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[Gold Dragon]

Wickedly Evil Plot Twist:

 

Come Next game, those who saved the Chargers will find themselves having a harder time with some parts of the quests, while those as sacrificed the Chargers will find things rather easy.

[robertthebard]

Wickedly Evil Plot Twist:
 
Come Next game, those who saved the Chargers will find themselves having a harder time with some parts of the quests, while those as sacrificed the Chargers will find things rather easy.

How would that work, exactly? Are you planning on fighting a band of mercs, and one way it's them? Either way, a competent band of mercs is a competent band of mercs. IB won't make them invincible, if he could, it would be almost impossible to beat him if he turns on you. It's not.

[Kurogane335]

Well, the one true problem with IB storyline (separated from the romance) is that you gain nothing of worth if you side with the Qun. After all, your character doesn't know he will get a staff, and to be honest, in the game I allied with them, I never used the schema to create this staff. Sure, you get some minor missions, but you would get just as much from the Charger. And comes Trespasser, while I'm happy that the consequences of your choice rear their head, the problem is that they are so outright imbalanced that I don't see any reason to ally with the Qun anymore, because a choice in game is meaningful if the consequences are of the same proportions, be they good or bad.

 

It's almost as if the words of Corypheus "You're race isn't a race, it's a mistake" are shared by the new lead designer or whoever is in charge now of the Dragon Age Franchise. After what happened in this DLC, I don't see any way to have a Qunari character (not counting the PC, who isn't even a Qunari, just a boring Vashtoth) in the team. Nor do I see how non-qunari could choose between them and Tevinter. It's as if all the balance which had been established in the previous two games had been thrown out of the window just to make the Qunari random evil guys that must be stopped at all cost. That's what makes me bitter and quite unsure if I even barely like the rest of the franchise instalment(s).

[robertthebard]

Well, the one true problem with IB storyline (separated from the romance) is that you gain nothing of worth if you side with the Qun. After all, your character doesn't know he will get a staff, and to be honest, in the game I allied with them, I never used the schema to create this staff. Sure, you get some minor missions, but you would get just as much from the Charger. And comes Trespasser, while I'm happy that the consequences of your choice rear their head, the problem is that they are so outright imbalanced that I don't see any reason to ally with the Qun anymore, because a choice in game is meaningful if the consequences are of the same proportions, be they good or bad.
 
It's almost as if the words of Corypheus "You're race isn't a race, it's a mistake" are shared by the new lead designer or whoever is in charge now of the Dragon Age Franchise. After what happened in this DLC, I don't see any way to have a Qunari character (not counting the PC, who isn't even a Qunari, just a boring Vashtoth) in the team. Nor do I see how non-qunari could choose between them and Tevinter. It's as if all the balance which had been established in the previous two games had been thrown out of the window just to make the Qunari random evil guys that must be stopped at all cost. That's what makes me bitter and quite unsure if I even barely like the rest of the franchise instalment(s).

Where did they attempt to give us the impression that life under the Qun was all butterflies and rainbows? It certainly wasn't Sten, who murdered an entire family because he thought they were lying. I haven't seen anything that remotely makes them appealing, and even when we're offered the chance to "ally" with them, it's clear that they're only looking out for their own interests. Red Lyrium to Tevinter would have made short work of the Qunari is the gist of their concern, from talking with Gatt, anyway. IB tells us that they don't know how to negotiate, and the "deal" is remarkably one sided, in their favor, which is why I've never taken it. IB has turned on me, however, when I didn't get around to doing his personal quest. However, I don't see anything out of character for what we've been told about them, or shown, over the course of three games.

[Kurogane335]

They care for their people more than any other nation in Thedas. They don't have an incredibly unequal society with a very few parasitic families in places of importance. They have the one and only healthcare system in this world and they are the only ones who don't judge a person by his or her race. That there is flaws in their ideology doesn't make it monstrous. After all, the countries in the South and Tevinter are all far worse, rotten by lies and hypocrisy. And while the alliance helps the Qunari to avoid a beefed up Tevinter, is also helps the whole South, because once Tevinter would have drove away the Qunari, they would have swept the South in one giant campaign of conquest, with a major support for Corypheus. That the deal is "one sided" or that they "impose" their conditions to make it work is simply the beliefs of players who hated the Qun beforehand and stated their opinions as facts. It isn't Gatt who told the Inquisitor to bring only the Chargers, it was IB because he said the Ben-Hassrath would have been displayed otherwise. But the Inquisitor could still have done just that, to show his strength. It isn't Gatt who divide the groups, it's Bull who send his Chargers away. He could have gone with them and let the Inquisitor with Gatt, had he wanted to. And Gatt even tell that Bull gave the Charger the easiest part of the mission, until some more Venatori troops show up to finish the Charge.

