Oh, don't get me wrong. I support the Qunari and Qun. If I lived in Thedas, I would want to be born under the Qun, and if that weren't possible, I'd convert.
I wrote that as more of a statement, meaning that no one will understand, but it doesn't matter.
You'd... Want to be a slave?
More like he'd want to be cared for, belonging in a society, not left to rot because you can't "fit in". There is no slave in the Qun. There is people all working for the greater well being of all. You don't have to earn money to buy food and clothes. You do your duty and they are all provided to you, according to your need. And if you want more furniture, food and goods, you have to work more to maintain it. It's up to you.
A society with slavery is the one where absolute freedom was allowed for a time, because those who are "better" (whatever "being better" then means in that society) enforce their will over those who are their "lesser", ending in a very stratified society geared to fulfil the needs of a select few. Instead of leaving atrocious lives because they are poor, those at the lowest level in the Qun hierarchy lives at least lives freed of the risk of death by hunger or illness, because there is other people tasked with their well being, just like them are tasked with actions which will benefit the lives of others.
Now, living in the perfect world of Solas implies that, yes, one would want to live as a slave, since it is a world were power makes right.
More like he'd want to be cared for, belonging in a society, not left to rot because you can't "fit in". There is no slave in the Qun. There is people all working for the greater well being of all. You don't have to earn money to buy food and clothes. You do your duty and they are all provided to you, according to your need. And if you want more furniture, food and goods, you have to work more to maintain it. It's up to you.
A society with slavery is the one where absolute freedom was allowed for a time, because those who are "better" (whatever "being better" then means in that society) enforce their will over those who are their "lesser", ending in a very stratified society geared to fulfil the needs of a select few. Instead of leaving atrocious lives because they are poor, those at the lowest level in the Qun hierarchy lives at least lives freed of the risk of death by hunger or illness, because there is other people tasked with their well being, just like them are tasked with actions which will benefit the lives of others.
Now, living in the perfect world of Solas implies that, yes, one would want to live as a slave, since it is a world were power makes right.
This, and I want a purpose. I don't want to go through life not knowing what I want to do. I don't want to turn 50 and look back at my life and see nothing of worth. I'm literally in university, right now at this very moment, paying £7500 a year to be here, and I don't really want to be here, because I don't know what to do with my life. Give me purpose. Give me a reason for living, rather than just give me a life.
But the main difficulty with dealing with the Qunari is that they have a very unique mindset
Their mindset isn't that unique: they view themselves as an enlightened people compared to their barbaric neighbors, among whom the "Basalit-an", the honorable individuals, are the exception rather than the rule. Since the Qunari themselves (or at least the so-far dominant hardline faction) do not trust outsiders, they consider dealing in bad-faith with southerners as a necessity of realpolitiks.
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That's why I really don't understand the hatred toward the Qun, when there is powers far worse just there... like Tevinter.
That's not hard to understand: The Qunari have been for the most part antagonistic toward the South, and every protagonist so far have been Southern Thedosians: players identify to, or at least sympathizes with the character they control for dozens of hours, and are therefore tempted to see Qunari as intrinsically evil: to paraphrases a certain bald Elf: conflict breeds a desire for simplicity: good & evil, right or wrong....
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Western culture is highly individualistic, whereas the Qun is a collectivist philosophy
Of course, the most famous collectivist philosophy IRL was conceptualized by a German guy born on the border with Luxembourg and the Georgian guy who implemented the most extreme version of said philosophy was classically trained and could quote Plato in the original Greek by memory.
More like he'd want to be cared for, belonging in a society, not left to rot because you can't "fit in". There is no slave in the Qun.
Well, except the actual slaves.
Well, except the actual slaves.
I'll assume that you speak about the people who had to be lobotomised by quamek. The thing is, however atrocious it is, the Qunari themselves clearly don't see those who have endured them as slave. They are not property of others, in fact, they have people dedicated to their cares, just like the elderly or disabled Qunari (which, when you think of it, is strange considering that the viddath-bas seems to not be "true Qunari" and a "waste" of resources, since they probably can only do the most simplistic and menial jobs, and even then with guidance.
Nonetheless, the risk of qamek strike me as a very last resort, and if someone simply does is duty and live by the Qun, he can probably have a fulfilling life without ever having to risk that, even if he can have moments of doubts, since reeducation and courses about the Qun are probably here to deal with this sort of troubled moment. Plus, I doubt that in Par Vollen, there is much discussing about wether one must follow the Qun or not, since it is the only place where it is "complete" (even more than on Seheron, which isn't safe). There is probably debates about what the Demands of the Qun are (honestly, I would so like to hear of the Arigena, her mindset is probably greatly different from the one of the Arishok, which would probably leave the Ariqun as an arbiter of sort between the two).
Tevinter and the Chantry offer a glimmer of familiarity and the belief the things can get better. By contrast, future under the Qun summons to mind a 1984 nightmare.
