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[Hydwn]

World of Thedas Volume 1 was, in retrospect, chock full of clues about Inquisition.  For instance, there was a ton of Elven lore in that book at a time when Inquisition was expected to be much more about the Chantry and less about the elves and their gods. 
 
So when I read Volume 2, I did it assuming that it was full of clues for DA4.  And the first thing I noticed was that there is a lot of Tevinter in there (and it was published well before Trespasser).  There's also a surprising bit of information about archon Hessarian, and his mother Eleni Zinovia.
 
If you don't remember Zinovia, that's little surprise.  She shows up in DAO in the mage origin, a talking stone statue in the basement of Kinloch Hold (the mage's circle tower).  Then she pops up in the Witch Hunt DLC.  It's quite possible that many players never met her, or only met her once.
 
Two weeks after Witch Hunt came out, lead game designer Mike Laidlaw said on these forums:
 

I'll give you this: there's something to Eleni's prophecies. They're not completely random. What she's talking about, though? Well...you'll have to wait and see.

 
Then lead writer David Gaider said in the same thread:
 

Well, they could just be vague predictions that a writer tossed in there which could potentially be ascribed to anything in the future. Which makes us look prescient, like we had it planned all along.

Or it could be about something specific. And you will see Eleni again.

Scary, huh? 

 
I'd assumed it was one of those plot threads that got abandoned later on, like dark energy and dying suns in Mass Effect.  But the suddenly prominent position of Eleni Zinovia in World of Thedas 2 makes me suspicious that she's going to play a role in DA4.
 
Furthermore, it raises an important question: What did Archon Hessarian know of the future?  
 
Because World of Thedas 2 lets us know that Zinovia was his mother, which means that she was standing out on display at his castle where anyone (including her presumably traumatized son) could have chatted with her about the future.  And since she accurately predicted the collapse of his father's fortunes, she can get the future right at least some of the time. 
 
Suddenly, his execution of Andraste and his conversion have to be seen as actions of someone with accurate knowledge of the future.  What did his mother tell him about Andraste?  Were any other actions he took in the nature of a chess game with the future?  Did he plan for any other future events beyond his death?
 
And what do we make of her famous prophecy?
 

"Weep not for me, child. Stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling. And thus shall I endure 'til the Maker returns to light their fires again."

 

 
 
Also, since we're seeing her again, where would the statue be?  Kinloch Hold has been abandoned now for years - it was abandoned when the mage-templar war began, also according to World of Thedas.  And that basement was dead easy to break into, and the statue had already been moved across a continent.  It could be anywhere now.
 
Any thoughts on this?  I'll admit to having only questions and no answers

[timebean]

Neat!  I have never read the books, so I am behind on the lore.  But do you think the Blades of Hessarian were formed for that reason?  To be ready for the end of the world/return of the maker, etc?  Ie, I wonder if they have been around since the time of Hessarian himself? 

 

Still...like Jowen says...anyone can say random dark stuff and sound prophetic.  Btu if we are traveling to Tevinter in the next game, as is heavily implied, it would be cool if some Tevinter mages use blood magic to make the statue come back to life.  Maybe the old prophetic witch will be one of our enemies.  Or an ally...imagine getting to fight with her in your party!!  That would be awesome!

[Hydwn]

Neat!  I have never read the books, so I am behind on the lore.  But do you think the Blades of Hessarian were formed for that reason?  To be ready for the end of the world/return of the maker, etc?  Ie, I wonder if they have been around since the time of Hessarian himself? 

 

Still...like Jowen says...anyone can say random dark stuff and sound prophetic.  Btu if we are traveling to Tevinter in the next game, as is heavily implied, it would be cool if some Tevinter mages use blood magic to make the statue come back to life.  Maybe the old prophetic witch will be one of our enemies.  Or an ally...imagine getting to fight with her in your party!!  That would be awesome!

 

I thought of that with the Blades of Hessarian, but the ones we meet are so clueless it seems unlikely (unless they forgot about their original purpose).

