657 réponses à ce sujet

[milkeye]

Good morning, milkeye.  First, thank you for offering your thoughts on the Bull situation.  Considerate voices like yours are a productive addition to the mix in my opinion.  And your post has the added virtue of being another source that might encourage people who want a loving friendship with Iron Bull to be part of their game experience.  I think the word is getting out and players will soon know which selection to make to activate the loyal friendship programming that Bioware has provided for the character.

 

One clarification I'd like to make regarding my comments is that when I referred to the Iron Bull character as an opportunity for a masochistic experience, I meant that in terms of a literary reference to Leopold Von Sacher-Masoch (from whose name the terms masochism and masochist are derived).  The bdsm element and even the public mockery ending is all in keeping with Sacher-Masoch's writing and I didn't intend for the use of the term to carry a negative connotation in any form.  (See Venus in Furs if interested further)

 

Beyond that, I think I've said everything that I had to say about Iron Bull and anything else would just be repeating myself.  So I'll spare you, and instead of being redundant I'll head to Oktoberfest, toast the health of Dragon Age junkies all over the world.  Then I'll move forward toward my bull fight and have fun with it.

 

Please have a wonderful weekend, milkeye, and everyone.  And good gaming!

 

Prost!

 

 

Thank you for replying to my post, Lindraen. One doesn't always wade into the BSN waters expecting civility, so when it occurs it's rather a pleasant surprise. Good start to the evening.

 

I do hope that you're right in your prediction that some informed future players will make their decision according to the outcome they desire.  While it removes the surprise element, at least it might save others from having the same feelings seen here and in other threads, if they're opposed to them.  It also might prevent Bull from forever dwelling solely in the Giant Rat Bastard pile and allow him to be seen as the wonderfully intriguing, dualistic character he is.

 

Thanks also for clarifying what you meant with regards to the 'masochistic fantasy' label. I had taken it as reference to the players' potential feelings of betrayal and disappointment with Bull, rather than the more literal reference to Bull's...romantic proclivities and potential epilogue (hey - IRONically have a 1st ed ViF here on the shelf next to the Marquis).  The phrase itself wasn't an issue for me so much as the perceived argument behind it, i.e., Bull is only good for those players who like having their hearts ripped out and who enjoy emotional carnage.  

 

And so while I don't think we'll agree on the issues surrounding Bull's potential 'betrayal', we can both at least agree that Oktoberfest is the best thing to come out of Bavaria since Ludwig the Mad. Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm not bitter because of it, because Dragon Age is a game franchise, and everyone has the very right to like anything they want in this. I don't think that because someone like the Imperium then he must be member of some cabal who think that only the so-called elites of our western civilization are great and that the rest is a bunch of rabble. Perhaps he just like the roman theme, and hey, if Tevinters weren't worshiping cursed mages left and right, the Roman themes of the Imperium would have made me heel over head for it since a vary long time.

 

I'm bitter because someone at Bioware suddenly decided to throw out any kind of pretence that we could one day see the Qunari side of the conflicts. Because that's what DA:I and Trespasser are. The nails in the coffin of any future Qunari characters and side-stories (or even main story). Because now, no matter what could happen, no player would want a Qunari in his team. At beast, they'll accept true Vashoth and Tal-Vashoth. Which means that those guys, who have nothing of worth to bring for any kind of story, will be there as a bone to the players. An aesthetic look, if you will. It will be as if in Mass Effect, instead of having Krogans, we had got beings that looks like Krogans, but think and act like humans, or Asari, or Turian, nothing but look.

 

That is why I'm bitter : Bioware created this incredibly interesting and compelling society and culture, and because most of the peoples on the forums hated it for what I consider misguided reasons based on half-knowledge and approximations of what the totalitarian regimes of the XXth Century, Bioware decided to throw them to the fire. I hope I'm wrong, but I highly doubt it.

 

I've said it elsewhere, but if the Qunari are the enemies in the next game, and that we can only side with Tevinter, I won't bother to buy the game, nor any other which could follow. Because the only thing interesting me more than the Grey Warden will have been utterly destroyed to please forums-goers.

