It brought nothing of worth as far as we know. There is a letter in Trespasser that says the Qunari did not order the Qunari to attack the Inquisition, nor were they going to order it. It seems like the Qunari you fight in Trespasser are just feeling a little roguish.
No, it's just standard practice for the Qun to disavow any of their operations that don't work out.
I hate that you had to basically kiss his bum for him to stay loyal . I made the right call . And alliance with the freaking Qunari .(A lot of good that did us in the end.)
The chargers were dead weight to me but family to him .
...What? I didn't even get along with Bull that well on a personal level, and he was still really easy to get approval from.
It brought nothing of worth as far as we know. There is a letter in Trespasser that says the Qunari did not order the Qunari to attack the Inquisition, nor were they going to order it. It seems like the Qunari you fight in Trespasser are just feeling a little roguish.
The thing is this letter can be interpreted in a great number of ways, since we don't have a lot of knowledge concerning the timing of it being sent. Still, the password she use for the Eluvian could go in the rogue direction : "maraas nehraa", which is comprised of the words "Nothing/Alone" and "For", but the translation is a little off, I believe.
I hate that you had to basically kiss his bum for him to stay loyal . I made the right call . And alliance with the freaking Qunari .(A lot of good that did us in the end.)
The chargers were dead weight to me but family to him .
Nah just respec him S&S and have him tank for a dragon fight. And horse races. You don't have to kiss Bull's butt to get him loyal.
I personally would like to commend the OP to have the courage to stick out his neck and give his opinion on the matter....although his avi scares me a little
I frequent this forum not to post so much because unfortunately I find that the people here tend to jump your **** if you have a little bit of criticism to say. Rarely do I see good healthy debate going on and that is so sad.
With that said I too felt Bull's betray was a tad OOC. If for anything he was right along side of me killing Qun warriors left and right before the supposed order was given. If he was so loyal to the Qun why did he stay by the Inky's side until the final moment like that? True it makes for really great SHOCK value in story telling and they did achieve that. I personally was more upset and shocked at Bull's betrayal than I was the whole ending with Solas, because I knew something of that fact was coming.
I also liked how the OP compared this with the Wrex loyalty issue and it was nice to be able to talk him down or have some dialogue to work through it one way or the other.
With Bull you didn't even get one final cut scene... I really felt his character arc at least deserved that much. I felt so numb after that and my party was like.... Ok....
Iron Bull....always thought something was up with that guy... ok moving on!
I just wish there could've been a little bit more to it.
Bull is a sleeper agent and a spy. His role was to get close to the Inquisitor and he kept that role going until he was given the order to turn on you, and take you by surprise (and that might actually have been effective if you weren't the player character). Don't forget that the Arishok allowed several of his own men to be killed when thieves stole what they thought was gaatlok. The only thing I would change is I would've had a proper cutscene post-battle.
With that said I too felt Bull's betray was a tad OOC. If for anything he was right along side of me killing Qun warriors left and right before the supposed order was given. If he was so loyal to the Qun why did he stay by the Inky's side until the final moment like that? True it makes for really great SHOCK value in story telling and they did achieve that. I personally was more upset and shocked at Bull's betrayal than I was the whole ending with Solas, because I knew something of that fact was coming.
Bull not betraying the Inquisitor would be OOC, honestly. He turned himself in to be re-educated, and any fighting he does at your side upon returning is probably seen as "necessary loss" in service to the Qun. The bigger goal is to get to the agent of Fen'Harel and to take out the Inquisitor. If some warriors die along the way, that was their duty to fulfill.
Once you remind Bull that it's all right to give up on friendship and love by sacrificing the Chargers, he has no reason to be loyal to you. The Qun comes first. It always had, until he started to doubt and feel differently. Allying with the Qunari only reaffirmed his loyalty to the Qun. Good job, and all that.
I know it can be tough to not be the One Special Thing in an NPCs life, but I really like that BioWare reminds us that the characters have a life and agendas outside of our presence. It doesn't always lead to happy times, but it does lead to a damn good and sensible story.
Nah just respec him S&S and have him tank for a dragon fight. And horse races. You don't have to kiss Bull's butt to get him loyal.
If you're a tank yourself, you can have him as a two-handed dragon-killing machine. In Normal mode, at least.
Nah just respec him S&S and have him tank for a dragon fight. And horse races. You don't have to kiss Bull's butt to get him loyal.
Yep...Kill some dragons, kill some vints,drink with him and you're set.
You told Bull it was okay to let the closet thing he had to a family be killed for the qun, and you were surprised that he turned on the (second) closest thing he has to a family for the qun?
