59 réponses à ce sujet

[Shechinah]

Not more than the existence of Blood Magic being practised in Tevinter to get ride of some "flaws" in the Altus families.

 

But your previous comment stated: "But the Qunari don't take away freedom of thought. Nobody can. A Qunari still makes choices, even in his or her service to the Qun."

 

My presented point was that the Qunari can and do take away freedom of thought by the use of saar-qamek. Your presented counterpoint seems to be that blood magic practised in Tevinter does the same which would also be a counterargument to the part of your previous comment that states that nobody can take away freedom of thought.

 

My presented point had nothing to do with whether or not the Qun is a totalitarian state or whether or not it is more or less totalitarian than Tevinter. It had solely to do with the statement about the Qunari not taking away freedom of thought and that nobody can take away freedom of thought.

 

I am a little confused as to whether or not we are misunderstanding each other.
 

[Shechinah]

"Their government is a totalitarian magocracy" - Magic's Place in Different Cultures on page 103 in the "Dragon Age: World of Thedas" Volume One. The government in the quote is the government of the Tevinter Imperium. 

 

I do not have the book in question so I do not know if the book is meant have been written like "The World of Ice and Fire" with a fictional writer with in-universe bias and opinionated pieces.

[Nixou]

I do not have the book in question so I do not know if the book is meant have been written like "The World of Ice and Fire" with a fictional writer with in-universe bias and opinionated pieces.

 

 

If it's written like the codex entries, then yeah, they added some bias in it.

 

Besides, the difference between Tevinter and the South is already established to be a matter of social class and inherited wealth: southern human mages are implied to be for the most part descended from slaves and house servants raped by their Altus masters during Tevinter's heydays, while many Tevinter mages are the legitimate heirs of wealthy dynasties of landowners. For a while the Magisterium was dominated by muggles, but given that Tevinter noble families tend to produce mostly mages...

[XEternalXDreamsX]

I haven't been able to think much of the philosophy behind Tevinter, Qun, and Chantry. From a gameplay perspective, I have made a pro Qun ally world state. It really amounts to Sten's, default Arishok's respect, and a defunct alliance in DAI (even if they intended to continue an alliance or use the Inquisition, the Inquisition is basically disbanded or absorbed intended to the Chantry) so those choices really amount to not much. All in all, there's no benefit in the end to acknowledge the Qun as allies because the instability of consequences going in a "positive" profitable position. In the end, I believe they want the Qun (not all qunari like an Qunari Inquisitor) to be a in an antagonistic role with limited dealings until they go full blown Cerberus (like in ME3).

[Lumix19]

But your previous comment stated: "But the Qunari don't take away freedom of thought. Nobody can. A Qunari still makes choices, even in his or her service to the Qun."

My presented point was that the Qunari can and do take away freedom of thought by the use of saar-qamek. Your presented counterpoint seems to be that blood magic practised in Tevinter does the same which would also be a counterargument to the part of your previous comment that states that nobody can take away freedom of thought.

My presented point had nothing to do with whether or not the Qun is a totalitarian state or whether or not it is more or less totalitarian than Tevinter. It had solely to do with the statement about the Qunari not taking away freedom of thought and that nobody can take away freedom of thought.

I am a little confused as to whether or not we are misunderstanding each other.

I don't know if I would consider qamek as stripping away people's freedom of thought. I mean do those who get subjected to qamek even have thoughts? I thought they are mindless, like zombies.

[Asch Lavigne]

The problem with Qunari in DAII is that we are only told they are looking for the Tome, yet never actually see it. Never did we encounter Qunari "up to something," or hear about them conducting operations over here or over there. To me, it seemed like its the Arishok's own stupid fault. Maybe if he had his Qunari spend time actually looking and not standing around in Lowtown, he would have been out a lot sooner and avoided tons of problems for both him and Kirkwall itself, instead of having Hawke kill him, or being court-martialed.

[Lumix19]

The problem with Qunari in DAII is that we are only told they are looking for the Tome, yet never actually see it. Never did we encounter Qunari "up to something," or hear about them conducting operations over here or over there. To me, it seemed like its the Arishok's own stupid fault. Maybe if he had his Qunari spend time actually looking and not standing around in Lowtown, he would have been out a lot sooner and avoided tons of problems for both him and Kirkwall itself, instead of having Hawke kill him, or being court-martialed.