 

 

You know, I just have to say this. I've read quite a few of your posts now when this subject (IB) and the greater subject of the Qunari have come up. You seem to often be the only dissenting voice in a multi-page thread when the issue of said race and their society/beliefs are discussed. In the face of overwhelming majority opinion, you continue to debate from your point of view even if it's considered undefendable. And you know what? If nothing else, you are f***ing passionate about what you post, passionate about the Qunari. Your posts are thoughtful when they could be vague, restrained when they could be all caps and exclamation points. It is obvious that you care quite a lot about this part of the Dragon Age mythos, and have taken care in learning about it when most would not bother. I honestly respect that. I may find myself at odds with some of the points you make in your posts, but I always enjoy reading them.

 

And even though I personally find the Qun doctrine and the Qunari way of life oppressive and inexorable, I totally get why you're bitter. It's a shame that the one Qunari character we as players finally get to know on a personal level ends up with the potential to turn evil lemming, despite its arguable inevitability. With that act - and without any post-dialogue for reflection or explanation -  the writers sealed the lid on the one-dimensional Qunari crypt.  Even though one could take heart in the fact that Iron Bull can and does avoid that end in half the world states, it seems as though popular sentiment holds his death as truth regardless, thus severing future potential for Qunari companions/protagonists. I really would love to see what Par Vollen is like - I mean, have you seen the Spoils bed? They have got to have some serious architectural frosting over there - without the conceit of prisoner/invader. Perhaps we will only "know" Vashoth and Tal-Vashoth in DA4, perhaps the Qunari will be pure pantomime, I don't know. We'll just have to see in which direction the writers choose to go, I'm afraid. I'm hopeful.

 

 

 

 

Imo, he died honorably and deserves all the respect.  But then I don't take most things at face value so I can appreciate his and the Chargers' sacrifices.

 

 

Simple and nice.

[Kurogane335]

You know, I just have to say this. I've read quite a few of your posts now when this subject (IB) and the greater subject of the Qunari have come up. You seem to often be the only dissenting voice in a multi-page thread when the issue of said race and their society/beliefs are discussed. In the face of overwhelming majority opinion, you continue to debate from your point of view even if it's considered undefendable. And you know what? If nothing else, you are f***ing passionate about what you post, passionate about the Qunari. Your posts are thoughtful when they could be vague, restrained when they could be all caps and exclamation points. It is obvious that you care quite a lot about this part of the Dragon Age mythos, and have taken care in learning about it when most would not bother. I honestly respect that. I may find myself at odds with some of the points you make in your posts, but I always enjoy reading them.

 

And even though I personally find the Qun doctrine and the Qunari way of life oppressive and inexorable, I totally get why you're bitter. It's a shame that the one Qunari character we as players finally get to know on a personal level ends up with the potential to turn evil lemming, despite its arguable inevitability. With that act - and without any post-dialogue for reflection or explanation -  the writers sealed the lid on the one-dimensional Qunari crypt.  Even though one could take heart in the fact that Iron Bull can and does avoid that end in half the world states, it seems as though popular sentiment holds his death as truth regardless, thus severing future potential for Qunari companions/protagonists. I really would love to see what Par Vollen is like - I mean, have you seen the Spoils bed? They have got to have some serious architectural frosting over there - without the conceit of prisoner/invader. Perhaps we will only "know" Vashoth and Tal-Vashoth in DA4, perhaps the Qunari will be pure pantomime, I don't know. We'll just have to see in which direction the writers choose to go, I'm afraid. I'm hopeful.

 

First of all, thank you for your consideration. It is always a pleasure to read your own messages (like what, 99% of the forum goers that I've seen so far, perhaps even the 100% of them ).

