657 réponses à ce sujet

[Illyria]

Bull does not turn on the inquisitor if the chargers are saved.  Solas turns on the inquisitor no matter what.

 

Solas, like Bull, always had his own agenda.  Think of Solas like being the player character, and his main quest is 'save the world'.  He destroyed his world.  It was unintentional and he did it to save everyone, but he still destroyed it.  As Cole says 'you didn't do it to be right, you did it to save them.'  If we had Solas' mission as the player we wouldn't even think twice about it (and, if you sided with the mages, then you didn't think twice about it in the game itself).  I'm not saying I agree with Solas (I think his plan is terrible and completely wrong), but I do understand his motives.

 

We also don't yet know the whole story of why Solas created the veil in the first place, or why he sees it as so vital to destroy the veil (at the moment all we know is that 'the people need me'.  There's also hints that the sealing of the Creators is connected to the Blight and that killing the old Gods is going to cause something far, far worse to happen).

 

What Bull and Solas most have in common is that they act without the authority of the player.  As a person who enjoys a good story I LOVE this, but I can also see why may gamers are annoyed  - you (speaking in the general sense, not directed at you personally) are used to having everything under your control, and everything outside your control is a betrayal (which doesn't allow characters to be characters).  Bull and Solas are also handled far better than Anders, Bioware's first real example of a character who acts on their own agency.  Anders makes a huge, game changing descion, but the player isn't given the chance to stop him. Bull and Solas' arcs do allow this chance.  Bull's happens during his quest, Solas' happens at the end of Trespasser (where we're given the chance to either see Solas as an antagonist or as a friend who needs saving from themselves).

 

As for the racism part - Solas is basically Mass Effect's Javik.  Imagine you'd slept for 2000 years and when you wake up humans are now an oppressed minority and ants are now the dominate race on earth.

 

 

Sorry if I sounded irritated but Solas is such an interesting and tragic character and yet every thread I go into in the BSN seems to have an 'you must go X number of pages before dismissing Solas as a one dimensional moustache twirling villain' rule and it's just so annoying.

[Illyria]

Wait, you're mad at Solas for preferring his people over everyone else... after you give preferential treatment to six Chargers over 100 Qunari on the dreadnought, just because the Chargers are your men?

Uhhhhhh...

 

Thanks.  That's a much better argument that my paragraphs of waffle.

[robertthebard]

Well everybody has a different view on things.Altho he was spy and liar i think a friend should count for something, at least in real life.As for his character...it fits his character but it still doesn't make right or good.Anyway i can't respect him anymore...i and solas..urgh.

Here's my view:

You do his personal quest, and tell him that the Qun comes before anything by letting the Chargers die or, you ignore his personal quest, which means that he's still Hissrad, which literally translates to "liar". He tells you right up front, he's a spy, sent to infiltrate your inner circle. You allow him to infiltrate your inner circle, and you're surprised when he *gasp* does his job? Alternatively:

You do his personal quest, and save the Chargers and, *gasp* he becomes Tal Vashoth, and doesn't turn on you, because you show him that friendship/people matter more than an ideology.

[Illyria]

Eh. Solas is trying to remove the veil and kill millions of people as a result. They are not remotely the same.

 

The qunari die because they wanted to control every aspect of the mission and not let their allies have any input (I'd brought along a few templars and those mages would've been a non issue but nooooo the qunari must control everything) Solas on the other hand is some deluded elven spirit thing that wants to turn back the clock even if he destroys the current world to do so.

 

Solas is trying to save his people.  He's trying to atone for his mistakes.  He doesn't see our Thedas as any more real than the bad future seen during In Hushed Whispers (well, at first.  Now it's more complicated.)

[Ryzaki]

Solas is trying to save his people.  He's trying to atone for his mistakes.  He doesn't see our Thedas as any more real than the bad future seen during In Hushed Whispers (well, at first.  Now it's more complicated.)

 

By killing millions of people. You can't just say he's trying to save his people without that bit. That's a pretty damn important part. (And part of what makes Solas so punchable to me). He screwed up once and caused hordes of death and his response is "well let me just do it again. Surely it'll be better this time!" someone needs to give him an assbeating and I hope that someone is the Inquisitor.

