657 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

Because if you don't do the quest, he's a Qunari spy, fulfilling his role under the Qun. How is this so complicated for you, and yet you have such an elaborate conspiracy theory-esque scenario that you seem to be trying to keep track of? Is it because it doesn't fit, and so has to be rationalized away?

 

My only point here was that the Chargers living or dying has nothing to do with Bull's choice to side with Viddasala or not.

 

You're the one with the conspiracy theory. You think the Triumvirate approved of Viddasala's plan even when they officially state the exact opposite.
 

[9TailsFox]

My only point here was that the Chargers living or dying has nothing to do with Bull's choice to side with Viddasala or not.

 

You're the one with the conspiracy theory. You think the Triumvirate approved of Viddasala's plan even when they officially state the exact opposite.
 

Yes if someone ask me if I wanted to kill everyone, I will tell true and not lie.

[Dai Grepher]

All part of the cover for the operation.

 

Except Viddasala intercepted the reply letter. So if it was a cover, why didn't she let it be delivered? Why did she crumple it up after reading it?
 

[Dai Grepher]

What if the Iron Bull isn't recruited?  Does he still show up?

 

I don't know, and I won't find out personally for a while yet. I assume he doesn't show up at all, since no line work for him in that case. He can't speak to the Inquisitor with any kind of familiarity. He can't say that it was a good call leaving him behind. He can't even explain why he's there, because the Inquisitor would see him as just another Qunari. But this is just an assumption. Logically, he shouldn't show up since he would have no reason to be at the Winder Palace in the first place. I suspect he would just be recalled and reeducated after failing to infiltrate the Inquisition. Or else assigned to different work.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Yes if someone ask me if I wanted to kill everyone, I will tell true and not lie.

 

I would hope you would tell the truth that you don't want to kill everyone.
 

[robertthebard]

My only point here was that the Chargers living or dying has nothing to do with Bull's choice to side with Viddasala or not.
 
You're the one with the conspiracy theory. You think the Triumvirate approved of Viddasala's plan even when they officially state the exact opposite.

I say you're the one with the conspiracy theory because you believe they didn't. Now, lay out some actual proof to prove your point. The letter isn't proof of anything:

Except Viddasala intercepted the reply letter. So if it was a cover, why didn't she let it be delivered? Why did she crumple it up after reading it?

Have you ever been right in the middle of something and had someone knock on the door? Turns out it's family and you have to hang out for a few hours before you get back to whatever it was?

[Dai Grepher]

The rogue action that went unnoticed, as in the retreat from Ostagar? This is just trying to compare two separate situations in the most general and unspecific way possible, with no attention paid to context, which in turn makes it quite useless. 

 

 

 

That depends on whether or not the Inquisitor takes Iron Bull with them. It also depends on whether or not Iron Bull is Tal-Vashoth, as he might be participating in the elimination of bas-hissrad himself. 

 

 

 

Yep.

 

 

 

Again, you are clinging to the literal translation over effective/practical meaning of the word in context. "Hissrad" was a designation given due to Iron Bull's ability to deceive and obtain information in doing so. Spying. 

 

 

 

Which it did. Onward to Plan B invasion of Tevinter. 

 

 

 

At what point in Trespasser is this note found? I can't find any source of it beyond this topic, and can't remember where I would have come across it. 

 

 

 

Ataashi-asaara is Dragon's Breath. "... disruption of the Ataashi-asaara must be ended at once. The Dragon's Breath must be complete." would in turn be redundant. The writer opts for brevity with a simple "Eliminate agents of Fen'Harel. Time runs out."

 

No, the rogue actions of having almost every Cousland murdered, setting the King up to be slaughtered by darkspawn, and purposely withholding help to ensure the King was slaughtered by darkspawn. There was also poisoning Eamon and making the deal with Uldred, which happened before Ostagar. But this is all beside the point. You know what I'm getting at. People can have hidden agendas and secretly work against those in authority over them without them knowing about it. I have seen you make logical arguments in various other threads Baconer. I know you're an intelligent person capable of logical thinking. I just wonder why it seems to be lapsing on this particular issue.

 

Ah, so you admit that the author of that communiqué wrote an order for the Viddathari Kith to kill Qunari Iron Bull. Yes? Also, how can Bull participate in the elimination of the bas hissrad himself if he is not Viddathari (which the communiqué was directed to), and the communiqué was not sent anyway? And how was he eliminating the agents of Fen'Harel? I only saw him eliminating Qunari. And yes, I understand that him siding with a rogue agent makes more sense if he is not in the party at all the whole time and is left in the dark, but you CAN take him with you throughout the whole mission leading up to that point. So in that case he should well understand that Viddasala was disavowed and wanted for questioning.
 

Nope.

 

I am indeed taking the words for what they literally translate to. You're guessing at the effective/practical meaning and context of the two words combined. There is no evidence that the hissrad title was given to Bull based on his ability to spy. Gatt states the title's meaning, and he gives only one word; "liar".

 

Strange that no one told Viddasala then. She was under the impression that the Qunari would invade by force anyway. But I think attacking Tevinter was always Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, and so on. There was no plan to attack the south at all. In the future? Sure. But not during Trespasser's time frame. And the point is, if they wanted to invade, then why did they trust Dragon's Breath to Viddasala? Why didn't they have the Ariqun oversee all of this? That way every branch of the Ben-Hassrath could be called on to work together, and Viddasala would not have been so misinformed.

 

Communiqué in the Deep Roads is found at the "end" of the Deep Roads level where you find the gattlok primers. After you clear the room out, face toward the chamber with large store of lyrium. To the right of that there are some tables with the note.

 

I don't think it's redundant. The disruption of the operation must be stopped. The operation must be complete. Two different statements.

[robertthebard]

I don't think it's redundant. The disruption of the operation must be stopped. The operation must be complete. Two different statements.

In what way? Why are you trying to stop the disruption of the operation, if it's not to complete the operation? The problem is that in context it's an incomplete statement:

The disruption must be stopped so that the operation can continue.

I suspect, given how this can adversely affect "the theory" that this is deliberate, however.

[The Baconer]

No, the rogue actions of having almost every Cousland murdered, setting the King up to be slaughtered by darkspawn, and purposely withholding help to ensure the King was slaughtered by darkspawn. There was also poisoning Eamon and making the deal with Uldred, which happened before Ostagar. 

 

Loghain did not orchestrate the liquidation of the Couslands. Also, his collusion with Uldred and Jowan did not happen before Ostagar. 

 

 

I have seen you make logical arguments in various other threads Baconer. I know you're an intelligent person capable of logical thinking. I just wonder why it seems to be lapsing on this particular issue.

 

Aha, of course, Dai Grepher designates "logical thinking" as agreeing with Dai Grepher. 

 

"People can have hidden agendas and secretly work against those in authority over them without them knowing about it" is not an extraordinary revelation here, and in fact nobody implied otherwise. The argument lies in the fact that, within this situation, total ignorance on the Qunari's part does not make any sense, nor is it consistent with our knowledge of Qunari society. 

