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Can't respect Bull anymore


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#551
Dai Grepher

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The Qunari do have a reason to believe that... which is why their displeasure was mentioned. 

 

And Bull didn't prove much, we did. The Inquisitor gives the order, and Bull simply carries it out. That doesn't really mean he's in the clear regarding re-assessment and/or re-education (he even tells Varric that he is "not a friend of the alliance")

 

 

 

Yep, that's definitely how the Qunari work. 

 

 

 

Intel and sabotage are the duties of "Dangerous Questions", Iron Bull's branch, and the same branch that any covert operatives working outside Paar Vollen would be assigned to. 

 

 

 

No, the Qunari have never been presented as that. They have always been about order and heavily-centralized authority. Which means logs, reports, manifests, rosters etc. not "Hey, can I borrow a bunch of troops and mages for... stuff" "Sure thing bro". The alternative you are presenting makes them little better than a collection of feudal lords, which would also make any one perspective of what the Qun "is" and its demands wholly suspect and irrelevant. 

 

As it is, these agents and laborers from other branches have their own people to report to, and the Viddasala is not going to be able to hide her plans from everyone, especially in the presence of doubters. 

 

As for your comparison to the Inquisition, it is a paramilitary force not beholden to any governing body... which would actually be the antithesis of what the Qunari claim to practice. 

 

 

 

And "bas hissrad" would just mean "thing liar", if you want to go by a literal translation. But then, why not just say "hissrad" in that case? "Bas saarebas", as the Arvaarad might call Hawke in DA2, would mean "thing dangerous thing" translated literally. 

 

But... you don't translate one language into another literally, not in the real world and not in Dragon Age. We already know Bas is used as both a pejorative and as a term referring to those who live outside the Qun. Thus, "bas saarebas" meaning "unbound mage", "enemy mage", "unenlightened mage" etc. depending on context, and the same goes for "bas hissrad". 

 

Yes, hissrad is Iron Bull's designation, but Iron Bull is not the only hissrad, just as Sten was not the only sten. 

 

That was before the mission, and it was because Hissrad readily confessed to being a spy to the Inquisition. It had nothing to do with prior actions. Then, after the mission is completed successfully, the Qunari have every reason to trust him.

 

Bull proved what he needed to as far as the Qunari are concerned. Gatt would be the one giving them the report, and Gatt already strongly believed that Hissrad would never become Tal-Vashoth. And the Inquisitor didn't give the order, he just said we need to hold the hill at all cost. Bull merely agreed, and if you try to take any of the blame, he tells you not to and to just let him have this one. Also, if the Inquisitor had said nothing, Bull still would have let the Chargers die. We know this because Bull can have the Chargers in Trespasser, yet still obey Viddasala if his personal quest was not done. See, Bull only signals the retreat if he knows there's somewhere else for him to go after leaving the Qun. If he sees no other place, he'll stick with the Qun. Again, poor writing on the part of those who made Trespasser, but so it goes.

 

Not a friend of the alliance does not mean he's not a friend of the Qun, and it does not mean he needs reeducation. You are assuming he gets reeducated simply because he submitted himself to it in the past. But everything Bull says on the subject post sacrifice of the Chargers indicates that he doesn't need reeducation. He's ready to be Qunari.

 

No, that is how the Qunari work. Hissrad fulfilled his duty to the Qun. When Gatt said he knows how hard it was to sacrifice the Chargers, Hissrad said, "Doesn't matter. The Qun demanded it." So no, the Qunari have no reason to put Hissrad through reeducation when he clearly showed his loyalty to the Qun.

 

But Dragon's Breath wasn't sabotage. It was assault. It was destroying something "dangerous". Viddasala was out to destroy the elvhen magics, as well as those who allowed it to go unchecked by not dissolving the Inquisition. So that does fall under her branch. And again, the main point is that Hissrad was not part of her operation. Had he been, Viddasala would have known that the Inquisitor was not helping the agent of Fen'Harel. As for intel, every branch has a division for that, even the Antaam, which has the Baaresad, which Sten was a part of. He was sent to answer the question, "What is the blight?" Similarly, Viddasala had her own "magic destroyers" whose jobs were to gather information about how to best destroy those who harbor the elvhen magics.

