86 réponses à ce sujet

[katerinafm]

Yeah. Bull is walking up to you at the first meeting and tells you right to your face that he's a Ben-Hassrath agent who has come to this place to let redheads ride the Bull and to spy on you in the name of the Qun (not necessarily in that order).

 

That's the brilliance of his plan, imo. He outright tells you that he is a spy/agent. People immediately react with "Harhar, that fool. How can he spy on me when he just told me that he's a spy?!" and stop to see him as a serious threat.

 

All the while The Bull, or more likely Hissrad, plays everbody like a fiddle:

 

-Appealing to Viviennes desire to lead, when he treats her like a Tamassran.

-Making crude jokes with Sera.

-Playing imaginary chess with Solas (a game that he nearly wins. Against an elvhen "god". Dangerously intelligent Qunari right there!).

-Joking about spy stuff with Varric.

-Flirting with Dorian or the Inquisitor.

-Playing the drunken brawler

and so on and forth.

 

The guy is basically oxmen 007; his success shown in the number of people who go "WTF!" the second he turns out to be exactly what he told you he is and would be.

 

In the end he turns on the Quizzy the very moment it's demanded by the Qun and would've probably succeeded if we weren't the main character of the game. He probably even knows that he will fail, but does so anyway because he was told to.

 

Without the proper input from the Inquisitor the Iron Bull is actually a shining example of the fact how dangerous the Qun really is.

 

Very excellent point. Many seem to miss or not understand how intelligent Bull actually is. Which puts more weight into his personal quest. The inquisitor really changed his life if they let the chargers live and made him Tal Vasoth.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

 

 Plus, they been together for 2 years. How does the Inquisitor not know when his Bday is?

Does Iron Bull really even have a birthday, really? I doubt that's something they'd keep track of in the Qun, beyond record keeping by his Tamassran (who I'd absolutely love to meet, btw. Cole's banter telling us she's happy he "got away" if Bull leaves the Qun, particularly the emotion he conveyed, made me love the woman. lol)

 

-Playing imaginary chess with Solas (a game that he nearly wins. Against an elvhen "god". Dangerously intelligent Qunari right there!).

Not that I disagree with your point, but I do want to point out that the chess match with Solas only happens if you save the Chargers. Choose the Qun and Solas just has one last, disgusted banter, and then stops talking to Bull entirely.

[Al Foley]

Very excellent point. Many seem to miss or not understand how intelligent Bull actually is. Which puts more weight into his personal quest. The inquisitor really changed his life if they let the chargers live and made him Tal Vasoth.

You know his leaving the Qun might be one of the most significant events in Thedas history when you get down to it.  Because it occurs to me that the Tal-Vashoth have a role under the Qun, to be rebels, he is the first Qunari that is not a Qunari, and not a Tal-Vashoth...he is the Iron Bull.

[Kurogane335]

 

 

 

Does Iron Bull really even have a birthday, really? I doubt that's something they'd keep track of in the Qun, beyond record keeping by his Tamassran (who I'd absolutely love to meet, btw. Cole's banter telling us she's happy he "got away" if Bull leaves the Qun, particularly the emotion he conveyed, made me love the woman. lol)

 

 

Happy ? I believed she was sad and that's why Cole could tell it to Iron Bull : her pain was touching is own. The "He got away" fell more like a loss than something joyful...

[Hiemoth]

You know his leaving the Qun might be one of the most significant events in Thedas history when you get down to it.  Because it occurs to me that the Tal-Vashoth have a role under the Qun, to be rebels, he is the first Qunari that is not a Qunari, and not a Tal-Vashoth...he is the Iron Bull.

 

I wouldn't necessarily go that far as they have other Qunari who have tried to find that role outside of the Qun. The mercenary in DA2, Tallis to a degree, even Qunari Inquisitor's parents and fellow mercenaries fit this role.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Happy ? I believed she was sad and that's why Cole could tell it to Iron Bull : her pain was touching is own. The "He got away" fell more like a loss than something joyful...