Dorian, Leliana, Briala, and Celene are people who want to change their receptive institution's status quo and I fully support them. I haven't met anyone in the Qun who wants the Qunari to co-exist with the rest of the world or actively works to stop the Qunari from invading Thedas.
I'll assume that you speak about the people who had to be lobotomised by quamek. The thing is, however atrocious it is, the Qunari themselves clearly don't see those who have endured them as slave.
And Saarebas.
Because that's what should define slavery: the perspective of the instigator.
They are not property of others, in fact, they have people dedicated to their cares, just like the elderly or disabled Qunari (which, when you think of it, is strange considering that the viddath-bas seems to not be "true Qunari" and a "waste" of resources, since they probably can only do the most simplistic and menial jobs, and even then with guidance.
They are the property of the state, or specifically the individuals who are in charge of directing their labor.
Yes, at least the Qunari provide the care rendered necessary by the crippling mental disability they inflicted in the first place. That is some battered-spouse ****, or classic slavery apologia. "At least they get three hots and a cot", "They are such a considerable expense, it's more logical to treat them well" etc.
I could try to argue with you more, but you've clearly decided that there is nothing of worth in the Qunari society. I disagree. I don't see the Saarebas as slaves. And the people who have suffered from the qamek are probably slaves, but they, at the very least, are all well-treated, more so than the elves in the South or the slaves in Tevinter.
But I don't see the point of continuing to argue with you. I've written this topic to highlight the key differences between the events of Kirkwall and Trespasser. I think I've done that quite sufficiently and honestly, it should be enough to prove that people claiming that the Qunari are all back-stabers traitors that must be dismantled are just letting their own prejudices could their minds.
The Qunari are the Geth of Dragon Age, in which you can reason with them at times but ultimately Bioware is going to slot them as adversarial bad guys no matter what.
This isn't the case at all. The Geth you ally with and the Geth that oppose you are 2 different groups, the opposing Geth being labeled as Heretics just to make that very clear.
If anything, your analogy works better with Cerberus. You can ally with them all your in Mass Effect 2, but come 3 all of that means nothing because the entire organization is trying to take over the galaxy using the Reapers.
I could try to argue with you more, but you've clearly decided that there is nothing of worth in the Qunari society. I disagree. I don't see the Saarebas as slaves.
Ok. That doesn't have anything to do with how slavery is classified, though.
And the people who have suffered from the qamek are probably slaves, but they, at the very least, are all well-treated, more so than the elves in the South or the slaves in Tevinter.
Surely then, a southern elf or a slave in Tevinter would take the brain-bleach in a hot minute when offered, right? We would be doing them a favor, after all.
This reminds me of something:
Paul, do you know about the early days of the Kimberly Diamond mines? Do you know what they did to the native workers who stole diamonds? Don't worry, they didn't kill them, that would be like junking your Mercedes just because it has a broken spring. No, if they caught them, they had to make sure they could go on working, but they also had to make sure they could never run away. The operation was called Hobbling.
*breaks Paul's ankles*
God, I love you.
Ok. That doesn't have anything to do with how slavery is classified, though.
The definition of a slave = The legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
1) Qunari do not own property, or money, or anything. Therefore, they are not slaves.
2) They do not have to obey. They can choose to submit to the Qun, or they can choose death.
3) Part of 2. Saarebas do not obey orders anyway. They follow the Qun.
The definition of a slave = The legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
1) Qunari do not own property, or money, or anything. Therefore, they are not slaves.
They are property of the state. Like the Viddath-bas, they are effectively the property of those who manage their operations and movements.
2) They do not have to obey. They can choose to submit to the Qun, or they can choose death.
Right, just like a slave in Tevinter can quit being a slave whenever they want. They only need to relieve themselves of their mortal existence, or let someone do it for them.
And now we've proven that there are no slaves in Tevinter.
3) Part of 2. Saarebas do not obey orders anyway. They follow the Qun.
Well, that is just demonstrably false. You weren't even trying here.
Well, that is just demonstrably false. You weren't even trying here.
The Qun is not a list a rules or orders. It is their very way of life. What they must do to essentially live. Qunari following the Qun is like any other person breathing air.
And the people who have suffered from the qamek are probably slaves, but they, at the very least, are all well-treated, more so than the elves in the South or the slaves in Tevinter.
Saar-qamek removes peoples' memories which may sound desirable to people suffering from traumatic memories, yes, but it also removes other mental faculties essentially rendering a person basically mindless and it is not applied only on former slaves and it is not applied in accordance to that person's desires. The saar-qamek is used on those who rejects conversion including all captured mages who are deemed hopeless by default. The saar-qamek is used to effectively lobotimise people so that they'll be what the Qun want or believe they need to be.*
As far as I know it is also irreversible meaning that the unwilling victims of the saar-qamek will never be able to recover from what was done to them.