 

Okay, and we also saw with the gatekeeper's log that he requested the locations of artifacts from one of the Viddasala's researchers, and each time he was given a reply that was more vague, until finally he requested a murder knife from his sten. So, if Viddasala was giving reports that were false, but still pleasing to read, then her superiors would continue to trust her. Just like they continued to trust Hissrad after he proved himself on the Storm Coast.

 

Of course the Qun is dysfunctional. This is a society that won't let a warrior back in without his sword. But this has always been the case. And as long as Viddasala can convince the Qunari she commands to keep believing in her directive, then she's fine. The turning point is when Josephine contacted the Triumvirate. That's when things started falling apart for Viddasala. She intercepted the return letter, and crumpled it up. And isn't it funny that this was the point when she got desperate enough to call on Hissrad? Before this she was trying to kill him. And the letter also states that Bull tried to contact his superiors to no avail. Which shows that she was actively intercepting Bull's letters to his division's leader so they wouldn't find out. Don't doubt me on this one Baconer, I watch Scooby-Doo. ;)

 

Not if they were assigned to Viddasala. In that case they would report to her until the mission was complete, and she would write whatever she wished in her reports to the Ariqun. As for keeping everyone in line, that would be a simple matter of assigning certain people to certain tasks. She had the Antaam fight the elven spirits, and she told them the Inquisition was working with these spirits and the agent of Fen'Harel. Therefore, they were also instructed to station themselves in the ruin near the eluvian near the Winter Palace (there is a note somewhere talking about a secret location outside Halamshiral). Then, her own agents which she had direct command over were the ones mining the lyrium and feeding it to Saarebas. Jerrik was part of this crew, but he was a doubter, like some others. He knew Viddasala was acting outside the Qun. As for the Saarebas, part of her role is to study magic so she can stop it. She probably told the Ariqun that she needed some Saarebas in order to study them. And since the Saarebas are blindly loyal for the most part, she could easily manipulate them. And it isn't like they can speak out against her. Those in the library were mostly hers, but some Antaam. Again, fighting spirits (we find Qunari who died with horrified expressions). Then some Antaam defending the Darvaarad, thinking that the people attacking were just agents of Fen'Harel. And those at the final ruin were hers and some Antaam under the same deception, though their main mission was to attack the agent of Fen'Harel.

 

I would also like to point out that some of the Ben-Hassrath agents who attacked with one-handed swords were in fact female. It is a violation of the Qun for those females to fight as warriors. I'm not talking about the dual-dagger assassins. I'm referring to sword wielding warriors.

 

I don't see what governing bodies have to do with anything. Ferelden and Orlais had governing bodies, but they were still infiltrated both by Venatori and Viddasala. The Inquisition had a chain of command, but they were still deceived, and the Inquisition was a small organization. The Qunari are a massive organization with three different branches and various divisions, often ruled by a single person at each step. If one of those leaders goes outside the Qun, who is there to correct it but one person over them? In that case it's a simple matter to lie to that one person. Which I believe is what Viddasala did, and I think the evidence indicates this.

 

In the epilogue it states that no one knows what debates were held in Par Vollen over the matter, but there was at least some debate. It was likely something the leaders in the Triumvirate argued about regarding oversight of lower ranking officers and how one agent's actions almost cost them the Alliance and provoked full scale war with the south at a time when they aren't ready for it.

 

Yes, that's what it means, though grammar would probably have it as "lying thing". To the Qunari, "thing" means someone outside the Qun. So the author of the letter was basically calling Hissrad a thing outside the Qun. Why? The Ariqun knows Hissrad is loyal. This author wanted him dead. Hmmm.

 

Yes, it would mean "thing, dangerous thing". Or grammatically, "dangerous thing outside the qun". A word can mean different things. This is common of every language. It depends when and how it is used. A Japanese word for example can take on a totally new meaning if a certain word comes before it, or if it's used at the end of a sentence instead of at the start.