 

I just want to add to what you said about Bull that his "betrayal" makes me love him more, instead of less, because he thus becomes a more realistic and honest character. He adheres to a set of morals, and follow them to the very end. If you've made if a Tal-Vashoth, he accepts it, even when the Viddasala practically offer him a chance for redemption and return to the Qun, he dismisses her, because he has made a choice and he must stand for it. And it is the same thing if the player sided with Qun. I think that's why Cole actually feel no pain when Iron Bull turn on you : why should Hissrad feel pain in accomplishing his duty. A qunari would not feel as such, he would probably feel at ease. He made a choice, he didn't opposed the Inquisitor who told him to let the Chargers die, and now he must go to the very end of that road.

 

It makes for a better character than one who would shed his morals, values and belief just because he suddenly interact with the player character, IMHO.

[Nixou]

Classes not existing in the Qun is exactly one of the things that makes it the totalitarianism that the Stalinists wished they could have created.

 

 

Urg...

First things first: the Stalinists never intended to create a classless society. Marx had this pipe dream about a temporary dictatorship dismantling old hierarchies to allow a worldwide hippie commune to emerge, but Lenin's agenda was simply to replace the decadent czarist nobility with a benevolent aristocracy of ideologically homogenous intellectuals, and Stalin himself decided that "benevolent" was superfluous.

Now, one could argue that the Tamassrans are the Qunari Nomenklatura (truth to be told, Rasaan looked eerily like a political commissar in the comics), but given that the Qunari society has existed for centuries, even if one assumed that it had a totalitarian phase, it is most certainly long gone by the time the Dragon Age begins as no totalitarian regimes ever survive for more than a few decades: sometimes they are merely replaced by a looser form of authoritarianism, but they never endure under their harshest form for very long.

[VorexRyder]

First of all, thank you for your consideration. It is always a pleasure to read your own messages (like what, 99% of the forum goers that I've seen so far, perhaps even the 100% of them ).

 

I just want to add to what you said about Bull that his "betrayal" makes me love him more, instead of less, because he thus becomes a more realistic and honest character. He adheres to a set of morals, and follow them to the very end. If you've made if a Tal-Vashoth, he accepts it, even when the Viddasala practically offer him a chance for redemption and return to the Qun, he dismisses her, because he has made a choice and he must stand for it. And it is the same thing if the player sided with Qun. I think that's why Cole actually feel no pain when Iron Bull turn on you : why should Hissrad feel pain in accomplishing his duty. A qunari would not feel as such, he would probably feel at ease. He made a choice, he didn't opposed the Inquisitor who told him to let the Chargers die, and now he must go to the very end of that road.

 

It makes for a better character than one who would shed his morals, values and belief just because he suddenly interact with the player character, IMHO.

Except that Southern Thedas is not at war with the Qunari after the simultaneous assassination attempt on the whole of their leadership, which means the Viddasala's operation was not sanctioned by the Ariqun. Otherwise, now that the Qunari have lost their access to the Eluvian network, you damn best believe that such an attack would have invited military retaliation and/or heavy sanctions, and Tevinter would gleefully offer their support and some manner of offiicial alliance. Especially so soon after Kirkwall.

 

Which means that when Hissrad said "Nothing personal, bas." he was lying. Losing the Chargers broke him, and he blames you for it as much as he blames himself, which is why he either joined a rogue Ben-Hassrath faction or didn't bother to make sure that it was official. Hissrad wanted revenge, he wanted to either die or kill you.

[Kurogane335]

Honestly, I don't think for a second that the Viddasala operation weren't sanctioned at some point in time. The Qunari may have disavowed her for several reasons (what she did to the Saarebas, probably) at the beginning they were supporting her and granted her means to achieve it. And had it succeeded, they would have probably tried to capitalize on it, with them sending troops. That plan is stupid, I'll give you that, but it is clearly the way the game want to present their actions.

[The Baconer]

Except that Southern Thedas is not at war with the Qunari after the simultaneous assassination attempt on the whole of their leadership, which means the Viddasala's operation was not sanctioned by the Ariqun. Otherwise, now that the Qunari have lost their access to the Eluvian network, you damn best believe that such an attack would have invited military retaliation and/or heavy sanctions, and Tevinter would gleefully offer their support and some manner of offiicial alliance. Especially so soon after Kirkwall.

