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[Kurogane335]

I've seen a lot of people linking the events in Trespasser with the ones of DAII -more specifically the end of the Act 2, when the Qunari invade Kirkwall- to assume that the Qunari can't ever be allied and must be opposed at all cost. It is understandable, but I believe there is some majors differences in the actions that the followers of the Qun took in the two games.

 

DA II : Years of vexation

In DA II, the Arishok and his men have been stranded in Kirkwall for years, when they never intended to do so. Their primary mission was to get back the Tome of Koslun, sent by the Orlesian Empire, as a mark of good faith. For us, the Tome is but a book, but for the Qunari, it is probably just as sacred as the Sacred Ashes are for the Andrastians. But the Arishok barely had the time to get his hands on the Tome that pirates attacked to steal it from him. His fleet was crushed by the waves against the land, and he had to ask for the right to stay in Kirkwall as long as he hadn't get the Tome back, since he couldn't return empty-handed to Par Vollen.

 

During his stays, he discovered the rampant corruption of Kirkwall, lost a lot of men who turned Tal-Vashoth (after all, all those True Greys had to come from somewhere !) and faces many vexations from inhabitants (especially because of Sister Petrice plots) without actively converting the population (there isn't much Qunari seen advocating their religion. Perhaps only the Arishok with Seamus, as far as I can remember). He discovers people worthy of respect (Hawke, if the player wish so) and Seamus, who is willing to convert to the Qun on his own volition. And is killed for this.

 

That's what lead to the Qunari attack in DA II : after years of vexations, unable to find the Tome of Koslun, in a town he hates so, so much, the Arishok see one of the very few people he respect killed because he choose to favour the Qun over the Chantry. It is this murder of someone who didn't deserved it which lead to the Kirkwall Invasion by the Qunari. And even then, if Hawke has earned his respect, he will hold him/her for all the nobles to see how someone should act, even as a bas (and honestly, earning his respect was being merely sensible in DA II -which was not the most subtle of the games, I'll give you that).

 

All in all, the actions of the Arishok are those of a man cut of from his people for long years, and facing with a city growing ever more hostile to their presence, while, in his eyes, he refrained as much as possible from acting as the Qun could have demanded. Being one of the leaders of the Qunari, he finally snapped and attacked. That's why the Qunari on Par Vollen said they didn't sanctioned his actions. Because they didn't and couldn't have, even if they had wished that, because of the lack of communications between Par Vollan and Kirkwall. Trespasser is quite different.

 

Trespasser : Years of preparations

In this DLC, we faces a vast net of conspiracy created by the Ben-Hassrath. The question of the Viddasala being truly ordered to act as she did or her taking decisions which were contrary to the larger Qun's demands is largely irrelevant here. What matters is that her plot took years in the making. I wouldn't be surprised that as soon as the Breach was sighted, the Qunari launched the preparations. Agents and spies had to be sent to the lands of the South, local converts had to be formed to insure their loyalty, and the experimentations on lyrium had to take place.

 

A Dragon also had to be captured and brought to the Darvaarad (which is not a little feat) and his venom exploited. The Viddasala did all of this, and prepared for her actions. She, at the very least, assumed that the rest of the Qunari nation would follow her plot. Maybe she was wrong and the survivors of her group who fled to the North were reeducated for their mistakes, but she may also have been right. Still, even if she was wrong, the Qunari would have found a way to capitalize on her actions, one way or another. That's why their claims concerning the Viddasala acting on her own as void, all in all, because whether she simply followed their orders or went too far for them, at one point in time, they had given her orders to act in the South.

 

That's why, for me, the actions of the DLC are the first time the Qunari actually use in bad faith the excuse of "he/she was a rogue agent". And it changes everything.

[The Baconer]

The problem with the Qunari's actions in DA2 was a demonstrated lack of solidarity between the Arishok and the rest of the Triumvirate, and general neglect regarding his mission in Kirkwall. They had a sizable military force, including the supreme leader of their entire military arm, stranded in effectively-hostile territory. Their response was to leave the Arishok out to dry, with minimal communication, no line of support, and no restructuring of his mission to better adapt to new conditions. This was done despite rising tensions that could potentially lead to an incident with international implications. When said incident finally occurred, probably to no one's surprise, their next move was to deny all responsibility, and pretty much tell everyone to just shut about it.