Why would she phrase it as "He got away, he got away..." as opposed to "He is lost." or something? Getting away sounds like getting away from pursuers, which has a positive connotation.

 

Bull's pain is that he's been forced to leave the Qun and that he feels he's disappointed those who he loved back home. The Tamassran *could* have been feeling pain for Bull knowing he's now in a life outside the Qun and how hard she feels that might be for him. Or perhaps her pain connects to Bull's in that she wishes she could do what he did, but knows she can't. She's trapped, and that's painful to her and connected to Bull's own pain, but he's free and Cole's delivery makes her sound relieved about that(at least to me). It can be bittersweet for her, hence why Cole can connect and also still read the thought "he got away" like he does. 

[Nixou]

I think you make a mistake in assuming that the Qun is evil. Is isn't more than the Chantry which explicit goals is to convert the whole world just to force an entity which have done nothing to deserve praise to actually acknowledge its supposed creation. In that respect, the Qun and the Chantry are  alike, with the difference that the Qun actually care more for the "mediocre many" than the "brilliant few" as Solas put it. And I see nothing wrong because the Qun offers a place to everyone and even then, the "brilliant few" will find a way to ascend the hierarchy.

 

 

What I find most revealing is that most people are completely blind to how similar to Western Society the Qun is. As I said elsewhere, the Qunari are:

 

• A technologically advanced society (check)
• Ruled by professors who fancy themselves peerless philosophers (recheck)
• Practicing an institutionalized form of Bourdieusian socio-cultural reproduction. (mostly check: social reproduction is mostly done informally in the Western World)
• Viewing the neighboring Nations as backward tribes enthralled by superstitions and corrupt, parasitic feudal lords (Spreading democracy at gunpoint was a rather popular opinion not so long ago)
• Considering that conquering their lands/slaughtering their ruling class/enforcing their worldview at sword-point would be kindnesses (The WhiteHorned Man's Burden)
• Harshly enforcing conformism on their own society, because their ruling class believe that such compulsory cohesion is indispensable less their own people revert to barbarity. (The dirty not-so-secret worldview of too many members of the Western Elites).

 

Turns out the technologically advanced "superior" civilization looks a lot like a perverse murderous monster when You are on the receiving end of its wrarth.

 

***

 

-Playing imaginary chess with Solas (a game that he nearly wins. Against an elvhen "god". Dangerously intelligent Qunari right there!).

 

 

Not so close: the imaginary chess is a metaphor for the way Solas run circles around Corypheus without even looking like he's trying.

Like Corypheus, Bull is using his strongest pieces/assets to take away his opponent's strongest pieces assets: Cory takes control of the Mages, Templars and Grey Wardens, takes Haven, gets either dangerously close to killing Celene or even succeeds, and what is the bald elf doing with his lone pawn? Oh shhhhhhhh.......!

[SlottsMachine]

Yeah. Bull is walking up to you at the first meeting and tells you right to your face that he's a Ben-Hassrath agent who has come to this place to let redheads ride the Bull and to spy on you in the name of the Qun (not necessarily in that order).

 

That's the brilliance of his plan, imo. He outright tells you that he is a spy/agent. People immediately react with "Harhar, that fool. How can he spy on me when he just told me that he's a spy?!" and stop to see him as a serious threat.

 

All the while The Bull, or more likely Hissrad, plays everbody like a fiddle:

 

-Appealing to Viviennes desire to lead, when he treats her like a Tamassran.

-Making crude jokes with Sera.

-Playing imaginary chess with Solas (a game that he nearly wins. Against an elvhen "god". Dangerously intelligent Qunari right there!).

-Joking about spy stuff with Varric.

-Flirting with Dorian or the Inquisitor.

-Playing the drunken brawler

and so on and forth.

 

The guy is basically oxmen 007; his success shown in the number of people who go "WTF!" the second he turns out to be exactly what he told you he is and would be.

 

In the end he turns on the Quizzy the very moment it's demanded by the Qun and would've probably succeeded if we weren't the main character of the game. He probably even knows that he will fail, but does so anyway because he was told to.

