657 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

No, and the text of the note was provided up thread, maybe even by you. You are ignoring the facts, because they don't fit your theory. It's a pretty common theme around here with theory crafters. They get an idea, and then set out to prove it. Anything that doesn't fit must be disregarded.

However, let's look at some details that you want to ignore to support your "rogue faction" for the Arishok. What you are saying is that he was not authorized to do whatever it took to get their book back, despite this book being very important to their society. This despite the fact that it's the whole reason they're in Kirkwall to begin with. So they couldn't have sent some ships to pick their Arishok up? If the book wasn't that important to them, why was he out chasing it down? Why does giving it to him cause him to leave peacefully, if you turn over Isabela? I know, the Devil's in the details, but these details are part of the game. You can't choose to ignore them simply because they don't fit your "rogue faction" theory. I'll note here that turning over Isabela is optional, and can even be taken off the table if she doesn't have enough Friendship/Rivalry to return the book. However, this doesn't change the fact that the resolution to the Qunari problem in Kirkwall hinges on the book.

This is, however, what you expect us to do, ignore the details. The only facts you want to include in your theory are the ones that make it make sense, everything else needs to be summarily ignored. If we choose not to ignore these details, we're "doing it wrong". The fact is, you're doing it wrong. You don't change the facts to fit the theory, you change the theory to fit the facts.

 

You might be thinking of Communiqué in the Deep Roads. I am referring to the Letters and Replies in the Darvaarad. The reply was sent to Josephine from the Triumvirate in common, elegant script only. Viddasala intercepted it, read it, and angrily crumpled it up.

 

No, I don't ignore any facts. I will address any concern you might have with my position.

 

I never wrote the Arishok was not prepared to do whatever it took to get the tome back. I referred to the Arishok's own admission that his role was not to spread enlightenment to Kirkwall. He said this himself, and he said they should all be grateful for this fact. Finding the tome had nothing to do with taking the city. He took the city because he finally had enough of sitting and witnessing its corruption.

 

I never wrote the tome was not important. You're posting a strawman, or maybe you are genuinely confused.

[thats1evildude]

Except that he will side with the rogue Viddasala even if the Chargers are alive via not doing the Storm Coast quest.

Because he's still a qunari in that case.

[Dai Grepher]

Because he's still a qunari in that case.

 

Which means the Chargers have nothing to do with his decision. Right?

 

In that case the only problem is why he decided to obey a rogue agent who had no authority over him.

[thats1evildude]

In that case the only problem is why he decided to obey a rogue agent who had no authority over him.

 

But what does Iron Bull know at the time? Is he aware that the Vidassala is acting on her own?

[The Baconer]

No, his coup caused the king to die. The point is that he was a servant to an authority that acted outside that authority without that authority's knowledge. So yes, it is possible for those within the Qun to act outside the Qun while saying they serve the Qun. And it is possible for their superiors to have no knowledge of their actions.

 

His further action outside authority required that the previous authority was dead. There is absolutely no resemblance between Loghain's insurrection and the Viddasala acting beyond the knowledge of the Qunari hierarchy.

 

 

So the orders are for Viddathari to locate and eliminate Inquisition spies within the Inquisition? That makes no sense. Again, hissrad doesn't mean spy.

 

Operators of the Inquisition (Inquisitor+party), which the Qunari at the time assumed were also agents of Fen'Harel. 

 

Yes it does. 

 

 

Or are you saying "bas hissrad" changes things around to mean "enemies spies"? As if putting the words "thing" and "liar" together change the words into completely different words. If so, then you are just guessing in order to support your own theory. You have no evidence that "bas hissrad" means "enemy spies".

 

Yes, "enemy spy, spy outside of the Qun". We already know of two words that have been literally modified the same way in "bas Saarebas" and "Basvaarad". 

 

 

 

Right, issue orders. Not retract them. He crossed this own orders out, and gave lesser ones. Why? Because he wanted to kill Iron Bull and then thought to himself, "No, better not give any orders that tell them to kill a Qunari. Besides, we might be able to use him later." So he changed the order to something more vague, which was kill agents of Fen'Harel. 