Considering that the loss of their mental faculties are so severe that they are apparently unable to take care of themselves properly down to their basic need, treating them well may as well be out of necessity as out of kindness.
Say the owner of a slave performs blood magic on the mind of said slave without consent to such a degree that they are effectively lobotimized. The owner keeps the slave in their employ and has them perform tasks but treats them better in comparison to how some other slave owners treats their slave. Whatever kindness the owner may show to the slave does not diminish the cruelty of what they did to said slave.
*Reference: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qamek
The Qun is not a list a rules or orders. It is their very way of life. What they must do to essentially live. Qunari following the Qun is like any other person breathing air.
I can appreciate your effort to try and explain it in-character, but that isn't actually a rebuttal.
Why would anyone want to help the Qunari? As it has been proven time and time again, it is not a gesture that goes both ways. Hell, the head of the Andrastian religion, along with the monarchs of the various kingdoms, almost got blown to smithereens. The Qunari, at best (assuming they weren't just complicit), looked the other way. So, **** the helping hands, and **** their unique mindset. Peaceful interactions can begin when their backs have been broken.
The definition of a slave = The legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
There are more than one valid definition of a slave:
Slave
- A person held in servitude as the chattel of another
- A person who is completely subservient to a dominating influence
Slave
1. One who is owned as the property of someone else, especially in involuntary servitude
2. One who is subservient to or controlled by another.
3. One who is subject to or controlled by a specified influence
Slave
1 (Especially in the past) a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them
1.2 A person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something.
The Oxford dictionary puts the origin of the word as such: Middle English: shortening of Old French esclave, equivalent of medieval Latin sclava (feminine) 'Slavonic (captive)': the Slavonic peoples have been reduced to a servile state by conquest in the 9th century.
A lot of people may be more familiar with slavery as legal slavery in which a someone being reduced to a something by the means of becoming someone else's property in the eyes of that someone else or by the law but there are other forms of slavery besides legal slavery.
I don't believe for a second that the Trespasser plan was an unsanctionned operation.
First, the ressources put into it are massive. Antaam warriors and Ben-Hassrath agents by the dozens if not hundreds. Spies that can infiltrate the Council, the Inquisition and pretty much every Southern court. Absurd quantities of Gaatlock. Several Saarebas, some of which were infused with Lyrium. Many opened Eluvians A massve fortress that looks like a Ben-Hassrath headquarter and magical research facility. A freaking captive dragon. This is almost Inquisition-tier in terms of ressources. If the Viddasala could break off the Qun with that amount of material and manpower and get away with it, the Qunari surely face grave internal problems.
Second, an Iron Bull that is loyal to the Qun wouldn't work for the Viddasala unless he was 100% certain she was legit. He is way too afraid of being Tal-Vashoth to just follow her blindly.
Third, what's the motivation for a rogue agent to simultaneously conduct a large-scale terrorist operation and a manhunt for a god? Wouldn't she want to consolidate her power, rather than throw all those ressources into these projects?
Furthermore, the bombing of the Exalted Council and the Southern courts would be most effective if followed up shortly by a Qunari invasion into the divided South. Without that, it loses a lot of its purpose. And unless the Viddasala also has a large rogue army at her beck and call, that's not going to happen under her watch.
The Qunari are the Geth of Dragon Age, in which you can reason with them at times but ultimately Bioware is going to slot them as adversarial bad guys no matter what.
Geth >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Qunari 
This, and I want a purpose. I don't want to go through life not knowing what I want to do. I don't want to turn 50 and look back at my life and see nothing of worth. I'm literally in university, right now at this very moment, paying £7500 a year to be here, and I don't really want to be here, because I don't know what to do with my life. Give me purpose. Give me a reason for living, rather than just give me a life.
Look, I sympathize. Right now I'm not sure what to do either. But you're saying that you support a culture that takes away your freedom entirely, even freedom of thought, just so you don't have to make a decision. It's a totalitarian state. More importantly, it forces this on the people unlucky enough to be born in its influence and wants to spread this mandate by violence.
A hypothetical group that went off and did its own thing with the philosophy of the Qun as its mandate, but with only willing participants is one thing. The Qunari are anything but that.
2) They do not have to obey. They can choose to submit to the Qun, or they can choose death.
You're actually saying that because they have the option of suicide-by-Qun, they are not slaves?
You're not exactly helping your case here.
But the Qunari don't take away freedom of thought. Nobody can. A Qunari can still makes choices, even in his or her service to the Qun. They are people. And no, the Qun is not a totalitarian state. It is simply, like the Church in Middle Ages, a faith and a way of living. It is no more totalitarian than Tevinter.
But the Qunari don't take away freedom of thought. Nobody can. A Qunari can still makes choices, even in his or her service to the Qun.
The existence of the viddath-bas I see as evidence to the contrary.
The existence of the viddath-bas I see as evidence to the contrary.
Not more than the existence of Blood Magic being practised in Tevinter to get ride of some "flaws" in the Altus families.
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