657 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasanil]

Only thing that bothered me about the scene was the Vidisaala's potential loyalty/ sanity in regards to the Qun was in question at that point in time.  The DLC was sort of hinting at her being an out and out Tal-Vashoth, a Qunari agent hopped up on Red Lyrium so acting without orders, or an agent provacteur someone who gave the Qun positive deniability in the event things went to ****.  

 

Pretty sure that was exactly the point of Bull turning on you, to confirm it was a legitimate operation and the Qun only disavowed after it failed. Like they always do. I mean for a faction of "rogues" they sure had a lot of resources, enough to capture a dragon, access to most sensitive part of the spy network to infiltrate every centre of power outside of Tevinter and enough gaatlok to blow them all to hell simultaneously. 

 

Not to mention the nature of the plan itself. Which relied on the Qunari being ready to fully capitalise on the immediate chaos of the aftermath with an invasion. Meaning they had to have expeditions already prepared to move, hence the sudden and unexpected invasion of Tevinter afterwords, they already had the soldiers ready from start.

 

Don't let the letter fool you, the Qunari certainly put no stock in such meaningless pieces of paper. They're merely effective distractions to be discarded at the convenience of the Qun.

[leaguer of one]

I hope this teaches people a lesson about cuddling up to the goddamn Qunari. They aren't your allies, or your friends, and can never be. 

Unless they become tal vasoth

[leaguer of one]

They don't throw you away if you are still useful. And I don't really much care for personal freedom. I'd be happy with a role given to me. I sure could use something like that in my life right now....

Really...

*looks at Arashok.

[Al Foley]

Pretty sure that was exactly the point of Bull turning on you, to confirm it was a legitimate operation and the Qun only disavowed after it failed. Like they always do. I mean for a faction of "rogues" they sure had a lot of resources, enough to capture a dragon, access to most sensitive part of the spy network to infiltrate every centre of power outside of Tevinter and enough gaatlok to blow them all to hell simultaneously. 

 

Not to mention the nature of the plan itself. Which relied on the Qunari being ready to fully capitalise on the immediate chaos of the aftermath with an invasion. Meaning they had to have expeditions already prepared to move, hence the sudden and unexpected invasion of Tevinter afterwords, they already had the soldiers ready from start.

 

Don't let the letter fool you, the Qunari certainly put no stock in such meaningless pieces of paper. They're merely effective distractions to be discarded at the convenience of the Qun.

Exactly which is why I lean towards option/ theory three personally.  I'm just explaining my thought process.  It bothered me, till I considered those three options.  Plus its a Qun thing.

[squirrely1]

I don't need an alliance with people who sacrifice people so recklessly. No one need to die on the beach and it only happen because they wanted the inquisition to bind their actions.

 

Sorry, but no thanks Qun.

Yeah I get it don't worry.     But that is how the "Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend" came about.  If they want to throw their Qun ranks at Corphy and whatever else shows up in the last battle then so be it.  At least they are fighting with me not against me.  

 

And just so I put it on record.  My canon play through I saved the Chargers.  On my second play through I sacrificed them to get the other game play... I'm glad I did so I could experience that betrayal.  It really does make for good story telling and I wasn't spoiled so I was really shocked...for that I do give Bioware writers props.  My issue is more the decision points that get you there and then no cut scene with him at his point of no return.

[leaguer of one]

Pretty sure that was exactly the point of Bull turning on you, to confirm it was a legitimate operation and the Qun only disavowed after it failed. Like they always do. I mean for a faction of "rogues" they sure had a lot of resources, enough to capture a dragon, access to most sensitive part of the spy network to infiltrate every centre of power outside of Tevinter and enough gaatlok to blow them all to hell simultaneously. 

 

Not to mention the nature of the plan itself. Which relied on the Qunari being ready to fully capitalise on the immediate chaos of the aftermath with an invasion. Meaning they had to have expeditions already prepared to move, hence the sudden and unexpected invasion of Tevinter afterwords, they already had the soldiers ready from start.