 

 

Ah, so you admit that the author of that communiqué wrote an order for the Viddathari Kith to kill Qunari Iron Bull. Yes? 

 

No, that's actually the opposite of what I said. 

 

 

Also, how can Bull participate in the elimination of the bas hissrad himself if he is not Viddathari (which the communiqué was directed to), and the communiqué was not sent anyway? 

 

The letter was not directed at Iron Bull. Nevertheless, he will be forced to participate anyway when the Viddasala commands him to attack the Inquisitor and their party. 

 

 

And yes, I understand that him siding with a rogue agent makes more sense if he is not in the party at all the whole time and is left in the dark, but you CAN take him with you throughout the whole mission leading up to that point. So in that case he should well understand that Viddasala was disavowed and wanted for questioning.

 

Or he could realize that said disavowal was a ruse and lie to you. You know, since his name is "liar". 

 

 

I am indeed taking the words for what they literally translate to. 

 

Then you are being willfully ignorant, and that's not something I can help you with. 

 

 

Strange that no one told Viddasala then. She was under the impression that the Qunari would invade by force anyway. But I think attacking Tevinter was always Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, and so on. There was no plan to attack the south at all. In the future? Sure. But not during Trespasser's time frame. And the point is, if they wanted to invade, then why did they trust Dragon's Breath to Viddasala? Why didn't they have the Ariqun oversee all of this? That way every branch of the Ben-Hassrath could be called on to work together, and Viddasala would not have been so misinformed.

 

Viddasala's position makes her the best suited to study and navigate the alien magics of the Eluvians. And, of course, who says other members of the hierarchy didn't act as administrators for this operation? We already have separate branches of the Ben-Hassrath working together with members of the Antaam being included on top of that. 

 

 

Communiqué in the Deep Roads is found at the "end" of the Deep Roads level where you find the gattlok primers. After you clear the room out, face toward the chamber with large store of lyrium. To the right of that there are some tables with the note.

 

So, that would be soemone hastily issuing new orders in the face of a new and unforeseen threat to the operation. Solas had just recently activated the defensive magics, which was then followed by the Inquisitor's arrival. 

 

 

I don't think it's redundant. The disruption of the operation must be stopped. The operation must be complete. Two different statements.

 

For the sake of the letter, it is redundant, and possibly confusing for Viddathari who are not fluent in Qunlat. 

[Dai Grepher]

I say you're the one with the conspiracy theory because you believe they didn't. Now, lay out some actual proof to prove your point. The letter isn't proof of anything:

 

So I'm the one with a conspiracy theory because I believe the Triumvirate was not involved in any conspiracy? That accusation makes sense to you?
 

No, the letter proves that Josephine made contact with the Triumvirate while Bull's attempts to make contact with his superiors failed every time. It also proves that Viddasala intercepted the return letter from Par Vollen, was upset by what she read, and crumpled the letter up in anger. I think that's 100% proof that Viddasala was acting without authorization on her own, and she was mad that she was found out.

 

But I also posted more proof than this. She ordered her agents against Hissrad along with the Inquisitor. She was doing multiple shady things at the Darvaarad. She was uninformed, which means she did not have Hissrad's intel. She was feeding Saarebas lyrium.

[Dai Grepher]

In what way? Why are you trying to stop the disruption of the operation, if it's not to complete the operation? The problem is that in context it's an incomplete statement:

The disruption must be stopped so that the operation can continue.

I suspect, given how this can adversely affect "the theory" that this is deliberate, however.

 

It's the same as saying, "The enemy disruption of the operation must be stopped because the operation must be completed." It says the enemy must be stopped and stresses the operation's importance.

 

Not sure what you mean by that. No matter how you slice it, Viddathari were going to be ordered to eliminate the group party Hissrad was a part of, and he is a Qunari.

[robertthebard]

So I'm the one with a conspiracy theory because I believe the Triumvirate was not involved in any conspiracy? That accusation makes sense to you?

I presented it, and you have yet to prove that they had no knowledge of her activities with anything other than "because I said so, and I need it to be true for my theory".
 

No, the letter proves that Josephine made contact with the Triumvirate while Bull's attempts to make contact with his superiors failed every time. It also proves that Viddasala intercepted the return letter from Par Vollen, was upset by what she read, and crumpled the letter up in anger. I think that's 100% proof that Viddasala was acting without authorization on her own, and she was mad that she was found out.

Where is the proof that Bull failed to communicate with his superiors? If Bull is in fact still Qunari, and not Tal Vashoth, he not only communicates, but obeys his superiors, but you claim that is a betrayal of the Qun. Yet another snippet from your theory that has yet to be proven, other than "but I need it to be true for my theory".
 

But I also posted more proof than this. She ordered her agents against Hissrad along with the Inquisitor. She was doing multiple shady things at the Darvaarad. She was uninformed, which means she did not have Hissrad's intel. She was feeding Saarebas lyrium.

...and yet, you have yet to prove that she did anything of this behind her superior's backs, other than, once again, the tried and true "but I need this to be true for my theory".

[robertthebard]

It's the same as saying, "The enemy disruption of the operation must be stopped because the operation must be completed." It says the enemy must be stopped and stresses the operation's importance.
 
Not sure what you mean by that. No matter how you slice it, Viddathari were going to be ordered to eliminate the group party Hissrad was a part of, and he is a Qunari.

In other words "uh, I don't know, but my theory"?

But tell me, if it's not to protect the operation, why must enemy activities that are interfering with it be stopped? So you're saying that nothing we were doing was interfering with the plan?

BTW, since Hissrad is a title, not a name, and it applies to spies in general, as far as we're told, what makes you believe it has to be applied only to IB? Sten was also a title, not a name, and if you roll a Tal Vashoth Inquisitor, they will greet IB as "Sten". OMG, another hole in your theory?

[Dai Grepher]

Loghain did not orchestrate the liquidation of the Couslands. Also, his collusion with Uldred and Jowan did not happen before Ostagar. 

 

 

 

Aha, of course, Dai Grepher designates "logical thinking" as agreeing with Dai Grepher. 

 

"People can have hidden agendas and secretly work against those in authority over them without them knowing about it" is not an extraordinary revelation here, and in fact nobody implied otherwise. The argument lies in the fact that, within this situation, total ignorance on the Qunari's part does not make any sense, nor is it consistent with our knowledge of Qunari society. 

 

 

 

No, that's actually the opposite of what I said. 

 

 

 

The letter was not directed at Iron Bull. Nevertheless, he will be forced to participate anyway when the Viddasala commands him to attack the Inquisitor and their party. 

 

 

 

Or he could realize that said disavowal was a ruse and lie to you. You know, since his name is "liar". 

 

 

 

Then you are being willfully ignorant, and that's not something I can help you with. 

