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[Ryzaki]

Sera Greatly Approves XD

 

Currently we don't know what the effects of creating the veil had on Thedas.  Like I said in an earlier post we get all sorts of hints in DAI that the Creators and the blight are linked, and it's confirmed that the separating of the of the Fade and Thedas had terrible consequences for the elven people.  Until we get more details then it's really hard to know anything for certain.  All we know is that Solas' feelings for a romanced Lavellan were real, his friendship with the Inner Circle and the Inquisitor were real, and that Cole believes he's worth saving.  We don't know how removing the veil will help the People.  We don't know what Flemythal's long term plans are  We don't know who the people that 'sleep behind the mirror' are.  We don't know if Solas is going to have to put up with Felassan's ghost haunting him and saying 'hah.  Told you they were real' all the time.

 

XD I figured she would.

 

Oh we don't. But Solas track record so far is pretty bad so I'm just waiting for that powerkeg to blow. XD (And he really needs to take his own advice. Action is not inherently better than inaction).

[leaguer of one]

Wait, you're mad at Solas for preferring his people over everyone else... after you give preferential treatment to six Chargers over 100 Qunari on the dreadnought, just because the Chargers are your men?

Uhhhhhh...

Before anyone says anything wrong about his logic. Ask you're self this....Why can't his people live in the world that it is now?

[robertthebard]

Before anyone says anything wrong about his logic. Ask you're self this....Why can't his people live in the world that it is now?

Last I checked, I didn't have to tear down the Veil to save the Chargers? But let's carry that logic further: How many people actually live in Thedas now? Billions? Millions? Something in between? How does that compare to 100? If I had to option to save 100 people, or 1 billion people, I'm saving the billion.

[Kurogane335]

Eh. Solas is trying to remove the veil and kill millions of people as a result. They are not remotely the same.

 

The qunari die because they wanted to control every aspect of the mission and not let their allies have any input (I'd brought along a few templars and those mages would've been a non issue but nooooo the qunari must control everything) Solas on the other hand is some deluded elven spirit thing that wants to turn back the clock even if he destroys the current world to do so.

 

Yeah, about that... I've done the Demands of the Qun quest recently and, at least in the French version, it really doesn't come out like that. I had more the impression that the Inquisitor had come with a minimal force (just the Charge) to his own will, and Gatt sounds genuinely caring for Iron Bull. But he doesn't really impose anything on the Inquisition before them already arriving. He himself never said to me to only bring them. It is a bad call from Iron Bull and the Inquisitor, just as much as the Qunari.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah, about that... I've done the Demands of the Qun quest recently and, at least in the French version, it really doesn't come out like that. I had more the impression that the Inquisitor had come with a minimal force (just the Charge) to his own will, and Gatt sounds genuinely caring for Iron Bull. But he doesn't really impose anything on the Inquisition before them already arriving. He himself never said to me to only bring them. It is a bad call from Iron Bull and the Inquisitor, just as much as the Qunari.

 

Try asking if you can bring your soldiers and watch how fast you get shot down. Obviously bringing the whole crew would've been a bad idea but a few templars? Against the Ventaori? That only makes sense. 2 or 3 templars with the chargers would've made their retreat a non issue. Then of course is the issue that they don't even give you the plan til you get there and so on.

[Kurogane335]

Try asking if you can bring your soldiers and watch how fast you get shot down. Obviously bringing the whole crew would've been a bad idea but a few templars? Against the Ventaori? That only makes sense.

I do that every time. But Gatt shoot you down because you ask him that mere minutes before the operation. The Inquisitor could have come with more force. He/She didn't brought the mages or templar, or whoever she could have added, to an action which she can probably guess will be dangerous and with a very set timing. The Qunari are not really the ones to blame the most here (even if they themselves could have sent more people on the land than Gatt to assist in the battle... surely that all the sailors on the dreadnought weren't all required, five of them could have been dispatched).

[robertthebard]

Yeah, about that... I've done the Demands of the Qun quest recently and, at least in the French version, it really doesn't come out like that. I had more the impression that the Inquisitor had come with a minimal force (just the Charge) to his own will, and Gatt sounds genuinely caring for Iron Bull. But he doesn't really impose anything on the Inquisition before them already arriving. He himself never said to me to only bring them. It is a bad call from Iron Bull and the Inquisitor, just as much as the Qunari.