 

...unless it's obfuscating stupidity, or there are real Blades of Hessarian taking steps to fulfill prophecies out there.

 

As for her in a party, that would fit with some of the strange and crazy party members you get (Shale, JustAnders, Cole), but the only problem is that she says she can't be restored until "the Maker returns to light their fires again."  That would mean one of her prophecies didn't come true, and we'd be stuck with a prophetess whose predictions are bad

[myahele]

Simple: if she becomes a companion then all she'll need are people to carry her wherever she needs to go:

 

 

...or not

[Daerog]

I'm all for more information and stories about Archon Hessarian.

 

Canticle of Silence was totally true; he took on the Seven and kicked them out of Tevinter. He's that awesome.

 

He then held Tevinter together during the First Blight, led Tevinter as it fought the forces of the Maker, (mercy) killed the Maker's prophet, then later pulled a huge social upheaval by slaying the Old God priests and upper class Altus houses and still kept Tevinter strong. He remained secure in his power as Archon throughout all this.

 

The man is LEGENDARY.

[Almostfaceman]

I'm all for more information and stories about Archon Hessarian.

 

Canticle of Silence was totally true; he took on the Seven and kicked them out of Tevinter. He's that awesome.

 

He then held Tevinter together during the First Blight, led Tevinter as it fought the forces of the Maker, (mercy) killed the Maker's prophet, then later pulled a huge social upheaval by slaying the Old God priests and upper class Altus houses and still kept Tevinter strong. He remained secure in his power as Archon throughout all this.

 

The man is LEGENDARY.

 

[Hydwn]

I'm all for more information and stories about Archon Hessarian.

 

Canticle of Silence was totally true; he took on the Seven and kicked them out of Tevinter. He's that awesome.

 

He then held Tevinter together during the First Blight, led Tevinter as it fought the forces of the Maker, (mercy) killed the Maker's prophet, then later pulled a huge social upheaval by slaying the Old God priests and upper class Altus houses and still kept Tevinter strong. He remained secure in his power as Archon throughout all this.

 

The man is LEGENDARY.

 

My guess is you'll get at least a few of those stories as we head north.

 

There does seem to be a lot remarkable to him, though.  World of Thedas mentions the interesting detail that Hessarian's house was destroyed when he was young, meaning he had to claw his way back from nothing to Magisterhood, and finally to Archon.  He was a self-made magister.  That requires a lot of skill, a lot of luck...or it might have involved knowledge of the future

[Potato Cat]

Gotta say, I am a fan of Eleni. I hadn't heard she was mentioned in WoT2, so thanks for making this topic. I hope she reappears in DA4 now!

[Dai Grepher]

We will have to analyze how she would be moved from Kinloch Hold's repository to wherever she will be needed in DA4, if she is going to be in DA4. What role will she play? Maybe she will tell us how to counter Solas' petrification.

[The Baconer]

I'm all for more information and stories about Archon Hessarian.

 

Canticle of Silence was totally true; he took on the Seven and kicked them out of Tevinter. He's that awesome.

 

He then held Tevinter together during the First Blight, led Tevinter as it fought the forces of the Maker, (mercy) killed the Maker's prophet, then later pulled a huge social upheaval by slaying the Old God priests and upper class Altus houses and still kept Tevinter strong. He remained secure in his power as Archon throughout all this.

 

The man is LEGENDARY.

 

Blessed be the first Exalted State, the first and true Chantry.

[Hydwn]

We will have to analyze how she would be moved from Kinloch Hold's repository to wherever she will be needed in DA4, if she is going to be in DA4. What role will she play? Maybe she will tell us how to counter Solas' petrification.

 

Probably not, unfortunately, or she might have a cure for herself.  I'd sooner look for a cure in Tevinter.  Eleni Zinovia wasn't the only one turned to thinking stone - there are those Avvar statues in Inquisition. 

 

Come to think of it, it's fairly common.  Hawke and Merrill had access to temporary petrification, and then there were the cursed pirates in Chateau Haine.