 

CSI: Dai Grepher

 

 

If it's outside his vocabulary then what is he doing giving orders to Viddathari? Sounds like a shoddy rogue operation. Not the kind of thing you would trust an invasion to.

 

Or an operation that has sustained heavy losses and casualties in the face of an enemy offense, which is what was happening. They're task was not the invasion, it was to make way for it. 

 

 

It isn't specific if it's the whole line, or just that sentence. The sentence before it may not have been crossed out.

 

The note would be as thus:

 

Viddathari Kith: The bas disruption of the Ataashi-asaara must be ended at once. Herah decreases with each-

 

The Dragon's Breath must be complete. Locate and eliminate bas hissra

 

Eliminate agents of Fen'Harel. Time runs out.

[dragondreamer]

Viddasala outranks Bull under the Ben-Hassrath.  So under the Qun, Bull may have had no choice but to follow her orders, rogue or not.  The Qun doesn't seem very flexible, especially when the members are conditioned to remain in their roles at all costs.  It probably would have required someone who outranked the Viddasala to appear and override her command.  Viddasala was operating far from home, and there was no one who could object to what she was doing.

 

I'm not entirely convinced Par Vollen didn't know, but either way, Qun!Bull was unable to deviate from his role.

[Dai Grepher]

But what does Iron Bull know at the time? Is he aware that the Vidassala is acting on her own?

 

I would hope so. You can take him to every place up to this point. He knows that his messages to his contacts aren't getting through, he knows his people are pleased with the Inquisition's work, he knows they would not authorize such an attack, he knows if they did they would have told him (and logically not had him there to begin with), he knows that Viddasala should be smashing eluvians and not using them, he gets attacked by Viddasala's agents and even at her direct command no less, he learns that she's mining lyrium to feed to saarebas, he knows she's out of the information loop because she thinks they are agents of Fen'Harel, he knows she brought in red lyrium when he lost his Chargers in a mission to keep red lyrium out of other lands, and he knows that the Triumvirate sent a letter to Josephine stating that they did not authorize any attacks on the south and that they value the alliance greatly.

 

So, did Hissrad know she was acting without orders? If he didn't, then he's deaf, dumb, and blind.

[Al Foley]

I would hope so. You can take him to every place up to this point. He knows that his messages to his contacts aren't getting through, he knows his people are pleased with the Inquisition's work, he knows they would not authorize such an attack, he knows if they did they would have told him (and logically not had him there to begin with), he knows that Viddasala should be smashing eluvians and not using them, he gets attacked by Viddasala's agents and even at her direct command no less, he learns that she's mining lyrium to feed to saarebas, he knows she's out of the information loop because she thinks they are agents of Fen'Harel, he knows she brought in red lyrium when he lost his Chargers in a mission to keep red lyrium out of other lands, and he knows that the Triumvirate sent a letter to Josephine stating that they did not authorize any attacks on the south and that they value the alliance greatly.

 

So, did Hissrad know she was acting without orders? If he didn't, then he's deaf, dumb, and blind.

Either that or he knows more then we think he knows and he knows that everything is a fabrication and the Vidisaala is acting under orders. 

[robertthebard]

Except that he will side with the rogue Viddasala even if the Chargers are alive via not doing the Storm Coast quest.

Because if you don't do the quest, he's a Qunari spy, fulfilling his role under the Qun. How is this so complicated for you, and yet you have such an elaborate conspiracy theory-esque scenario that you seem to be trying to keep track of? Is it because it doesn't fit, and so has to be rationalized away?

[thats1evildude]

 he knows that the Triumvirate sent a letter to Josephine stating that they did not authorize any attacks on the south and that they value the alliance greatly.

 

All part of the cover for the operation.

