657 réponses à ce sujet

[Hadeedak]

Relevant, y'all.

 

That's like... shockingly relevant.

 

You also made me think about that song, which is a Christmas miracle in its own right. Iron Bull's pretty cool.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't believe that at all.

 

1.  A rogue team of qunari would not have the qunari nation ready to invade the south after killing off the nobles. The fact that is part of the plan means they are not rogue.

 

2.It not just one even. The thing that dicides it with the iron bull is if he learns to live with out the qun or not. if he does not  he is going to fallow is nature and fallow the qun.

 

1. They weren't ready to invade though. And beyond that, the plan doesn't make sense. The entire thing was Vidasala's idea. The Gattlock was made by her company, and it was done in haste using the Attashi venom. The reason is because the plan was rushed, much like the entire DLC.

 

2. His nature and the Qun are at odds though, just like before. He wants to follow the Qun, but he can't just ignore the obvious truths that the Inquisitor is not involved in any elven plot and the Inquisitor will not be bested by the Ben-Hassrath. Same reason he chose to tell the Herald he was a spy right off the rip. He knew he wouldn't be able to keep it a secret. Well, he should have known he couldn't beat the Inquisitor. So he should have said, "I'm fine with following the demands of the Qun ma'am, but your conclusions are wrong. And when we beat you, the folks back home are going to wash their hands of you anyway, so... I'm gonna side with the winners."
 

[Dai Grepher]

Having Bull's decision to join the Qun evolve around his opinion of the Inquisitor instead of the Chargers would lessen the impact severely. Then instead of a crisis of faith and personality it just becomes a "well I just don't like you" and that devalues it for me immensely.

 

You misunderstand. It would have nothing to do with his opinion of the Inquisitor. It would be about what kind of DANGER he thinks the Inquisitor would pose to the south and the Qunari. If the Inquisitor was going around liberating mages and cavorting with demons, or if the Inquisitor is under Mythal's compulsion, then yeah, Hissrad should try to take the Inquisitor out.

 

Also, the Chargers are not a factor at all. If you didn't do Demands of the Qun, the Chargers will still live, but Hissrad will also still be Qunari. He will side with the Ben-Hassrath in this worldstate as well. So no, the Chargers had nothing to do with his choice. The only way he sticks with you is if he abandoned the Qun on that hill in the Storm Coast.

[leaguer of one]

1. They weren't ready to invade though. And beyond that, the plan doesn't make sense. The entire thing was Vidasala's idea. The Gattlock was made by her company, and it was done in haste using the Attashi venom. The reason is because the plan was rushed, much like the entire DLC.

 

2. His nature and the Qun are at odds though, just like before. He wants to follow the Qun, but he can't just ignore the obvious truths that the Inquisitor is not involved in any elven plot and the Inquisitor will not be bested by the Ben-Hassrath. Same reason he chose to tell the Herald he was a spy right off the rip. He knew he wouldn't be able to keep it a secret. Well, he should have known he couldn't beat the Inquisitor. So he should have said, "I'm fine with following the demands of the Qun ma'am, but your conclusions are wrong. And when we beat you, the folks back home are going to wash their hands of you anyway, so... I'm gonna side with the winners."
 

1. Yes they were. Sorry, but the Anatan was ready to sweep southern thedas. You can't argue that.

 

2. That does not matter. Iron bull nature is dead if you let the chargers die. You're not getting the fact that you are not letting him have anything important beyond the qun. You're make him understand that only the qun is importat and his role  over his friend and family, he's going o fallow suit. Sorry, but you deluding you're self if you think he was not going to turn.

[leaguer of one]

You misunderstand. It would have nothing to do with his opinion of the Inquisitor. It would be about what kind of DANGER he thinks the Inquisitor would pose to the south and the Qunari. If the Inquisitor was going around liberating mages and cavorting with demons, or if the Inquisitor is under Mythal's compulsion, then yeah, Hissrad should try to take the Inquisitor out.