 

I am surprised she can still predict the future in her state.  Her description of her lack of emotions makes her sound tranquil, yet she clearly still has access to magic.  Maybe this will become clearer later on.

 

The knowledge I'm most interested in, though, is whether Archon Hessarian made use of his mother's powers.  He rose from nothing to become an Archon.  Maybe he had knowledge of future events that helped in that?  And what if he laid preparations for something in the distant future?  It seems unlikely that they'd set up that one of the most important figures in history may have ad access to accurate future events, and not used that in any way.

[Dai Grepher]

Probably not, unfortunately, or she might have a cure for herself.  I'd sooner look for a cure in Tevinter.  Eleni Zinovia wasn't the only one turned to thinking stone - there are those Avvar statues in Inquisition. 

 

Come to think of it, it's fairly common.  Hawke and Merrill had access to temporary petrification, and then there were the cursed pirates in Chateau Haine.

 

I am surprised she can still predict the future in her state.  Her description of her lack of emotions makes her sound tranquil, yet she clearly still has access to magic.  Maybe this will become clearer later on.

 

The knowledge I'm most interested in, though, is whether Archon Hessarian made use of his mother's powers.  He rose from nothing to become an Archon.  Maybe he had knowledge of future events that helped in that?  And what if he laid preparations for something in the distant future?  It seems unlikely that they'd set up that one of the most important figures in history may have ad access to accurate future events, and not used that in any way.

 

Maybe she could not counter the petrification until after experiencing it, but now it does her no good because she can't cast spells. That knowledge could still help others though.

 

The pirates were part of a curse. Breaking the curse is what released them. So that's no good.

 

The Avvar statues? Possibly. Though it seems they were kind of caught off guard by it. Eleni may have seen it coming and accepted it as her fate. Maybe she knew it would be the best option for her. It allowed her to survive the ages, and now she can help save the world in DA4, possibly.
 

[Hydwn]

The Avvar statues? Possibly. Though it seems they were kind of caught off guard by it. Eleni may have seen it coming and accepted it as her fate. Maybe she knew it would be the best option for her. It allowed her to survive the ages, and now she cane help save the world in DA4, possibly.

 

 

That's an interesting idea.  It hadn't even occurred to me that Eleni Zinovia  might have predicted her own fate - although it's possible she might only get random glimpses of the future, or she might have known and tried to avoid it.  Millennia trapped as a kind of tranquil statue would have been a brutal fate to accept.

 

I keep wondering about her son, though.  If he knew about Andraste, was sentencing her to death part of some larger plan...?  Or was that his attempt to defy fate, a fate he only accepted a decade later with his conversion?  And was the goal of his decision simply to spread the faith, or was it some other goal?  

 

(Undoubtedly, Andrasteism gave the empire a cohesiveness it was lacking after the first Blight, and likely helped it weather other blights and call on the other nations to protect it from the qunari.  It probably helped Hessarian's own family as well.)

 

Back to Eleni Zinovia, it strikes me that she refers to "the Maker" though she was likely transformed before Andraste was born, and certainly before she was leading armies.  Is "the Maker" there a red herring, referring to some other maker?  Or was she a convert to Andrasteism before Andraste was?  I find it highly unlikely that she converted after she became a statue.

[Madmoe77]

I hope you are correct on both being in Tevinter next and the lore that has tilted your assumption. Dorian is a great character to revisit! Also, four games in and we should finally at least see a hub in the legendary big bad of Thedas'. 

 

I find it really odd that we haven't already seen something of Tevinter besides ruins yet. They are an active empire and so much of the lore we revisit each installment is Tevinter in origin or because of Tevinter. They've dabbled, dilly-ed, and dithered nearly every corner of the continent. Let's see their society for what it is today.  

[TobiTobsen]

Back to Eleni Zinovia, it strikes me that she refers to "the Maker" though she was likely transformed before Andraste was born, and certainly before she was leading armies.  Is "the Maker" there a red herring, referring to some other maker?  Or was she a convert to Andrasteism before Andraste was?  I find it highly unlikely that she converted after she became a statue.