 

Okay, so you admit that bas is used as a pejorative or to those outside the Qun. So either way, it was used against Hissrad, who was not bas at all. Do the words unbound, enemy, or unenlightened describe anything Hissrad was to the Qun? No. Do they describe what he was to a rogue agent acting outside the Qun? Yes.

 

Okay then. What other "Hissrad" would this letter be referring to? And why would this Hissrad be lumped in with the agents of Fen'Harel? And if it wasn't Bull, but rather a true enemy, then why was it crossed out?



#552
Eyes_Only

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Considering Iron Bull will stand by and watch The Charges die, his betrayal of your inquisitor is no surprise either.

 

I brought him along just to see what his reaction was going to be but of course The Charges were alive and well. he laughed at the invitation and scoffed at the Qun. Thats the Iron Bull my inquisitor is friends with.



#553
The Baconer

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That was before the mission, and it was because Hissrad readily confessed to being a spy to the Inquisition. It had nothing to do with prior actions. Then, after the mission is completed successfully, the Qunari have every reason to trust him.

 

Bull proved what he needed to as far as the Qunari are concerned. Gatt would be the one giving them the report, and Gatt already strongly believed that Hissrad would never become Tal-Vashoth. 

 

They were displeased that he revealed his status as a spy, and with the information he was sharing with the Inquisition. That he followed through with the Inquisitor's order to leave the Chargers doesn't mean he'll change his methods, or his ideologies, to better suit their purposes. 

 

 

And the Inquisitor didn't give the order, he just said we need to hold the hill at all cost. 

 

That is the order, yes. The cost is the Chargers, and both the Inquisitor and Bull know that. 

 

 

Not a friend of the alliance does not mean he's not a friend of the Qun, and it does not mean he needs reeducation. You are assuming he gets reeducated simply because he submitted himself to it in the past. But everything Bull says on the subject post sacrifice of the Chargers indicates that he doesn't need reeducation. He's ready to be Qunari.

 

Of course it makes him a candidate for re-education. Being committed to the Qun doesn't mean you're committed to the Qunari's methods, and whether or not he receives re-education isn't up to him anyway. 

 

 

No, that is how the Qunari work. 

 

No, it isn't, and that will be the consensus until the lore states otherwise. 

 

But Dragon's Breath wasn't sabotage. It was assault. It was destroying something "dangerous". Viddasala was out to destroy the elvhen magics, as well as those who allowed it to go unchecked by not dissolving the Inquisition. So that does fall under her branch. 

 

Yes, it does fall under her branch, which is why she was the coordinator, but the execution of the plan itself requires resources from other sections of the Qunari like the Antaam or other units of the Ben-Hassrath. 

 

 

Of course the Qun is dysfunctional. This is a society that won't let a warrior back in without his sword. But this has always been the case. And as long as Viddasala can convince the Qunari she commands to keep believing in her directive, then she's fine. The turning point is when Josephine contacted the Triumvirate. That's when things started falling apart for Viddasala. She intercepted the return letter, and crumpled it up. And isn't it funny that this was the point when she got desperate enough to call on Hissrad? Before this she was trying to kill him. And the letter also states that Bull tried to contact his superiors to no avail. Which shows that she was actively intercepting Bull's letters to his division's leader so they wouldn't find out. Don't doubt me on this one Baconer, I watch Scooby-Doo. ;)

 

So, the Qunari are chronically dysfunctional with as many differing perspective of the Qun as there are senior officers. Your problem seems to be that you are unreasonably confident in your understanding of the Qun -- a text whose available contents amounts to less than five paragraphs. Your own understanding of it would then be derived from the dialogue of the individual Qunari we have met, the same Qunari who just can't seem to agree what the demands of the Qun actually are, the same Qunari who espouse ideas that are literally the opposite of what the Tome's available transcripts describe. The question then would be how we can declare that someone is acting against the Qun, when the Qun has not even been reliably defined for us. 

 

Or, the Qunari could just be lying. Occam's razor. 