 

Also, the Chargers are not a factor at all. If you didn't do Demands of the Qun, the Chargers will still live, but Hissrad will also still be Qunari. He will side with the Ben-Hassrath in this worldstate as well. So no, the Chargers had nothing to do with his choice. The only way he sticks with you is if he abandoned the Qun on that hill in the Storm Coast.

You do understand these are people who casually let their soldiers die for the cause. At that point the full plan was over. they could not sweep the north. The only thing they could do is try and kill Solas  and used every soldier they had to slow you down till they did. Solas was the issue at that point and you were slowly dying. Bull knows this and comes into the fight just to slow you down so the mark effects you more. Keep the fight going long enough and the mark would do their job for them. The fly in the soup was Solas' recharge back to the powers of an elven god.

[vertigomez]

That's like... shockingly relevant.
 
You also made me think about that song, which is a Christmas miracle in its own right. Iron Bull's pretty cool.

Right?! It's brilliant.

See that's just it....I know this seems like splitting hairs but still this bugs me.   It's not letting the Chargers die that makes Bull snap to the dark side....it's SAVING THE CHARGERS that ultimately changes him.  He was already that lying Ben Hassrath spy in your ranks and he was there to get close to the inquisition and learn all he could for the Qun....the day you SAVED the Chargers was the day that Bull opened his eyes and realized where his true loyalty was.

I honestly don't see how this matters much. Yes, you have to earn his friendship... just like you do with Zevran, who will also turn on you if you don't bother to cultivate a relationship with him. Bull outright TELLS YOU what he's there to do. It is entirely up to you to convince him to change his mind, to decide that the man he is without the Qun is worth more than the Qunari he is with it, which is really a lot more player agency than other gotcha! decisions in these games, liiiike not being able to stop Anders from blowing up the Chantry regardless of having high friendship/rivalry.

If it's just you feeling betrayed because he was lying and wasn't rly your bro, it's like questioning whether Morrigan's friendship/love is ~real~ because she was after the OGB the whole time. She manipulates and uses you, but that doesn't mean there's not true affection there or that she didn't become fond of the Warden over time. It just means she has priorities. She has a mission and she can't afford to let her feels get in the way. Bull's priority, unless you convince him otherwise, is the Qun. Which he tells you within fifteen seconds of meeting him. After that, the onus is on the player to do something about that.

Once he realizes he's not going to become a mindless ravening beast without the Qun, once you convince him that he doesn't need it, he's a beautiful loyal puppy. But you have to sever his dependence on it, just like you have to sever Zevran's dependence on the Crows or he'll decide they're a safer/more reliable bet than you.

[Darkstarr11]

This article sums it up well enough, but seriously?  Bull was a plant.  I never truly bought the whole schtick where he showed up and revealed himself.  No, a spy doesn't do that.  If he had known he'd be outed, then another should have been sent.  No, he was a plant, plain and simple.  In fact, his whole arc ISN'T about him choosing the Qun...it's about choosing to be who he REALLY is.  If you screw over the Chargers, then he simply sticks with the original plan.  The Qunari were going to betray the Inquisition regardless, it was only a matter of WHEN.  He was there to facilitate that.  When they thought he'd started to go native, as it were, they tested him.  Some pointed out that it was insane to sacrifice a whole dreadnought for a test.  Actually, considering what they did in Trespasser, that was nothing.  They needed to know if Bull was still their point man, if he was going to be able to pull off the coup de grace.  How loyal he was to you was in doubt...but he was ALWAYS loyal to the Chargers.  Save them, save yourself.

 

Here is the article...

 

http://shallow-betwe...st/128769818344

 

I respect him because I didn't screw him over.  Betrayal only begets MORE betrayal...

[ProphetOfDoom666]

Sorry, but I got no sympathy for you there. You made the terrible choice, deal with it instead of whining. I personally never chose the Qun over the Chargers and now I got another reason to never do that foolish choice.

