18 réponses à ce sujet

[Alcarin]

Okay, so anyone want to tell me (I'm not sure I want to delve into the thousands of posts to see if I can find this information), why Branka can use the Lyrium veins to get healed and Oghren can't?  I probably should have brought Morrigan along, but I've got Alister, Oghren and Zev with me at the moment.

Seems as if we get just swarmed and overwhelmed almost immediately.  And of course due to the other fights along the way, no healing poultices. Gah.

[ijmorris]

I thought everyone inm your party could use the lyrium veins?



Whole deal here is you need to use them all right away so Branka can't use any of them...

[soteria]

Alcarin, you could try my signature for help on that fight. No question, it will be hard with no poultices and no mage. What is your PC?



I don't know what the official explanation is for why she can use them. I figured it had something to do with how crazy she is and possible darkspawn corruption. Or something... I think Shale can use them, and I know Caridin can, and they're both technically dwarves, too.

[CptPatch]

I believe this is actually one of the most significant observations to be mentioned on this forum.

_Everyone_ knows that Dwarves can NOT use magic! They can work lyrium into smithing, but they supposedly have zero aptitude for casting spells or tapping into the mana energy derived from lyrium consumption.

So how is it that Branka, a Dwarf through and through, able to 1) cast a spell (Mirror Image?) and 2) tap a lyrium vein of it's mana energy and use it to power the spell?
**************
For that matter, how are any Dwarves (Ohgren or a Dwarf Hero) able to enter the Fade during Broken Circle?

Modifié par CptPatch, 28 janvier 2010 - 12:54 .

[metatheurgist]

CptPatch wrote...
_Everyone_ knows that Dwarves can NOT use magic! They can work lyrium into smithing, but they supposedly have zero aptitude for casting spells or tapping into the mana energy derived from lyrium consumption.

So how is it that Branka, a Dwarf through and through, able to 1) cast a spell (Mirror Image?) and 2) tap a lyrium vein of it's mana energy and use it to power the spell?

Not true. Dwarves can't cast spells, but they are capable of using and even smithing magic. They use runes and control rods and magic items all the time. Branka might have items that replicate heal and "mirror mage" and as a master smith who's to say what she can and can't do with a lyrium vein?

CptPatch wrote...
For that matter, how are any Dwarves (Ohgren or a Dwarf Hero) able to enter the Fade during Broken Circle?

The same way you can turn a Dwarf into a golem. You use magic on them. They aren't immune to magic.

Modifié par metatheurgist, 28 janvier 2010 - 03:26 .

[Realmzmaster]

Dwarves are magic resistant (10%), which prevents them from casting spells. As Metatheurgist said dwarves are not immune to magic. If they were immue they could not be turned into golems. Dwarves are able to work lyrium ore. Branka's ability to spilt maybe because she has created a device that allows her to make temporary copies of herself. After all she is a master smith who has had many years to work on different inventions.

She was either able to build a control rod or found one and tune it so that it could affect all golems including Caradin.

Shale was experimented on by her former master. He wanted to turn her into a mana battery, so she may be able to absorb lyrium. Shale is able to use crystals. no other golem in the game seems to have this capability.

[Alcarin]

soteria wrote...

Alcarin, you could try my signature for help on that fight. No question, it will be hard with no poultices and no mage. What is your PC?

My PC for that run-through is a Rogue.  Dual Weapon, when she's not fighting with a bow.

It's a tough fight, no matter who you have in your party, for sure.  I know I tried it a couple of times on my first play through before I managed to win through.

In any event... that you, Soteria and all the rest for the insights, videos and help.

[CptPatch]

[quote]metatheurgist wrote...
Dwarves can't cast spells, but they are capable of using and even smithing magic. They use runes and control rods and magic items all the time. Branka might have items that replicate heal and "mirror mage" and as a master smith who's to say what she can and can't do with a lyrium vein?[/quote]
Dwarves can work lyrium into objects and it is the lyrium that imbues a variety of magical effects (corresponding to runes).  So the Dwarve isn't actually _casting_ any spells.[/quote]

[quote]CptPatch wrote...
For that matter, how are any Dwarves (Ohgren or a Dwarf Hero) able to enter the Fade during Broken Circle?
[/quote]
[quote]metatheurgist wrote...
The same way you can turn a Dwarf into a golem. You use magic on them. They aren't immune to magic.[/quote]
What you suggests would lead to an inevitable avalanche of Dwarf-usable rods, wands, staves, rings, bracelets, necklaces, amulets, etc., et al, ad infinitum. 

So, where are they?  Ancestors know that Dwarves have wanted to wield magic for centuries.  Yet ever since Cairidain created magic via the Anvil of the Void, not a single Paragon-wannabe developed such a line of goods?  Not until Branka, buried away in the Deep Roads away from any functional workshops and factories, managed to cobble together her very own turn-lyrium-into-a-Mirror-Images-spell device (which is NOT found on her body later) that is.

Wouldn't Occam's Razor suggest that BW simply made an "Oops!"?

[Realmzmaster]

If you go to the merchants they have magical items. Garin says he works the ore himself. The problem is that too much exposure and you end up like Garin or Sandal or Branka.

[metatheurgist]

CptPatch wrote...
Dwarves can work lyrium into objects and it is the lyrium that imbues a variety of magical effects (corresponding to runes).  So the Dwarve isn't actually _casting_ any spells.