[Kurogane335]

However, let's look at some details that you want to ignore to support your "rogue faction" for the Arishok. What you are saying is that he was not authorized to do whatever it took to get their book back, despite this book being very important to their society. This despite the fact that it's the whole reason they're in Kirkwall to begin with. So they couldn't have sent some ships to pick their Arishok up? If the book wasn't that important to them, why was he out chasing it down? Why does giving it to him cause him to leave peacefully, if you turn over Isabela? I know, the Devil's in the details, but these details are part of the game. You can't choose to ignore them simply because they don't fit your "rogue faction" theory. I'll note here that turning over Isabela is optional, and can even be taken off the table if she doesn't have enough Friendship/Rivalry to return the book. However, this doesn't change the fact that the resolution to the Qunari problem in Kirkwall hinges on the book.

 

I'll answer about the Arishok bit by providing you this link : http://forum.bioware...-qunari-fights/

 

There, I've explained why there is obvious differences between the situation of the Arishok and the Viddasala. Conflating the two situations is actually forgetting or even twisting the details given by the games to reach an pre-supposed solution : the Qunari are all evil drones that must be eradicated and their culture destroyed. But players makes those (false IMHO) assumptions because the game designers themselves have clearly made the same in working on DA:I.

 

 

All part of the cover for the operation.

 

This is far from clear, since this Codex entry only happens of you have not sided with the Qun, was destined to Josephine but never made it and was found among the Viddasala papers. This portion of lore can just as well mean that the Viddasala has turned Tal-Vashoth without knowing it (i.e. going too far in the prosecution of what she saw as a Demand of the Qun), or that it is simply deniability.

 

I would also like to point it that the Qunari never said that the Arishok was not tasked with what he did in Kirkwall. They said that they wouldn't speak about it.That's quite different from them actively stating that one of their agent has turned rogue. Another difference between the Viddasala and the Arishok situations.

[robertthebard]

I'll answer about the Arishok bit by providing you this link : http://forum.bioware...-qunari-fights/
 
There, I've explained why there is obvious differences between the situation of the Arishok and the Viddasala. Conflating the two situations is actually forgetting or even twisting the details given by the games to reach an pre-supposed solution : the Qunari are all evil drones that must be eradicated and their culture destroyed. But players makes those (false IMHO) assumptions because the game designers themselves have clearly made the same in working on DA:I.
 
 
 
This is far from clear, since this Codex entry only happens of you have not sided with the Qun, was destined to Josephine but never made it and was found among the Viddasala papers. This portion of lore can just as well mean that the Viddasala has turned Tal-Vashoth without knowing it (i.e. going too far in the prosecution of what she saw as a Demand of the Qun), or that it is simply deniability.
 
I would also like to point it that the Qunari never said that the Arishok was not tasked with what he did in Kirkwall. They said that they wouldn't speak about it.That's quite different from them actively stating that one of their agent has turned rogue. Another difference between the Viddasala and the Arishok situations.

OK, I read it. What was I supposed to take away from it? That another poster thinks that "We shall not speak of this" isn't disavowing it? What is it, you suppose that that means? Varic's actual line is closer to "well, the Qun didn't actually approve of his actions". Where did he get that idea? From "We will not speak of this"? Again, let's avoid leaving inconvenient evidence out of our evidence, ok?

[Kurogane335]

OK, I read it. What was I supposed to take away from it? That another poster thinks that "We shall not speak of this" isn't disavowing it? What is it, you suppose that that means? Varic's actual line is closer to "well, the Qun didn't actually approve of his actions". Where did he get that idea? From "We will not speak of this"? Again, let's avoid leaving inconvenient evidence out of our evidence, ok?

And where do you take that it means that the Arishok was disavowed ? Varric doesn't know it, he suppose that it is what they meant. You're just displaying a great deal in hypocrisy here, just like a lot of those who says "Qun = ALL EVIL but Tevinter is reformable", and you are twisting the facts to submit to your own conceptions of them.

Show me somewhere in any game something from the hands of the Qunari saying : "The Arishok was disavowed" like they did with the Viddasala, and you will be right. So far, there isn't, so their situations and their treatment from the Qunari are different.

It is not up to me to disprove something which doesn't exists anywhere but in the imaginations of some players. it is up to you and other which support the same position to prove it. With facts, not the usual mishmash of preconceived theories about the Qun and partial recognitions of the facts and lore stated by the games.