Sry but i have to...you can kiss my azz
PS: I was suprised and not whining nor did i ask for the sympathy of a nobody on a inet forum.

[Teddie Sage]

Sry but i have to...you can kiss my azz

Nope. Also, it's spelled ass. It's not a taboo word here. 

[SweetTeaholic]

It always baffled me that people forget that Bull's personal mission was always about him and not if you should make an alliance with the Qunari or not. It is his personal mission after all; so there ya go. Hell, Bull doesn't even like the idea of the alliance. He knows his own people (the Qunari) don't do alliances but tries to believe that they're serious, even when he knows better. And of course the Inquisition could use any help they can get.

 

He was plant there as a sleeper agent; and if you let the Chargers die, he commits fully to that role. The only reason why Bull hasn't left the Qun already being he's scared that without, he'll become savage like the Tal Vashoth he fought in Serehon and his biggest fear is madness. And being all WoT2 tells us about what went down and his PTSD it makes sense.

 

But he likes drinking, eating, and breaking beds; and grew to like the people and the freedom he had away from the Qun. He made a family for himself from a band of misfits and Krem happens to be his son Bestfriend.

 

And if you kill his family and his best friend; you're killing whatever linked him to the Iron Bull. The Iron Bull died with them; all that's left is Hissrad.

 

He is/was already Tal Vashoth but in name. The mission was whether to make it official or not. 

[Illyria]

But looking at it strictly from a military/political perspective this makes no sense.  If you are a Merc and you are a double agent you are signed on for some pretty deep **** so you better be  ready for some tricky fall out which may include torture to people you love and or even their death.  It is all about loyalties at the core of who you are and at the end of the day who and what you stand for.  The Recruit ....anyone?? 

 

The day he signed on with the Inquisition (took a new job and was getting paid for it) he agreed to feed them information and that made him a double agent at that point.  

 

By exposing that....(saving the Chargers so you can keep Bull happy)  that blows Bull's cover and essentially puts him at greater risk actually. 

 

 

The point is....the way it plays out in the end if you sacrifice the Chargers....Bull was NEVER loyal to you period.  The Chargers choice just happen to be the means to the end (points in the game to trigger the betrayal scene) and so it's like Whoa?  What?  you mean all that stuff we did the beers, the dragon killing the banter...all that was just a lie?  That is how it comes off if you get the betrayal...that he was doing it from the start.  So the Chargers decision in the end didn't make him betray you.  If we could ask Bull if that is what did it he probably would say...nah... I was a jerk all along...that was just the icing on the cake.  I think that is what the OP was trying to say....can the Bull character really be trusted at all? 

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

That's pretty much it, really.  Bull wasn't loyal to you the moment you hired him at the Storm Coast, and as long as you sacrifice the Chargers or don't do his quest then he's never loyal to you.  He tells you this.  He says 'I'm a Qunari spy, a Ben Hassrath agent and I was ordered to get close to you'.  And people just kind of ignore that about him.  Hissard doesn't just mean liar - it also means Keeper of Illusions, and that's exactly what Bull does.  He lies through his honesty.  By telling you he's a spy he distracts you from the fact that he's a spy.

 

Am I saying Bull can't be trusted?  Am I saying I lost respect for him?  Nope and nope.  This is because Bull is utterly loyal and utterly trustworthy, but it's to the Qun, not to you.  But when you tell him it's okay to be Tal Vashoth - that it's okay to put his friendships above his duty - that's when he's loyal to you (and to himself, as well. He stops being a drone of the Qun and becomes The Iron Bull).

 

Bull's arc isn't truly about duty and loyalty, it's about religious faith and doubt.  These are themes that are at the core of DAI, and affect so many of the companion quests.  Bull's name - Hissard - it almost describes how he feels about the Qun.  He lies all the time about how strong his loyalty to the Qun is (because he really wants to be The Iron Bull).  He lies to himself about how good the Qun is (what fans deride as 'cuddlyqun' is really Bull trying to feel like his loyalty to the Qun works with his role as Bull.  I could write essays about Bull, Krem and the Qun.)
 