 

The whole omnipotent creator and his creation myth predate the Chantry, Andraste, the Tevinter Imperium and the old Gods by far. Maybe she was no old God cultist (the cult never denied or tried to contradict the existence of a creator god, by the way.), maybe she simple uses the "new" term for the creator she "knew" about, which the chantry adopted from Andraste.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 30 septembre 2015 - 11:27 .

[Hydwn]

I hope you are correct on both being in Tevinter next and the lore that has tilted your assumption. Dorian is a great character to revisit! Also, four games in and we should finally at least see a hub in the legendary big bad of Thedas'. 

 

I find it really odd that we haven't already seen something of Tevinter besides ruins yet. They are an active empire and so much of the lore we revisit each installment is Tevinter in origin or because of Tevinter. They've dabbled, dilly-ed, and dithered nearly every corner of the continent. Let's see their society for what it is today.  

 

For as nebulous as travel times are in the games, the idea of popping over to Tevinter would have been too much (although for all we know one of the Trespasser eluvians might have let us visit!).  But Mike Laidlaw said we're going north, and the final scene of Trespasser probably constitutes an anvil-sized hint that it's the next setting.  The fact that World of Thedas 2 devotes such a huge chunk to its history and lore - as well as that of the qunari - made me figure it was or setting even before Trespasser, though.

[Hydwn]

The whole omnipotent creator and his creation myth predate the Chantry, Andraste, the Tevinter Imperium and the old Gods by far. Maybe she was no old God cultist (the cult never denied or tried to contradict the existence of a creator god, by the way.), maybe she simple uses the "new" term for the creator she "knew" about, which the chantry adopted from Andraste.

 

I did not realize that - though with so much lore throughout, I figure I missed it somewhere.  I do not that Andrasteism took a lot of cues from Avvar polytheism (reading the astrarium codex on the mountain constellation in Hakkon and comparing it to the story of the Golden City is enlightening) and that the faith was more fluid before the chantry really took hold, but I hadn't noticed montheistic, omnipotent creator-myths before Andraste.

 

It is possible she's using "Maker" to refer to a creator-god or creator-gods pre-Andraste.  I wonder what pre-Andraste Tevinter had for a creation myth?  Did they think Dumat made the world? 

[TobiTobsen]

I did not realize that - though with so much lore throughout, I figure I missed it somewhere.  I do not that Andrasteism took a lot of cues from Avvar polytheism (reading the astrarium codex on the mountain constellation in Hakkon and comparing it to the story of the Golden City is enlightening) and that the faith was more fluid before the chantry really took hold, but I hadn't noticed montheistic, omnipotent creator-myths before Andraste.

 

It is possible she's using "Maker" to refer to a creator-god or creator-gods pre-Andraste.  I wonder what pre-Andraste Tevinter had for a creation myth?  Did they think Dumat made the world? 

 

AFAIK the whole "creator myth" came with the Neromenians when they first arrived from the north. After the Neromenians split into different tribes, one of them founded what would become Tevinter and started worshipping more responsive gods aka the Old Gods, without ever denouncing the believe that there was another god who probably created the world and whom the Golden City belonged to.

 

David Gaider wrote the following about the topic:

 

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

 

Source: Here

[Hydwn]

 

AFAIK the whole "creator myth" came with the Neromenians when they first arrived from the north. After the Neromenians split into different tribes, one of them founded what would become Tevinter and started worshipping more responsive gods aka the Old Gods, without ever denouncing the believe that there was another god who probably created the world and whom the Golden City belonged to.

 

David Gaider wrote the following about the topic:

 

 

Source: Here

 

Thank you!  I totally missed that.  It makes the choice of the word "Maker" an even more interesting one, I think.  Does she mean the Maker as conceived by the Chantry, as conceived by the Imperium, or something else...?

[Dai Grepher]

That's an interesting idea.  It hadn't even occurred to me that Eleni Zinovia  might have predicted her own fate - although it's possible she might only get random glimpses of the future, or she might have known and tried to avoid it.  Millennia trapped as a kind of tranquil statue would have been a brutal fate to accept.