 

 

 

Viddasala's position makes her the best suited to study and navigate the alien magics of the Eluvians. And, of course, who says other members of the hierarchy didn't act as administrators for this operation? We already have separate branches of the Ben-Hassrath working together with members of the Antaam being included on top of that. 

 

 

 

So, that would be soemone hastily issuing new orders in the face of a new and unforeseen threat to the operation. Solas had just recently activated the defensive magics, which was then followed by the Inquisitor's arrival. 

 

 

 

For the sake of the letter, it is redundant, and possibly confusing for Viddathari who are not fluent in Qunlat. 

 

Rendon Howe would not have made such a move unless he knew for sure he would get away with it. Loghain was always his cover. Ostagar was set up to cause Cailan's death, from the intentionally underestimated enemy forces to the purposely unsecured Tower of Ishal.

 

Eamon was in fact poisoned before Cailan died. When you go to Lothering and speak with Ser Donnel he confirms that Eamon fell ill before the king died, and then he wonders out loud if Loghain had that planned too. The knights were sent out by Isolde shortly after Eamon fell ill, and they had been on the hunt for a while before the Wardens arrive in Lothering.

 

Uldred was at the war meeting. He suggested letting the mages' magic be the signal. The reason for this is obvious. He would have merely not sent the signal. And talking to Wynne during The Broken Circle quest does confirm that Uldred and Loghain were in cahoots from the beginning. In fact, one of your dialogue options is to say exactly that. Wynne will agree and say she thinks so as well. In a different option (What did Uldred say?) she speaks of Uldred's proposed alliance with Loghain. She says Loghain promised Uldred that the circle would be granted autonomy if he supported him.

 

And of course proving these things has nothing to do with the overall point. Any organization can have a member that goes rogue without the superiors knowing about it.

 

No, it has nothing to do with you agreeing with me or not, although all of my positions are based on logic. The lapse, I believe, is evident in how you are so insistent that Viddasala being rogue isn't even a possibility.

 

See, this is what I'm talking about. You claim you did not imply otherwise, yet you do exactly this in Viddasala's case, and your reason is that you have never seen an example of a Qunari going rogue and the Qunari's superiors being unaware of it. That doesn't strike you as a lapse in logic? You're saying that you've never seen a Qunari go rogue and deceive the higher-ups, therefore it isn't possible in this situation. Even Hissrad recognizes at least two strange things about Viddasala. He expects her to be smashing every eluvian she finds, not using them. He also scoffs at the claim that she is feeding lyrium to saarebas, since her role is to keep them away from lyrium at all times.

 

You wrote that the order was to kill the Inquisitor + party members. Qunari Bull is a party member.

 

Okay, the communiqué was not directed to him, but then how does he hear about this plan to eliminate agents of Fen'Harel? Remember, the original plan was just to sneak in gattlok, blow it up, and then flood the locations with Ben-Hassrath. There was no knowledge of Fen'Harel or any agents of his until shortly before the Inquisitor goes through the eluvian. So how could Hissrad have heard word about this before the Inquisitor could possibly take him through the eluvian for the first part of the mission? And if he is participating in the elimination of the agents, then why is he... well... not participating in the elimination of the agents until Viddasala issues her order?

 

Why is he forced to attack the Inquisition? And why did Viddasala wait until after Dragon's Breath was foiled to issue her order to Hissrad? In fact he was not compelled to attack the Qunari's proven ally. Not only was the last word from the Triumvirate that the alliance was valued greatly, but Hissrad's last official order was to be a part of the Inquisitor's party so Par Vollen could receive status reports. Viddasala did not wait, she couldn't issue any order to Hissrad, and she knew it. She had no authority over him. It wasn't until she read the letter from the Triumvirate that she despaired and became desperate enough to call a Qunari away from his purpose. She had nothing to lose at that point, as the Triumvirate was now after her. This is true in a Tal-Vashoth Bull world state as well. She attempts to call on a Tal-Vashoth to serve her. Unheard of. So why did she do it? Because in the same way, she had been exposed to the Triumvirate. Her role under the Qun was over as soon as they read the letter from Josephine.

 

Being a liar doesn't mean you can realize what is a lie or not. But for the sake of argument, what was it about the reply letter that made Hissrad think it was a ruse and a lie for the Inquisitor? Was it the fact that it was NOT delivered to the Inquisitor at all and he actually had to go find it? Was it the fact that Viddasala crumpled it up in a fit of rage? Was it the fact that the letter clearly stated the Qunari value the alliance greatly? What is it about the intercepted letter screams "deception" to you?

 

So I'm willfully ignorant for believing a literal translation of Qunlat words instead of your unverifiable interpretation of those words?

 

No, I'd say actually using the eluvians would be better suited to "dangerous actions". Viddasala then should have only been one who studied the magic involved. She certainly should not have been the one leading. Who says there wasn't a coordinated effort? Hissrad, actually. Whether he was on our side at the time or not, he sent reports to his superiors. If there were a collaboration, Viddasala would have known that the Inquisition was not in the service to Fen'Harel. Hissrad can confirm that. Viddasala was mistaken, therefore there was no coordinated effort. As for the codex entry for the Ben-Hassrath states that the Ben-Hassrath and the Antaam frequently cooperate when hunting down Tal-Vashoth. So it is reasonable to conclude that they would work together on this mission. Under Viddasala's direction, they would think they are killing hostile elven spirits (true story), as well as the Inquisitor agent of Fen'Harel who has betrayed the alliance (a lie).

 

Yes, so what? Why was that Qunari, a novice in the common language, in charge of sending an order to Viddathari in Halamshiral? And what did he expect them to do about elven spirits on the other side of the eluvian? And again, the one giving orders to Viddathari couldn't have been on the front lines fighting elven spirits. They would have been far from the battle, in the mines or at the Darvaarad, or even in the Shattered Library. It just seems like a pathetic operation to me to have a Qunari who struggles with the common tongue giving orders to those who mainly understand the common tongue. Not something the Triumvirate would approve of even if they had wanted to invade at that time.

[Dai Grepher]

I presented it, and you have yet to prove that they had no knowledge of her activities with anything other than "because I said so, and I need it to be true for my theory".
 

Where is the proof that Bull failed to communicate with his superiors? If Bull is in fact still Qunari, and not Tal Vashoth, he not only communicates, but obeys his superiors, but you claim that is a betrayal of the Qun. Yet another snippet from your theory that has yet to be proven, other than "but I need it to be true for my theory".
 

...and yet, you have yet to prove that she did anything of this behind her superior's backs, other than, once again, the tried and true "but I need this to be true for my theory".

 

I proved it with the reply letter to Josephine. Also, there was no invasion force ready to sweep the south. You have provided no evidence that they knew of Viddasala's actions.