 

This, along with their failed plans in Trespasser tell people (both in-universe and out) what they can expect when dealing with Qunari: No sincerity, no accountability. Dealings in 'good faith' are practically non-existent.

[Big I]

The qunari have a major problem of high ranking officials either becoming Tal Vashoth or running their own rogue operations. Even if you save the Chargers, correspondence you find in the Darvaarad makes it clear the Viddasala is acting without sanction. Salit tries to sell out the qun to Orlais. The Arishok unilaterally breaks a peace treaty and tries to conquer Kirkwall.

 

The qunari may present a united front to the rest of the world, but I suspect they have a serious problem with internal dissent. Iron Bull, Gat and Tallis all mention being unhappy with parts of the Qun. They constantly have their own people going tal vashoth. Even qunari that are outwardly loyal and content, like the tamassran that raised Bull or the baker Solas talks about, are unhappy and mutinous in secret.

 

So it looks like you've got one group of qunari that are unhappy with the way their society functions. You've got another group of extremists that don't think the qunari go far enough to spread and enforce the qun. And you've got ordianry qunari in the middle who just want to get on with their lives. Hopefully all that gets explored in DA4.

[Kurogane335]

The problem with the Qunari's actions in DA2 was a demonstrated lack of solidarity between the Arishok and the rest of the Triumvirate, and general neglect regarding his mission in Kirkwall. They had a sizable military force, including the supreme leader of their entire military arm, stranded in effectively-hostile territory. Their response was to leave the Arishok out to dry, with minimal communication, no line of support, and no restructuring of his mission to better adapt to new conditions. This was done despite rising tensions that could potentially lead to an incident with international implications. When said incident finally occurred, probably to no one's surprise, their next move was to deny all responsibility, and pretty much tell everyone to just shut about it.

 

This, along with their failed plans in Trespasser tell people (both in-universe and out) what they can expect when dealing with Qunari: No sincerity, no accountability. Dealings in 'good faith' are practically non-existent.

I don't see any malicious intents in the way the Qunari in Par Vollen let the situation rot in Kirkwall. The thing is, the Arishok -one of the three supreme leaders of the Qunari- was tasked with the retrieval of the Tome of Koslun. To this end, he was given a formidable force, comprised of his Antaam and at the very least some Ben-Hassrath. The Qun being what it is, his sole duty in Kirkwall was to get back the Tome. His inability to do so obviously meant that, should he came back empty-handed, he would have had to be re-educated and would lose his position, something that he may have agreed with on a philosophical level but not a personal one.Should he had asked for reinforcement, the ending would have been the same. His one and only way to remain the Arishok was to get back the Tome of Koslun with the forces he had under his command and nothing else, without waging war against the City-State, and thus the rest of Thedas. Also, we should remember that sending more forces so far in the South could probably have been seen as a waste of resources... or the Qunari couldn't deploy more soldiers there because the one commanding the Antaam was stuck in Kirkwall, unable to debate with the Arigena and the Ariqun.

 

But after years of vexation, the Arishok snapped, because he was no closer to achieving his duty. I think he assumed that, should he managed to conquer Kirkwall and retrieve the Tome of Koslun, the other two members of the Triumvirate, and whoever as the power to demote an Arishok would let things slide he would have been allowed to keep his position. But I think that even him knew that, at that point, it was wishful thinking, since he knew that the Qunari weren't ready yet to another war against the whole of Thedas.

 

To the contrary, in Trespasser, the actions of the Viddasala had to be sanctioned, at least at one point in time. Perhaps that Dragon's Breath went too far at some point in the way it carried it (the Qun had perhaps only asked for the death of some influential lords and not the death of all, as an example) but in the end, the leaders had given their approval before. Obviously, being Qunari, it makes the claim that Dragon's Breath was not sanctioned dubious, but it isn't more dubious than the Imperium not sanctioning the Venatori, if only by looking at the other way. Had the Venatori destroyed the South and brought it back under Tevinter's rule, I'm certain that the Archon would have been more than pleased to bend the knee before Corypheus, for instance.