[The Baconer]

Not disavowing the Arishok seems more actively malicious... Believing that they did is giving them the benefit of the doubt, in all honesty. 

[robertthebard]

And where do you take that it means that the Arishok was disavowed ? Varric doesn't know it, he suppose that it is what they meant. You're just displaying a great deal in hypocrisy here, just like a lot of those who says "Qun = ALL EVIL but Tevinter is reformable", and you are twisting the facts to submit to your own conceptions of them.
Show me somewhere in any game something from the hands of the Qunari saying : "The Arishok was disavowed" like they did with the Viddasala, and you will be right. So far, there isn't, so their situations and their treatment from the Qunari are different.
It is not up to me to disprove something which doesn't exists anywhere but in the imaginations of some players. it is up to you and other which support the same position to prove it. With facts, not the usual mishmash of preconceived theories about the Qun and partial recognitions of the facts and lore stated by the games.

Here's the deal: Varic says "they didn't approve of his actions" in Haven, when you first talk to him, if you go through all the dialog about Kirkwall, and Hawke dueling the Arishok. What does "they didn't approve of his actions" mean? Isn't disapproving and disavowing the same thing? "He did that on his own, we had no part in it" doesn't mean "He did that on his own, we have no part in it"? Maybe my "proof" is a basic grasp of English, and a grasp of subtext. The "We will not speak of this again" was Varric's idea of what they meant as an apology. So yes, you're going to have to show that not approving doesn't mean disavow.

[Kurogane335]

But Varric doesn't know. He suspects it. There is several possibilities if Varric is right and them "not talking about" it is actually a form of apology :

 

-The Arishok actions were wrong and not a Demand of the Qun.

-The Arishok actions were wrong but a Demand of the Qun.

-The Arishok actions were right, but not the Demand of the Qun he was tasked with.

-The Arishok actions were right and the Demand of the Qun he was tasked with.

 

From those four possibilities, we can infer some other ones, which are based upon :

-Their silence is just them disavowing the Arishok.

-Their silence is them not making excuses to bas, and they don't care about what bas think.

-Their silence is them not making excuses to bas, but is the closest thing to it (and they were probably "made" because of the timing of the Arishok actions).

 

You can combine the 4 + 3 possibilities, and it opens a whole lot of interpretation which are almost all* equally valid when it comes to the facts presented in the games. And those are just what I can think from the top of my head after a really tiring day. I'm sure that if I -or anyone really- devoted my time to really think about it, I could discover other possibilities, and/or develop the ones here in a better way. I hope my state of fatigue will excuse me for remaining vague when it comes to the possibilities themselves, and not the idea that I want to convey.

 

(* The fact that the Arishok is demoted if he return alive to Par Vollen could makes some of those potentialities weaker than others, even if it is also possibly because he returned empty handed since Isabela left with the Tome of Koslun again)

 

Now, if we takes a look at the Viddasala case, it is both more obvious and more ambiguous. More obvious because there is a letter disavowing them (when it seems that for the Qunari, silence could have been sufficient an answer, if the Arishok case, set a precedent). More ambiguous because this Codex only appears if the player have not sided with the Qunari, which indeed is quite suspicious (what a stroke of luck for the Qunari, they just so happens to have a rogue agent just when their plan have failed !). But in the same time, this Codex does not makes sense. If the Dreadnought was left to blow by the Inquisitor, the Qun and the player are not allied, and in fact the Qunari cut all connection with the Inquisition. So why bother answering to Josephine ? Just ignore those particularly unworthy bas, makers of Tal-Vashoth. After all, it is not as if the Qunari where caring about what the South thinks of them. In its state it wouldn't intervene if they switched their might against Tevinter.