 

Because Viddasala erroneously thought the Inquisitor was working with Fen'Harel. Had Bull's letters reached his superiors, and they were working with Viddasala, then she would have known the truth. Instead, Viddasala was intercepting and disregarding Bull's letters. Or, if she did read them, she must have thought Bull was ignorant of the fact that the Agent of Fen'Harel was Solas. Of course, Bull was ignorant of that fact, but that's neither here nor there. Bull knew that Solas had left the Inquisition after the final battle with Corypheus, and he knew the Inquisitor had no idea what was going on with the Qunari and the elven spirits. So he knew the Inquisitor had nothing to do with whatever Solas was doing. But in Viddasala's eyes, Bull was just blind to the "facts" only she could see. Again, if the Ben-Hassrath had been working with her officially, then she would have seen his reports and trusted them as legitimate, in which case she would know that the Inquisitor was not working with Solas. This proves there was no communication between Viddasala and Bull's superiors. In fact, Viddasala was preventing Bull's letters from reaching them because that would mean she would be exposed to the Ariqun, who would then send for her immediate capture. That also explains why Josephine's letter got through. Viddasala and her agents were so busy blocking Bull's attempts that they failed to consider that Josephine had her own special contacts and couriers who could get word to Par Vollen.

 

Bull's betrayal of the Qun is in the fact that he obeyed Viddasala's order even after knowing that the Triumvirate was made aware of her actions and declared that she was acting without authorization. Also the fact that she does not have any authority over Bull, yet he still obeyed her and attacked the stated ally of the Qunari. His last official order was to stay planted inside the Inquisition. He failed to do so, all because an obvious rogue agent gave him an order he was not obligated to follow even if she hadn't been rogue.

 

Her superiors would never authorize her to bring red lyrium into Qunari lands. Two years before that they sent a dreadnaught to the Storm Coast specifically to prevent red lyrium from reaching other lands. Jerrak in the Deep Roads also confirms that Viddasala has left her purpose. That is why he tries to stop her, as a loyal follower of the Qun.

 

So I have proven this time and again.

[Dai Grepher]

In other words "uh, I don't know, but my theory"?

But tell me, if it's not to protect the operation, why must enemy activities that are interfering with it be stopped? So you're saying that nothing we were doing was interfering with the plan?

BTW, since Hissrad is a title, not a name, and it applies to spies in general, as far as we're told, what makes you believe it has to be applied only to IB? Sten was also a title, not a name, and if you roll a Tal Vashoth Inquisitor, they will greet IB as "Sten". OMG, another hole in your theory?

 

What? I just explained to you that the communiqué made sense as written.

 

No. Not sure where you got that from. My position is that the author of the communiqué was going to send a written order to the Viddathari spies in Halamshiral. The order first stated to kill Hissrad, whom the author called bas so that the Viddathari would think he was outside the Qun. But then this was crossed out and changed to locating and eliminating those in the Inquisitor's party in general. That way there is no direct order to kill Hissrad (who is a loyal Qunari) because if such an order were found, it would prove that the Dragon's Breath agents are acting against the Qun by killing a loyal Qunari (plus they might disobey the order to kill a fellow follower of the Qun), but if they happen to kill him by "mistake" under a more general order, fine. If they don't, then Viddasala can always try to use him later. As for stopping interference in the operation, the elven spirits first attacked the rogue agents. Viddasala assumed those spirits were helping the Inquisition, and that the Inquisitor was an agent of Fen'Harel. So in her eyes, the elven spirits' disruption was the Inquisition's disruption.

 

Because "Hissrad" was crossed out and then changed to "agents of Fen'Harel". So it is talking about the Inquisitor's party, which Bull was a part of. It does not apply to spies in general. It means "liar", not "spy". Tallis is a spy too, but she isn't called "Hissrad".

 

No, it's not a hole in my theory. It's completely irrelevant to my theory. Someone who is not Qunari addresses Bull with a title that doesn't apply to him, and you think that somehow refutes me?

[SweetTeaholic]

Um, you guys realise this argument is going around in circles right? At this point let everyone agree to disagree and let's end it.

[Ariella]

Um, you guys realise this argument is going around in circles right? At this point let everyone agree to disagree and let's end it.

This is BSN, the arguments never end

[The Baconer]

See, this is what I'm talking about. You claim you did not imply otherwise, yet you do exactly this in Viddasala's case, and your reason is that you have never seen an example of a Qunari going rogue and the Qunari's superiors being unaware of it. That doesn't strike you as a lapse in logic? You're saying that you've never seen a Qunari go rogue and deceive the higher-ups, therefore it isn't possible in this situation.

 

That was never my reason. The reason was that, in this situation with so many people and resources supporting such a large operation, there is no way the Viddasala could have been conducting her plans for months without the Qunari having any way of knowing. 

 

 

You wrote that the order was to kill the Inquisitor + party members. Qunari Bull is a party member.

 

If the Viddathari were not aware of his status as a sleeper agent, that would include him as well, yes. But it was not targeting Bull in specific. 

 

 

Okay, the communiqué was not directed to him, but then how does he hear about this plan to eliminate agents of Fen'Harel? Remember, the original plan was just to sneak in gattlok, blow it up, and then flood the locations with Ben-Hassrath. There was no knowledge of Fen'Harel or any agents of his until shortly before the Inquisitor goes through the eluvian. So how could Hissrad have heard word about this before the Inquisitor could possibly take him through the eluvian for the first part of the mission? And if he is participating in the elimination of the agents, then why is he... well... not participating in the elimination of the agents until Viddasala issues her order?

 

The Inquisition had been designated Agents of Fen'Harel, and they were always meant to die with the completion of Dragon's Breath. Bull being ordered into combat with the Inquisitor is his participation. I never said he received or even cared about the note for Viddathari. 

 

 

Why is he forced to attack the Inquisition? And why did Viddasala wait until after Dragon's Breath was foiled to issue her order to Hissrad? In fact he was not compelled to attack the Qunari's proven ally. Not only was the last word from the Triumvirate that the alliance was valued greatly, but Hissrad's last official order was to be a part of the Inquisitor's party so Par Vollen could receive status reports. Viddasala did not wait, she couldn't issue any order to Hissrad, and she knew it. She had no authority over him. It wasn't until she read the letter from the Triumvirate that she despaired and became desperate enough to call a Qunari away from his purpose. She had nothing to lose at that point, as the Triumvirate was now after her. This is true in a Tal-Vashoth Bull world state as well. She attempts to call on a Tal-Vashoth to serve her. Unheard of. So why did she do it? Because in the same way, she had been exposed to the Triumvirate. Her role under the Qun was over as soon as they read the letter from Josephine.

 

What do you mean "forced"? He was given orders and expected to follow through, like every other Qunari. His position as a sleeper agent was more valuable than his potential as an assassin, as attacking the Inquisitor is a fool's errand and their death was to be otherwise guaranteed by the Gaatlok detonation or the Anchor's decay. 

 

Of course, when the Inquisitor deals the Viddasala's operation a critical blow, she is pressed into having him attack the Inquisitor within the confines of the Darvaarad which most favored a Qunari attack. Of course, the Inquisitor massacres all Qunari at the Darvaarad despite the disadvantage, which is exactly why they didn't want Iron Bull to be used in that capacity at all. 