 

You can't compare this to In Hushed Whispers because Solas action is already done. The people who died are dead and they're not coming back. He's not resetting anything. He's destroying the world again to rebuild what he wants. (and knowing Solas success rate the Evanrius will come back, kill him and then carry on like they were before. Nice job Solas).

[Illyria]

By killing millions of people. You can't just say he's trying to save his people without that bit. That's a pretty damn important part. (And part of what makes Solas so punchable to me). He screwed up once and caused hordes of death and his response is "well let me just do it again. Surely it'll be better this time!" someone needs to give him an assbeating and I hope that someone is the Inquisitor.

 

And if he was the player character then we wouldn't even think twice about doing it.  If you sided with the mages the you already did it.  That bad future wasn't real to you, Solas' bad future (that he made) was not real to him (even if it became real without him wanting it to).  If he's romanced then he and Cole have a banter about this.  'If [Lavellan is] real then that means everyone can be real'.  But he cannot allow himself to think of Thedas as we know it as real because that makes what he's trying to do too painful, and impossible (because Solas cannot stop himself from caring about people deeply.  So he puts back on the mask of being Fen'Harel and stops himself from being Solas, and caring about the people of Thedas.)

 

Not liking Solas is fine.  Dismissing his character as a one dimensional villain is an insult to Weekes' amazing work on his character.

 

EDIT: I think In Hushed Whispers is the best comparison have for now (once we know more about his plans then I'll probably change my mind.  But for now it's the best thing we have).
 

[Matthew VM]

Oh well, I do think it was pretty consistent and IC for him to betray my Inquisitor, but I still was disappointed. I did feel like making an alliance with the Qun was the best option for the Inquisition and the whole Thedas, considering the Inquisition's role, and even if he had to let his friends die, I didn't expect that he would someday turn on me. Especially when he pretty much gave me a choice, like "what should I do, boss?" instead of just telling me to **** off and running to save his friends. Excuse me for thinking maybe he could end up respecting me more than he respected the Chargers? Or maybe that's just when I should have started losing my respect for him.

 

I mean, it's pretty easy to understand that he was a "liar", a spy and that he was loyal to the qun, but I don't think it's that bad to be disappointed that, in the end of the journey, considering the whole context, he didn't choose to be loyal to the Inquisition. I really don't understand why people were being so rude to the OP, honestly.

[Wulfram]

If "In Hushed Whispers" is killing millions of people, then you kill millions by making any choice ever. You're always destroying a possible future.

[Ryzaki]

And if he was the player character then we wouldn't even think twice about doing it.  If you sided with the mages the you already did it.  That bad future wasn't real to you, Solas' bad future (that he made) was not real to him (even if it became real without him wanting it to).  If he's romanced then he and Cole have a banter about this.  'If [Lavellan is] real then that means everyone can be real'.  But he cannot allow himself to think of Thedas as we know it as real because that makes what he's trying to do too painful, and impossible (because Solas cannot stop himself from caring about people deeply.  So he puts back on the mask of being Fen'Harel and stops himself from being Solas, and caring about the people of Thedas.)

 

Not liking Solas is fine.  Dismissing his character as a one dimensional villain is an insult to Weekes' amazing work on his character.
 

 

No the player character committing an act of mass murder isn't the result of in killed whispers. Not to mention none of the people in In Hushed Whispers ends up dead! They're still alive in the changed future. That comparison is so bad. 

 

Why do people keep trying to give Solas an excuse for his actions by using this horrible attempt at but you did it to so it's not that bad? This comparison would only work if Solas was going back in time to stop himself from ever creating the veil. That's not what he's trying to do. 

 

It's like trying to avoid having a child via murdering it after birth or using birth control to prevent the child being conceived n the first place. If you really can't see the difference with that I don't know what to tell yah.

 

I never said he was a one dimensional villian but he is a villian and he is willing to kill scores of people to achieve his goals he says this himself trying to sweep it under the rug with "no nooo he's just doing what you did In Hushed Whispers." is the actual disservice. He knows he's being a monster he admits so he just thinks it's worth it to bring his people back. And the people down south are nothing more than purposeless things to the Qunari but that doesn't excuse their actions so why does it excuse Solas?