At the point in the narrative where we pick up the quest, Bull is a card carrying member of the Qun. We don't know that the limited force is his idea, or if it was passed to him through his actual superiors, the Ben Hassrath. If we do the quest, we do agree, but the idea comes from Bull, or maybe higher up, we don't know.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah, about that... I've done the Demands of the Qun quest recently and, at least in the French version, it really doesn't come out like that. I had more the impression that the Inquisitor had come with a minimal force (just the Charge) to his own will, and Gatt sounds genuinely caring for Iron Bull. But he doesn't really impose anything on the Inquisition before them already arriving. He himself never said to me to only bring them. It is a bad call from Iron Bull and the Inquisitor, just as much as the Qunari.

What are you talking about gatt makes it a point that they did not want any Inquisition forces to help....Just the chargers.

[leaguer of one]

I do that every time. But Gatt shoot you down because you ask him that mere minutes before the operation. The Inquisitor could have come with more force. He/She didn't brought the mages or templar, or whoever she could have added, to an action which she can probably guess will be dangerous and with a very set timing. The Qunari are not really the ones to blame the most here (even if they themselves could have sent more people on the land than Gatt to assist in the battle... surely that all the sailors on the dreadnought weren't all required, five of them could have been dispatched).

You're not asking him "If you can bring more forces?". You're asking,"Why did you say you want the chargers alone and not use the Inquisition forces?"

[Ryzaki]

I do that every time. But Gatt shoot you down because you ask him that mere minutes before the operation. The Inquisitor could have come with more force. He/She didn't brought the mages or templar, or whoever she could have added, to an action which she can probably guess will be dangerous and with a very set timing. The Qunari are not really the ones to blame the most here (even if they themselves could have sent more people on the land than Gatt to assist in the battle... surely that all the sailors on the dreadnought weren't all required, five of them could have been dispatched).

 

And they don't tell you anything about the operation til you get there. Bull flat out says he doesn't like dreadnaught runs because you're running blind and the slightest miscalculation can screw everything over. You don't tell your ally jack squat about the plan til it's already too late to modify it that's not an alliance.

 

Also you already bring 2 extra people (everyone in your party that's not Bull) bringing 2 or 3 templars to travel with the Chargers with their objective wouldn't have been an issue if you knew the plan from the start.

[leaguer of one]

And they don't tell you anything about the operation til you get there. Bull flat out says he doesn't like dreadnaught runs because you're running blind and the slightest miscalculation can screw everything over. You don't tell your ally jack squat about the plan til it's already too late to modify it that's not an alliance.

 

Also you already bring 2 extra people (everyone in your party that's not Bull) bringing 2 or 3 templars to travel with the Chargers with their objective wouldn't have been an issue if you knew the plan from the start.

Actually, the issuse Gatt says was not modifying the plan. he says he did not want to tip off the Vinatori with the numbers of the inquisition.

[Dani100]

http://youtu.be/BfxUYEiMiM8?t=1m32s

Bull says they don't want any army, the Inquisitor can only not do the mission.

[Kurogane335]

That's true. But is not necessarily out of malice. It can also be that they simply didn't knew the extent of the Venatori forces and didn't want to spook them with too great a force, and that Bull had told them the merits of the Charge. I don't know how the acting feel in English, but in French you never have the impression that Gatt -and thus the Qunari- wants to play you for a fool.

[Ryzaki]

Actually, the issuse Gatt says was not modifying the plan. he says he did not want to tip off the Vinatori with the numbers of the inquisition.

 

I don't know why the assumption is we'd bring the whole army to deal with one shipment anyway. .-. Like really oooh we have to deal with mages. Why not bring a few templars? It's the most non issue solution of non issues and we can't pick it. Goddamn I hate plot induced stupidity.

[leaguer of one]

That's true. But is not necessarily out of malice. It can also be that they simply didn't knew the extent of the Venatori forces and didn't want to spook them with too great a force, and that Bull had told them the merits of the Charge. I don't know how the acting feel in English, but in French you never have the impression that Gatt -and thus the Qunari- wants to play you for a fool.

No one said it was an issue of malice. We're saying it's an issue of control. Let say the main forces the the inquisition would mess things up. So what, the inquisition still have the scout to work with who are the first in and out of all military affairs and are hard as nails. The qun could easily world with them.

[QueenCrow]

The thing I like best about IB is that the character isn't foisted upon you like Solas is. 

 

I feel like, although the character isn't foisted upon us, the moral judgment is.  I can't recall another time when Bioware has purposefully written in a choice that seems a moral grey area and then closed the story line with what are undoubtedly lopsided and heavy-handed consequences.  Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with consequences, but when writers end a role play dialogue with something that feels like a chastisement for making a choice they willfully offered in a scene that was debatable as far as ethics, I resent the morality of the writer being foisted upon me.  