 

But even then. All of what I wrote above is irrelevant to the reason why I'm bitter. The true problem is that the Developpers have probably looked at the forum, said "everybody hates the Qun" and have chosen to make it irredeemably evil. That's what comes out of IB storyline : ally with the Qun and lose everything, do not and win everything. The choices are meaningful but the consequences are so utterly imbalanced that choosing the Qun is made retrospectively a wrong choice. Not a bad choice, a wrong one. It appears now that the developers want to make the Qun another "EVIL" faction and belief, since you can't do anything with them, except destroying their whole culture and society to "integrate" them to a "better" (read, ten times worse) way of living, while they already had the Darkspawn for that absolutely evil army. That's a bad story development and it makes me think that whoever is in charge now really don't like the Qun either and would have preferred if it was never a part of the Franchise.

 

And truth been told, if it is to see it gutted while Tevinter will be put on a pedestal for treating aberrations (i.e mages) as the most wonderful thing in the world, I think that creating the Qun in the first place was also a wrong choice.

[The Baconer]

Not a bad choice, a wrong one. It appears now that the developers want to make the Qun another "EVIL" faction and belief, since you can't do anything with them, except destroying their whole culture and society to "integrate" them to a "better" (read, ten times worse) way of living,

 

I'd rather just remove their ability to pose a military threat to mainland Thedas. It would be a... harsh process, no doubt.

[SweetTeaholic]

I don't know, I prefer being able to think for myself and live in freedom than being brainwashed as accepting an ideology as if I was living in 1984 and everyone else who doesn't live by that life is a 'thing' and needs to be 'fixed'.

 

Also, the Qun is far from perfect neither. Sure, no racism and everyone treated equally; that's good. But when you think about it, the higher ups in the Qun hierarchy are just as corrupted as say those who live in the rest of Thedas. They act high and mighty but they're no different from anyone else. And that's the Qunari's downfall. If they really wanted an 'alliance', they would accept both parties ideas. But no, it's about them. They're perfect and all 'Bas' are filth. 

 

Yes, I do agree that the Qunari people themselves are portrayed as 'evil,' which isn't fair being they're just people living there lives as well. But the Qunari care only for the whole, not the one person living in the collective. 

 

Also, The Ben-Hassrath ordered Bull to bring his Chargers, otherwise he wouldn't have bought them. World of Thedas confirmed that Bull passed up on jobs because he feared they would be too dangerous and he's very protective of his men. The Inquisition spies and soldiers in disguise could have done just as well as of a job than a merc band; if not better.

 

They knew Bull was becoming more Tal Vashoth by the day; and if killing his men to gain back a 'tool' that has use in it is what the Qun demands, so be it. Even if they have to risk their people to confirm if they should drop him or not.

 

THAT'S the problem. The Qun doesn't give a ratsass about there own people unless they are useful. They are nothing but 'tools'. Iron Bull, Gatt, the dreadnought team; all of them. Hench why I said they are no better than the rest of Thedas.

[AtreiyaN7]

There's a reason I chose the Chargers over telling him to follow the Qun. Why, in the name of the Maker, would you be surprised if Bull turns on you after you make him support the Qun and let his own people die? I mean, it's kind of clear based on what you're saying that you told him to go do the proper qunari thing and save the dreadnought over saving the Chargers. You choosing to put him on the path of solidifying his belief in the Qun and the consequences of that choice are totally on you, not him. Me, I just had a nice birthday party with Bull and the Chargers in Trespasser, and I respect him and his ability to squish my enemies into pulp.

[TEWR]

Well i finished Trespasser and Bull turned me after all we've been through! He pulled the Wrex thing but Wrex had a good reason to turn on my shep.But Bull just obeys the order to turn on his friends.Seriously i lost all respect for his character.Let's say somebody is good friends with a person in a military force and one day he, she gets the order shot his, her friend.Reminds me of the third reich somehow.No way i can take him in party again...urgh.But i should have known...only loyal to the Qun...meh.Well that was the biggest suprise in the dlc, at least for me.