 

Without the proper input from the Inquisitor the Iron Bull is actually a shining example of the fact how dangerous the Qun really is.

 

Nice post. Iron Bull reminds me a lot of Letho, both of them are underestimated because others choose to see them as big brawny dummies.  

[TheBlackAdder13]

 

What I find most revealing is that most people are completely blind to how similar to Western Society the Qun is. As I said elsewhere, the Qunari are:

 

• A technologically advanced society (check)
• Ruled by professors who fancy themselves peerless philosophers (recheck)
• Practicing an institutionalized form of Bourdieusian socio-cultural reproduction. (mostly check: social reproduction is mostly done informally in the Western World)
• Viewing the neighboring Nations as backward tribes enthralled by superstitions and corrupt, parasitic feudal lords (Spreading democracy at gunpoint was a rather popular opinion not so long ago)
• Considering that conquering their lands/slaughtering their ruling class/enforcing their worldview at sword-point would be kindnesses (The WhiteHorned Man's Burden)
• Harshly enforcing conformism on their own society, because their ruling class believe that such compulsory cohesion is indispensable less their own people revert to barbarity. (The dirty not-so-secret worldview of too many members of the Western Elites).

 

Turns out the technologically advanced "superior" civilization looks a lot like a perverse murderous monster when You are on the receiving end of its wrarth.

 

***

 

 

Not so close: the imaginary chess is a metaphor for the way Solas run circles around Corypheus without even looking like he's trying.

Like Corypheus, Bull is using his strongest pieces/assets to take away his opponent's strongest pieces assets: Cory takes control of the Mages, Templars and Grey Wardens, takes Haven, gets either dangerously close to killing Celene or even succeeds, and what is the bald elf doing with his lone pawn? Oh shhhhhhhh.......!

 

 

Yes, because those traits have  been endemic to ONLY western societies throughout history. *eye roll*

[Reznore57]

I'm not seeing how Bull is a good spy?

If we were told he is the one giving informations about Solas , and he's the one who put gaatlok on the Inquisition's shipping manifest, yeah sure.

 

But what does he do?

He reveals himself as a traitor and gets killed five second after.

It's like the worst spy ever .

[Sifr]

You know his leaving the Qun might be one of the most significant events in Thedas history when you get down to it.  Because it occurs to me that the Tal-Vashoth have a role under the Qun, to be rebels, he is the first Qunari that is not a Qunari, and not a Tal-Vashoth...he is the Iron Bull.

 

I've suspected the same thing, that the Qunari are responsible for the Tal-Vashoth as yet another means of controlling the population.

 

Every Qunari we've seen that follows the Qun has been seemingly indoctrinated in the fervent belief that the Tal-Vashoth are mindless savages (even when presented with evidence that shows the opposite) and that the rigid structure of the Qun is the only thing keeping the Qunari from similar madness.

 

Those Tal-Vashoth who are hostile and aggressive, might be the result of same indoctrination is at work, transforming them into murdering brutes because they believe that is what they must be now they are no longer following the Qun. This likewise "proves" to the Qunari that they were correct in their belief the Tal-Vashoth are always chaotic evil and reinforces their adherence to the Qun.

[leaguer of one]

It is quite simple really.

 

Remember Cerberus in Mass Effect 2? Back then they were a supposed ally that we were conflicted about working with but could ostensibly justify collaborating with if it helped the greater good of humanity. Fast forward to Mass Effect 3 and Cerberus is utterly evil and trying to kill you no matter that you may have given them everything they asked for in the second installment, seemingly trashing all of the moral equations about assisting them for the greater good and what not.

 

It is the same thing with the Qunari, to an extent, in having to choose between allying with them (for the greater good) or rejecting that alliance for the sake of your comrades. Then in Trespasser that little dilemma is thrown in your face like a wet towel used to dry the sweaty buttocks of a football jock. Turns out that, nope, you were wrong to agree with them or side with them. 

 

This kind of "Grey Choice/Dilemma" requires a balancing act that Bioware simply has no patience for, at least not in recent times. Make no mistake, the Qunari will be almost as bad as Cerberus was in Mass Effect 3 because Bioware just loves waves of cliched enemies. 