 

Other wouldn't have, because there is factions inside the Imperium. But I think that Big I is right to assume that such factions exists inside the Qun, even if in a less formal way.

[Wulfram]

Lets not forget DAO

Alistair: So I suppose once I'm actually king I could end up in negotiations with the Qunari one day.
Sten: My people do not negotiate.
Alistair: What do you mean? They negotiated a peace treaty after the war, and as far as I know they've kept to its terms.
Sten: They signed a piece of paper. But only because they knew that you believed in it.
Alistair: And what is the difference between that and negotiating?
Sten: They stopped fighting for their own reasons. And they will resume it again, one day. The agreement means nothing to them.
Alistair: But I thought you said your people believed in honor.
Sten: They do. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our warships back to your shores.

[vertigomez]

*devours delicious qunari meta*

While the Arishok and the Viddasala had different motivations (and, err, different levels of sanctioning), I don't think this means there's ever going to be a circumstance where the Qunari are "trustworthy". They're only trustworthy in the sense that they're... reliable. You can rely on them to bite you in the ass. Like the banter above demonstrates, the Qun supercedes ANY kind of accord with the bas.

I don't even think you can consider an alliance with the Qunari akin to a marriage of convenience. There's no commitment [to anything except the eventual conversion of the whole of Thedas ].

[Wulfram]

To be fair to the Qunari, they're not the Scorpion in the fable of the Scorpion and the Frog. They won't sting you mid-swim and drown you both, they'll wait until you've reached the shore.

[The Baconer]

I don't see any malicious intents in the way the Qunari in Par Vollen let the situation rot in Kirkwall. The thing is, the Arishok -one of the three supreme leaders of the Qunari- was tasked with the retrieval of the Tome of Koslun. To this end, he was given a formidable force, comprised of his Antaam and at the very least some Ben-Hassrath. The Qun being what it is, his sole duty in Kirkwall was to get back the Tome. His inability to do so obviously meant that, should he came back empty-handed, he would have had to be re-educated and would lose his position, something that he may have agreed with on a philosophical level but not a personal one.Should he had asked for reinforcement, the ending would have been the same. His one and only way to remain the Arishok was to get back the Tome of Koslun with the forces he had under his command and nothing else, without waging war against the City-State, and thus the rest of Thedas. Also, we should remember that sending more forces so far in the South could probably have been seen as a waste of resources... or the Qunari couldn't deploy more soldiers there because the one commanding the Antaam was stuck in Kirkwall, unable to debate with the Arigena and the Ariqun.

 

That's the thing, his sizable force became pretty much useless for the mission at hand. The Tome was lost to the seedy underbelly of Kirkwall, which effectively placed it firmly outside the Antaam's area of expertise and mindset; his was a hammer for a task that required a scalpel. Instead of sending in covert agents that were better equipped to comb the underworld of the city, they left the Arishok to sit around for years with a force ill-suited for the objective, and further bound by politics. If anything, the might of his forces became more of a liability time and time again.

 

In this case, it's (probably) not malicious intent, but a rather concerning lack of good sense and competence, which the Qunari will then go to any length not to own up to. Indeed, as Big I stated, it would hint at the Qunari being more fractured than we would initially believe. The consequences of this have brought harm (or potential harm on a colossal scope) to the other nations of Thedas multiple times by now, but as far as we know the Qunari have no intent to change their practices.

 

Thus, for everyone who is not Qunari... there is only one way to deal with the Qunari.

[Kurogane335]

Well, if the Viscount had helped the Qunari to discover the Tome of Koslun, things would have turned quite differently. So, there isn't one way to deal with the Qunari in my book, just like there is not just one way to deal with Tevinter, or the Chantry, or the Circles/Templar order.