 

 

Not if they were assigned to Viddasala. In that case they would report to her until the mission was complete, and she would write whatever she wished in her reports to the Ariqun. 

 

Of course, you already know the entire process. Why am I not surprised. 

 

 

I would also like to point out that some of the Ben-Hassrath agents who attacked with one-handed swords were in fact female. It is a violation of the Qun for those females to fight as warriors. I'm not talking about the dual-dagger assassins. I'm referring to sword wielding warriors.

 

The Qunari do not see them as warriors, they are priests who enforce the Qun. That much has been known for a while now. 


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#554
Dai Grepher

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Considering Iron Bull will stand by and watch The Charges die, his betrayal of your inquisitor is no surprise either.

 

He didn't betray the Inquisitor, he betrayed the Qun. That's the problem I have with this "storyline".



#555
robertthebard

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He didn't betray the Inquisitor, he betrayed the Qun. That's the problem I have with this "storyline".


If you save the Chargers, IB is no longer a member of the Qun, he is Tal Vashoth, so it's impossible for him to "betray the Qun".

If you don't save the Chargers, he continues to be a spy for the Qunari. Everything he does until he's ordered to "blow his cover" is consistent with his mission parameters. So again, no betrayal of the Qun.
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#556
The Baconer

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I don't see what governing bodies have to do with anything. Ferelden and Orlais had governing bodies, but they were still infiltrated both by Venatori and Viddasala. The Inquisition had a chain of command, but they were still deceived, and the Inquisition was a small organization. The Qunari are a massive organization with three different branches and various divisions, often ruled by a single person at each step. If one of those leaders goes outside the Qun, who is there to correct it but one person over them? In that case it's a simple matter to lie to that one person. Which I believe is what Viddasala did, and I think the evidence indicates this.

 

You are comparing individuals infiltrating an organization, to entire factions going rogue. 

 

 

Yes, that's what it means, though grammar would probably have it as "lying thing". To the Qunari, "thing" means someone outside the Qun. So the author of the letter was basically calling Hissrad a thing outside the Qun. 

 

It's not referring to Iron Bull. 

 

 

Yes, it would mean "thing, dangerous thing". Or grammatically, "dangerous thing outside the qun". A word can mean different things. This is common of every language. It depends when and how it is used. A Japanese word for example can take on a totally new meaning if a certain word comes before it, or if it's used at the end of a sentence instead of at the start.

 

Yes, that is reiterating what I just said, thanks. 

 

 

Okay, so you admit that bas is used as a pejorative or to those outside the Qun. 

 

I'm not "admitting" it, it was already common knowledge. 

 

 

So either way, it was used against Hissrad, 

 

No. 

 

 

Okay then. What other "Hissrad" would this letter be referring to? And why would this Hissrad be lumped in with the agents of Fen'Harel? And if it wasn't Bull, but rather a true enemy, then why was it crossed out?

 

As I said, enemy spies, "bas hissrad". The spies who tipped off the Inquisition numerous times on the Qunari plot. It was crossed out because, as the codex literally states, the author of the note was tasked with giving instructions to Viddathari who did not know Qunlat, even though the author him/herself was not fluent in the common tongue. 

 

Thus, you have writer falling back into their native tongue for certain words and phrases, before coming up with a suitable translation. Bas hissrad - Agents of Fen'Harel (enemy spies). 


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#557
Dai Grepher

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If you save the Chargers, IB is no longer a member of the Qun, he is Tal Vashoth, so it's impossible for him to "betray the Qun".

If you don't save the Chargers, he continues to be a spy for the Qunari. Everything he does until he's ordered to "blow his cover" is consistent with his mission parameters. So again, no betrayal of the Qun.

 

Didn't say he betrayed the Qun in Trespasser as a Tal-Vashoth. Strawman.

 

Ordered to "blow his cover" by a Tal-Vashoth. He follows the order, thus he betrays the Qun.
 



#558
thesuperdarkone2

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Didn't say he betrayed the Qun in Trespasser as a Tal-Vashoth. Strawman.

Ordered to "blow his cover" by a Tal-Vashoth. He follows the order, thus he betrays the Qun.