 

So, everything is more complex that it seems at first glance (I'll complete my thought quickly, but I must go eating now, sorry from letting my development unfinished for some minutes)

[robertthebard]

But Varric doesn't know. He suspects it. There is several possibilities if Varric is right and them "not talking about" it is actually a form of apology :

That's taken, figuratively, from the horse's mouth, that's what he believes they meant by "We will not speak of this again". But here's the real kicker, you don't know either, but you have a theory, and thus we get this:
 

-The Arishok actions were wrong and not a Demand of the Qun.
-The Arishok actions were wrong but a Demand of the Qun.
-The Arishok actions were right, but not the Demand of the Qun he was tasked with.
-The Arishok actions were right and the Demand of the Qun he was tasked with.

He was tasked with retrieving the book. This is why they didn't "rescue" him in the first couple of years, right? He didn't have the book. So which of these do you suppose is accurate? He did what he needed to do to get the book, we can rationalize it around any way you want, but that's his goal. Once that goal is attained, the surviving Qunari leave. It's mind boggling how anyone can confuse what's going on considering what happened, but again "But my theory..."
 

From those four possibilities, we can infer some other ones, which are based upon :
-Their silence is just them disavowing the Arishok.
-Their silence is them not making excuses to bas, and they don't care about what bas think.
-Their silence is them not making excuses to bas, but is the closest thing to it (and they were probably "made" because of the timing of the Arishok actions).
 
You can combine the 4 + 3 possibilities, and it opens a whole lot of interpretation which are almost all* equally valid when it comes to the facts presented in the games. And those are just what I can think from the top of my head after a really tiring day. I'm sure that if I -or anyone really- devoted my time to really think about it, I could discover other possibilities, and/or develop the ones here in a better way. I hope my state of fatigue will excuse me for remaining vague when it comes to the possibilities themselves, and not the idea that I want to convey.
 
(* The fact that the Arishok is demoted if he return alive to Par Vollen could makes some of those potentialities weaker than others, even if it is also possibly because he returned empty handed since Isabela left with the Tome of Koslun again)
 
Now, if we takes a look at the Viddasala case, it is both more obvious and more ambiguous. More obvious because there is a letter disavowing them (when it seems that for the Qunari, silence could have been sufficient an answer, if the Arishok case, set a precedent). More ambiguous because this Codex only appears if the player have not sided with the Qunari, which indeed is quite suspicious (what a stroke of luck for the Qunari, they just so happens to have a rogue agent just when their plan have failed !). But in the same time, this Codex does not makes sense. If the Dreadnought was left to blow by the Inquisitor, the Qun and the player are not allied, and in fact the Qunari cut all connection with the Inquisition. So why bother answering to Josephine ? Just ignore those particularly unworthy bas, makers of Tal-Vashoth. After all, it is not as if the Qunari where caring about what the South thinks of them. In its state it wouldn't intervene if they switched their might against Tevinter.
 
So, everything is more complex that it seems at first glance (I'll complete my thought quickly, but I must go eating now, sorry from letting my development unfinished for some minutes)

From this, I took away that they disavowed his actions because he failed, and failure isn't a Demand of the Qun. If he had the book and control of Kirkwall you're saying the Qunari would have said "Oops, our bad, we'll re-educate him and you can have your town back", right? It's not like they've invaded and kept lands they took before, *cough*Seheron*cough*. What I don't have is some kind of romantic or romanticized notion about what the Qun is. I have factual data pulled from 3 games, which doesn't even begin to scratch the surface, and surely isn't enough to go crafting theories about how "Every failed operation is a rogue cell because reasons".

[Kurogane335]

You took away that because it is what you believe and you do not abide by the facts. You pretend that the facts support your claims, when they don't. There is nothing proving that his failure was followed by any sort of disavowal. You have a very negative view of the Qun, and you just like to pretend that you haven't and that you have data from the three games. I have the same data, and I reach a totally different conclusion.Ergo. You are not more in the right than me. Pretend that you are and that others are bending the facts to support their claims, as you did, when you do just that yourself is hypocrisy. Just like 90% of the people hating the Qun, I might add.