 

And as if the possibility of betrayal isn't enough, there's that final shiv in the ribs that leaves inquisitor as a Thedosian laughing stock.  

 

 

Mean.  Like, control freak mean.  And really unnecessary. 

[Roninbarista]

The thing about Iron Bull is, he says when the Inqusitor meets him on the Storm Coast, is that the Qunari are concerned about south, and have yet to decide if they will invade and address the breach. It turns out the Qunari did have a plan to invade and control the south. The Qunari disavow the Vidisalla, but I get the feeling they tasked her with locking down southern Thedas.

Sadly, I thank by keeping Iron Bull's ties to the Qunari put the Inquisition at a disadvantage. He keeps that loyalty to the Qun. Making him Tal-Vashoth, however gives us the friend we want.

I am curious about the Qunari's strong anti-magic stance and what informs it. Solar appears disgusted by the Qun, and states they reject myths and legends. Seems like another puzzle or clue to work unlock.

[RoughTumble]

First time I've seen that epilogue.  No one should wonder how some folks walk away from ~$100 and ~100 hours with a negative view.

[Ryzaki]

I feel like, although the character isn't foisted upon us, the moral judgment is.  I can't recall another time when Bioware has purposefully written in a choice that seems a moral grey area and then closed the story line with what are undoubtedly lopsided and heavy-handed consequences.  Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with consequences, but when writers end a role play dialogue with something that feels like a chastisement for making a choice they willfully offered in a scene that was debatable as far as ethics, I resent the morality of the writer being foisted upon me.  

 

And as if the possibility of betrayal isn't enough, there's that final shiv in the ribs that leaves inquisitor as a Thedosian laughing stock. 

 

Mean.  Like, control freak mean.  And really unnecessary. 

 

To be fair you only get that if you romanced him. If you don't you just get the Tal Vashoth distrusted slide which is sensible.

 

And romancing Bull after shoving him back in the Qun is...welp.

 

Also Orlesians do love to poke at people's weak spots. Makes sense. If it's a bit mean spirited it's more in the realms of "why would you romance a character and do that to them?" Sort of those otome games where if you treat the LI too wrong they go bonkers and kill you. I have no issue with that.

[QueenCrow]

To be fair you only get that if you romanced him. If you don't you just get the Tal Vashoth distrusted slide.

 

And romancing Bull after shoving him back in the Qun is...welp.

 

Well yes.  You only get that shiv in the gut ending if you romanced Bull (I never have for the record) and if you decide, in a decision you as a player are forced to make for Bull, that there might be some merit in not forcing him to betray his culture, his people, and become a Tal Vashoth with a weeping, bloody tarot card representation.

 

And it's...welp...a decision offered by the writers that is later revealed to be subject to the writer's moral perspective on the character he/she/they wrote. It's a decision, combined with romance interest, that is punished with betrayal and epilogue embarrassment.

 

I posted it not to try and debate whether Chargers or Qun is the best choice.  I posted it to illustrate that these people who leave the game with negative impressions are absolutely 100% valid in their feelings.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but the people who walk away dissatisfied, such as the OP, have a point whether you agree with them or not.  All it takes to understand their point is a little empathy.

[Wulfram]

I feel like, although the character isn't foisted upon us, the moral judgment is.  I can't recall another time when Bioware has purposefully written in a choice that seems a moral grey area and then closed the story line with what are undoubtedly lopsided and heavy-handed consequences.

Bhelen and Harrowmont?
Cullen, though the intended morality play nature of that choice was more obvious.
Not covering up Tali's father's crimes, which can lead to the extinction of a race, though of course that requires going against the general rule that coloured choices are better. Though possibly you can get away with that if you destroy the heretic geth.
I'd have counted Leliana in DAI, but Trespasser seems to have toned down the crazy for her hardened version.

[Ryzaki]

Well yes.  You only get that shiv in the gut ending if you romanced Bull (I never have for the record) and if you decide, in a decision you as a player are forced to make for Bull, that there might be some merit in not forcing him to betray his culture, his people, and become a Tal Vashoth with a weeping, bloody tarot card representation.

 

And it's...welp...a decision offered by the writers that is later revealed to be subject to the writer's moral perspective on the character he/she/they wrote. It's a decision, combined with romance interest, that is punished with betrayal and epilogue embarrassment.

 

I posted it not to try and debate whether Chargers or Qun is the best choice.  I posted it to illustrate that these people who leave the game with negative impressions are absolutely 100% valid in their feelings.  That doesn't mean you have to agree with them, but the people who walk away dissatisfied, such as the OP, have a point whether you agree with them or not.  All it takes to understand their point is a little empathy.