 

Yes how dare Bull live up to the Qun after you reinforced it upon him and told him his duty to the Qun was above his duty to himself two years ago, that friendship and companions meant nothing. How dare he be written as someone who could convincingly pull the wool over your eyes as a result because now he's not living for himself.

 

It brought nothing of worth as far as we know. There is a letter in Trespasser that says the Qunari did not order the Qunari to attack the Inquisition, nor were they going to order it. It seems like the Qunari you fight in Trespasser are just feeling a little roguish. 

 

 

There are a lot of heavy implications as far as the Qunari alliance goes, not just in how the WT missions progress (which would be nice if it was tied to the game or not. Like if you don't get it because the Chargers are alive half of Denerim is set ablaze because you didn't have the resources and though the monarch(s) survived, Denerim's crippled as a trade port now) but in the fact it exists at all.

 

Real question is if Bioware will pick up on it at all. And knowing them, they won't.

[MACharlie1]

Agreed with pretty much what every one else is saying.

 

It's your own goddamn fault. You taught him that duty should come before friends/family whatever. And now he's lived up to that lesson. Good on Bioware for making this call. And I say this as someone whose first run through of Trespasser was 1) Romancing Iron Bull, 2) Sacrificed the Chargers and 3) Had no idea of the betrayal so was caught off guard by it. 

[KaiserShep]

It's almost as if the words of Corypheus "You're race isn't a race, it's a mistake" are shared by the new lead designer or whoever is in charge now of the Dragon Age Franchise. After what happened in this DLC, I don't see any way to have a Qunari character (not counting the PC, who isn't even a Qunari, just a boring Vashtoth) in the team. Nor do I see how non-qunari could choose between them and Tevinter. It's as if all the balance which had been established in the previous two games had been thrown out of the window just to make the Qunari random evil guys that must be stopped at all cost. That's what makes me bitter and quite unsure if I even barely like the rest of the franchise instalment(s).

 

The Qun was always a path for nutjobs. I gathered as much after listening to Sten's dialogue. I mean, his own people would have killed him on sight if he didn't have his sword, branded a deserter. That's actually pretty insane. Really. Go through the gamut of his dialogue and banter, and he reveals just how hardline and unreliable the Qunari truly are as allies. Sten is amenable insofar that his goals are generally in line with the Warden's, but if the Qunari decided to take advantage of a weakened Ferelden after the Blight was defeated, Sten would have been right there with them to help, because he's a drone just like the rest of the faithful. 

 

But they aren't really alone in being the boogeyman faction. People from Tevinter tend to have worse representatives. Throughout most of the series, their examples were nothing but sneering evil wizards that I couldn't wait to kill. It wasn't until Inquisition that we got at least one person out of there that was actually decent. 

[Nixou]

Well, the one true problem with IB storyline (separated from the romance) is that you gain nothing of worth if you side with the Qun. After all, your character doesn't know he will get a staff, and to be honest, in the game I allied with them, I never used the schema to create this staff. Sure, you get some minor missions, but you would get just as much from the Charger.

 

 

Sure, but you don't know that at first. If anything, Bioware got better at this over time: in Origins, the game was rather blatant in which choice was the best: save the mages, use them to save Connor, let Witherfang speak with Zathrian, go hiking in the Frostback, save the Alienage elves.... Here, the long-term consequences remain ambiguous for a long time. Sure, you'll be shocked only the first playthrough, but it still is better handled than many similar dilemmas from previous games.

 

***

 

It certainly wasn't Sten, who murdered an entire family because he thought they were lying.

 

 

If I remember correctly, when Sten mentions the family in Origins, he tells that he did believe the farmer when he said that he hadn't found his sword. He didn't slaughter them because he thought their were lying: he slaughtered them because he freaked out.

 

***

 

 

I don't know, I prefer being able to think for myself and live in freedom than being brainwashed as accepting an ideology as if I was living in 1984 and everyone else who doesn't live by that life is a 'thing' and needs to be 'fixed'.