 

Orlais is barely recovering from a disastrous civil war, the mages and Templars are relatively spent after their own conflict, Ferelden couldn't even summon the strength to police its own lands, and then on top of it all are the deaths caused by Corypheus and the Breach.

 

The Qunari have held their own against the entirety of Thedas before, and they were sheltered from this most recent series of calamities. For the sake of their own countries, people would rather pretend to believe the Qunari's BS than go to war with the strongest power in Thedas by far.

[leaguer of one]

Honestly, I don't think for a second that the Viddasala operation weren't sanctioned at some point in time. The Qunari may have disavowed her for several reasons (what she did to the Saarebas, probably) at the beginning they were supporting her and granted her means to achieve it. And had it succeeded, they would have probably tried to capitalize on it, with them sending troops. That plan is stupid, I'll give you that, but it is clearly the way the game want to present their actions.

You do understand the the ben-hasserath are allowed to be flexible and do things out side the qun to get the job done.

 

Saying that the Viddasala was not sanction because the she uses saarabas is no different then say Iron bull can't be a qunari spy because he sleeps with random people.

[Illegitimus]

 

Urg...

First things first: the Stalinists never intended to create a classless society. Marx had this pipe dream about a temporary dictatorship dismantling old hierarchies to allow a worldwide hippie commune to emerge, but Lenin's agenda was simply to replace the decadent czarist nobility with a benevolent aristocracy of ideologically homogenous intellectuals, and Stalin himself decided that "benevolent" was superfluous.

Now, one could argue that the Tamassrans are the Qunari Nomenklatura (truth to be told, Rasaan looked eerily like a political commissar in the comics), but given that the Qunari society has existed for centuries, even if one assumed that it had a totalitarian phase, it is most certainly long gone by the time the Dragon Age begins as no totalitarian regimes ever survive for more than a few decades: sometimes they are merely replaced by a looser form of authoritarianism, but they never endure under their harshest form for very long.

 

Except of course in works of fiction where a governmental system can be so micromanaging that it can forbid romantic relationships because they get in the way of the breeding program...and yet still somehow manage to last for centuries.  Seriously the Qunari have people reporting themselves for their own discontent in order to be reprogrammed...allegedly by non-magical means.  Iron Bull told us about it.  And Sten told us about how everyone is slotted into assigned roles in a system more rigid and centrally planned than any real life civilization...ever.  And they LIKE IT!

[robertthebard]

Except of course in works of fiction where a governmental system can be so micromanaging that it can forbid romantic relationships because they get in the way of the breeding program...and yet still somehow manage to last for centuries.  Seriously the Qunari have people reporting themselves for their own discontent in order to be reprogrammed...allegedly by non-magical means.  Iron Bull told us about it.  And Sten told us about how everyone is slotted into assigned roles in a system more rigid and centrally planned than any real life civilization...ever.  And they LIKE IT!

That last bit is a contradiction of known lore, though, isn't it. Evidently, they don't all like it, because there's Tal Vashoth.

[leaguer of one]

Except of course in works of fiction where a governmental system can be so micromanaging that it can forbid romantic relationships because they get in the way of the breeding program...and yet still somehow manage to last for centuries.  Seriously the Qunari have people reporting themselves for their own discontent in order to be reprogrammed...allegedly by non-magical means.  Iron Bull told us about it.  And Sten told us about how everyone is slotted into assigned roles in a system more rigid and centrally planned than any real life civilization...ever.  And they LIKE IT!

1. Ben hasserth are every were and find out about what people do is secret.

 

2.They were born into that culture and know nothing else. that's why they accept it.

[BansheeOwnage]

This^^. So much. Whatever the player decides has no bearing on who that person is. It's a video game. This holier-than-thou attitude some people get over a decision they made in a video game makes no sense to me. Remember the endings for ME3? Some people picked their favorite color and if you picked something different, it somehow made you a horrible person. All choices are valid. It just depends on what kind of character you want to play. (Collective you, btw. Not trying to single anyone out)

Actually, I happen to think a particular choice in the ME3 ending is absolutely morally repugnant (won't bother saying which one because don't want to derail the thread). However, I don't necessarily think the people who made it are, just that they didn't think it through enough to realize that.