 

Jesus christ I can't find that explanation of the tarot cards of Bulls post demands of the Qun. It was a damn good post. Why didn't I book mark it? *kicks self* Basically it was the weeping card isn't as bad it seems whatsoever. It simply represented change. Plus the vaguely nazish pro qun card is hardly better if you really want to go down that route.

 

You're right. It is. Sometimes authors do that. And it sucks (I'm a renegade (well renegon) player in Mass Effect. How do you think I felt?) And yeah you have him betray his people the Qun if you side with them. You have him betray his adopted family the Chargers if you do that. (and vice versa for the other choice). Well maybe not betray but he lets them die for the Qun makes sense he'd not want that to be in vain.

 

The empathy of being betrayed and not respecting the character because he did the exact thing you should've expected of him? Sorry no that doesn't deserve empathy. That's sticking your hand in the fire and complaining that you got burned. It's the special snowflake status of "well yeah he should let people he's know for far longer than I die for the Qun but how dare he do the same to me!" I kind of love how the actual reason Bull leaves the Qun is the chargers. And all this he betrayed me rage is lulzy as hell. Man Bull tells the player straight up what he's there for, the player does nothing but makes his loyalty more entrenched to the Qun...and still there's shock that he surprise surprise ended up doing his job because he's shock and surprise loyal to the Qun.

 

It's like standing in train tracks and then being shocked a train comes.

[Dai Grepher]

1. Yes they were. Sorry, but the Anatan was ready to sweep southern thedas. You can't argue that.

 

2. That does not matter. Iron bull nature is dead if you let the chargers die. You're not getting the fact that you are not letting him have anything important beyond the qun. You're make him understand that only the qun is importat and his role  over his friend and family, he's going o fallow suit. Sorry, but you deluding you're self if you think he was not going to turn.

 

1. I can argue it, unless there is proof. Got any? Were the warships in the deep water? Was the Arishok positioned in Amaranthine ready to take the Bannorn? Was Tallis lying in wait to cut out Choir Boy's singing voice? Or did Vidasala just have a bunch of Vidathari following her orders to put some barrels in different places?

 

2. No, Iron Bull's nature is one of observation and cold, logical thinking. His intellect doesn't (or shouldn't) go out the window just because he believes in the Qun. He outright says that the Vidasala would never let a serebaas within a thousand feet of lyrium. Yet, she was feeding them lyrium. This is a direct violation of the Qun. He should have known that her actions would not be accepted by the Antaam, especially if they were unilateral, but even if they were orders.

 

Wrong. The Chargers can live, and he will still side with Vidasala if you did not complete Demands of the Qun. So the Chargers have nothing to do with this discussion. Besides, this isn't about the Qun either. It's about observing the facts that are right in front of your face.

 

I personally knew that he was going to fight me (as did my Inquisitor). I personally wanted him to fight me (though my Inquisitor did not). In fact, it was one of my requests after seeing the trailer. I like the fact that he fought me because I personally wanted to kill him. My Hero also has his inevitable battle with his kadan, the Arishok in the near future as well, and he will triumph in that battle just like my Inquisitor did in his. But their case will be a proper one, where the Qunari are officially at war with the south again. But the Inquisitor and Hissrad's case? Terrible. I'm fine with Hissrad choosing to fight my Inquisition. What I don't like are the circumstances under which he made that choice. I believe that Hissrad's character, in logical observation of my Inquisitor's character and actions (siding with templars, restoring the circles, protecting people from demons, not drinking from the Well, not being involved with the current situation with the elven spirits), would have chosen to ignore the Qun-violating Vidasala and side with the people who always win.

 

It would make sense for him. His role was to be a spy in the Inquisition. Siding with the Inquisitor in this fight would only gain more trust, thus securing his place there. It would also be a good backup plan for the Qunari when Vidasala's plans fall through.

[QueenCrow]

Cullen, though the intended morality play nature of that choice was more obvious.
 

 

You're absolutely right about the Cullen thing, if you mean the lyrium issue and ending.  I understand upset over that, too, though I've not made the decision in game that would result in the definitive negative ending for a situation that was presented as iffy in game.  Thank you for bringing that situation up. 

[leaguer of one]

I am curious about the Qunari's strong anti-magic stance and what informs it. Solar appears disgusted by the Qun, and states they reject myths and legends. Seems like another puzzle or clue to work unlock.

That's an issue of control of self. The qun believes a person priority is the control of the selves. Since they see magic as fully uncontrollable they beleive they have to go to extreme to control the person with magic because they can't fully control themselves.

 

It's really bs and ironically the Saarath you fight in the end of traspasser proves them wrong.