[robertthebard]

You took away that because it is what you believe and you do not abide by the facts. You pretend that the facts support your claims, when they don't. There is nothing proving that his failure was followed by any sort of disavowal. You have a very negative view of the Qun, and you just like to pretend that you haven't and that you have data from the three games. I have the same data, and I reach a totally different conclusion.Ergo. You are not more in the right than me. Pretend that you are and that others are bending the facts to support their claims, as you did, when you do just that yourself is hypocrisy. Just like 90% of the people hating the Qun, I might add.

How do they not support my claims? I don't have enough information about the Qun to hate it, I just don't have some kind of romanticized notion about what it is, either. I do, however, have enough information to determine that they disavowed both due to complete and utter failure. Hey, he got the book, but look at all the hell he raised with people directly connected to the Chantry, that can, and might make life miserable for us if it's known we supported him 100%. I never did get an explanation for "We did not support his actions" doesn't equate to "We did not support his actions" either, just accused of hating the Qun.

Do tell, however, why it is that they didn't send ships to pick him up sooner? Can you explain how it is that all these different branches of the Qun had representatives in the South, but didn't know? So they're really strict about people adhering to their roles, but they don't supervise these people? They just take it for granted that they're going to perform their duties under the Qun? Wait, if that's the case, why do they have re-educators? Tal Vashoth is only a thing when it's convenient?

[Illegitimus]

The way I interpret the two messages is:

 

Kirkwall:  He exceeded his authority a bit.  We don't hold a grudge that you killed him and consider this a closed issue.

Winter Palace:  We don't really want to go to war with all of Thedas at once, no matter what Viddasala thinks is a good idea.  

[Gold Dragon]

Except that he will side with the rogue Viddasala even if the Chargers are alive via not doing the Storm Coast quest.
 

 

What if the Iron Bull isn't recruited?  Does he still show up?

 

I'm told Varric, Cassandra and Dorian will show up in Trespasser, whatever happened in the main game...

[Dai Grepher]

His further action outside authority required that the previous authority was dead. There is absolutely no resemblance between Loghain's insurrection and the Viddasala acting beyond the knowledge of the Qunari hierarchy.

 

 

 

Operators of the Inquisition (Inquisitor+party), which the Qunari at the time assumed were also agents of Fen'Harel. 

 

Yes it does. 

 

 

 

Yes, "enemy spy, spy outside of the Qun". We already know of two words that have been literally modified the same way in "bas Saarebas" and "Basvaarad". 

 

 

 

 

CSI: Dai Grepher

 

 

 

Or an operation that has sustained heavy losses and casualties in the face of an enemy offense, which is what was happening. They're task was not the invasion, it was to make way for it. 

 

 

 

The note would be as thus:

 

Viddathari Kith: The bas disruption of the Ataashi-asaara must be ended at once. Herah decreases with each-

 

The Dragon's Breath must be complete. Locate and eliminate bas hissra

 

Eliminate agents of Fen'Harel. Time runs out.

 

Okay, but we're not talking about his further actions. We're talking about his rogue actions that went unnoticed by those in authority over him. The point is that any organization can have a member go rogue without a superior member being aware of it. Such was the case with Viddasala and the Triumvirate.

 

Ah, and the party includes Hissrad, right?

 

No it doesn't.

 

Those examples are explained. Bas saarebas is "dangerous thing outside the Qun". Basvaarad is something like, "thing outside the Qun that leads saarebas". At no time does bas change the other word. Meaning, hissrad is not changed from liar to spy by the word bas.

 

Yeah, and if they fail then so too does the alleged invasion. Thus, the alleged invasion depended on Dragon's Breath. So again, why would such an important task be left to one who cannot effectively and efficiently communicate with the Viddathari unit? You say it's because they sustained heavy losses, but the only place Qunari were lost by this point was the elven temples. So you're saying the one issuing commands to Viddathari (human/elven spies under the Qun) was at the elven ruins? Why?
 

That's your interpretation. I respect your opinion, but that doesn't mean you are correct. I believe it goes more like this:

 

Viddathari Kith: The bas disruption of the Ataashi-asaara must be ended at once. Herah decreases with each

 

(Obviously that statement would have been redundant. Time decreases with each passing moment? No duh.)