 

 

 

While you live today in a society where a very large chunk of both the population and the elites unapologetically wallow in a sense of inherent superiority, see foreign nations as backward barbarians who would all already be mimicking us if they weren't so stupid/hateful/enthralled-by-outdated-superstitions/genetically-inferior and where you may lead you to be harassed by the self-proclaimed Paragons of Patriotic Virtue if you dare mention in public that maybe, perhaps, it is possible that the "superior" civilization constant saber-rattling is antagonizing the "barbarians" instead of compelling them to follow the QunWestern Way of Life.

[SweetTeaholic]

 

 

While you live today in a society where a very large chunk of both the population and the elites unapologetically wallow in a sense of inherent superiority, see foreign nations as backward barbarians who would all already be mimicking us if they weren't so stupid/hateful/enthralled-by-outdated-superstitions/genetically-inferior and where you may lead you to be harassed by the self-proclaimed Paragons of Patriotic Virtue if you dare mention in public that maybe, perhaps, it is possible that the "superior" civilization constant saber-rattling is antagonizing the "barbarians" instead of compelling them to follow the QunWestern Way of Life.

 

 

True enough; but what does 'freedom to think as your own person' have to do with forcing other beliefs on others? I'm not saying that one way to live a life is better than another nor that those who live in one part of the world don't judge those who live a culture different from ours; I'm saying there's a difference between being able to think for yourself suppose to not be able to because again; Big Brother is watching.

 

That's what the Qun does. It's not their culture that's the problem, it's the fact that they force it on the unwilling and if you don't sumit, they'll break your mind either by torture or lobotomization. THAT'S WRONG! If one chooses to leave the Qun, they should be able to. If one chooses to live by it, same rules apply. 

[KaiserShep]

Wickedly Evil Plot Twist:

 

Come Next game, those who saved the Chargers will find themselves having a harder time with some parts of the quests, while those as sacrificed the Chargers will find things rather easy.

Or, Krem was an agent of Fen'Harel all along.

 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

But they aren't really alone in being the boogeyman faction. People from Tevinter tend to have worse representatives. Throughout most of the series, their examples were nothing but sneering evil wizards that I couldn't wait to kill. It wasn't until Inquisition that we got at least one person out of there that was actually decent. 

Krem didn't really have positive things to say about Tevinter though.

[KaiserShep]

Krem didn't really have positive things to say about Tevinter though.

 

As well he shouldn't, given what he had to go through, but what I meant was more a glimpse of a more positive side of its people, with whom Krem and Dorian are a couple of the few examples that exist throughout the game. There's Dorian's father, and even he was a bit questionable at some point because of his reparative therapy blood magic plan. I suppose there's also Maevaris and perhaps some others, but I tend to overlook characters that don't actually appear in the games. 

 

All things considered, I'd probably take my chances with a trip to the Imperium before going to Seheron or Par Vollen or wherever else they settled themselves. 

[QueenCrow]

You make some good points, but it should be remembered that Bull doesn't betray every player. For a great many people, Bull remains loving and devoutly loyal to the end, and is still alive and helping the Inquisitor when the credits roll. To characterize him primarily as a "masochistic fantasy experience" does him a disservice, because it doesn't take into account his equally poignant ability to fulfill the tender, joyful fantasies many crave. In one world state he may be a back-stabbing lover/friend, but in another he would die before betraying his lover/friend. There have been quite a few threads outright declaring Bull a horrible betrayer, but sadly we don't see many threads discussing his devotion and allegiance, which tends to then turn something that is indefinite into something absolute in people's minds. 

 

I do think that many people have empathy for those who were unwillingly misled - I know I certainly do. I'm not sure it's fair to imply that everyone with a differing opinion is unsympathetic, though. I think perhaps where the heated feelings come in is in cases of Bull's betrayal being blamed on everything and anything - especially the character himself - when, all emotions and theorizing aside - it was ultimately the result of a player decision. We can debate things like nebulous writing, canonical minutiae, or character (mis)development, but in the very end it boils down to the player. It just seems that in leu of accepting some responsibility, people are lashing out in their dissatisfaction and disappointment, and the character of Bull itself is taking an unwarranted beating, in my opinion. Again, I completely understand the upset. I feel you. It's a gutting, crap ending. But I also think that it is an ending that makes sense based on Bull's story. And it's only one half of the story.