Never said they were casting spells, I said they can't cast spells. We know that Dwarves can use Health Pots. A character's magic stat determines the effectiveness of HPs. How do we know there aren't items that heal but are lyrium powered? How do we know that while Dwarves can turn lyrium into permanent magic effects but they can't tap lyrium and turn it into a temporary magic effect? What exactly are the capabilites of master smiths?

CptPatch wrote...
What you suggests would lead to an inevitable avalanche of Dwarf-usable rods, wands, staves, rings, bracelets, necklaces, amulets, etc., et al, ad infinitum. 

So, where are they?  Ancestors know that Dwarves have wanted to wield magic for centuries.  Yet ever since Cairidain created magic via the Anvil of the Void, not a single Paragon-wannabe developed such a line of goods?  Not until Branka, buried away in the Deep Roads away from any functional workshops and factories, managed to cobble together her very own turn-lyrium-into-a-Mirror-Images-spell device (which is NOT found on her body later) that is.

They're everywhere. I have Ohgren wearing buckets of magic trinkets. As for not finding it, theres heaps of instances where I don't find things on corpses. I've killed heaps of archers that don't drop bows. If you aren't a master smith and can't use the device it's probably as useful as a piece of vellum, in which case I'd rather it didn't take up an inventory slot.

CptPatch wrote...
Wouldn't Occam's Razor suggest that BW simply made an "Oops!"?

No. The simplest explanation is that there are things in the Lore that we don't know about. Like what can a master smith do?

Modifié par metatheurgist, 28 janvier 2010 - 08:09 .

[CptPatch]

metatheurgist wrote...
How do we know there aren't items that heal but are lyrium powered? How do we know that while Dwarves can turn lyrium into permanent magic effects but they can't tap lyrium and turn it into a temporary magic effect? What exactly are the capabilites of master smiths?

As this work is a pure exercise in Fantasy fiction, absolutely anything that is Not already delineated as "impossible" _could_ be possible.  HOWEVER, trying to argue that something _could_ be possible because "Well they never said, specifically, that it couldn't be done!" become tedious and ludicrous REAL quick.  Like, "Well, there could be a place somewhere in Thedas where _anybody_ could fly, because there's no gravity at that location.  And this is a possibility because they never said otherwise!"

Except that the designers _have_ said that "Dwarves can't do magic."  It's why there are no Dwarven Mages.  The closest that they can come to "doing magic" is that they can enchant objects the exact same way that Tranquils -- who have had their magical abilities "turned off" -- can enchant objects.  That is, they take something (a rune) that is already "programmed" and work it into arms or armor.

The designers -- the authors, the Gods of this Fantasy world, do NOT want Dwarves tossing magic around.  But I suppose if they came out and issued an Official Statement, some people would still argue, "Well, they didn't say that they might not change their minds later!  So that means a couple expansions from now, some Dwarves might be able to perform magic!

Oh, sorry.  Make that ".They could have an assortment of magical devices that they can use to throw magic, so that effectively they can perform like Mages, but without actually channeling the magic through themselves.  Like, they would be Mechanical Mages!"

Well, they never said that couldn't be done!  So why not???

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In several ways this whole argument about how Dwarves can work around the prohibition that clearly states "Dwarves can NOT perform magic" reminds me of the original Star Trek TV series.  They had the character of Mr. Spock: cold, analytical, emotionless.  And then there must have been at least a dozen different episodes where Mr. Spock _does_ show emotion for whatever bizarre reason.  Drugged by some mind-controlling plant.  Possessed by another intelligence that does experience emotions.  Going back in time to before Vulcans became obsessed with Logic.  It was a whole of bother, just so Leonard Nemoy could kiss some babe on screen.  And ALL of those episodes came across as contrived, ridiculous, ludicrous, and tedious.

[jsachun]

I just thought she could do it because she was a Paragon. Afterall a Paragon is higher than the assembly (law).

[Knal1991]

I at first thought that lyrium veins only existed in the fade.... guess me was wrong...it also could be that branka uses a secret rogue skill, was very ninja of her:ph34r:

[ijmorris]

and another thing to remember - Lyrium veins don't just replenish mana - they work like potent healing pultices also...She's touching them not to regain mana but to go back to full health...THAT's why you MUST use them all before she gets to any...

[AlmondBrown]

All Lyrium items found or created have a Restriction of Mage. How then, given Dwarves "cannot be" Mages, does this single Dwarf somehow "instantaneously" make use of these RAW Lyrium veins exactly like my Mage, and only my PC Mage character(s) can?

Just curious.

Modifié par AlmondBrown, 28 janvier 2010 - 04:54 .

[soteria]

You don't have to be a mage to use lyrium veins, only lyrium potions. The restriction is there because only mages have mana. Why can't mages use deep mushrooms? Dwarves can't use the lyrium veins anywhere.

[DJ0000]

When in the fade you can use lyrium veins no matter what your class is, so that argument is out of the window.



I think Branka has found ways to imitate magic without using will or mana, probably through smithing as others have said.



And finally, Dwarves can enter the fade in broken circle because they have spirits. They don't enter the fade when they sleep because their spirits don't leave their body like it does with humans and elves. However, there is no evidence to suggest that they do not have spirits, so my understanding is that dwarves can enter the fade but require something to forcibly remove their spirit from their body to do so i.e. the Sloth Demon.

[CptPatch]

Just went back to an Anvil of the Void Save and tested each character by touching veins.  My Elf Rogue and Shale had something happen that drained the vein.  But when Oghren touched the vein nothing happened and he said. "Well, that didn't work!"

Modifié par CptPatch, 28 janvier 2010 - 06:44 .