and how these things can happen, a game or story can give us that opportunity to experience just that so we can answer questions for ourselves. That is why good storytelling is important, and it's also why it is important for not every story to be fun and end with unicorns.

 

But it does still come down to choice. You can save every squad mate in ME2, or you could kill some off depending on choices your Shepard could make. You could have Bull betray you, or you can make your "perfect run" one where he flips off the Qun and becomes Tal-Vashoth. So while your first run might be a minefield of angst, you do have ultimate say on how your fantasy goes. And for every person that will avoid the bad outcomes our choices can cause, there will be another who selects specifically for a particular bad thing. That's the great beauty about games like this, and I sure hope they keep this up in the future.

 

And I'm perfectly sure that someone out there is playing a Bullmancer that really IS a lust-doped stooge because it fits the narrative they made in their head for their character.

 

Thank you, sincerely, for answering.  What you've said seems like a reasonable explanation for the existence of an audience for that gut-punch ending.  A masochistic fantasy experience is available in Iron Bull, and once players figure out what the character is about, they have the choice to avoid him entirely if that's not their gig.

 

Until players figure out what the character is about, and thus have that choice you talk about, naturally some will get an unwitting experience that is opposed to their fantasy fulfillment and response will range from dissatisfaction to anger, disappointment or disenchantment (i.e. OP).

[Arvaarad]

Now, maybe that's a stretch.  It's possible my friend reacted on a personal level because he's Native American.  But I see his point.  And with that perspective, I'll take the betrayal or whatever punishment the writers dish out for seeing the merit in letting Bull be what he is.  

 

I think this touches on something that I have trouble articulating about this quest. Now, personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with the way the quest is presented in game. I think it's presented remarkably well. There are layers and layers of ethical judgment, but it's disguised as a simple "do you pick power, or people?" choice.

 

The people on the dreadnought are intentionally not shown. The people on the dreadnought are intentionally not named. The people on the dreadnought are intentionally from an "evil empire". We've intentionally seen no civilians from that empire, just soldiers and spies. The alliance, too, is intentional. It shifts players' thinking from "should I sacrifice people for people" to "should I sacrifice people for power", even though the other group of people is still present.

 

It's a well-constructed choice, a complex choice, but it's so often reduced to "lol you're a monster if you pick anything but the Chargers".

 

To me, the real-world parallel is less about the erasure of Bull's culture, and more about how we treat foreigners in general as expendable. If I can't see them, if the news cameras aren't pointed directly at their faces, what does it matter if a hundred of them die tomorrow? I haven't met them, and the footage I've seen of their culture (aka the most aggressive, radical elements of their culture that push themselves to the front lines) paints a picture of tyranny and oppression. Maybe if a few of them die here and there, it isn't such a huge problem. Hell, maybe the world would be better if they were wiped out completely. And isn't it necessary to keep my friends and neighbors safe?

 

Oh, some of those foreigners died working alongside "our boys"? Well, at least our boys made it home safe and sound. The rest doesn't matter. But if one of our boys had died, we'd raze their cities to the ground to flush out the culprits. Because the ones that aren't outright evil, they're expendable. They're pawns. They're nothing. A blank space while the cameras move to something more interesting.

 

 

In short, I think the quest is brilliant, and a lot less straightforward than people give it credit for.

[BSpud]

Is there anyone who fantasizes about being betrayed by their lover, having to kill him, then be accused of being a lust-duped stooge who is responsible for a near invasion and mocked for years in public plays?  Is there a significant number of people who want that fantasy enough to pay $100 and spend as many hours playing for it?

 

Wtf. I swear, this thread has veered into crazypants land.

[Marshal Moriarty]

I may not care for Bull very much as a character, but I have no problem with this. He was a soldier, he was given an order by his superior and he followed it. If anyone is at fault, its your own character for continuing to trust him after Corypheus is defeated. He's an admitted spy - what did you expect? He may be working for you now, but he's *always* working for them.

 

I let the Chargers die, so if I ever play Tresspasser, I guess he'll turn on me, People think its a kindness to turn him from the Qun, but he makes it very clear how important it is to him. 'Happiness is fleeting, Honor is Eternal' as they say. He may be alright in the short term seeing as his guys survived, but his soul... You can't just take a man's spiritual side and tell him he doesn't need it. He believes in what the Qun stands for, and he wants to help his people (i.e all Qunari). Making him outcast from all of that is no kindness IMO.

 

And a death in service of something you love and believe in, is not a bad way to go.

[IRON SKORPIQN]

People need to appreciate "Character" and depth there of, as well as "Relationships" which are all different... some last a lifetime and others are beautiful but over in seconds or whatever... appreciate the Experience.

 

 

Bull is a great character. He both cares for the Qun and sometimes questions it. He said himself it wasn't perfect and has struggled with the ideals from time to time. Bull, metaphorically speaking is just human... he made a choice.

 

 

There is no "Right" or "Wrong" way to play the game, only a way...

[denise12184]

People need to appreciate "Character" and depth there of, as well as "Relationships" which are all different... some last a lifetime and others are beautiful but over in seconds or whatever... appreciate the Experience.

 

 

Bull is a great character. He both cares for the Qun and sometimes questions it. He said himself it wasn't perfect and has struggled with the ideals from time to time. Bull, metaphorically speaking is just human... he made a choice.