Dude, everything about the qun we learn state they would do what they did.  No surprise. it's not poor writing. it's consistency. Hell, Bull's qunari name is Liar.

[leaguer of one]

I'm not seeing how Bull is a good spy?

If we were told he is the one giving informations about Solas , and he's the one who put gaatlok on the Inquisition's shipping manifest, yeah sure.

 

But what does he do?

He reveals himself as a traitor and gets killed five second after.

It's like the worst spy ever .

If anything, the quis was dying and any form of slowing them down would be a death sentence to them. So Bull doing what he did slowed them down.

[HopeVessel]

I'm still not sure how people class this as Bull betraying them.

 

You told him in his personal quest that the Qunari were more important than friends, and he listens and let's his friends die. And then he does exactly the same thing in Trespasser, when he chooses the Qunari over you. Which is exactly what you told him.

 

Apparently, people think duty is only more important than friendship, if the friendship isn't with your own character.

 

To give more context, the character I was playing that romanced Bull specifically chose to sacrifice the chargers because she cared for and had feelings for Bull. How so? Well in many of the scenes Bull talked about how much he liked the Qun, how he felt it gave him meaning, purpose, and how he was afraid of what he would be like without it. He mentions many times how much he didn't really like Tal Vashoth's. Not only that, it's also most likely that he had many people he cared for back in the Qun, whom if he became Tal Vashoth he would never see again, or if he did it would be in the context of them trying to kill Iron Bull. So the decision was ultimately made because of all of that, not to send the message that friends don't matter, or that the Qun trumps everything. It's because my character truly thought that is what he would be happier with.

 

Now that brings up my point that I would have preferred an option where Iron Bull decided what to do and we could go along with that choice, or at the very least be able to dive more into what Iron Bull was thinking to be able to gleam what he preferred most. So it wasn't really ideal for my character, it wasn't really a decision she thought she should be making, but of course, she did her best. Which is why if Iron Bull takes from that, that what the Inquisitor is saying is that friends don't matter, or even more specifically, that he should follow the Qun from there on out with no question, I think is just silly of him, it would be a severely incorrect way to interpret the decision the inquisitor made, and if that is how Bull interpreted it, I think it's all on him, and the Inquisitor isn't to blame.

[Reznore57]

If anything, the quis was dying and any form of slowing them down would be a death sentence to them. So Bull doing what he did slowed them down.

 

So what if the Inquisitor dies ?

The Qunari mission was ruined at this point anyway .

If the Bull wants the Inquisitor dead , well he was a close friend , poison his wine and be done with it .

Don't blow your cover in a middle of a brawl when your ennemies are already armed and wiped the floor with the Qunari army, blew up their mines , discovered the shipping of gaatlok etc...

If Iron Bull had shut his mouth , and then preach 1/those were renegade Qunari or 2/those weren't and he disobey an order and he's now Tal Vashoth , he could have been back home with more news about Fen Harel , what the Inquisition plans to do about it , and the SOuth reaction to the attack.

But he blows his cover at the worst time and he's dead on the floor useless.

[leaguer of one]

So what if the Inquisitor dies ?

The Qunari mission was ruined at this point anyway .

If the Bull wants the Inquisitor dead , well he was a close friend , poison his wine and be done with it .

Don't blow your cover in a middle of a brawl when your ennemies are already armed and wiped the floor with the Qunari army, blew up their mines , discovered the shipping of gaatlok etc...

If Iron Bull had shut his mouth , and then preach 1/those were renegade Qunari or 2/those weren't and he disobey an order and he's now Tal Vashoth , he could have been back home with more news about Fen Harel , what the Inquisition plans to do about it , and the SOuth reaction to the attack.

But he blows his cover at the worst time and he's dead on the floor useless.

1. The goal changed to killing the agent of fen'heral....Which the quis is trying to stop. They want to slow the quis down so they can kill the agent and let the mark kill them.

 

2.Because his job is not to kill the quis. Any one of the qunari agents can do that but it's too early to do that at the time they can do that.