Have you considered that maybe viddasala wasn't a rogue agent and that the Qunari who are known to not care about treaties were actually planning an invasion? Or did you think you would be best friends with the Qunari forever?
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#559
In Exile

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Have you considered that maybe viddasala wasn't a rogue agent and that the Qunari who are known to not care about treaties were actually planning an invasion? Or did you think you would be best friends with the Qunari forever?

 

As Sten says, the Qunari don't "do" treaties, and to the extent that they act otherwise, it's because the rest of Thedas acts like they do mean something. 


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#560
Dai Grepher

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You are comparing individuals infiltrating an organization, to entire factions going rogue. 

 

 

 

It's not referring to Iron Bull. 

 

 

 

Yes, that is reiterating what I just said, thanks. 

 

 

 

I'm not "admitting" it, it was already common knowledge. 

 

 

 

No. 

 

 

 

As I said, enemy spies, "bas hissrad". The spies who tipped off the Inquisition numerous times on the Qunari plot. It was crossed out because, as the codex literally states, the author of the note was tasked with giving instructions to Viddathari who did not know Qunlat, even though the author him/herself was not fluent in the common tongue. 

 

Thus, you have writer falling back into their native tongue for certain words and phrases, before coming up with a suitable translation. Bas hissrad - Agents of Fen'Harel (enemy spies). 

 

Okay then, apples to apples. Loghain.

 

Then who is it referring to?

 

Well then how can you still disagree with me?

 

Well then how can you still disagree with me?

 

Then who?

 

Yeah but "hissrad" doesn't mean spy. So... repeating the same refuted argument isn't going to work. And even if it did, how the heck is the Viddathari unit supposed to kill enemy spies in Halamshiral? They don't know who they are. The only one they would be able to identify is Iron Bull. Oh, who just happens to be called Hissard. But who could it be? I mean, other than Hissrad, because obviously it's not talking about the guy who is in an alliance with the Inquisition and is currently cutting down one Ben-Hassrath agent after another along side the Inquisitor.

 

Yeah... but why cross it out just for the Viddathari? Why not leave it in so they can learn what "hissrad" means? "Eliminate hissrad, the liar who is outside the Qun with the other agents of Fen'Harel." Seems to me the author wanted them to kill Iron Bull, and then crossed it out and replaced it with "agents of Fen'Harel" because he didn't want to leave implication that he just called for a hit on an official Qunari agent.

 

But he didn't cross out bas or Ataashi-asaara. He simply started a new sentence.



#561
Dai Grepher

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Have you considered that maybe viddasala wasn't a rogue agent and that the Qunari who are known to not care about treaties were actually planning an invasion? Or did you think you would be best friends with the Qunari forever?

 

Yes, I have. But I don't think Dragon's Breath was their plan to invade, and I have posted in-game facts to support that assertion.

 

I'm certain the Qunari are planning an invasion. It's just that wasn't it. They weren't ready to invade yet. Viddasala acted on her own because she obviously disagreed, and was insane.
 



#562
9TailsFox

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Yes, I have. But I don't think Dragon's Breath was their plan to invade, and I have posted in-game facts to support that assertion.

 

I'm certain the Qunari are planning an invasion. It's just that wasn't it. They weren't ready to invade yet. Viddasala acted on her own because she obviously disagreed, and was insane.
 

Sky opening helped push plans of invasion very well.



#563
The Baconer

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Okay then, apples to apples. Loghain.

 

Loghain pulled a coup when the previous leader of the state died, that's not even apples to apples. I don't even know what you're trying to accomplish with these failed comparisons to Ferelden and Orlais. 

 

 

Then who is it referring to?

 

Elvhen spies, which would also encompass the Inquisition given the letter's content. 

 

 

Well then how can you still disagree with me?

 

Disagree with you? I just stated information on how languages are translated and the different meanings of "bas" depending on context. You just repeated my point back at me. Your task would be to formulate how the term "bas hissrad" can only be referring to Iron Bull, even when it makes no sense contextually. 