 

But the main difficulty with dealing with the Qunari is that they have a very unique mindset, which makes them quite hard to understand and thus deal with in a more profitable way. So far, the belief of the others nations being kabethari is firmly ingrained into the beliefs of the Qunari. But it is hard to believe that should some Kingdoms/Organizations had actually managed to help the Qunari like Kirkwall could have, perhaps things would have changed. Despite all their claims, the Qun is an evolving force, otherwise it wouldn't have survived its extension to other species and cultures.

[The Baconer]

Well, if the Viscount had helped the Qunari to discover the Tome of Koslun, things would have turned quite differently. 

 

Would it have gone differently? Dumar was little more than a figurehead, able to promise little more than searches and questioning by the city guard, things which he was under absolutely no obligation to do anyhow. The Arishok and his men were already granted shelter, and I assume food and water. Can the Qunari at least be expected to settle their own business in a timely and efficient manner? 

 

 

But the main difficulty with dealing with the Qunari is that they have a very unique mindset, which makes them quite hard to understand and thus deal with in a more profitable way. So far, the belief of the others nations being kabethari is firmly ingrained into the beliefs of the Qunari. But it is hard to believe that should some Kingdoms/Organizations had actually managed to help the Qunari like Kirkwall could have, perhaps things would have changed. Despite all their claims, the Qun is an evolving force, otherwise it wouldn't have survived its extension to other species and cultures.

 

Why would anyone want to help the Qunari? As it has been proven time and time again, it is not a gesture that goes both ways. Hell, the head of the Andrastian religion, along with the monarchs of the various kingdoms, almost got blown to smithereens. The Qunari, at best (assuming they weren't just complicit), looked the other way. So, **** the helping hands, and **** their unique mindset. Peaceful interactions can begin when their backs have been broken.  

[Kurogane335]

If Dumar can't help them to get them out of his city quicker, he deserves what happened to him and Kirkwall. So far, in none of the game have I seen the Qunari being the aggressors. Not in DA II and not in Trespasser, where they react against the very inability of the South to even spot the freakin God wanting to destroy them all.

 

And, may I ask what the Chantry ever did to try to normalize the relations with the Qunari ? Nothing. Just like it did nothing to normalize the relations with Tevinter. The Qun is no more aggressive than a Chuch which has launched several Exalted Marches to destroy whole cultures. If you say that the Qunari can't work with anyone without betraying them, I can say the same of Tevinter, or Orlais or more largely the Chantry. They are all hegemonic powers wanting to expand and control everything. But at least, in the Qun, the masses aren't left to die of hunger so the powerful may become more powerful. That's a plus.

[The Baconer]

If Dumar can't help them to get them out of his city quicker, he deserves what happened to him and Kirkwall. So far, in none of the game have I seen the Qunari being the aggressors. Not in DA II and not in Trespasser, where they react against the very inability of the South to even spot the freakin God wanting to destroy them all.

Uh, in Trespasser they totally were.

But I agree, if you mess around with the Qunari instead of simply destroying them when you can, you deserve the Qamek.

And, may I ask what the Chantry ever did to try to normalize the relations with the Qunari ? Nothing. Just like it did nothing to normalize the relations with Tevinter.

The treaties.

[Kurogane335]

No. The treaties were a solution chosen because they couldn't sustain their policy of total war. It was not a choice in good faith. It was simply the South bedding its time to renew the war.The Chantry has proven it by supporting the mass murder of the Rivain citizens who had converted to the Qun.

 

And in Trespasser, the Qunari are acting because of the total inability of the South to even see that they are threatening again by some would-be god. They are just as much saving their own skins than invading the South, at that point. The Qunari hadn't sent their armies against Orlaïs and Ferelden, or the Free Marches, at least not yet in Trespasser. And trying to avoid the Destruction of the World isn't equal to being the aggressor.

 

Now Solas, on the other hand... here is the one who's a real danger and can't be reasoned with.