 

Anyway, The Iron Bull.

[Althaz]

"I can't respect Bull after I taught him that the Qun should come before friendship and love and he turned that lesson on my special snowflake self."

 

*plays world's smallest violin*

 

While generally I agree that Bull was acting in-character (for those scumbags that killed the chargers), those that disagree didn't think they were teaching Bull that lesson. They probably thought something else, like:

a) They were doing the best thing for Bull - saving the maximum amount of his people and allowing his old people to work with his new people (the Inquisition).

They were trying to minimise the loss of life the Qun and the Chargers were both allies of the Inquisition, Inky tells Bull to do the best thing for the inquisition.

 

There's plenty of other things that might have resulted in the same outcome - but without more nuanced follow-up conversations, there's no way for the Inquisitor to make their point. That's disappointing, but at the time it makes sense - Bull recommits himself to the Qun and TBH the Inquisitor is probably just relieved that Bull is ok after sacrificing what is basically his family for the Inquisition.

[Heimdall]

That last bit is a contradiction of known lore, though, isn't it. Evidently, they don't all like it, because there's Tal Vashoth.

Tal Vashoth are used to reinforce it though, "If you don't follow the Qun, you'll become a murderous crazy person howling at the moon",  that's why Bull was so scared of turning Tal Vashoth, its why he turned himself in to be reeducated in the past.

[Ryzaki]

While generally I agree that Bull was acting in-character (for those scumbags that killed the chargers), those that disagree didn't think they were teaching Bull that lesson. They probably thought something else, like:

a) They were doing the best thing for Bull - saving the maximum amount of his people and allowing his old people to work with his new people (the Inquisition).

They were trying to minimise the loss of life the Qun and the Chargers were both allies of the Inquisition, Inky tells Bull to do the best thing for the inquisition.

 

There's plenty of other things that might have resulted in the same outcome - but without more nuanced follow-up conversations, there's no way for the Inquisitor to make their point. That's disappointing, but at the time it makes sense - Bull recommits himself to the Qun and TBH the Inquisitor is probably just relieved that Bull is ok after sacrificing what is basically his family for the Inquisition.

I wouldn't call the players that let the chargers die scumbags. That said the complaining from some players that Bull turned on them for letting the chargers die is yawn inducing.

 

Also the believing it was the best thing for Bull baffles me. The entire game has him obviously waffling about the Qun with him not being all ra ra Qun. Sacrificing the Chargers (his ragtag group of misfits that he is obviously very happy and joyful to be with) for the Qunari (a very stringent everything has it's order and it's place is just very (???) to me.

 

Bull keeps going all throughout the game "yeah the Qunari's great...I don't want them here but they're great." Riiiiight.

[Arvaarad]

Which means that when Hissrad said "Nothing personal, bas." he was lying. Losing the Chargers broke him, and he blames you for it as much as he blames himself, which is why he either joined a rogue Ben-Hassrath faction or didn't bother to make sure that it was official. Hissrad wanted revenge, he wanted to either die or kill you.

 

Cole: "I didn't feel it. There wasn't any pain."

 

Hissrad doesn't have a drive for revenge, only Bull would have that. Besides, it wouldn't make any sense for him to take revenge if the Chargers are still alive (i.e. if you never did his quest).

 

What happens in Trespasser is Hissrad doing his job. Likely he's worked with this Viddasala's faction since before Inquisition. His job was to get close to the Inquisitor, and her task was also tied to dealing with the Inquisitor after Corypheus was dead. Their association likely goes way back.

 

The Viddasala's faction was probably 100% legit Qun-approved back when he started working with them. Regardless of that, when it comes to riskier magical things, I get the feeling that the Qun follows a DADT policy. They'll only step in if they receive information they can't ignore, or if it starts going sideways. Like any large organization or government, they don't have time to have their eyes directly on every agent. There's some level of trust that people will use their best judgment to follow the Qun.