 

 

Yeah but "hissrad" doesn't mean spy. 

 

Yes it does; "Liar, Creator of Illusions". Iron Bull's purpose is espionage, that is primarily what he was sent to southern Thedas to do. Hissrads are spies, whether they are with the Qunari or not. 

 

If we wanted to interpret it literally as you are doing right now, his task would apparently be to tell lies. As in, just tell lies and... not much else. Ok. 
 

 

Yeah... but why cross it out just for the Viddathari? Why not leave it in so they can learn what "hissrad" means? "Eliminate hissrad, the liar who is outside the Qun with the other agents of Fen'Harel."

 

Because, as the description of the letter literally states, the author was not fluent in the common tongue, and was trying to issue orders in a timely manner. "The liar who is outside the Qun with the other agents" could very well be outside their vocabulary. 

 

 

But he didn't cross out bas or Ataashi-asaara. He simply started a new sentence.

 

Um, yes. That whole line was crossed out, actually. Please read the text. 


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#564
robertthebard

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Didn't say he betrayed the Qun in Trespasser as a Tal-Vashoth. Strawman.
 
Ordered to "blow his cover" by a Tal-Vashoth. He follows the order, thus he betrays the Qun.


You have absolutely no proof, only supposition, that that's what happened. I, on the other hand, took everything at face value, based entirely on what we actually know about the Qun, not much, to be sure, instead of what I want to think I know about it. Arishok fails to take over Kirkwall; "We did not support this action". What is it, do you suppose, they'd have said if he'd succeeded, would they have still replaced him? No? Sort of telling, isn't it?

Vid fails her mission, again, she's disavowed. Do you suppose they'd have been disavowing her if she'd succeeded? No? Why not? If she's not acting with their full knowledge and consent, why wouldn't they take action against her for violating her role in the Qun? Maybe because, until she failed, she wasn't violating her role? You have 0 proof that any of these conclusions I have drawn are wrong, other than what you think one note means. All it means to me is that you have one highly edited note, with half of it being indecipherable. What happens to your theory if we get the translation, and it says Keep up the good work, if you fail, we have no idea what you're up to. This is, of course, consistent with what happens, so by preponderance of evidence, they are disavowing her only because she failed to fulfill her mission.
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#565
Dai Grepher

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Sky opening helped push plans of invasion very well.

 

How so? The land was run amok with demons. Can't invade while there's an invasion going on. And afterward the nations were stronger because they repelled invasion by demons.



#566
Dai Grepher

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You have absolutely no proof, only supposition, that that's what happened. I, on the other hand, took everything at face value, based entirely on what we actually know about the Qun, not much, to be sure, instead of what I want to think I know about it. Arishok fails to take over Kirkwall; "We did not support this action". What is it, do you suppose, they'd have said if he'd succeeded, would they have still replaced him? No? Sort of telling, isn't it?

Vid fails her mission, again, she's disavowed. Do you suppose they'd have been disavowing her if she'd succeeded? No? Why not? If she's not acting with their full knowledge and consent, why wouldn't they take action against her for violating her role in the Qun? Maybe because, until she failed, she wasn't violating her role? You have 0 proof that any of these conclusions I have drawn are wrong, other than what you think one note means. All it means to me is that you have one highly edited note, with half of it being indecipherable. What happens to your theory if we get the translation, and it says Keep up the good work, if you fail, we have no idea what you're up to. This is, of course, consistent with what happens, so by preponderance of evidence, they are disavowing her only because she failed to fulfill her mission.

 

I posted proof. You ignore it because it you don't like the facts.

 

The Arishok admits that he was not authorized to take over Kirkwall. Of course the Qunari disavowed him.

 

The Viddasala angrily crumples up a letter from Par Vollen disavowing her, because she knows she was acting without authorization. Of course the Qunari disavowed her.