 

...

 

Back to Eleni Zinovia, it strikes me that she refers to "the Maker" though she was likely transformed before Andraste was born, and certainly before she was leading armies.  Is "the Maker" there a red herring, referring to some other maker?  Or was she a convert to Andrasteism before Andraste was?  I find it highly unlikely that she converted after she became a statue.

 

Depends what that fate would entail. If she is able to remain conscious of the world around her, it might not be so bad. Or if she can "sleep" to pass over long periods of time, then that would help her cope with it. Also depends what role she knew she would play in the future.

 

I think it's possible she learned of the Maker after the fact. She was still able to converse with people. Hessarian may have been the one to tell her.

[Dai Grepher]

For as nebulous as travel times are in the games, the idea of popping over to Tevinter would have been too much (although for all we know one of the Trespasser eluvians might have let us visit!).  But Mike Laidlaw said we're going north, and the final scene of Trespasser probably constitutes an anvil-sized hint that it's the next setting.  The fact that World of Thedas 2 devotes such a huge chunk to its history and lore - as well as that of the qunari - made me figure it was or setting even before Trespasser, though.

 

The upcoming comic also takes place in Tevinter, I think.
 

[phishface]

Maybe she could not counter the petrification until after experiencing it, but now it does her no good because she can't cast spells. That knowledge could still help others though.
 
The pirates were part of a curse. Breaking the curse is what released them. So that's no good.
 
The Avvar statues? Possibly. Though it seems they were kind of caught off guard by it. Eleni may have seen it coming and accepted it as her fate. Maybe she knew it would be the best option for her. It allowed her to survive the ages, and now she can help save the world in DA4, possibly.

 
This talk of petrification reminds me of a mysterious little scene on the Storm Coast. In the Red Templar area in the southwest, there's a room with three petrified figures - an elf and two humans. They're quite clearly not statues - the poses all suggest they were captured in media res. You can see them here:

https://www.youtube/...Y_uBVA?t=15m53s

EDIT: I'm sorry, I can't work out how to embed the video. I've tried all kinds of things and am just getting garbled code.

[Daerog]

 
This talk of petrification reminds me of a mysterious little scene on the Storm Coast. In the Red Templar area in the southwest, there's a room with three petrified figures - an elf and two humans. They're quite clearly not statues - the poses all suggest they were captured in media res. You can see them here:

https://www.youtube/...Y_uBVA?t=15m53s

EDIT: I'm sorry, I can't work out how to embed the video. I've tried all kinds of things and am just getting garbled code.

 

The link doesn't work either, probably missing some letters somewhere or something.

 

You just need to copy the html link, go to the top left three buttons in the window you type in to post, click the pic that looks like a green square, choose Media, paste the html link into the "media url" box, press Okay, done.

 

Or, you can type [media!] then paste the code, then type [/media!]  (note: remove the ! in the media stuff).

[Daerog]

https://youtu.be/pWjUzY_uBVA?t=15m52s

 

Sorry to make a mess of this interesting topic, but this just isn't working. I tried the 'media' button, and the typing method, and all I get is the above. The link works if you Ctrl+V into the browser, but it isn't embedded. I can't work out what I'm doing wrong.

 

Could be your browser. Chrome works for me.

 

 

 

Ah, you need it to actually be "www.youtube.com" and not "youtu.be"

[phishface]

www.youtube.com/pWjUzY_uBVA?t=15m52s

 

https://www.youtube.com/pWjUzY_uBVA?t=15m52s

 

https://youtube/pWjUzY_uBVA?t=15m52s

 

https://youtube.com/pWjUzY_uBVA?t=15m52s

 

Ok, I don't understand this. I'm on Chrome now, and it's still not working for me. But I've spoiled this topic, so will delete all these posts, and ask for help on a more appropriate board. Thanks for trying to help!

 

Edit: Turns out you can't delete your own posts. I've asked the mods to delete mine in this topic.

Modifié par phishface, 01 octobre 2015 - 08:18 .