 

 

Being a liar doesn't mean you can realize what is a lie or not. But for the sake of argument, what was it about the reply letter that made Hissrad think it was a ruse and a lie for the Inquisitor? 

 

The knowledge that the Qunari were already aware of what was going on. 

 

 

So I'm willfully ignorant for believing a literal translation of Qunlat words instead of your unverifiable interpretation of those words?

 

Absolutely. 

 

 

Who says there wasn't a coordinated effort? Hissrad, actually. Whether he was on our side at the time or not, he sent reports to his superiors. If there were a collaboration, Viddasala would have known that the Inquisition was not in the service to Fen'Harel. Hissrad can confirm that. 

 

Yes, [Liar] tells us that he sent reports to his superiors, the same [Liar] that we know is a spy for the Enemy, the same [Liar] who will betray you, tracking you down even if he isn't in the active party. We should take him at his word because...?

 

As for the Inquisition not being in service to Fen'Harel, the truth is it was guided by Fen'Harel at ever step, with or without our knowledge. In addition, if Bull is committed to the plan of spreading the Qun to the south it doesn't really matter whether or not the Inquisitor is a genuine agent of Fen'Harel. The organization would have to be dealt with, one way or another. 

 

 

As for the codex entry for the Ben-Hassrath states that the Ben-Hassrath and the Antaam frequently cooperate when hunting down Tal-Vashoth. So it is reasonable to conclude that they would work together on this mission. they would think they are killing hostile elven spirits (true story), as well as the Inquisitor agent of Fen'Harel who has betrayed the alliance (a lie).

 

It is not, however, reasonable to conclude that the Antaam would lend manpower while being wholly in the dark. Also, the elven spirits had only appeared a few hours before the Inquisitor first entered the Eluvian. 

 

 

Yes, so what? Why was that Qunari, a novice in the common language, in charge of sending an order to Viddathari in Halamshiral? And what did he expect them to do about elven spirits on the other side of the eluvian? And again, the one giving orders to Viddathari couldn't have been on the front lines fighting elven spirits. They would have been far from the battle, in the mines or at the Darvaarad, or even in the Shattered Library. It just seems like a pathetic operation to me to have a Qunari who struggles with the common tongue giving orders to those who mainly understand the common tongue. Not something the Triumvirate would approve of even if they had wanted to invade at that time.

 

If the note was in the Deep Roads, it would likely be for those going into the Deep Roads to take Gaatlok back to Halamshiral. Again, note that the elven spirits were a recent occurrence, as part of Solas' greater sabotage. The writer may not have been aware they were active, or they might have even been the reason why that writer was tasked with penning the letter as opposed to someone else better educated in the common tongue. 

[Dai Grepher]

That was never my reason. The reason was that, in this situation with so many people and resources supporting such a large operation, there is no way the Viddasala could have been conducting her plans for months without the Qunari having any way of knowing. 

 

 

 

If the Viddathari were not aware of his status as a sleeper agent, that would include him as well, yes. But it was not targeting Bull in specific. 

 

 

 

The Inquisition had been designated Agents of Fen'Harel, and they were always meant to die with the completion of Dragon's Breath. Bull being ordered into combat with the Inquisitor is his participation. I never said he received or even cared about the note for Viddathari. 

 

 

 

What do you mean "forced"? He was given orders and expected to follow through, like every other Qunari. His position as a sleeper agent was more valuable than his potential as an assassin, as attacking the Inquisitor is a fool's errand and their death was to be otherwise guaranteed by the Gaatlok detonation or the Anchor's decay. 

 

Of course, when the Inquisitor deals the Viddasala's operation a critical blow, she is pressed into having him attack the Inquisitor within the confines of the Darvaarad which most favored a Qunari attack. Of course, the Inquisitor massacres all Qunari at the Darvaarad despite the disadvantage, which is exactly why they didn't want Iron Bull to be used in that capacity at all. 

 

 

 

The knowledge that the Qunari were already aware of what was going on. 

 

 

 

Absolutely. 

 

 

 

Yes, [Liar] tells us that he sent reports to his superiors, the same [Liar] that we know is a spy for the Enemy, the same [Liar] who will betray you, tracking you down even if he isn't in the active party. We should take him at his word because...?

 

As for the Inquisition not being in service to Fen'Harel, the truth is it was guided by Fen'Harel at ever step, with or without our knowledge. In addition, if Bull is committed to the plan of spreading the Qun to the south it doesn't really matter whether or not the Inquisitor is a genuine agent of Fen'Harel. The organization would have to be dealt with, one way or another. 

 

 

 

It is not, however, reasonable to conclude that the Antaam would lend manpower while being wholly in the dark. Also, the elven spirits had only appeared a few hours before the Inquisitor first entered the Eluvian. 

 

 

 

If the note was in the Deep Roads, it would likely be for those going into the Deep Roads to take Gaatlok back to Halamshiral. Again, note that the elven spirits were a recent occurrence, as part of Solas' greater sabotage. The writer may not have been aware they were active, or they might have even been the reason why that writer was tasked with penning the letter as opposed to someone else better educated in the common tongue. 

 

Okay, but you can't even admit that it was possible, even if only slightly? What if I were to prove that it was possible for Viddasala to do what she did without anyone above her knowing about it?
 

Right, not targeting him specifically (since he was crossed out in the letter), but "agents of Fen'Harel" included him by association. So we agree that even Hissrad was a target along with everyone else in the party. That is proof that Viddasala was rogue. She and her agents had no problem killing a loyal member of the Qun.

 

I know Bull didn't receive the letter, we're not sure if the Viddathari even received it, but my question is when was Hissrad first told that the Inquisition was the enemy and that they needed to be eliminated? If this order first came at the Darvaarad when Viddasala gave her order, then I say Hissrad should have known by that point that Viddasala was rogue, since he was in the dark the whole time and knew nothing of the plan. However, if Hissrad knew about the plan the whole time, as in, before he even arrived at Halamshiral, then the question is why he did not try to kill the Inquisitor before this, especially when it really mattered? Instead he just helps the Inquisitor foil Dragon's Breath, and then attacks him after the plan is foiled, giving up his position as a mole. That makes no sense.

 

I agree that his position as a sleeper agent was far more valuable than as an assassin, which is why it makes no sense to turn him into an assassin after Dragon's Breath failed. At that point the Qunari would need Hissrad on the inside of the Inquisition in order to do damage control and get more information on what the Inquisition planned to do as a response. Hissrad attacking the Inquisitor only made sense when Dragon's Breath still had a chance of succeeding. That chance diminished every second after that initial Qunari came through the eluvian. Yet Hissrad, who you say knew the plan all along, actually helped the Inquisitor foil said plan. Then after the plan was foiled, abandoned his own purpose just to throw his life away because a failed Viddasala told him to. That makes no sense. As a side point, even if Hissrad knew the plan all along, I still think he should have disregarded Viddasala's order knowing that she would be disavowed for her failure. Hissrad was loyal, but not blindly loyal. He knew how to bend the rules without breaking them, and he knew that the Triumvirate would not punish him for disregarding the order. Also, they didn't know about the anchor decay until after Dragon's Breath failed.