 

He's Cory 2.0. Those fools even have the same motive. Solas just is regretful and we knew him longer. That doesn't make his actions any less vile.

[robertthebard]

Solas is trying to save his people.  He's trying to atone for his mistakes.  He doesn't see our Thedas as any more real than the bad future seen during In Hushed Whispers (well, at first.  Now it's more complicated.)

It's really not: Just as Leliana points out to Dorian in the Dark Future; "All of this was real, it really happened to us". We're "real", whether he wants to view us that way or not, we're there. His undoing his past mistake will kill us, he tells us that. Just because he doesn't believe we matter doesn't mean we don't think we matter.

[Illyria]

No the player character committing an act of mass murder isn't the result of in killed whispers. Not to mention none of the people in In Hushed Whispers ends up dead! They're still alive in the changed future. That comparison is so bad. 

 

Why do people keep trying to give Solas an excuse for his actions by using this horrible attempt at but you did it to so it's not that bad? This comparison would only work if Solas was going back in time to stop himself from ever creating the veil. That's not what he's trying to do. 

 

It's like trying to avoid having a child via murdering it after birth or using birth control to prevent the child being conceived n the first place. If you really can't see the difference with that I don't know what to tell yah.

 

I never said he was a one dimensional villian but he is a villian and he is willing to kill scores of people to achieve his goals he says this himself trying to sweep it under the rug with "no nooo he's just doing what you did In Hushed Whispers." is the actual disservice. He knows he's being a monster he admits so he just thinks it's worth it to bring his people back. And the people down south are nothing more than purposeless things to the Qunari but that doesn't excuse their actions so why does it excuse Solas?

 

He's Cory 2.0. Those fools even have the same motive. Solas just is regretful and we knew him longer. That doesn't make his actions any less vile.

 

I've not been trying to excuse his actions.  I can emphasise with him and understand what he's doing, but I don't support it because it's a horrible and monstrous plan.  But I also don't think he's a villain.  I think he's worth saving.
 

[Illyria]

It's really not: Just as Leliana points out to Dorian in the Dark Future; "All of this was real, it really happened to us". We're "real", whether he wants to view us that way or not, we're there. His undoing his past mistake will kill us, he tells us that. Just because he doesn't believe we matter doesn't mean we don't think we matter.

 

I meant it's more complicated from Solas' point of view.  Modern Thedas wasn't real to him at first, but now it is.
 

[Al Foley]

The best way to defeat your enemy is to understand them.  And then convert them to your way of thinking, freely. 

[RoughTumble]

The thing I like best about IB is that the character isn't foisted upon you like Solas is. 

[BSpud]

From Solas' POV, current Thedas is In Hushed Whispers' future thousands of years later, rather than just one.

[robertthebard]

I meant it's more complicated from Solas' point of view.  Modern Thedas wasn't real to him at first, but now it is.

No, it's not, or he'd consider not doing it when you talk to him. I haven't seen that option come up yet, have you?

[Illyria]

No, it's not, or he'd consider not doing it when you talk to him. I haven't seen that option come up yet, have you?

 

He wants to be stopped just as much as he wants to finish his plan.

[robertthebard]

He wants to be stopped just as much as he wants to finish his plan.

Maybe with a romanced Inquisitor? None of mine have gotten anything even resembling that yet. This, however, doesn't complicate things, he's going to go through with it, if nobody stops him, and he doesn't care about collateral damage.

[Illyria]

Maybe with a romanced Inquisitor? None of mine have gotten anything even resembling that yet. This, however, doesn't complicate things, he's going to go through with it, if nobody stops him, and he doesn't care about collateral damage.

 

He cares very much about collateral damage, both for spirits and Thedasians.

 

And the dialogue is gained from a high approval friendship Inquisitor on the Redeem Solas route.  It's something like 'I would treasure the chance to be proven wrong again, my friend.'  The romanced dialogue is slightly different but the same sentiment.
 

[Ryzaki]

I've not been trying to excuse his actions.  I can emphasise with him and understand what he's doing, but I don't support it because it's a horrible and monstrous plan.  But I also don't think he's a villain.  I think he's worth saving.
 

 

That's good. But villians can be empathized with. That doesn't make them not villians. It actually makes them not shallow which is nice.