 

Especially the Ben-Hassrath faction, which interacts with bas a lot, and likely has to improvise a lot. They don't have time to get approval for every action they take. If their experiment works, the triumvirate will take advantage of it, of course. If it fails, oops, what can you do but disavow it and move on? Every large organization has that issue; perfect oversight is inefficient. It's why large companies seem to have more scandals than smaller ones, eventually by sheer bad luck one of your employees will do something you have to distance yourself from.

[Dai Grepher]

@Xcorpyo I'm sure Vivienne knows what she's doing. She would never take down Tevinter while the Qunari were still a threat. She would likely support Tevinter in crushing the Qunari first, and then crush Tevinter after that.

 

@leaguer of one Then why didn't they take the way of blades, as Viddasala stated would be the case? Because she was making stuff up. The Qunari didn't go to war. You are just being factually incorrect.
 

@robertthebard You're the one with poor reading comprehension, not me. I wrote that I have no problem with Iron Bull siding with the Qun and attacking the Inquisitor. I wanted this to happen. My problem is the storyline of Viddasala giving the order and Hissrad blindly obeying it when he knew for a fact that Viddasala was basically Tal-Vashoth.

 

@TobiTobsen It could be plausible deniability, or a lie. But then why would Viddasala have it? If it was a deception, then why didn't she just allow the letter to reach the Inquisition and deceive them? No. She intercepted the letter, read it, and knew Par Vollen had discovered her plot. She knew she was on her way to re-education or worse. That's why she angrily ripped it and crumpled it up. Par Vollen didn't give Viddasala the letter. That was sent to the Inquisition. She intercepted it as it was being returned to the Inquisition with a reply from Par Vollen. If the operation was sanctioned, why would she care about the letter? Why would it anger her?

 

@Hazegurl Not necessarily. Hissrad would have been most valuable to the Qun had he remained a spy. If the Inquisition keeps him, great. If it imprisons him, it gives the Qunari leverage to use against the Inquisitor. They could say that they wrongly imprisoned an agent who stood by the Inquisitor through all of it as they cut down so many Tal-Vashoth, and that imprisoning him violates the alliance and risks nullifying the peace treaty with the south. I think Viddasala calling on Hissrad (who was not her subordinate according to the chain of command) proves that she was acting outside the Qun, and she didn't care about violating it further at that point.

 

@Illyria Viddasala was moderately ranked. She was to her division what a Sten is to his company. She was not Hissrad's superior officer. She had no authority over him. She had no power to issue orders to him. He was not one of her agents. All her agents were indeed Ben-Hassrath, but not all Ben-Hassrath answer to her. She controls one of three divisions. Hers was "dangerous purpose". Hissrad's was "dangerous questions". Two separate divisions. And if he had been one of her agents, then why didn't she call on him earlier? I contest that it's because she did not care about Par Vollen anymore after she intercepted their reply letter to Josephine in which they made it clear she was acting without authority. She knew she would be punished for her actions, and so she figured she would act outside the Qun in pulling Hissrad into her scheme. It was a desperate play, one Hissrad should have been smart enough to see and avoid.

 

There is irrefutable proof that she acted outside the Qun. She fed saarebas lyrium. She sent agents to kill a loyal Qunari (Hissrad). Par Vollen sent a letter to the Inquisition confirming that she was acting without sanction, and Viddasala intercepted and tried to destroy this letter. She can also try to give orders to a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull, which indicates that she disregarded the Qun. Also, she does not call on Bull until after she intercepts and reads the letter from Par Vollen. Which shows that calling on Bull at all is against the Qun, but by that point she was already discovered to have violated the Qun by Par Vollen, so it didn't matter to her at that point. She also didn't know that the Inquisition was not working with Solas. She thought it was, and she was wrong. Which means she did not have access to Hissrad's intel. She was clearly acting on her own, and Par Vollen knew nothing of her activities.

 

The antaam was not ready to sweep the south. Nothing in the game even implies this. Viddasala even claims that the Qunari will now take the way of blades and wage war on the south, yet that doesn't happen. Clearly, Viddasala was lying the whole time.