 

No, the Shattered Library was the best place to have Hissrad attack the Inquisitor. The Qunari had more numbers, they had edges to knock the Inquisitor off of, and this was before Dragon's Breath was a complete bust. You admit they didn't want Bull used like that at all, but then why did Viddasala do that? Why did they have Bull kill Qunari instead? Why did they send him back to the Inquisition at all for that matter?

 

And the crumple marks on the reply letter? And the fact it was in Viddasala's possession instead of Josephine's (thus defeating the purpose of the ruse)? Did he just ignore these facts? Or was this all part of the ruse as well, like they expected the Inquisitor to find this after surviving the Shattered Library and somehow finding the Darvaarad? And again, if Hissrad knew the whole time, why didn't he try to stop the Inquisitor from foiling Dragon's Breath, and if it was to be a mole, why didn't he remain a mole after Dragon's Breath was foiled? It can't be both. Either he wanted to protect the operation, or he wanted to protect his purpose. As it stands, he helped foil the mission and he shirked his role as a sleeper agent. Double fail.

 

So then... I'm willfully ignorant for not accepting your opinion over the canon?

 

I know he's a liar, and thanks for admitting hissrad means liar finally, but Leliana is aware of everything Hissrad sends out. So we know for a fact that he sent letters to his contacts. Plus, this was his true role, to send information to his superiors. So at least one of his reports would have confirmed that the Inquisitor was not working with Fen'Harel or the elven spirits. And if Hissrad's contacts were indeed working with Viddasala, then she would have learned this from the letters and thus would not have been surprised to learn that *gasp* the Inquisitor really wasn't working with the agent of Fen'Harel.

 

And no, Solas did not guide the Inquisition at all. Even Solas admits that. "I gave no orders." All he did was stop the mark from killing the Herald, and show him Skyhold. That's it. And it isn't even like they needed Skyhold specifically. Or if you're referring to Trespasser, no one knew why the dying Qunari showed up in the palace, and no one knew the soldier who caught the elven servant delivering the gaatlok was an agent of Fen'Harel.

 

I agree that the Inquisitor being an agent or not doesn't matter to spreading the Qun. My point is that Viddasala thought the Inquisitor was an agent when he was not. Which means she was out of the Ben-Hassrath loop of information. Which means she was a rogue agent. Heck, she even claimed that Solas founded the Inquisition. How can you get any less informed than that?

 

But they may not have known they were in the dark. Viddasala may have lied to them about what their mission entailed. As long as they believed her, they would continue to do as she instructed. At least one Shock Trooper had the plan of attack on Halamshiral, but the note doesn't say why the palace was being attacked. Who knows what misinformation Viddasala gave the troops.

 

I understand, but I just find it odd that this "official" Qunari invasion plan is not being overseen by those with more knowledge and skill. Almost as if they did not have that many skilled agents to use in the first place. Hmmm. That reminds me of a note in the Darvaarad about someone who keeps getting the new gaatlok mixture wrong. Sorry, it just seems like a shoddy operation, not a well coordinated strike. The timing also seems odd. The Qunari have not even been able to topple Tevinter, and they are just going to divide their forces and resources by getting bogged down in the south? That's insanity. The only way it works is if they can take every nation in the south completely and simultaneously. And they would have to do all of this with ground forces alone. No dreadnaughts, no siege equipment, no nothing. Just some explosives, troops, and Saarebas (risky) against what would then be united nations with templars and unbound mages (like Tevinter). It isn't even like they could take just one or two nations, because any attack would be a violation of the Llomerryn Accords, and then all the other nations would turn on the Qunari. So it would be all or nothing. You really think this was the Triumvirate's plan when they can't even take down Tevinter?

[ZerebusPrime]

The way I see it, how the Qunari treat the Chargers during Bull's loyalty mission is a microcosm for how they will treat any bas assets.  While you're useful, you will be put to use.  If using you will get you killed so that the real Qunari can complete real Qunari missions, then the Qunari will not hesitate to let you get yourself killed.  You are expendable compared to the Demands of the Qun.

[The Baconer]

Okay, but you can't even admit that it was possible, even if only slightly? 
 

Right, not targeting him specifically (since he was crossed out in the letter), but "agents of Fen'Harel" included him by association. So we agree that even Hissrad was a target along with everyone else in the party. 

 

With the breadth of the operation and the context in which it was executed, no. 

 

No. 

 

 

I know Bull didn't receive the letter, we're not sure if the Viddathari even received it, but my question is when was Hissrad first told that the Inquisition was the enemy and that they needed to be eliminated? If this order first came at the Darvaarad when Viddasala gave her order, then I say Hissrad should have known by that point that Viddasala was rogue, since he was in the dark the whole time and knew nothing of the plan. However, if Hissrad knew about the plan the whole time, as in, before he even arrived at Halamshiral, then the question is why he did not try to kill the Inquisitor before this, especially when it really mattered? Instead he just helps the Inquisitor foil Dragon's Breath, and then attacks him after the plan is foiled, giving up his position as a mole. That makes no sense.

 

I agree that his position as a sleeper agent was far more valuable than as an assassin, which is why it makes no sense to turn him into an assassin after Dragon's Breath failed. At that point the Qunari would need Hissrad on the inside of the Inquisition in order to do damage control and get more information on what the Inquisition planned to do as a response. Hissrad attacking the Inquisitor only made sense when Dragon's Breath still had a chance of succeeding. That chance diminished every second after that initial Qunari came through the eluvian. Yet Hissrad, who you say knew the plan all along, actually helped the Inquisitor foil said plan. Then after the plan was foiled, abandoned his own purpose just to throw his life away because a failed Viddasala told him to. That makes no sense. As a side point, even if Hissrad knew the plan all along, I still think he should have disregarded Viddasala's order knowing that she would be disavowed for her failure. Hissrad was loyal, but not blindly loyal. He knew how to bend the rules without breaking them, and he knew that the Triumvirate would not punish him for disregarding the order. Also, they didn't know about the anchor decay until after Dragon's Breath failed.

 

As I said, Bull was not counted on being able to kill the Inquisitor. By the time the party reaches the Darvaarad, the Qunari detachment is conducting a last-ditch effort: Eliminating the agents of Fen'Harel that are responsible for the failure of Dragon's Breath (Solas, the Inquisitor) before they can inflict greater harm upon Thedas, with the ambush at the Darvaarad being part of this. It was to assure the Qunari the greatest possible advantage in putting down the Inquisitor. It was not enough. 

 

 

No, the Shattered Library was the best place to have Hissrad attack the Inquisitor. The Qunari had more numbers, they had edges to knock the Inquisitor off of, and this was before Dragon's Breath was a complete bust. You admit they didn't want Bull used like that at all, but then why did Viddasala do that? Why did they have Bull kill Qunari instead? Why did they send him back to the Inquisition at all for that matter?