[Leo]

Well, if the Viscount had helped the Qunari to discover the Tome of Koslun, things would have turned quite differently. So, there isn't one way to deal with the Qunari in my book, just like there is not just one way to deal with Tevinter, or the Chantry, or the Circles/Templar order.

 

I'm sure Viscount Dumar would've loved to have Hawke help the Qunari get their book and leave, but nobody (aside from Isabela and the Qunari) even knew that the Qunari were looking for their book because the Qunari didn't say jack about why they weren't leaving.

[The Baconer]

No. The treaties were a solution chosen because they couldn't sustain their policy of total war. It was not a choice in good faith. It was simply the South bedding its time to renew the war.The Chantry has proven it by supporting the mass murder of the Rivain citizens who had converted to the Qun.

 

That is why both sides signed it, yes. It could have been a place to start, but the Qunari would rather blow everyone up.

 

 

And in Trespasser, the Qunari are acting because of the total inability of the South to even see that they are threatening again by some would-be god. They are just as much saving their own skins than invading the South, at that point. The Qunari hadn't sent their armies against Orlaïs and Ferelden, or the Free Marches, at least not yet in Trespasser. And trying to avoid the Destruction of the World isn't equal to being the aggressor.

 

Their plan had two parts. Killing Solas was one part, the subjugation of Thedas was the other. They are, emphatically, an aggressor in Trespasser. 

[Gervaise]

The Viddesala says quite emphatically that they put the majority of the plan into operation the moment they saw the Breach.    This was sanctioned by Par Vollen.   She could never have achieved as much as she did without the resources that implies.   That ex-Templar also confirms that the majority of the mission was approved but then the Viddesala exceeded her remit when she started experimentation on Saarabas.    It was probably this fact alone that allowed her superiors to claim she was acting on her own initiative.  Basically classic equivocation.

 

At the same time they ordered Iron Bull to make contact with the people seemingly trying to control the Breach.    They then used the mission with the red lyrium to test his loyalty.   This either resulted in him becoming Tal-Vashoth or confirmed him in loyalty.   If the latter then I assume from then on he would be not only passing messages but also liaising with their agents within the Inquisition.     The only thing that surprises me is that Iron Bull is always going on about how observant he is and yet he never picked up the tale tell signs of Qunari spies within the organisation even though he was now Tal-Vashoth.   May be he did but was still loyal enough not to say anything be because he didn't want to drop old comrades in it.     

 

The other thing that I am slightly puzzled about was how the Viddesala discovered that it was Solas' orb that was given to Corypheus, since he says it was given via one of his agents.   Was that only after chasing him round the Crossroads or did they know even before it blew up the Conclave?      

 

To my mind the Qunari have been very consistent in their actions.    They don't consider it dishonourable to deceive Bas and everyone who knows them, from Sten, through Fenris to Iron Bull have always maintained they were just biding their time before they launched another major assault.

[LightningPoodle]

If Dumar can't help them to get them out of his city quicker, he deserves what happened to him and Kirkwall. So far, in none of the game have I seen the Qunari being the aggressors. Not in DA II and not in Trespasser, where they react against the very inability of the South to even spot the freakin God wanting to destroy them all.

 

And, may I ask what the Chantry ever did to try to normalize the relations with the Qunari ? Nothing. Just like it did nothing to normalize the relations with Tevinter. The Qun is no more aggressive than a Chuch which has launched several Exalted Marches to destroy whole cultures. If you say that the Qunari can't work with anyone without betraying them, I can say the same of Tevinter, or Orlais or more largely the Chantry. They are all hegemonic powers wanting to expand and control everything. But at least, in the Qun, the masses aren't left to die of hunger so the powerful may become more powerful. That's a plus.

 

Bas ebadim qalaba, ebsaam asit tal-eb.

 

Edit:

 

Translation =

Spoiler

These foreigners are cattle. Our way is better and inevitable.

[Kurogane335]

Bas ebadim qalaba, ebsaam asit tal-eb.

 

Edit:

 

Translation =

Spoiler

These foreigners are cattle. Our way is better and inevitable.