 

The reason Par Vollen disavows them is because neither one of them were authorized to do the things they did. It has nothing to do with the fact they failed. Had they succeeded there would be no one to disavow anything to, but those responsible still would have been reeducated or worse for acting outside the Qun. It's all about the rules. Remember how all the Qunari attack a Hawke who turns over saarebas because he spoke to Hawke? That's because the Qun demands anyone who is spoken to by a saarebas be put to death because of the mere possibility that the words carried some sort of corruption that affected the person spoken to. So all those Qunari risk their own lives to kill someone over a slight possibility. Why? Because Da Rulez. Viddasala broke the rules. Success is no excuse for failure to abide by the Qun.

 

They did take action against her when they found out about it from Josephine's letter. They didn't know about it until then. The letter wasn't to Viddasala. It was in reply to Josephine. Viddasala intercepted it. The letter had no Qunlat text.

 

You're posting your own biased assumption. Not fact.



#567
Dai Grepher

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Loghain pulled a coup when the previous leader of the state died, that's not even apples to apples. I don't even know what you're trying to accomplish with these failed comparisons to Ferelden and Orlais. 

 

 

 

Elvhen spies, which would also encompass the Inquisition given the letter's content. 

 

 

 

Disagree with you? I just stated information on how languages are translated and the different meanings of "bas" depending on context. You just repeated my point back at me. Your task would be to formulate how the term "bas hissrad" can only be referring to Iron Bull, even when it makes no sense contextually. 

 

 

 

Yes it does; "Liar, Creator of Illusions". Iron Bull's purpose is espionage, that is primarily what he was sent to southern Thedas to do. Hissrads are spies, whether they are with the Qunari or not. 

 

If we wanted to interpret it literally as you are doing right now, his task would apparently be to tell lies. As in, just tell lies and... not much else. Ok. 
 

 

 

Because, as the description of the letter literally states, the author was not fluent in the common tongue, and was trying to issue orders in a timely manner. "The liar who is outside the Qun with the other agents" could very well be outside their vocabulary. 

 

 

 

Um, yes. That whole line was crossed out, actually. Please read the text. 

 

No, his coup caused the king to die. The point is that he was a servant to an authority that acted outside that authority without that authority's knowledge. So yes, it is possible for those within the Qun to act outside the Qun while saying they serve the Qun. And it is possible for their superiors to have no knowledge of their actions.

 

So the orders are for Viddathari to locate and eliminate Inquisition spies within the Inquisition? That makes no sense. Again, hissrad doesn't mean spy.

 

No, you wrote it made no sense contextually, then when I wrote that grammar allows it to make sense contextually because of how language works. You agree that this is how language works, so again, how can you disagree with my point? Or are you saying "bas hissrad" changes things around to mean "enemies spies"? As if putting the words "thing" and "liar" together change the words into completely different words. If so, then you are just guessing in order to support your own theory. You have no evidence that "bas hissrad" means "enemy spies".

 

Yeah but you're changing this from Bull's title to Bull's purpose. We aren't talking about his purpose, we're talking about his title. The word itself. What he is called. You're mixing up what he is (a liar) with what he does (spy).

 

Right, issue orders. Not retract them. He crossed this own orders out, and gave lesser ones. Why? Because he wanted to kill Iron Bull and then thought to himself, "No, better not give any orders that tell them to kill a Qunari. Besides, we might be able to use him later." So he changed the order to something more vague, which was kill agents of Fen'Harel. Then the Viddathari will attack Bull, thinking he's an agent of Fen'Harel. If it's outside his vocabulary then what is he doing giving orders to Viddathari? Sounds like a shoddy rogue operation. Not the kind of thing you would trust an invasion to.

 

It isn't specific if it's the whole line, or just that sentence. The sentence before it may not have been crossed out.



#568
thats1evildude

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I am shocked, SHOCKED that the self-confessed agent of the Qun turned on you after you made him kill all his other friends.
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#569
robertthebard

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I posted proof. You ignore it because it you don't like the facts.
 
The Arishok admits that he was not authorized to take over Kirkwall. Of course the Qunari disavowed him.
 
The Viddasala angrily crumples up a letter from Par Vollen disavowing her, because she knows she was acting without authorization. Of course the Qunari disavowed her.
 