 

Good morning, milkeye.  First, thank you for offering your thoughts on the Bull situation.  Considerate voices like yours are a productive addition to the mix in my opinion.  And your post has the added virtue of being another source that might encourage people who want a loving friendship with Iron Bull to be part of their game experience.  I think the word is getting out and players will soon know which selection to make to activate the loyal friendship programming that Bioware has provided for the character.

 

One clarification I'd like to make regarding my comments is that when I referred to the Iron Bull character as an opportunity for a masochistic experience, I meant that in terms of a literary reference to Leopold Von Sacher-Masoch (from whose name the terms masochism and masochist are derived).  The bdsm element and even the public mockery ending is all in keeping with Sacher-Masoch's writing and I didn't intend for the use of the term to carry a negative connotation in any form.  (See Venus in Furs if interested further)

 

Beyond that, I think I've said everything that I had to say about Iron Bull and anything else would just be repeating myself.  So I'll spare you, and instead of being redundant I'll head to Oktoberfest, toast the health of Dragon Age junkies all over the world.  Then I'll move forward toward my bull fight and have fun with it.

 

Please have a wonderful weekend, milkeye, and everyone.  And good gaming!

 

Prost!

[Illegitimus]

 

But even then. All of what I wrote above is irrelevant to the reason why I'm bitter. 

 

 

No, it isn't.  If you didn't like the Qunari despite their being a totalitarian dictatorship that the Stalinists only wished they could have achieved, there would be no reason to be upset about them being as unalterably opposed to the rest of the world as they always say they are.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As well he shouldn't, given what he had to go through, but what I meant was more a glimpse of a more positive side of its people, with whom Krem and Dorian are a couple of the few examples that exist throughout the game. There's Dorian's father, and even he was a bit questionable at some point because of his reparative therapy blood magic plan. I suppose there's also Maevaris and perhaps some others, but I tend to overlook characters that don't actually appear in the games. 

 

All things considered, I'd probably take my chances with a trip to the Imperium before going to Seheron or Par Vollen or wherever else they settled themselves. 

I don't consider Dorian an example of a decent person from Tevinter. Him having no issue with slavery cancels that for me.

Of the three, I'd rather go to Seheron actually if we are operating by the number of decent people, since between the citizens and the Fog Warriors I think Seheron wins out. Who knows, maybe since one of the plots seems to be the war between Qunari and Tevinter Seheron will be one of the places we go. 

[Kurogane335]

No, it isn't.  If you didn't like the Qunari despite their being a totalitarian dictatorship that the Stalinists only wished they could have achieved, there would be no reason to be upset about them being as unalterably opposed to the rest of the world as they always say they are.

You stating that they are a Stalinist dream shows that :

1 : You have no idea of what Stalinism was

2 : You have no idea of the Qun is

3 : You should learn about the Phalanstère and Fourier ideas, because the Qun is much more a duty-oriented Phanlanstère' society than anything resembling Marxism or Communism. Except that Passion has been replaced by Order

 

Here is an explanation of Fourier idea :

"Fourier insists that this transformation requires a complete change in the social institutions: distribution of the social product according to need [i.e, no more money, because what is created is granted to those in need, like in the Qun], assignment of functions according to individual faculties and inclinations [once more, like in the Qun, if obviously less rigid], constant mutation of functions [while it seems quite restricted to the branches, even an Arishok can lose his rank in the Qun, and there is other examples of that, so I guess it somehow still work, if only a little], short work periods, and so on. But the possibility of "attractive labor" (travail attrayant) derives above all from the release of libidinal forces . Fourier assumes the existence of an attraction industrielle which makes for pleasurable co-operation. It is based on the attraction passionnée in the nature of man , which persists despite the opposition of reason, duty, prejudice. This attraction passionnée tends toward three principal objectives: the creation of "luxury, or the pleasure of the five senses"; the formation of libidinal groups (of friendship and love); and the establishment of a harmonious order, organizing these groups for work in accordance with the development of the individual "passions" (internal and external "play" of faculties)"

 

It is the foundations which are different between Fourier's utopia and the Qun, I'll give you that. But there is no mention of classes warfare (in fact, classes don't exist in the Qun) or proletariat or anything coming from Marxism and its corruption (i.e, Stalinism and Maoism) in what we know of the Qun doctrines.