 

The Dragon's Breath must be complete. Locate and eliminate bas hissra

 

Eliminate agents of Fen'Harel. Time runs out.

[Dai Grepher]

Viddasala outranks Bull under the Ben-Hassrath.  So under the Qun, Bull may have had no choice but to follow her orders, rogue or not.  The Qun doesn't seem very flexible, especially when the members are conditioned to remain in their roles at all costs.  It probably would have required someone who outranked the Viddasala to appear and override her command.  Viddasala was operating far from home, and there was no one who could object to what she was doing.

 

I'm not entirely convinced Par Vollen didn't know, but either way, Qun!Bull was unable to deviate from his role.

 

She is a higher rank, but of a different division. Which means she does not have authority over him.

 

If he knows for a fact that she's rogue, the Qun demands Hissrad follow his legal orders from his own commanding officer in his division. Hissrad should ignore any commands from a rogue agent acting outside the Qun. It's like if a Marine General gave a Marine Private an order to work with a combat ally, and then some Army Lieutenant came along and gave the Marine Private an order to shoot the combat ally, and then the Private receives a letter from the President that states the Army Lieutenant is acting without authorization.

[The Baconer]

Okay, but we're not talking about his further actions. We're talking about his rogue actions that went unnoticed by those in authority over him. The point is that any organization can have a member go rogue without a superior member being aware of it. Such was the case with Viddasala and the Triumvirate.

 

The rogue action that went unnoticed, as in the retreat from Ostagar? This is just trying to compare two separate situations in the most general and unspecific way possible, with no attention paid to context, which in turn makes it quite useless. 

 

 

Ah, and the party includes Hissrad, right?

 

That depends on whether or not the Inquisitor takes Iron Bull with them. It also depends on whether or not Iron Bull is Tal-Vashoth, as he might be participating in the elimination of bas-hissrad himself. 

 

 

No it doesn't.

 

Yep.

 

 

Those examples are explained. Bas saarebas is "dangerous thing outside the Qun". Basvaarad is something like, "thing outside the Qun that leads saarebas". At no time does bas change the other word. Meaning, hissrad is not changed from liar to spy by the word bas.

 

Again, you are clinging to the literal translation over effective/practical meaning of the word in context. "Hissrad" was a designation given due to Iron Bull's ability to deceive and obtain information in doing so. Spying. 

 

 

Yeah, and if they fail then so too does the alleged invasion. 

 

Which it did. Onward to Plan B invasion of Tevinter. 

 

 

So again, why would such an important task be left to one who cannot effectively and efficiently communicate with the Viddathari unit? You say it's because they sustained heavy losses, but the only place Qunari were lost by this point was the elven temples. So you're saying the one issuing commands to Viddathari (human/elven spies under the Qun) was at the elven ruins? Why?

 

At what point in Trespasser is this note found? I can't find any source of it beyond this topic, and can't remember where I would have come across it. 

 

 

That's your interpretation. I respect your opinion, but that doesn't mean you are correct. I believe it goes more like this:

 

Viddathari Kith: The bas disruption of the Ataashi-asaara must be ended at once. Herah decreases with each

 

(Obviously that statement would have been redundant. Time decreases with each passing moment? No duh.)

 

The Dragon's Breath must be complete. Locate and eliminate bas hissra

 

Eliminate agents of Fen'Harel. Time runs out.

 

Ataashi-asaara is Dragon's Breath. "... disruption of the Ataashi-asaara must be ended at once. The Dragon's Breath must be complete." would in turn be redundant. The writer opts for brevity with a simple "Eliminate agents of Fen'Harel. Time runs out."

[Dai Grepher]

Either that or he knows more then we think he knows and he knows that everything is a fabrication and the Vidisaala is acting under orders. 

 

Possible. But in that case a new series of problems arise. Why was he sent back to the Inquisition if the plan was to blow up the palace? Why did Hissrad help the Inquisition foil Dragon's Breath? Why did he help the Inquisition kill Qunari? Why didn't he attack the Inquisitor at any point before this?