 

You don't even have to bow to the facts if you don't want to. But I posted facts. As for Weekes, I still have not been given a direct quote from him about any of this.

 

Bull returns for debriefing, not reeducation.

 

@Sui Causa The Qunari in the game are not in full armor. Even the Shock Troopers aren't in full armor. That is just a light armor to identify their role. And even if it were, Viddasala could have been the one supplying the armor and telling them it was time to invade. Again, all without sanction from Par Vollen.

 

The dead Qunari we see was fighting with elven spirits, if you'll recall correctly. Even if it was heavy armor, it could have been because of the fight with the spirits.

 

I know the alliance will eventually end and the Qunari will attack the south, but I'm just pointing out that this was not the case in Trespasser. They were still allies in this DLC.

 

@Marshal Moriarty I don't have a problem with Hissrad siding with the Qun. My problem is that he sided with a Tal-Vashoth who had abandoned the Qun. Also, I only trusted him to be a true Qunari. That's another problem here. Why can't we choose to imprison Bull after discovering a possible Qunari plot? It makes no sense, and it is against player choice.

 

@Arvaarad More than likely, those 100 Qunari will never know that they were just one dialogue choice away from death. So they won't think any more highly of the bas than usual.

 

@Kurogane335 I think if the game wanted to present that, they would not have used Viddasala. They would have used the Ariqun instead, since that title oversees all branches of the Ben-Hassrath, including Hissrad's.

 

@leaguer of one No she isn't. And using saarebas was never the issue. The issue was in feeding saarebas lyrium, which is a violation of the Qun. It is the equivalent of Sten abandoning his sword, or a woman becoming a soldier, or Iron Bull sounding the retreat.

 

No, it is Hissrad's job to sleep with random people. It is Viddasala's job to keep saarebas away from lyrium.

 

@Arvaarad If that were true, why didn't she activate Hissrad sooner? And why would she think the Inquisition was working with Solas?

[Illyria]

@Illyria Viddasala was moderately ranked. She was to her division what a Sten is to his company. She was not Hissrad's superior officer. She had no authority over him. She had no power to issue orders to him. He was not one of her agents. All her agents were indeed Ben-Hassrath, but not all Ben-Hassrath answer to her. She controls one of three divisions. Hers was "dangerous purpose". Hissrad's was "dangerous questions". Two separate divisions. And if he had been one of her agents, then why didn't she call on him earlier? I contest that it's because she did not care about Par Vollen anymore after she intercepted their reply letter to Josephine in which they made it clear she was acting without authority. She knew she would be punished for her actions, and so she figured she would act outside the Qun in pulling Hissrad into her scheme. It was a desperate play, one Hissrad should have been smart enough to see and avoid.

 

There is irrefutable proof that she acted outside the Qun. She fed saarebas lyrium. She sent agents to kill a loyal Qunari (Hissrad). Par Vollen sent a letter to the Inquisition confirming that she was acting without sanction, and Viddasala intercepted and tried to destroy this letter. She can also try to give orders to a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull, which indicates that she disregarded the Qun. Also, she does not call on Bull until after she intercepts and reads the letter from Par Vollen. Which shows that calling on Bull at all is against the Qun, but by that point she was already discovered to have violated the Qun by Par Vollen, so it didn't matter to her at that point. She also didn't know that the Inquisition was not working with Solas. She thought it was, and she was wrong. Which means she did not have access to Hissrad's intel. She was clearly acting on her own, and Par Vollen knew nothing of her activities.

 

The antaam was not ready to sweep the south. Nothing in the game even implies this. Viddasala even claims that the Qunari will now take the way of blades and wage war on the south, yet that doesn't happen. Clearly, Viddasala was lying the whole time.

 

You don't even have to bow to the facts if you don't want to. But I posted facts. As for Weekes, I still have not been given a direct quote from him about any of this.

 

Bull returns for debriefing, not reeducation.

 

And the moon is inhabited by puppies and rainbows taste of marshmallows!

