I don't think many people want the dialogue to go away. They want the auto win to go away. They want a more in depth diplomacy system.
Remove the auto win for picking a color and make people have to decide what is the best choice based on what they know of the situation and who they are dealing with.
They shoot at me... I shoot back.
Negotiations at it's finest.
Note that this would do for traditional RPG dialogue what ME2 did for traditional RPG combat; it would become a matter of player skill rather than character skill.
Well, considering most dialog in ME is painfully limited, with Shepard only having two optional behaviours - to be a verbal moralist or an amoral bully -, I don't see how we can expect any improvement in that department in the next installment.
However, the devs should definitely work on this. Is ME a mere futuristic shooter or true scifi? Because one of the many qualities that define scifi is to show concepts about technology and society that are intelectually challenging while presenting a credible extrapolation of the overall structure of future civilizations.
In many ways, ME evolved to become less like scifi and more like a futuristic cowboy adventure, with its cheap dialog, predictable plot, stereotypical characters and Hollywood like effects. Omega felt like Blade Runner, the Citadel felt like some kind of UN, Krogan were Klingons, Salarians were Vulcans, Liara was the nice, but boring girl, Miranda was the sexy chick, Tali was another nice girl and Shepard himself could be replaced by any American hero, like Bruce Willis or Jason Statham that the player wouldn't even notice.
So yeah, Bioware can avoid this kind of mistake with Andromeda. I hope they do. They learned a lot with the ME trilogy. Now it's time to put this experience to use.
I can't process the idea of a comparison to Blade Runner being painted as a negative.
I can't process the idea of a comparison to Blade Runner being painted as a negative.
I was trying to come up with something negative as a quip but I'm drawing a blank.
Look yeah, ME is very derivative. 7 samurai plot, omega is very dystopian future pick your favorite, krogan=Klingon, blue sexy aliens etc. But it was well done, so whatever.
On the krogan thing though. Yeah the warrior race thing is cliché, fantasy races had orcs/dwarves depending on the good/evil side you were looking at, Klingons for sci-fi is the classic, but wookies for star wars are there as well. The thing is Krogans got it right, more right than any of the others. For Tuchanka!!!
If I could successfully multi-quote it would have included ModernAcademics post so this would make more sense.
I was trying to come up with something negative as a quip but I'm drawing a blank.
Look yeah, ME is very derivative. 7 samurai plot, omega is very dystopian future pick your favorite, krogan=Klingon, blue sexy aliens etc. But it was well done, so whatever.
On the krogan thing though. Yeah the warrior race thing is cliché, fantasy races had orcs/dwarves depending on the good/evil side you were looking at, Klingons for sci-fi is the classic, but wookies for star wars are there as well. The thing is Krogans got it right, more right than any of the others. For Tuchanka!!!
If I could successfully multi-quote it would have included ModernAcademics post so this would make more sense.
A bit more sense, yeah. I didn't have much to do with this debate.
If I were going to try to argue with any of ModernAcademic's post, I'd probably start with the notion that a work having derivative aspects is inherently negative, especially considering the fact that thanks to archetypes, a truly original story or character isn't something we can find in modern fiction.
That's a really broad debate though, so instead I think I'll just grumble about the slight against Blade Runner and leave it at that.
True, but you can do both. With my social skills I can say the exact right thing and still ****** everyone off.
I'll also say in my table top experience people are more forgiving of this in the social arena. I'm fairly stat based in most my gameplay and I like how me2 on did it with combat. Your base to hit and competence is player based but how hard you hit is stat based. Most RPGs flip that a long sword always does 1d8 and your to hit scales by level.(usually some other benefits like #of attacks)
I see the same can be done for social skills. Your to hit is player based say the right thing for the effect you are shooting for. But how hard or well it's received is star based with persuasion and intinimidate style stats. Make it so enough skill wil pull off a positive result even if you don't have any talent in the required skill, just not the best result. A combination of both is needed to get th best result.
Typing on phone. I'm sure there are errors.
I agree that this could work. ME2/3 hybrid combat works fine, after all.
But as I read it, doing this right would burn a fair amount of additional wordcount. Even changing the system from the current model, where you can only use a dialogue skill if it will succeed, to the KotOR model, where you attempt the line and then the skill is checked, would impose significant costs. While I think these costs are worth paying, we've got a lot of features competing for the stuff.
My ideal would have a lot more word count as you'd have something like 3-4 skill levels for lines in important dialogue each with a different delivery times the number of core options, like intimidate, persuade, general jackass, empathize whatever. so maybe 15 lines where in previous games it was 3-4. I know that wont happen, and while I'd prefer a more in depth system I don't expect it as the paragon/renegade and similar models in DA work. They are not perfect and they get complaints, but they do work.