[Catfishers]

Maybe with a romanced Inquisitor? None of mine have gotten anything even resembling that yet. This, however, doesn't complicate things, he's going to go through with it, if nobody stops him, and he doesn't care about collateral damage.

 

If you choose the redeem option with a friendly Inquisitor he literally says 'I look forward to being proven wrong again.'

 

It doesn't seem like this course of action is something Solas particularly wants to do, more that it's something he feels like he has to do. He destroyed the world, he destroyed his people, and he has to be the one to fix it, even if he, personally, would rather hang about and play diamondback with Blackwall. Like, the plan is mental, but I get why he feels like he needs to go through with it. Guilt is a pretty potent motivator.

[Illegitimus]

And if he was the player character then we wouldn't even think twice about doing it.  If you sided with the mages the you already did it.  That bad future wasn't real to you, 

 

It's not that it isn't real. It's that it's mostly dead in a totally non-metaphorical sense and I can bring all those of those dead people back.  Solas isn't going to bring any dead people back and the complexity of his motivations has no bearing on that.  

[Illyria]

That's good. But villians can be empathized with. That doesn't make them not villians. It actually makes them not shallow which is nice.

 

I'd say 'fallen hero' suits Solas more.  And I don't think he can see just how far he's fallen.  In my worldstate his girlfriend is going to have some very strong words with him.

 

The reason I use In Hushed Whispers as an example is not to excuse Solas' actions, but to show how the Inquisitor can also enter into a situation in which people can be seen as 'real' or 'not real' and make the decisions to end that world.  She and Dorian don't even think about helping the people in the bad future, or about the lives that only exist in this future.  Their immediate response is 'this is bad.  Lets set it back to the way it was.'  It's not identical to what Solas is trying to do, but it's the closet thing we have.  But I'm typing on a tablet and it keeps glitching on me, which means I'm not always expressing myself as well as I could do.

 

I think that while we disagree on Solas, we can agree that Yarne is awesome.

[Ryzaki]

I'd say 'fallen hero' suits Solas more.  And I don't think he can see just how far he's fallen.  In my worldstate his girlfriend is going to have some very strong words with him.

 

The reason I use In Hushed Whispers as an example is not to excuse Solas' actions, but to show how the Inquisitor can also enter into a situation in which people can be seen as 'real' or 'not real' and make the decisions to end that world.  She and Dorian don't even think about helping the people in the bad future, or about the lives that only exist in this future.  Their immediate response is 'this is bad.  Lets set it back to the way it was.'  It's not identical to what Solas is trying to do, but it's the closet thing we have.  But I'm typing on a tablet and it keeps glitching on me, which means I'm not always expressing myself as well as I could do.

 

I think that while we disagree on Solas, we can agree that Yarne is awesome.

 

In mine his girlfriend is going to stab him. Repeatedly. Obey me arrow to the face~ (she was not happy about his plan no. And she was done with dealing with wanna be gods trying to shape the world in what they wanted.)

 

Except by averting the future in the first place they are helping. Those people were going to die no matter what they did unless they stopped that from happening in the first place. That's not the case with Solas which is why the comparison is terrible. The only thing quizzy can do to help them at that moment is make sure it never happened at all.

 

XD

[Illyria]

In mine his girlfriend is going to stab him. Repeatedly. Obey me arrow to the face~

 

Except by averting the future in the first place they are helping. Those people were going to die no matter what they did unless they stopped that from happening in the first place. That's not the case with Solas which is why the comparison is terrible.

 

XD

 

Sera Greatly Approves XD

 

Currently we don't know what the effects of creating the veil had on Thedas.  Like I said in an earlier post we get all sorts of hints in DAI that the Creators and the blight are linked, and it's confirmed that the separating of the of the Fade and Thedas had terrible consequences for the elven people.  Until we get more details then it's really hard to know anything for certain.  All we know is that Solas' feelings for a romanced Lavellan were real, his friendship with the Inner Circle and the Inquisitor were real, and that Cole believes he's worth saving.  We don't know how removing the veil will help the People.  We don't know what Flemythal's long term plans are  We don't know who the people that 'sleep behind the mirror' are.  We don't know if Solas is going to have to put up with Felassan's ghost haunting him and saying 'hah.  Told you they were real' all the time.