[Dani100]

Damn, I've got to allow the Chargers to die, I want to take Bull down. He complains about Sera stealing his kill, what a joke! No matter where my Inky went here comes Bull trying to steal kills, damn kill hog. Let's see him steal this kill.

[Illyria]

Having Bull's decision to join the Qun evolve around his opinion of the Inquisitor instead of the Chargers would lessen the impact severely. Then instead of a crisis of faith and personality it just becomes a "well I just don't like you" and that devalues it for me immensely.

 

I don't have any likes!  If I had some I would like this.

 

Take a instead.
 

[Ryzaki]

You misunderstand. It would have nothing to do with his opinion of the Inquisitor. It would be about what kind of DANGER he thinks the Inquisitor would pose to the south and the Qunari. If the Inquisitor was going around liberating mages and cavorting with demons, or if the Inquisitor is under Mythal's compulsion, then yeah, Hissrad should try to take the Inquisitor out.

 

Also, the Chargers are not a factor at all. If you didn't do Demands of the Qun, the Chargers will still live, but Hissrad will also still be Qunari. He will side with the Ben-Hassrath in this worldstate as well. So no, the Chargers had nothing to do with his choice. The only way he sticks with you is if he abandoned the Qun on that hill in the Storm Coast.

 

Then it should be based off the decisions you make and not approval. (I.E. Free mages should auto flag him). It shouldn't matter how high your approval is in that matter. But that's really ignoring the fact that why would Bull care about the danger to the south as a loyal qunari? As long as it's not a threat to the Qunari it's a non issue. And the PC doesn't make any decisions that harm the qunari til Bull's quest.

 

The Chargers are the catalyst for him abandoning the Qun. If it wasn't for them him blowing that horn would've been a non issue. That's the point. He abandons the qun for them. Taking them out of the equation means he has no reason to leave the Qun.
 

[DWareFan]

For my inquisitors, having Bull leave the chargers to die would be like my inquisitor leaving Cassandra, Varric and Dorian to die.  Never going to happen.  They all tell Leliana the same thing, our men are important, we are better than they are.  The inquisitor telling Bull to save his guys is no different.

 

Bull is Tal-Vashoth when he meets the inquisitor.  He just didn't know it until the lives of his men were at stake.

 

Plus, who in their right mind as the inquisitor would trust the Qunari?  Only someone who didn't read A Tale of the Champion. 

 

End point, love The Iron Bull.  Solas is another story, the elven supremicist.

[QueenCrow]

 

 

Plus, who in their right mind as the inquisitor would trust the Qunari?   

 

 

Right!  There's the golden question.  And the only difference in the answer is whether the player sees The Iron Bull as Qunari - he is Qunari in the most fundamental sense (See the horns? Hear him explaining the culture in which he was born and raised and using Qunlat words?)

 

In my mind, there's no way that Iron Bull can come out of this one without the taint of a betrayer.  It would be like making the choice between betraying your friends or committing treason against the nation to which you hold citizenship.  Both acts strike a blow to conscience and integrity.  Both indicate the propensity for serious betrayal, regardless of what direction the writers would like to steer your thinking in game.

[vertigomez]

That depends how fussed you are about treason.

[Illyria]

For my inquisitors, having Bull leave the chargers to die would be like my inquisitor leaving Cassandra, Varric and Dorian to die.  Never going to happen.  They all tell Leliana the same thing, our men are important, we are better than they are.  The inquisitor telling Bull to save his guys is no different.

 

Bull is Tal-Vashoth when he meets the inquisitor.  He just didn't know it until the lives of his men were at stake.

 

Plus, who in their right mind as the inquisitor would trust the Qunari?  Only someone who didn't read A Tale of the Champion. 

 

End point, love The Iron Bull.  Solas is another story, the elven supremicist.