Personally my main hope on the realistic scale is they just nail down the character ideas a bit more so things like renegade have a more consistent theme. Heck have total jerk or idiotically naive be an option, but separate it from renegade/paragon.
Picard's a giant wuss. No, what we need is the Benjamin Sisko option. I want to nerve gas the entire planet of some unruly colonists when they step out of line, and gain the support of neutral parties by assassinating their citizens then falsely incriminating my enemies.
Why shoot someone when you can manipulate a proxy into shooting them for you? That's diplomacy.
Picard's a giant wuss. No, what we need is the Benjamin Sisko option. I want to nerve gas the entire planet of some unruly colonists when they step out of line, and gain the support of neutral parties by assassinating their citizens then falsely incriminating my enemies.
Why shoot someone when you can manipulate a proxy into shooting them for you? That's diplomacy.
Meh, if Sisko was really a bad ass he would have let the tailor take out the shapeshifter planet.
Picard's a giant wuss. No, what we need is the Benjamin Sisko option. I want to nerve gas the entire planet of some unruly colonists when they step out of line, and gain the support of neutral parties by assassinating their citizens then falsely incriminating my enemies.
Why shoot someone when you can manipulate a proxy into shooting them for you? That's diplomacy.
more role play less shooty pewdy pooty pls. I find that nearly everything in the mass effect series lacks a diplomatic alternative to shooting baddies.
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Hm...
Doesn't this idea go against the Action oriented RPGs and making EA games easier to learn philosophy? I played Geopolitical simulation games and their are NOT easy to learn.
, and gain the support of neutral parties by assassinating their citizens then falsely incriminating my enemies.
That was one of the best episodes.
"The worst part of it is that...I can live with myself. Computer...erase this entire log"
Forget about Picard.
I would kill for a game where I can play Garak.
Well, Citadel was like a Star Trek episode. Granted, it was like a Kirk era episode akin to Spock's Brain, but it was really good at times. 
Ideally, I'd like some Sisko, Kirk aaaand Picard action (and diplomacy) going on there. Hell, throw in some Janeway and Archer too. I ain't biased.
Well, Citadel was like a Star Trek episode. Granted, it was like a Kirk era episode akin to Spock's Brain, but it was really good at times.
the whole of Mass Effect 1 was like a series of startrek. it was a big success, therefore they changed the whole feel of startrek to something much more grim, dark and introduce a bunch of changes and new stuff with little or no build up. That they jumped a couple of years ahead between ME1 and 2 suggests to me that Bioware had no clue how give characters like Liara and Shepard and the cerberus organization sufficient development within the trilogy time frame to completely change their personalities and purposes. There have been a couple of small novels worth of detailed criticism on this from shamus young and smudboy, so I''ll just leave it at that.
Since their bizarre choice to change the style of Mass Effect 3 hit a wall, hopefully they decide to go back to ME1 style.
Forget about Picard.
I would kill for a game where I can play Garak.
Any word on if the pathfinder is really just a simple tailor?
With Picard-like options, e.g. quotes from literary writings, the people would at east learn a little bit, in contrast to a game with only pew-pew action. where they go gaga.
With Picard-like options, e.g. quotes from literary writings, the people would at east learn a little bit, in contrast to a game with only pew-pew action. where they go gaga.
By learn, you mean tortured by eye rollingly bad dialogue from a character like Ashley?(note not knocking the actual poetry, just the timing and set up for the lines to be delivered)
That was one of the best episodes.
"The worst part of it is that...I can live with myself. Computer...erase this entire log"
Too bad the series in total is a bit of a mess, and ends terribly.
Apparently there is a game called Undertale that has combat but you can talk your way out of every fight in the game. Never played it but I thought it was intriguing,
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Hm...
Doesn't this idea go against the Action oriented RPGs and making EA games easier to learn philosophy? I played Geopolitical simulation games and their are NOT easy to learn.
Mass Effect's talk-your-way-out-of-combat sequences weren't particularly complex. It just relied on having enough points invested in your persuasion/intimidation dialogue. You simply needed a lot or possibly max points to stop certain deaths from happening, like Ethan Jeong on Feros. In any case, I think the occasional peaceful option makes things more interesting. Take the Exogeni scientists mission. You get offered a bribe, and you can simply take it and be on your merry way, or you can reject it and blow their heads off, or in my case, use max throw to send the entire group of people into the wall, which is always amusing.
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