 

See, I can do it too.

 

HOW. DO. YOU. KNOW. THIS?

 

You don't.  You were given the same facts as me and came to one conclusion, and I came to another, but you're acting like your conclusions are the only conclusions to be had, and you're ignoring all evidence that goes against what you say.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

 

 

@leaguer of one No she isn't. And using saarebas was never the issue. The issue was in feeding saarebas lyrium, which is a violation of the Qun. It is the equivalent of Sten abandoning his sword, or a woman becoming a soldier, or Iron Bull sounding the retreat.

 

No, it is Hissrad's job to sleep with random people. It is Viddasala's job to keep saarebas away from lyrium.

 

That does not matter. it's the same case as what bull does when he sleeps with random people. The ben-hasserth are allowed to bend and break the rules of the qun in order to  serve the qun  and long as the job gets done. Hissrad job is not to sleep with people, that's a tamassern's job. His job is to be a spy and he does not need to sleep with random people to do that job nor drink till he passes out.

[robertthebard]

Tal Vashoth are used to reinforce it though, "If you don't follow the Qun, you'll become a murderous crazy person howling at the moon",  that's why Bull was so scared of turning Tal Vashoth, its why he turned himself in to be reeducated in the past.

Yes, and if you're gay, use the Lord's name in vain, or are an adulterer, you're going to Hell, to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. It's the same principle across the board; scare tactics to keep the masses in line, whether one believes them to be valid or not. Despite the claims, there are people that left the Qun and became Tal Vashoth w/out howling at the moon, we met at least one in DA II.

[Kevinc62]

I saw it coming. It's the Qun, what do you expect? He introduces himself as a spy and a liar. Because of that, you actually let your guard down a bit, but he's still a spy and a liar, and a very good one. His betrayal was in-character, just as him sticking with you if you saved the Chargers is in-character.

 

This. A shame since I really liked by the end. what can you do...

[leaguer of one]

Yes, and if you're gay, use the Lord's name in vain, or are an adulterer, you're going to Hell, to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. It's the same principle across the board; scare tactics to keep the masses in line, whether one believes them to be valid or not. Despite the claims, there are people that left the Qun and became Tal Vashoth w/out howling at the moon, we met at least one in DA II.

You're point. Just because people who were once part of a dogma succeed in doing something the dogma say is wrong and leaves said dogma does not mean others in the dogma will do the same or go against said dogma.

 

That not how belief in dogma's work.Logic to them does not supersede faith.

[robertthebard]

You're point. Just because people who were once part of a dogma succeed in doing something the dogma say is wrong and leaves said dogma does not mean others in the dogma will do the same or go against said dogma.
 
That not how belief in dogma's work.Logic to them does not supersede faith.

I'm not sure; are you agreeing with me, or trying to use my point to disprove my point? Your post isn't really clear, and it may just be that I haven't had enough coffee yet. So for the benefit of an old man that may be coffee deprived, can you clarify what you meant to say here?

[leaguer of one]

I'm not sure; are you agreeing with me, or trying to use my point to disprove my point? Your post isn't really clear, and it may just be that I haven't had enough coffee yet. So for the benefit of an old man that may be coffee deprived, can you clarify what you meant to say here?

When people fallow a dogma they done really question the rules of it in a show a faith. So even if someone proves them wrong or one of their own does prove part of the dogma wrong they stick with fallowing it.

[Nefla]

Can't respect anyone who let the Chargers die...

[Ryzaki]

Can't respect anyone who let the Chargers die...

 

I can respect it in a the ends justify the means sort of way in a you really need the resources so you take a deal with the devil. A devil that don't respect you as an equal but you really need the help so you put up with it's ****. The Qunari are a threat but the Breach is a greater one so you'd rather deal with the greater threat now and deal with the Qunari later as it were.

 

It's just when you romance Bull afterwards my brain sort of breaks because you soldified him as a spy and you're romancing him? And then the complaining about the backstab afterward and I'm kind of just "wait what? HOW DID YOU NOT SEE THAT COMING."