 

Whether or not Bull actively kills Qunari depends entirely on the Inquisitor bringing him along, which Bull is not going to refuse given his purpose as a spy. 

 

As for returning him to the Inquisition... why not? He's a spy, and trusted well enough by the Inquisitor before his betrayal. 

 

 

And the crumple marks on the reply letter? And the fact it was in Viddasala's possession instead of Josephine's (thus defeating the purpose of the ruse)? Did he just ignore these facts?

 

Viddasala had ****ed up, the south was not to be aware of Dragon's Breath until the Gaatlok was triggered. The Qunari were not supposed to take heat while Thedas was in a position to move against them. 

 

 

So then... I'm willfully ignorant for not accepting your opinion over the canon?

 

For not accepting the mechanics of language, yes. 

 

 

I know he's a liar, and thanks for admitting hissrad means liar finally, but Leliana is aware of everything Hissrad sends out. 

 

I never said it didn't mean liar. It just also means spy with regards to Bull's assignment and the Agents of Fen'Harel. 

 

As for Leliana... by Trespasser, it's quite apparent that she's painfully unaware of a good number of things. 

 

 

And no, Solas did not guide the Inquisition at all. Even Solas admits that. "I gave no orders." All he did was stop the mark from killing the Herald, and show him Skyhold. That's it. And it isn't even like they needed Skyhold specifically. Or if you're referring to Trespasser, no one knew why the dying Qunari showed up in the palace, and no one knew the soldier who caught the elven servant delivering the gaatlok was an agent of Fen'Harel.

 

"Guide" is not synonymous with order and/or enforce. He pushed the Inquisitor in the direction that suited his purposes, even when those purposes were mutually beneficial on occasion. We are just lucky that he was unable to recover the Orb. 

 

Regarding the dead Qunari, the Viddasala was aware that it was Solas' doing. To that end, we've been an unwitting agent, all the way up to Trespasser. 

 

 

I understand, but I just find it odd that this "official" Qunari invasion plan is not being overseen by those with more knowledge and skill. Almost as if they did not have that many skilled agents to use in the first place. Hmmm. That reminds me of a note in the Darvaarad about someone who keeps getting the new gaatlok mixture wrong. Sorry, it just seems like a shoddy operation, not a well coordinated strike. The timing also seems odd. The Qunari have not even been able to topple Tevinter, and they are just going to divide their forces and resources by getting bogged down in the south? That's insanity. The only way it works is if they can take every nation in the south completely and simultaneously. And they would have to do all of this with ground forces alone. No dreadnaughts, no siege equipment, no nothing. Just some explosives, troops, and Saarebas (risky) against what would then be united nations with templars and unbound mages (like Tevinter). It isn't even like they could take just one or two nations, because any attack would be a violation of the Llomerryn Accords, and then all the other nations would turn on the Qunari. So it would be all or nothing. You really think this was the Triumvirate's plan when they can't even take down Tevinter?

 

The monarchs, the most prominent noble houses, and the core the Chantry would have been vaporized. By the time the kingdoms could actually mount something resembling an organized response on an individual basis, the Qunari's position in the south would be well-established, with them being able to conquer what's left in the conventional fashion. They've gone to war with all of mainland Thedas before, and the bas were even in better shape back then. 

 

In all honesty, Thedas should be on the offensive regardless of what the Qunari say. Even in the event that the Viddasala was a rogue agent, it shouldn't matter, given the damage it would have caused due to their neglect. But the Qunari know that nobody wants to commit to a war with them, so they're free to whip out any bull**** excuse they want, which they do. 

[Ariella]

The way I see it, how the Qunari treat the Chargers during Bull's loyalty mission is a microcosm for how they will treat any bas assets.  While you're useful, you will be put to use.  If using you will get you killed so that the real Qunari can complete real Qunari missions, then the Qunari will not hesitate to let you get yourself killed.  You are expendable compared to the Demands of the Qun.

I'll admit I head canoned the quest a little because the objective makes little sense. Taking out one ship? They'll move their operations somewhere else. Finding the source makes more sense, but they take a single ship. The mission doesn't even take out any real support infrastructure. It's a really crappy plan, unless it's not the real plan. Unless it's a test to see if Bull went native.

As I said, it's head canon only.

[Dai Grepher]

With the breadth of the operation and the context in which it was executed, no. 

 

No. 

 

 

 

As I said, Bull was not counted on being able to kill the Inquisitor. By the time the party reaches the Darvaarad, the Qunari detachment is conducting a last-ditch effort: Eliminating the agents of Fen'Harel that are responsible for the failure of Dragon's Breath (Solas, the Inquisitor) before they can inflict greater harm upon Thedas, with the ambush at the Darvaarad being part of this. It was to assure the Qunari the greatest possible advantage in putting down the Inquisitor. It was not enough. 

 

 

 

Whether or not Bull actively kills Qunari depends entirely on the Inquisitor bringing him along, which Bull is not going to refuse given his purpose as a spy. 

 

As for returning him to the Inquisition... why not? He's a spy, and trusted well enough by the Inquisitor before his betrayal. 

 

 

 

Viddasala had ****ed up, the south was not to be aware of Dragon's Breath until the Gaatlok was triggered. The Qunari were not supposed to take heat while Thedas was in a position to move against them. 

 

 

 

For not accepting the mechanics of language, yes. 

 

 

 

I never said it didn't mean liar. It just also means spy with regards to Bull's assignment and the Agents of Fen'Harel. 

 

As for Leliana... by Trespasser, it's quite apparent that she's painfully unaware of a good number of things. 

 

 

 

"Guide" is not synonymous with order and/or enforce. He pushed the Inquisitor in the direction that suited his purposes, even when those purposes were mutually beneficial on occasion. We are just lucky that he was unable to recover the Orb. 

 

Regarding the dead Qunari, the Viddasala was aware that it was Solas' doing. To that end, we've been an unwitting agent, all the way up to Trespasser. 

 

 

 

The monarchs, the most prominent noble houses, and the core the Chantry would have been vaporized. By the time the kingdoms could actually mount something resembling an organized response on an individual basis, the Qunari's position in the south would be well-established, with them being able to conquer what's left in the conventional fashion. They've gone to war with all of mainland Thedas before, and the bas were even in better shape back then. 

 

In all honesty, Thedas should be on the offensive regardless of what the Qunari say. Even in the event that the Viddasala was a rogue agent, it shouldn't matter, given the damage it would have caused due to their neglect. But the Qunari know that nobody wants to commit to a war with them, so they're free to whip out any bull**** excuse they want, which they do. 

 

Okay then, let me ask you this. If you think it's so impossible that the Triumvirate did not authorize this "grand" scheme, then why does Trespasser end on the note that the Qunari disavowed Viddasala and continued the alliance with the Inquisition or the Chantry as if nothing happened? They even ask the Chantry for help in taking down Tevinter.