 

Don't let the letter fool you, the Qunari certainly put no stock in such meaningless pieces of paper. They're merely effective distractions to be discarded at the convenience of the Qun.

Yep, We at war with the qunari in all forms but in name. It's funny that I play as a qunari pc and during the main game if roledplayed her as being uneasy with so little of her kind around and then as soon a trespasser get going she feels nothing as she kill qunari left and right. The only thing that upset her up was the thought of people in the inquisition being spies and betraying her and Sols' plans.

[Ryzaki]

I'm still wondering if they tried to get Tal Vasoth Bull back into the fold and said killing the Quizzy was his last chance but his response was consistently no? It'd at least explain the weird pleading.

[Nixou]

Pretty sure that was exactly the point of Bull turning on you, to confirm it was a legitimate operation and the Qun only disavowed after it failed. Like they always do. I mean for a faction of "rogues" they sure had a lot of resources, enough to capture a dragon, access to most sensitive part of the spy network to infiltrate every centre of power outside of Tevinter and enough gaatlok to blow them all to hell simultaneously. 

 

 

It's also possible that the Qunari higher-ups both approved the Viddasala's operation and were at the same time opposed to her most reckless methods and already intent on court-martialing her once she came back, kinda like a surviving Arishok from Dragon Age 2. But in this case, BullHissrad would probably not have been aware about such high-ranking internal feuds, and ultimately chose to obey the nearest superior officer by default.

[Amne YA]

order him to kill his charger and stay loyal to the Qun; complain about betrayal. seriously? he is doing his job. you don't respect him?he doesn't respect you too.

[squirrely1]

order him to kill his charger and stay loyal to the Qun; complain about betrayal. seriously? he is doing his job. you don't respect him?he doesn't respect you too.

Pretty sure Inquisitor doesn't order Bull to actually kill them.  He was ordered to save the Dreadnaught and in so doing the Chargers don't retreat and die.  What's ironic is I was just reading on the wiki and regardless of what decision you make you still get a Bull Greatly Approves rating.  

 

Also, pretty sure the Inquisition HIRED Bull and the Chargers.  So let's talk about...."doing your job" for a moment...

I just can't see "If he agreed in the beginning to be a sort of double agent" for the Inquisition how doing this one action will make him want to betray you.  By him not staying loyal to the Qun actually puts him at risk for being found out as said double agent and they would then probably track him down to kill him and obviously quit giving him information.  So you essentially cut off your sources.  Politics is a dirty business and when you have to consider thousands of lives vs a group of Mercenaries that Bull considers his family, yeah I understand the feels I do, but honestly it just seems too black and white for my taste.  I just wish there were more decision points that went into what lead to his betrayal.  

[Ryzaki]

It's really not that complicated though.

 

Iron Bull first priority was the Qun when you met him (well it *should've* been) so either you do his quest (which forces him to show what his actual prority is) or you don't do his quest (in which case the Qun automatically wins the priority match). If you do his quest and then have him sacrifice the chargers you're pretty much telling him The Qun is more important than any bonds you may have formed. It's only logical he applies that lesson to the Inquisitor as well considering he's know them far less time than the Chargers.

 

Doing his quest and saving the Chargers pretty much tells him he can be sane without the Qun and that his friends and close ones are more important. In this case you pretty much solidify his choice to stay loyal because you're telling him The bonds he's formed are more important than the Qun.

 

It's pretty much Quizzy dropping something on the scale that is Iron Bull being loyal to them or being loyal to the Qun. If you don't add anything to the scale it goes Qun side but if you save the chargers it goes in Quizzy's favor.

 

I can't explain it any simpler D:

[ModernAcademic]

If he didn't betray me, I'd be frankly disappointed.

[SandiKay0]

The Iron Bull died with the Chargers. Only the liar was left.

[squirrely1]

It's really not that complicated though.