 

Okay, Solas is possibly the most complicated and interesting character that Bioware have ever created.  I really don't see the point of just suddenly making that dig at him at the end of an otherwise pretty good post.

[DWareFan]

Okay, Solas is possibly the most complicated and interesting character that Bioware have ever created.  I really don't see the point of just suddenly making that dig at him at the end of an otherwise pretty good post.

 

Solas IS an elven supremecist.

[Illyria]

Solas IS an elven supremecist.

 

And that has to do with Bull because....?

[DWareFan]

And that has to do with Bull because....

 

Bull does not turn on the inquisitor if the chargers are saved.  Solas turns on the inquisitor no matter what.  Edited to add...Solas lies to your face no matter how you treat him.  Bull doesn't.  Have to respect someone who knows who he is and says it up front over someone who lies from the minute you meet him and lies to his love interest too.

[Sah291]

I really can't think of a good logical reason to agree to work with someone like Bull in the first place, unless you are RPing an Inquisitor who really isn't that happy with the Chantry or with the idea of the Inquisition to begin with and doesn't mind opening it up to the potential for compromise.... Same with most of the other companions for that matter, since a lot of them have a past, or an agenda, or trust issues. But I guess the point is to show how easily organizations like that fall to corruption and betrayal, especially for a leader who utterly fails to inspire or get people to like them. A likeable Inquisitor can turn most (but not all) of their companions to their side, at least for the time being to take down Cory. But the organization still falls to spies in the end.

[Arvaarad]

For my inquisitors, having Bull leave the chargers to die would be like my inquisitor leaving Cassandra, Varric and Dorian to die. Never going to happen. They all tell Leliana the same thing, our men are important, we are better than they are. The inquisitor telling Bull to save his guys is no different.

Bull is Tal-Vashoth when he meets the inquisitor. He just didn't know it until the lives of his men were at stake.

Plus, who in their right mind as the inquisitor would trust the Qunari? Only someone who didn't read A Tale of the Champion.

End point, love The Iron Bull. Solas is another story, the elven supremicist.

Wait, you're mad at Solas for preferring his people over everyone else... after you give preferential treatment to six Chargers over 100 Qunari on the dreadnought, just because the Chargers are your men?

Uhhhhhh...

[Korva]

I dislike this character, and I dislike most of Trespasser, but his betrayal is really well done and makes perfect sense for all the reasons other have listed. And honestly, I'm glad that it's the Chargers and not the Inquisitor that are the lynchpin when it comes to decicing who and what he is. As much as I cherish strong friendships between PCs and NPCs, as much as I loathe Bioware's tendency to disregard those friendships and have the companions scatter without looking back before the big bad's corpse is even cold on the ground -- the Iron Bull was the captain of his merc group long, long before he was the Inquisitor's companion. They are the ones who planted the seeds for him "going native". They were the ones he first cared for as people, instead of viewing them as things as the Qun dictates. They are the closest thing he has to family. By obediently throwing them under the bus at that little sh*t Gatt's demand, the Inquisitor tells Bull that even a laughable lie of an "alliance" with people who are known not to do alliances is worth more than friendship, invididuality or loyalty to those who are loyal to you in turn.

 

In a way, his betrayal only returns that lesson to the sender. Turns out that some players don't accept being discarded as easily as they discard others, but tough luck.

[Ryzaki]

Wait, you're mad at Solas for preferring his people over everyone else... after you give preferential treatment to six Chargers over 100 Qunari on the dreadnought, just because the Chargers are your men?

Uhhhhhh...

 

Eh. Solas is trying to remove the veil and kill millions of people as a result. They are not remotely the same.

 

The qunari die because they wanted to control every aspect of the mission and not let their allies have any input (I'd brought along a few templars and those mages would've been a non issue but nooooo the qunari must control everything) Solas on the other hand is some deluded elven spirit thing that wants to turn back the clock even if he destroys the current world to do so.