To be fair he was the Arishok, he probably wouldn't know the first place to begin an investigation. Though you'd think he'd get round to it after the first year.

[The Baconer]

Not more than the existence of Blood Magic being practised in Tevinter to get ride of some "flaws" in the Altus families.

 

So... yes, it is possible?

 

Two things can exist and be wrong at the same time. They don't cancel each other out or suddenly become more justifiable in the presence of the other.

[Heimdall]

It's more opposed to Right-wing Western cultural norm, where individuality and the privileges of the few are placed above the well being of everything else. For someone like him, of the Left, it is closer than Tevinter, or Orlais, or the Chantry to the values of the Western World. The Qun has it flaws, but it is not a dictatorship. It actually care more for its people than any other nations. It is the one and only which ensure that its people won't die of starvation because of some merchant hoarding food to make the prices go higher, and that's just an example.

Individualism and self interest aren't the same thing, it refers to the priority given to individual preference and choice, and control over their lives or more importantly the perception of people as whole individuals rather than parts of a whole. The Qun respects none of those things and expects everyone to subsume their own will before the Qun. The Qun doesn't treat people as individuals, people exist only so far as they fulfill a function in society, that's why they get roles instead of names. It's the core of their philosophy: "it is to be", they exist only in the role they fill for the whole. Even the political Left in western society is culturally individualistic, especially when put put beside something like the Qun.

And your merchant shout out is ironic, considering the person shouting down that merchant is a Chantry priestess, one of those organizations you claim don't care about the people.

[Kurogane335]

I don't know if I would consider qamek as stripping away people's freedom of thought. I mean do those who get subjected to qamek even have thoughts? I thought they are mindless, like zombies.

 

The problem with qamek is that it seems inconsistent in its effects : normaly, it is supposed to make people, well, like zombie. But there is this Codex entry in DA:I where there is a Tevinter soldier explaining than some guys in his platoon who resisted fiercely were taken away and that some of them returned really changed. But he didn't seem to imply that they were mindless, while I assumed that what they had underwent was more than simply reeducation, but qamek.

 

Still, so far, I believe that the qamek erase the brain (or perhaps the memory, but if it was the case, surely the people who underwent that "treatment" should be able to learn again, no ? I'm not an expert when it comes to amnesia) and that said codex entry was either a mistake which was forgotten or too vague to speak of reeducation instead of qamek.

 

@Heimdall

I disagree with you. Individualism everything which is wrong in the human nature (that is, most of it) : arrogance, egotism, egoism, pride and the inability to plan in the long term for the well being of all. Because, in the end, individualism, without a strong state protecting the interest of all and specifically rpotecting the masses which makes a country alive and flourishing, lead to the tyranny of the few. That's what we are seeing in the Western World, where the wealthy become ever more wealthier while the rest of the society becomes poorer and poorer, while the economic model which rest on individualism is destroying the ecosystem which allowed it to exist in the first place.

 

And yes, the Chantry scream against those hoarding food. But what does it do, concretely, to stop them ? Not much, or even nothing if said merchants give money to the church. In the Qun, the whole society is geared to prevent that sort of thing from even happening in the first place.

 

@The Baconer

I find that qamek is a lot less like suppressing freedom of thought than Blood Magic. The latter can be used to alter the mind of someone at the mage's wish (with the risk of turning someone into a mindless husk) just to change the choices than one has done and would do, the former wipe it clean, reducing someone as a mindless husk, but by definition, it can't control the choices that this person did, or will do (supposing that she can do choices now, which is doubtful, at the very least in the sense that choice usually mean, which is a conscious decision, since they perhaps have reflexive actions when threatened or fed).

 

@Ash Lavigne

I believe that the Arishok had some elves and/or humans viddathari doing the search, because even him probably knew that full-blown Qunari would have had difficulties to blend in. Now, the game did a terrible job at even hinting at them, but it is the only explanation which doesn't make a brainless moron from the Arishok, so...

 

@Shechinah

Is it truly freedom of thought that the qamek take way ? It seems to be more the mind of people. In a sense, its effects seem to be the same than the ones of a grievous brain accident where on people is reduced to a vegetative husk, except they can walk and have at the very least some more basic functions active (the instinctive actions -breathing, walking, standing, etc. seems to be here, but not the cognitive).