 

Iron Bull first priority was the Qun when you met him (well it *should've* been) so either you do his quest (which forces him to show what his actual prority is) or you don't do his quest (in which case the Qun automatically wins the priority match). If you do his quest and then have him sacrifice the chargers you're pretty much telling him The Qun is more important than any bonds you may have formed. It's only logical he applies that lesson to the Inquisitor as well considering he's know them far less time than the Chargers.

 

Doing his quest and saving the Chargers pretty much tells him he can be sane without the Qun and that his friends and close ones are more important. In this case you pretty much solidify his choice to stay loyal because you're telling him The bonds he's formed are more important than the Qun.

 

It's pretty much Quizzy dropping something on the scale that is Iron Bull being loyal to them or being loyal to the Qun. If you don't add anything to the scale it goes Qun side but if you save the chargers it goes in Quizzy's favor.

 

I can't explain it any simpler D:

But looking at it strictly from a military/political perspective this makes no sense.  If you are a Merc and you are a double agent you are signed on for some pretty deep **** so you better be  ready for some tricky fall out which may include torture to people you love and or even their death.  It is all about loyalties at the core of who you are and at the end of the day who and what you stand for.  The Recruit ....anyone?? 

 

The day he signed on with the Inquisition (took a new job and was getting paid for it) he agreed to feed them information and that made him a double agent at that point.  

 

By exposing that....(saving the Chargers so you can keep Bull happy)  that blows Bull's cover and essentially puts him at greater risk actually. 

 

 

The point is....the way it plays out in the end if you sacrifice the Chargers....Bull was NEVER loyal to you period.  The Chargers choice just happen to be the means to the end (points in the game to trigger the betrayal scene) and so it's like Whoa?  What?  you mean all that stuff we did the beers, the dragon killing the banter...all that was just a lie?  That is how it comes off if you get the betrayal...that he was doing it from the start.  So the Chargers decision in the end didn't make him betray you.  If we could ask Bull if that is what did it he probably would say...nah... I was a jerk all along...that was just the icing on the cake.  I think that is what the OP was trying to say....can the Bull character really be trusted at all? 

 

Hope that makes sense.

[vertigomez]

Unhardened Leliana will try to kill you if you sprinkle some dragon's blood on a dead lady. Compare that to Bull, who is most definitely hardened and has the PTSD to prove it, and who'll turn on you if you sacrifice the only family he has and reinforce his dependence on the Qun. The point is that the Chargers are more than an Inquisition resource, just like the Ashes are more than just... ashes. To the faithful, they're a symbol. The exploding Dreadnaught is also a symbol. Symboolsss.

If you sacrifice the Chargers for an "alliance" (and I use that term loosely), you are telling Hissrad that it's fine - more than that, that it's necessary - to put the mission before the men. The Qun's mission is to forcibly convert all of Thedas, and you are the men.

[BansheeOwnage]

If you're a tank yourself, you can have him as a two-handed dragon-killing machine. In Normal mode, at least.

You don't even need a tank, just Barrier

 

I happen to like their ideology.

 

I knew this would come in handy eventually

[squirrely1]

That's it!  Bull was a NOC   LOL  That explains everything.  That is the only thing that makes sense in my head canon anyway....and I have some strange head canon.

[Ryzaki]

But looking at it strictly from a military/political perspective this makes no sense.  If you are a Merc and you are a double agent you are signed on for some pretty deep **** so you better be  ready for some tricky fall out which may include torture to people you love and or even their death.  It is all about loyalties at the core of who you are and at the end of the day who and what you stand for.  The Recruit ....anyone?? 

 

The day he signed on with the Inquisition (took a new job and was getting paid for it) he agreed to feed them information and that made him a double agent at that point.  

 

By exposing that....(saving the Chargers so you can keep Bull happy)  that blows Bull's cover and essentially puts him at greater risk actually. 