And besides, as he says in some Banter, they keep telling people in Par Vollen that the South is ruled by parasitic feudal lords who don't give a **** about the plight of the very people whose work sustain their luxurious lifestyle.
He goes down south, and what does he find? A society ruled by parasitic feudal lords who don't give a **** about the plight of the very people whose work sustain their luxurious lifestyle. Bull's dilemma is whether there's something worth saving from such a wretched society: save the Chargers and you convince him that yes, their are people worth fighting for in the South and that the Triumvirate's hardline stance is wrong. Sacrifice the Chargers in the name of short-term political expediency and you convince Bull that the Qunari leaders are right to think that enlightening the South against its will is the right thing to do.
I think the decision to save the Chargers or the Dreadnaught goes beyond friendship. There was the potential to form an alliance with the Qun....that was indeed sketchy at best, however, when it's the end of the world you pretty much need as many allies as you can get. *thinks back to ME3* Honestly, it actually pains me that a single decision would make it so he would betray you. It makes me suspicious of his character and I'm getting a sort of Anders vibe almost. Sort of like he couldn't help himself. IDK maybe he was re-educated and so he was just like a walking talking robot going along with "the Boss" until the real Boss gave the order. I just can't help to be disappointed though....there's always gotta be a punch on the gut with these games at the end. ACK! 
If you're a tank yourself, you can have him as a two-handed dragon-killing machine. In Normal mode, at least.
I have him as an off tank. Most of the time he's on the team..... but that due to the fact he's romancing my female Qunari.
The thing is this letter can be interpreted in a great number of ways, since we don't have a lot of knowledge concerning the timing of it being sent. Still, the password she use for the Eluvian could go in the rogue direction : "maraas nehraa", which is comprised of the words "Nothing/Alone" and "For", but the translation is a little off, I believe.
Based on this translation of the password, she is essentiallly saying, "Here goes nothing!" 
Bull is a sleeper agent and a spy. His role was to get close to the Inquisitor and he kept that role going until he was given the order to turn on you, and take you by surprise (and that might actually have been effective if you weren't the player character). Don't forget that the Arishok allowed several of his own men to be killed when thieves stole what they thought was gaatlok. The only thing I would change is I would've had a proper cutscene post-battle.
Gotta love the Qun. I loved it in DA 2 and then MoA and then even DA I Tresspasser...they are worthy foes. A horrible horrible ideology that I want to see purged, but I do have a measure of respect for them.
I think the decision to save the Chargers or the Dreadnaught goes beyond friendship. There was the potential to form an alliance with the Qun....that was indeed sketchy at best, however, when it's the end of the world you pretty much need as many allies as you can get. *thinks back to ME3* Honestly, it actually pains me that a single decision would make it so he would betray you. It makes me suspicious of his character and I'm getting a sort of Anders vibe almost. Sort of like he couldn't help himself. IDK maybe he was re-educated and so he was just like a walking talking robot going along with "the Boss" until the real Boss gave the order. I just can't help to be disappointed though....there's always gotta be a punch on the gut with these games at the end. ACK!
I don't need an alliance with people who sacrifice people so recklessly. No one need to die on the beach and it only happen because they wanted the inquisition to bind their actions.
Sorry, but no thanks Qun.
Gotta love the Qun. I loved it in DA 2 and then MoA and then even DA I Tresspasser...they are worthy foes. A horrible horrible ideology that I want to see purged, but I do have a measure of respect for them.
I happen to like their ideology.
I think the decision to save the Chargers or the Dreadnaught goes beyond friendship. There was the potential to form an alliance with the Qun....that was indeed sketchy at best, however, when it's the end of the world you pretty much need as many allies as you can get. *thinks back to ME3* Honestly, it actually pains me that a single decision would make it so he would betray you. It makes me suspicious of his character and I'm getting a sort of Anders vibe almost. Sort of like he couldn't help himself. IDK maybe he was re-educated and so he was just like a walking talking robot going along with "the Boss" until the real Boss gave the order. I just can't help to be disappointed though....there's always gotta be a punch on the gut with these games at the end. ACK!
It both does go beyond friendship and yet also has friendship at the core of it. But it's not the friendship with the Inquisitor that's important - it's Krem (and by extension the rest of the Chargers, but since Krem is the face of them then I'm using him. And also he's Bull's best friend). The Chargers are Hissard's cover in the South, but they're The Iron Bull's family. Demands of the Qun is making the choice between whether he's Hissard, the loyal qunari sleeper agent who can throw away affection if the mission requires it, or Iron Bull, captain of the Chargers and Tal Vashoth. By killing the Chargers you're not only re-inforcing the idea that the loyality of the Qun should be placed above everything, you're also destorying the one connection to the South that your Qunari ally had.