 

3.The goal was to slow the quis down.

 

4. How can they be disobeying orders when the Anaatam was ready to swoop in and take over southern thedas if the plan succeeded?

 

5.The goal was to slow the quis down

[leaguer of one]

To give more context, the character I was playing that romanced Bull specifically chose to sacrifice the chargers because she cared for and had feelings for Bull. How so? Well in many of the scenes Bull talked about how much he liked the Qun, how he felt it gave him meaning, purpose, and how he was afraid of what he would be like without it. He mentions many times how much he didn't really like Tal Vashoth's. Not only that, it's also most likely that he had many people he cared for back in the Qun, whom if he became Tal Vashoth he would never see again, or if he did it would be in the context of them trying to kill Iron Bull. So the decision was ultimately made because of all of that, not to send the message that friends don't matter, or that the Qun trumps everything. It's because my character truly thought that is what he would be happier with.

 

Now that brings up my point that I would have preferred an option where Iron Bull decided what to do and we could go along with that choice, or at the very least be able to dive more into what Iron Bull was thinking to be able to gleam what he preferred most. So it wasn't really ideal for my character, it wasn't really a decision she thought she should be making, but of course, she did her best. Which is why if Iron Bull takes from that, that what the Inquisitor is saying is that friends don't matter, or even more specifically, that he should follow the Qun from there on out with no question, I think is just silly of him, it would be a severely incorrect way to interpret the decision the inquisitor made, and if that is how Bull interpreted it, I think it's all on him, and the Inquisitor isn't to blame.

Yes, it is. You know for a fact he's from a culture where the ideal is the people are sacrificed for the greater good. Even their friends and lovers. What do you expect to happen if you strengthen that foundation? You nothing to change his belief in the qun. Nothing to show he can live as a normal person out side of it, which is his issue with it being he believe he can't do so with out it. He even goes on and tell you he knows that if he keeps fallowing the qun he has to sacrifice his friend s one day..... What do you expect to happen if you don't change his belief?

[milkeye]

To give more context, the character I was playing that romanced Bull specifically chose to sacrifice the chargers because she cared for and had feelings for Bull. How so? Well in many of the scenes Bull talked about how much he liked the Qun, how he felt it gave him meaning, purpose, and how he was afraid of what he would be like without it. He mentions many times how much he didn't really like Tal Vashoth's. Not only that, it's also most likely that he had many people he cared for back in the Qun, whom if he became Tal Vashoth he would never see again, or if he did it would be in the context of them trying to kill Iron Bull. So the decision was ultimately made because of all of that, not to send the message that friends don't matter, or that the Qun trumps everything. It's because my character truly thought that is what he would be happier with.

 

 

I guess this goes to show how differently people view things, really. My Inquisitor who romanced Bull decided to not sacrifice the Chargers for exactly the same reasons as yours - she cared for and had feelings for Bull. 

 

Yes, he did talk about the Qun, spoke of how he viewed the Tal Vashoth and the like. But...what did he do with the Inquisitor first chance he had? Did he spend time pontificating on the Qun? Listing all of the things about the Qun that meant the most to him, enriched his life? No; he took him/her to meet and get to know the Chargers. The Inquisitor got to meet each one, learned about them, drank with them. Watched as Bull laughed and recounted stories with them. The bond there was obvious. That whole scene was set up to illustrate exactly how much the Chargers meant to Bull. 

 

It was that meeting that flashed through my Inquisitor's mind that day on the Storm Coast when the decision had to be made. And to me, the choice seemed obvious.  Bull had shared what he loved most, and it wasn't the Qun.

[Heimdall]

What I find most revealing is that most people are completely blind to how similar to Western Society the Qun is. As I said elsewhere, the Qunari are:
 
[LIST][*]A technologically advanced society (check)[/*]
[*]Ruled by professors who fancy themselves peerless philosophers (recheck)[/*]

...Last I checked, most western societies are run by democracies of some form, and they don't tend to elect philosophers.