 

 

The point is....the way it plays out in the end if you sacrifice the Chargers....Bull was NEVER loyal to you period.  The Chargers choice just happen to be the means to the end (points in the game to trigger the betrayal scene) and so it's like Whoa?  What?  you mean all that stuff we did the beers, the dragon killing the banter...all that was just a lie?  That is how it comes off if you get the betrayal...that he was doing it from the start.  So the Chargers decision in the end didn't make him betray you.  If we could ask Bull if that is what did it he probably would say...nah... I was a jerk all along...that was just the icing on the cake.  I think that is what the OP was trying to say....can the Bull character really be trusted at all? 

 

Hope that makes sense.

But it does it makes perfect sense actually.

 

You are not Bull's Superior if you save the dreadnought. The Qun is. And the Qun told him to stab you in the back and so he did. You saving the dreadnought reaffirms Bull's belief that the Qun should come first. And so he puts it first. Even over the Inquisitor.

 

And yeah those loyalties of his...to the QUN. Bull is never loyal to you until save the Chargers. That's when you tell him it's okay to be disloyal to the Qun it doesn't make him mad (his greatest fear is madness). It doesn't make him a beast. The Tal Vashoth he killed were most likely not mindless beast either. You tell him all this in the post saving Chargers conversation.

 

I don't think you get that Bull was a spy for the Qunari. He is not the Inquisitor's spy. Bull wasn't a double agent til Trespasser he wasn't working against the Qun in base Inquisition.

 

There is no cover to be blown. Bull told you what he was from the start. Literally it's one of the first "I'm a spy" related line he has. I just recruited him not even 2 minutes ago. He was put in place to be close to you so the Qunari could exploit that. And they do if he remains loyal to them.

 

Yes. Bull was never loyal to you if you kept him in the Qun. That's the running message with Qunari is that they're fair weather friends and will stab you in the back as soon as their Qun demands. You gain Bull's loyalty by breaking him from the Qun.

 

The chargers design is part of him being tied to the Qun. If Bull is a Qunari he's going to betray you because the Qun demands you be betrayed for the greater good.

 

As for trusting Bull's character not if you leave Bull Qunari? You can't trust him worth a damn. That's why his Qunari name means liar. Getting him away from that means yeah you can trust him (he's still a liar though because it's ingrained in him at that point but it's not stab you in the back lies).

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I respect Bull more because of this, OP.

 

Bull must be the greatest genius ever, he tells you who he works for and some people still don't see the betrayal coming.

[Drasanil]

I respect Bull more because of this, OP.

 

Bull must be the greatest genius ever, he tells you who he works for and some people still don't see the betrayal coming.

 

This. Seriously 

[Teddie Sage]

Play your violin somewhere else if this post is all you can contribute.

Sorry, but I got no sympathy for you there. You made the terrible choice, deal with it instead of whining. I personally never chose the Qun over the Chargers and now I got another reason to never do that foolish choice.

[Bigdoser]

This. Seriously 

Yeah my Qunari was like seriously wtf when he told me, but decided to keep him close because the Qunari would infiltrate the inquisition anyway so his reports could be useful. He did warm up to him afterwards though. 

[Ryzaki]

Yeah my Qunari was like seriously wtf when he told me, but decided to keep him close because the Qunari would infiltrate the inquisition anyway so his reports could be useful. He did warm up to him afterwards though. 

 

Same that was the blatant Qunari attempt. My PC couldn't run the risk of not knowing their actual spies. Least this way they had a chance to see if Bull had any weaknesses.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah my Qunari was like seriously wtf when he told me, but decided to keep him close because the Qunari would infiltrate the inquisition anyway so his reports could be useful. He did warm up to him afterwards though. 

Same....And she ended sleeping with him and turning him away from the qun.

[leaguer of one]

Same that was the blatant Qunari attempt. My PC couldn't run the risk of not knowing their actual spies. Least this way they had a chance to see if Bull had any weaknesses.

Weakness one.

 

He can't resist my female qunari pc's  rack....on her chest.