True. But how is it different than the way the Imperium or the Orlesian Chantry operate ? The truth is that it isn't. The Imperium believe that its way is the one true way, just like the Orlesian Chantry does, and all those groups operate to reign supreme in the end. That's why I really don't understand the hatred toward the Qun, when there is powers far worse just there... like Tevinter.

[The Baconer]

True. But how is it different than the way the Imperium or the Orlesian Chantry operate ? The truth is that it isn't. The Imperium believe that its way is the one true way, just like the Orlesian Chantry does, and all those groups operate to reign supreme in the end. That's why I really don't understand the hatred toward the Qun, when there is powers far worse just there... like Tevinter.

 

The Qunari are... pretty much more successful than anyone else at the prospect of total conquest.

 

Well, then there's the Qamek+Saarebas (New look, same great slavery taste!), breeding programs, splitting up families, re-education etc.

[LightningPoodle]

True. But how is it different than the way the Imperium or the Orlesian Chantry operate ? The truth is that it isn't. The Imperium believe that its way is the one true way, just like the Orlesian Chantry does, and all those groups operate to reign supreme in the end. That's why I really don't understand the hatred toward the Qun, when there is powers far worse just there... like Tevinter.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I support the Qunari and Qun. If I lived in Thedas, I would want to be born under the Qun, and if that weren't possible, I'd convert.

I wrote that as more of a statement, meaning that no one will understand, but it doesn't matter.

[Heimdall]

True. But how is it different than the way the Imperium or the Orlesian Chantry operate ? The truth is that it isn't. The Imperium believe that its way is the one true way, just like the Orlesian Chantry does, and all those groups operate to reign supreme in the end. That's why I really don't understand the hatred toward the Qun, when there is powers far worse just there... like Tevinter.

Because their philosophy is the most opposed to western cultural norms, I expect is why. Its less about what they do than what they are. Western culture is highly individualistic, whereas the Qun is a collectivist philosophy. Tevinter and the Chantry offer a glimmer of familiarity and the belief the things can get better. By contrast, future under the Qun summons to mind a 1984 nightmare.

[fizzypop]

I don't get how anyone can argue anything other than the Qunari are about their own supremacy to the point they would rather their entire race be slaughtered than to actually cooperate 100% with anyone. No matter what they will break an agreement as soon as it is convenient for them to do so. It is like trusting kids with the cookie jar. If you expect the cookies to be there, you don't have a clue.

[fizzypop]

True. But how is it different than the way the Imperium or the Orlesian Chantry operate ? The truth is that it isn't. The Imperium believe that its way is the one true way, just like the Orlesian Chantry does, and all those groups operate to reign supreme in the end. That's why I really don't understand the hatred toward the Qun, when there is powers far worse just there... like Tevinter.

The difference is they can and WILL hold their agreements. Small failures will not be met with backs. If you don't do exactly as the Qunari want they will not help you. Their help is literally to be smacked in the face after they are done. The imperium didn't attack the south (recently), the Qunari DID. Though to be honest I hate all of the government in Thedas. They are all terrible with shitty as **** leaders,...almost creepy how life like that is.

[spinachdiaper]

The Qunari are the Geth of Dragon Age, in which you can reason with them at times but ultimately Bioware is going to slot them as adversarial bad guys no matter what.

[Kurogane335]

Because their philosophy is the most opposed to western cultural norms, I expect is why. Its less about what they do than what they are. Western culture is highly individualistic, whereas the Qun is a collectivist philosophy. Tevinter and the Chantry offer a glimmer of familiarity and the belief the things can get better. By contrast, future under the Qun summons to mind a 1984 nightmare.

 

It's more opposed to Right-wing Western cultural norm, where individuality and the privileges of the few are placed above the well being of everything else. For someone like him, of the Left, it is closer than Tevinter, or Orlais, or the Chantry to the values of the Western World. The Qun has it flaws, but it is not a dictatorship. It actually care more for its people than any other nations. It is the one and only which ensure that its people won't die of starvation because of some merchant hoarding food to make the prices go higher, and that's just an example.