Based on this translation of the password, she is essentiallly saying, "Here goes nothing!"
I hadn't thought of it. It could be interesting.
Thinking about it now, I can't help but find it strange that Viddasala would ask for Bull's help if he has become a Tal-Vashoth. Either she didn't knew he had turned against the Qun (which is plausible since she probably operated for months, perhaps years, hidden in the South, but can also be her being cut of from the true orders of the Qunari leaders) or she hoped it was still a pretence from him, some mock act he was performing in order to do his duty as a spy.
There may be a lot more depth in the way the Qunari were handled in Trespasser than I initially believed.
I happen to like their ideology.
...somehow i am not surprised. Anyways the Qun we got in Tresspasser, which I feel is consitant with the Qun everywhere else...there are elements of the ideology that are attractive, the problem is they believe everyone else has to follow it to. AND the bigger irony is of course the whole reason for the Qun is because they do not trust their own people not to be barbarians unless they are put under strict control...mirrors real life politics don't it?
I happen to like their ideology.
There pros to it but it's still is too extreme. Anyone would like a system were the one's in charge were not corrupt and anyone can lead if they prove their worth. But at a cost to so much freedom and being just something that can be used and thrown away just because is not ideal.
If you're a tank yourself, you can have him as a two-handed dragon-killing machine. In Normal mode, at least.
Ah I'm used to nightmare. 2HD is a pita to play for me. S&S bull (since he's in like all my parties) just gives me such less headaches.
Yep...Kill some dragons, kill some vints,drink with him and you're set.
A man after my own heart 
Bull is a sleeper agent and a spy. His role was to get close to the Inquisitor and he kept that role going until he was given the order to turn on you, and take you by surprise (and that might actually have been effective if you weren't the player character). Don't forget that the Arishok allowed several of his own men to be killed when thieves stole what they thought was gaatlok. The only thing I would change is I would've had a proper cutscene post-battle.
it is possible that he could've become a sort of double agent though and if you save the Chargers that is what you get essentially. I don't have an issue with the betrayal per-say, what I have issue with is I feel that dialogue and choices at the point of the betrayal was sacrificed for mere Shock value and there was not a proper cut scene with him. So we do agree on that point. 
Bull not betraying the Inquisitor would be OOC, honestly. He turned himself in to be re-educated, and any fighting he does at your side upon returning is probably seen as "necessary loss" in service to the Qun. The bigger goal is to get to the agent of Fen'Harel and to take out the Inquisitor. If some warriors die along the way, that was their duty to fulfill.
Once you remind Bull that it's all right to give up on friendship and love by sacrificing the Chargers, he has no reason to be loyal to you. The Qun comes first. It always had, until he started to doubt and feel differently. Allying with the Qunari only reaffirmed his loyalty to the Qun. Good job, and all that.
I know it can be tough to not be the One Special Thing in an NPCs life, but I really like that BioWare reminds us that the characters have a life and agendas outside of our presence. It doesn't always lead to happy times, but it does lead to a damn good and sensible story.
I get all of that and that is not my main issue with it. My main issue is it's so black and white a decision though. There were not a set of decisions that lead him to betray you. I mean even making Leliana hard or soft there are 3 decision points in that process. I guess that is my main issue with it. Now metagaming I will probably always save the chargers because I don't want to experienced that betrayal. Also, I think when you recruit an agent of the inquisition you pretty much expect and demand their allegiance. I think it's great story telling to have spies in the ranks and like with Solas that was a shocker and so now Bull and who knows who else. But honestly if Leliana was doing her job *throws up hands* You just can't get good help! That is why I chose to disband the Inquisition.
There pros to it but it's still is too extreme. Anyone would like a system were the one's in charge were not corrupt and anyone can lead if they prove their worth. But at a cost to so much freedom and being just something that can be used and thrown away just because is not ideal.
On this subject though while the IB thing was perhaps a little wonky (imo) this does suggest an interesting route for DA in the future under Pat Weekes. Iron Bull, Sera, Solas, and Cullen all suffered gigantic consquences based on what you did to them and their arcs in the game. Also Cole. Its bold writing whether they make it work remains to be seen.
Good point. Consequences for our actions is something that people always say they want more of. Now it's actually happening.
Anyways I wasnt so much worried about Bull, mainly beacause I trusted lieliana with keeping tabs on him, obiviously Qunari could have spies in our ranks anyways though leting them in would make it easier for her to control no ? Uselss ****** xD
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