 

No? Then why did the Qunari try to kill Hissrad along with the other members of the party?

 

If they couldn't count on Hissrad to kill the Inquisitor in the Vir Dirthara, when Qunari numbers were stronger and Ataashi-asaara still had a chance of succeeding, then logically they couldn't count on him in the Darvaarad either, when the plan had already failed, when their numbers were fewer, and the Qunari would need Hissrad to remain a mole and assist with any contingency plan. This also means Hissrad would logically disregard Viddasala's desperate order, and continue his own role as a spy. But because Hissrad abandoned that role, now all those Qunari are dead, and the Triumvirate has no clue as to what Solas is or what he plans to do. And you call this a last-ditch effort, but Viddasala did not use her full forces on the Inquisitor anyway. So it was hardly that. Using Hissrad as an enemy against the Inquisitor would make no difference at all. I think Viddasala was just hoping to get rid of one member within the Inquisition, even if it was a Qunari.

 

Yeah, but the Inquisitor can bring him along, and Hissrad even insists on going. So he wanted to go kill his own people? Of course Hissrad should refuse to kill Qunari if he's a loyal Qunari and they are loyal Qunari. Otherwise, why not let the dreadnaught get blown up? Who cares? He's a spy. That's more important than a hundred Qunari, right? The problem here is that you are trying to have it both ways, but you can't. Either he's a spy and needs to stick with the Inquisitor, or he's an agent of the Dragon's Breath mission and needs to ensure its success no matter the cost. As you have it now, he helped ruin the mission and did nothing to stop the Inquisition from doing so, then gave up his position as a spy for no reason.

 

Why return him to the Inquisition if the plan is to just blow everyone up? It isn't like he was there to help the spies blow people up. He wasn't there to gather information on the proceedings. And the Qunari know about Cole's mindreading ability. Having Hissrad there and knowledgeable of what will happen is nothing but a risk to the mission, especially when he serves no purpose. Under your theory, the Triumvirate doesn't care what the council does, they are to be blown up regardless. So Hissrad has no reason to be there at all, not to gather information, and according to you, not to be an assassin either.

 

So what? That doesn't explain why Viddasala intercepted it, crumpled it up, or failed to send it to where it was supposed to go. She already knew she messed up. Seeing a "deceptive" letter about it from the Triumvirate shouldn't anger her, and she certainly shouldn't ball it up and defy the Triumvirate's wish that it reach the Inquisition and "deceive" them into thinking it's an unsanctioned operation.

 

But is the mechanics of language, or just something you made up to protect your own theory?

 

It doesn't mean spy. Just like Sten doesn't mean swordfighter. A hissrad will spy, just like a sten will swordfight.

 

Yes, Leliana sux. She has suxed in her role since DA2 actually. But my point stands. Josephine's letter confirms that Hissrad sent letters to his superiors, and Leliana also confirms that. My point is that Hissrad, being knowledgeable of Dragon's Breath, still would have sent at least one letter that Leliana would think explains how the Inquisition is not involved with the elven spirits or any agent of Fen'Harel, and in that letter Hissrad would correctly inform his superiors that, "Yeah, they really don't know what's going on with these elven spirits." In which case, Viddasala would not have kept thinking they were agents of Fen'Harel.

 

Okay, well now you're just making irrelevant statements. Solas didn't guide anything, and the Qunari had no idea that Solas was helping the Inquisition during Trespasser. Viddasala merely assumed he was because the spirits were hindering their plans and now the Inquisition was suddenly involved. When she found out it was Solas, she just assumed the Inquisition was working for him. She had zero intel, and that means she was acting without access to the Ben-Hassrath's supply of information.

 

Viddasala didn't know about the dead Qunari being Solas' doing. She just assumed it was since he was the only one there at the time. For all she knew the Qunari stumbled through that eluvian by mistake. Still doesn't get around the fact that Hissrad would have reported the truth that Solas left the Inquisition and the Inquisition was not working with him.

 

Eh, I don't know about that. Consider the most difficult scenario they would face. Even in Ferelden alone, they would have to get Anora, a Hero King Cousland whose location is unknown, Fergus, Eamon (who is still around even if really old), perhaps Nathaniel Howe depending on his story and if he controls Amaranthine, then a few dozen powerful arls and banns, and even then they would still have to combat all the armies of those banns which would simply rally behind their captains. Like when Bann Connobar was slain by Flemeth, Sarim Cousland simply took over the lands and title because she was the captain of Highever's guards. And even if the Qunari could defeat those forces, there would still be plenty of mercenary bands and bandits to deal with. Ferelden citizens are also notorious for their rebellious nature.

 

The Qunari would face similar resistance in Orlais. Multiple lords to hit, many Chevaliers to fight, many rebellious elves, and even if they were to get Celene, they would still have Gaspard to deal with, and if they got him, the Council of Heralds would have to all be eliminated before they could elect a new ruler.

 

Nevarra, with their undead magic and dragon slaying warriors? And what of their king? Sure he's old and easily exploded, but there are like a hundred heirs in line for the throne.

 

Antiva? That country is run by The Crows, which are divided into different groups, all of which are great at remaining hidden and secretive.

 

And don't even get me started on the Free Marches. I don't think there is enough gaatlok in Par Vollen to destroy every head of state in the Free Marches.

 

And you think this can all be done simultaneously?

 

Really, the only country the Qunari would be able to take is Rivain, since they already have a foothold there. But even here they would have to deal with all the hedge mages who like to summon spirits to possess them.

 

Then there is of course the Chantry and Inquisition. My Divine is Vivienne, who can survive a mountain of exploding gaatlok barrels using Fade Step, Fade Cloak, Barrier, and Guardian Spirit, and has Resurgence just in case. My Inquisitor also has all of these, with the exception of KE abilities. And even if the Divine or Inquisitor were to die, the Qunari would still have to kill Cassandra and Leliana somehow as they could fill either role well enough to declare another exalted march. I think they would also have to kill Thom Rainier before he can contact the Grey Wardens about the situation, which is no small task.

 

All this from a people that can't even beat some Vints.

 

Okay, the south should be on the offensive regardless, so then why aren't they? Why do they buy the excuse and move on? I don't think one rogue agent is reason to go to war. As for the damage it would have done, maybe that's a factor in the south's decision not hold the Qunari accountable. If the damage it would have done was miniscule and the plan would not have worked, then maybe it would be clear for them to see that this really was one rogue agent with a foolish and misguided plan.

 

I think if this had been official, there would have been a lot more evidence that it was. For example, the Arishok would need massive invasion forces stationed near each of these locations. So where were they? And if they were there, why did the Qunari think some lame excuse would convince the south that they weren't there to conquer them? Seems to me like the Triumvirate said Viddasala went rogue because that was indeed the truth.

[Regan_Cousland]

I convinced Bull to save the Chargers and I romanced him.

 

When the qun lady tried to get him to turn on me, he pretty-much laughed in her face. T'was a sweet moment.