 

And you haven't understood why I'm bitter. I'm not bitter because some people on the forums hate the Qun with a passion which I simply can't comprehend and are blind to ity being a better society than anything in the world of Thedas, if only ebcause it has shred any hypocrisy (yes, he want to convert everyone to its culture, but so does the people wanting to destroy it. If you destroy the Qun, then you annihilate a whole culture, and the society going with that. You'll have to undergo ethnic cleansing, because Tal-Vashoth are but an incredibly tiny minority, and all in all, all those talks about the Qunari being drones... deny them humanity. The very people clamouring that the Qun is atrocious because it sees foreigners as things considers the Qunari as things and not people. It should mean something, that hypocrisy).

 

Yes, I'm not bitter because of it, because Dragon Age is a game franchise, and everyone has the very right to like anything they want in this. I don't think that because someone like the Imperium then he must be member of some cabal who think that only the so-called elites of our western civilization are great and that the rest is a bunch of rabble. Perhaps he just like the roman theme, and hey, if Tevinters weren't worshiping cursed mages left and right, the Roman themes of the Imperium would have made me heel over head for it since a vary long time.

 

I'm bitter because someone at Bioware suddenly decided to throw out any kind of pretence that we could one day see the Qunari side of the conflicts. Because that's what DA:I and Trespasser are. The nails in the coffin of any future Qunari characters and side-stories (or even main story). Because now, no matter what could happen, no player would want a Qunari in his team. At beast, they'll accept true Vashoth and Tal-Vashoth. Which means that those guys, who have nothing of worth to bring for any kind of story, will be there as a bone to the players. An aesthetic look, if you will. It will be as if in Mass Effect, instead of having Krogans, we had got beings that looks like Krogans, but think and act like humans, or Asari, or Turian, nothing but look.

 

That is why I'm bitter : Bioware created this incredibly interesting and compelling society and culture, and because most of the peoples on the forums hated it for what I consider misguided reasons based on half-knowledge and approximations of what the totalitarian regimes of the XXth Century, Bioware decided to throw them to the fire. I hope I'm wrong, but I highly doubt it.

 

I've said it elsewhere, but if the Qunari are the enemies in the next game, and that we can only side with Tevinter, I won't bother to buy the game, nor any other which could follow. Because the only thing interesting me more than the Grey Warden will have been utterly destroyed to please forums-goers.

[Ellana's Song]

Imo, he died honorably and deserves all the respect.  But then I don't take most things at face value so I can appreciate his and the Chargers' sacrifices.

[Illegitimus]

 

 

It is the foundations which are different between Fourier's utopia and the Qun, I'll give you that. But there is no mention of classes warfare (in fact, classes don't exist in the Qun) or proletariat or anything coming from Marxism and its corruption (i.e, Stalinism and Maoism) in what we know of the Qun doctrines.

 

 

...I'm not getting your point.  Classes not existing in the Qun is exactly one of the things that makes it the totalitarianism that the Stalinists wished they could have created.  Or something close at least.  They wanted a classless culture that had moved beyond concepts of "property" and "self-determination" more or less as the Qunari have.  And they also wanted secret police who could effectively remove ideological deviance and it all to be somehow economically vigorous and technologically progressive...just like Qunari in fact are. I'm not saying the Qunari are Stalinists.  I'm saying they succeed at the things that the Stalinists wanted but failed to achieve.

[TEWR]

 

But they aren't really alone in being the boogeyman faction. People from Tevinter tend to have worse representatives. Throughout most of the series, their examples were nothing but sneering evil wizards that I couldn't wait to kill. It wasn't until Inquisition that we got at least one person out of there that was actually decent. 

 

Only one? We've had more people from Tevinter that were decent. Fenris, Dorian, Krem, Felix, even Alexius to a degree.

[KaiserShep]

I forgot about Felix, though Alexius is a hard case since he was a fairly good illustration of why Thedas fears mages.

As for Fenris, it's hard to count any of the slaves from Tevinter.

[Gold Dragon]

How would that work, exactly? Are you planning on fighting a band of mercs, and one way it's them? Either way, a competent band of mercs is a competent band of mercs. IB won't make them invincible, if he could, it would be almost impossible to beat him if he turns on you. It's not.

 

Questlines that are not available if Bull is Alive.

A Schism develops within the Qun.

 

Methods of doing this are limited only by the Devs imagination.