 

 

There is no "Right" or "Wrong" way to play the game, only a way...

This^^. So much. Whatever the player decides has no bearing on who that person is. It's a video game. This holier-than-thou attitude some people get over a decision they made in a video game makes no sense to me. Remember the endings for ME3? Some people picked their favorite color and if you picked something different, it somehow made you a horrible person. All choices are valid. It just depends on what kind of character you want to play. (Collective you, btw. Not trying to single anyone out)

[QueenCrow]

I think this touches on something that I have trouble articulating about this quest. Now, personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with the way the quest is presented in game. I think it's presented remarkably well. There are layers and layers of ethical judgment, but it's disguised as a simple "do you pick power, or people?" choice.

 

The people on the dreadnought are intentionally not shown. The people on the dreadnought are intentionally not named. The people on the dreadnought are intentionally from an "evil empire". We've intentionally seen no civilians from that empire, just soldiers and spies. The alliance, too, is intentional. It shifts players' thinking from "should I sacrifice people for people" to "should I sacrifice people for power", even though the other group of people is still present.

 

It's a well-constructed choice, a complex choice, but it's so often reduced to "lol you're a monster if you pick anything but the Chargers".

 

To me, the real-world parallel is less about the erasure of Bull's culture, and more about how we treat foreigners in general as expendable. If I can't see them, if the news cameras aren't pointed directly at their faces, what does it matter if a hundred of them die tomorrow? I haven't met them, and the footage I've seen of their culture (aka the most aggressive, radical elements of their culture that push themselves to the front lines) paints a picture of tyranny and oppression. Maybe if a few of them die here and there, it isn't such a huge problem. Hell, maybe the world would be better if they were wiped out completely. And isn't it necessary to keep my friends and neighbors safe?

 

Oh, some of those foreigners died working alongside "our boys"? Well, at least our boys made it home safe and sound. The rest doesn't matter. But if one of our boys had died, we'd raze their cities to the ground to flush out the culprits. Because the ones that aren't outright evil, they're expendable. They're pawns. They're nothing. A blank space while the cameras move to something more interesting.

 

 

In short, I think the quest is brilliant, and a lot less straightforward than people give it credit for.

That's a frigging brilliant post! Your explanation of how we humans in general treat "the other" and often view foreigners as expendable is something I'd not thought of, and it's a good thing to think about for anyone who cares enough about video game characters to think about them.  Perhaps many of the people who have the attitude "lol you're a monster if you pick anything but the Chargers" are doing just what you've said - viewing Qunari as expendable foreigners or "the other" (please forgive my sideways Edward Said reference).

 

And maybe that's why I have had a hard time understanding what I perceive as a lopsided distribution of negative consequence.  The Qunari on the dreadnaught, to me, are people like Bull is a person.  The alliance was important to me (during the turn that I clicked "save the dreadnaught") because I believed, based upon the dialogue about how carefully he'd arranged it and that it was the first time such an alliance had been attempted, that it was important to Bull.  But perhaps it was written to be just what you've said and the concept reinforced with purposeful cause and effect.

 

The Qunari who aren't outright evil are expendable.  (The only good Qunari is a dead Qunari?) They're pawns.  They're nothing but blank space to be skimmed while the cameras pan over to the Chargers.

 

Ah well.  Perhaps next game ...

 

Thank you for making the post.  For someone who professed a hard time articulating your point, you've done it quite well.

[Ryzaki]

This^^. So much. Whatever the player decides has no bearing on who that person is. It's a video game. This holier-than-thou attitude some people get over a decision they made in a video game makes no sense to me. Remember the endings for ME3? Some people picked their favorite color and if you picked something different, it somehow made you a horrible person. All choices are valid. It just depends on what kind of character you want to play. (Collective you, btw. Not trying to single anyone out)

 

I don't think it makes anyone a horrible person. My the complaining about what happens is where I just start going "really really? We're complaining about consequences for our actions now?"

 

Also I'm not sure why people are bringing up "but if we got to know the soldiers we'd feel bad.

 

We have been introduced to the soldiers of the qunari. I'd still blow them up. On a whole they tend to talk about how they're gonna to invade, enlighten us, how we're dumb, how I can't fight (female), how I'm a thing (mage) like...screw thaaaaaaaaaaat.

[denise12184]

I don't think it makes anyone a horrible person. My the complaining about what happens is where I just start going "really really? We're complaining about consequences for our actions now?"

Yeah, I get that. But there are several responses where people act like the decision they made is the right one, and if you didn't make the same one, you don't think people are people, or you're just a heartless murderer.

 

There were consequences for making Bull Tal-Vashoth. He had to deal with assassins, for starters, and it's shown in several banters that he is plagued with self doubt now that he doesn't have the Qun. You also miss out on some missions, and a cool staff schematic, from what I've heard - I've never actually got to try that staff out. Maybe the game could have gone a bit further in depth on what the consequences were, but they were there.

 

Allying with the Qun didn't seem to have any real consequences in the main game as far as I could tell. Now it does, and I have no problem with that. It's just the 'if you chose X, it means you think Y' attitude that gets to me. It's perfectly valid to save or sacrifice the Chargers, and different people have different (valid) reasons for doing so.