The reason Par Vollen disavows them is because neither one of them were authorized to do the things they did. It has nothing to do with the fact they failed. Had they succeeded there would be no one to disavow anything to, but those responsible still would have been reeducated or worse for acting outside the Qun. It's all about the rules. Remember how all the Qunari attack a Hawke who turns over saarebas because he spoke to Hawke? That's because the Qun demands anyone who is spoken to by a saarebas be put to death because of the mere possibility that the words carried some sort of corruption that affected the person spoken to. So all those Qunari risk their own lives to kill someone over a slight possibility. Why? Because Da Rulez. Viddasala broke the rules. Success is no excuse for failure to abide by the Qun.
 
They did take action against her when they found out about it from Josephine's letter. They didn't know about it until then. The letter wasn't to Viddasala. It was in reply to Josephine. Viddasala intercepted it. The letter had no Qunlat text.
 
You're posting your own biased assumption. Not fact.


No, and the text of the note was provided up thread, maybe even by you. You are ignoring the facts, because they don't fit your theory. It's a pretty common theme around here with theory crafters. They get an idea, and then set out to prove it. Anything that doesn't fit must be disregarded.

However, let's look at some details that you want to ignore to support your "rogue faction" for the Arishok. What you are saying is that he was not authorized to do whatever it took to get their book back, despite this book being very important to their society. This despite the fact that it's the whole reason they're in Kirkwall to begin with. So they couldn't have sent some ships to pick their Arishok up? If the book wasn't that important to them, why was he out chasing it down? Why does giving it to him cause him to leave peacefully, if you turn over Isabela? I know, the Devil's in the details, but these details are part of the game. You can't choose to ignore them simply because they don't fit your "rogue faction" theory. I'll note here that turning over Isabela is optional, and can even be taken off the table if she doesn't have enough Friendship/Rivalry to return the book. However, this doesn't change the fact that the resolution to the Qunari problem in Kirkwall hinges on the book.

This is, however, what you expect us to do, ignore the details. The only facts you want to include in your theory are the ones that make it make sense, everything else needs to be summarily ignored. If we choose not to ignore these details, we're "doing it wrong". The fact is, you're doing it wrong. You don't change the facts to fit the theory, you change the theory to fit the facts.

#570
Iakus

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How so? The land was run amok with demons. Can't invade while there's an invasion going on. And afterward the nations were stronger because they repelled invasion by demons.

It also showed widespread uncontrolled use of magic in the southern lands.  Something the Qunari really, really hate



#571
robertthebard

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How so? The land was run amok with demons. Can't invade while there's an invasion going on. And afterward the nations were stronger because they repelled invasion by demons.


Once again, let's ignore what we're presented in order to support your theory. When you do the recruitment mission for IB, he tells you that the Qunari are planning to invade precisely because of the Breach and it's associated mayhem. So, is there any other established lore we need to be ignoring to suit your head canon, or can we finally move to "Ok, it's just my head canon"?

#572
QueenCrow

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I am shocked, SHOCKED that the self-confessed agent of the Qun turned on you after you made him kill all his other friends.

 

I have to admit, it felt so good to do the logical thing and inform the self-confessed agent of the Qun that the Inquisition would not be using his services.  Problem solved. :)



#573
Ryzaki

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I have to admit, it felt so good to do the logical thing and inform the self-confessed agent of the Qun that the Inquisition would not be using his services.  Problem solved. :)

 

:D

 

Roleplaying is nice isn't it?

 

(I need to make a quizzy that refuses all extra help well...save Bull because I can't go a game without recruiting Bull. #Douchequisitor )


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#574
QueenCrow

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:D

 

Roleplaying is nice isn't it?

 

(I need to make a quizzy that refuses all extra help well...save Bull because I can't go a game without recruiting Bull. #Douchequisitor )

 

Yep!  Super fun!

 

Happy Douchequisiting!


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#575
Dai Grepher

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I am shocked, SHOCKED that the self-confessed agent of the Qun turned on you after you made him kill all his other friends.

 

Except that he will side with the rogue Viddasala even if the Chargers are alive via not doing the Storm Coast quest.