[*]Practicing an institutionalized form of Bourdieusian socio-cultural reproduction. (mostly check: social reproduction is mostly done informally in the Western World)[/*]

If google is accurate, Bourdieu's theory of socio-cultural reproduction concerns the idea of education being used to reproduce culture in future generations. This is hardly unique to the western world.

[*]Viewing the neighboring Nations as backward tribes enthralled by superstitions and corrupt, parasitic feudal lords (Spreading democracy at gunpoint was a rather popular opinion not so long ago)[/*]

Again, not a viewpoint in any way peculiar to western society.

[*]Harshly enforcing conformism on their own society, because their ruling class believe that such compulsory cohesion is indispensable less their own people revert to barbarity. (The dirty not-so-secret worldview of too many members of the Western Elites).[/*]

There is not a single society that doesn't enforce conformity to some degree.

Most of these points of comparison are too vague to be very meaningful. And the most important distinction between them is the entire thrust of their societies. The Qun is a collectivist society that emphasizes the good of the collective before individuality. Western culture has, for the past few centuries, been peculiar in all world history for its radically individualistic character.

[TheBlackAdder13]

...Last I checked, most western societies are run by democracies of some form, and they don't tend to elect philosophers.
If google is accurate, Bourdieu's theory of socio-cultural reproduction concerns the idea of education being used to reproduce culture in future generations. This is hardly unique to the western world.
Again, not a viewpoint in any way peculiar to western society.
There is not a single society that doesn't enforce conformity to some degree.

Most of these points of comparison are too vague to be very meaningful. And the most important distinction between them is the entire thrust of their societies. The Qun is a collectivist society that emphasizes the good of the collective before individuality. Western culture has, for the past few centuries, been peculiar in all world history for its radically individualistic character.

 

And top of all this, it's pretty blatant that the Qunari are modeled off the Ottoman Turks fused with 20th century communist regimes (perpetually at war with the Byzantines/Tevinter, only society in the area to have canons, etc fused with state-enforced atheism and public work assignments for the greater good of society).

 

ETA: Oh, and a lot of the Qunari language, grammar system, and structure sounds suspiciously Turkic just as the Tevinter language sounds suspiciously Latin.

[Nixou]

...Last I checked, most western societies are run by democracies of some form, and they don't tend to elect philosophers.

 

 

The Qunari view themselves as more democratic than Southern feudal regimes (and they're probably right about that)

And you can bet an eye and a kidney that Western leaders view themselves as peerless philosophers, regardless of their actual talent when it comes to philosophy.

 

If google is accurate, Bourdieu's theory of socio-cultural reproduction concerns the idea of education being used to reproduce culture in future generations.

 

 

Bourdieu went much farther than that: he noted that children from upper-class families where overrepresented in higher education institutions, and more importantly, that students who had mastered the elites lingo and used idioms specific to the upper-class in their writings (most often because they were themselves children of the upper-class and had learned it had home) tended to have better grades than equally good or better students who hadn't mastered the lingo.

 

This type of informal selection allowed two things:

1. It rigged competition to allow children of the upper-class to remain on top of the totem pole: it wasn't absolute: exceptionally gifted plebeian children would still beat privileged kids and the most stupid heirs would get weeded out (although... the fact that an incompetent doofus like Serge Dassault managed to enter Polytechnique shows that the bar was rather low for rich heirs)
2. It limited internal dissent within the upper-class: if the next generation of rulers is groomed to speak, behave and think exactly like the previous one, if most atypical thinkers are weeded out during college exams, then the young intellectual elites wont rock the boat too much.

 

Note that Bourdieu saw this selection process as mostly involuntary: unlike pre-industrial societies were nepotistic selection was done on purpose, here it was mostly due to teachers first, then employers being unconsciously more comfortable with people who displayed the same cultural markers as themselves.

 

The difference when it comes the Qunari society is that this type of selection (select and train as leaders the people who repeat the current elites' shibboleths the most faithfully, select and train as warriors the people whose behavior mirrors the current soldiers the most, etc...) is a formal policy mixed with eugenics for extra creepiness.

[Madmoe77]

'Hissrad' says it all. At the point where we defend him in that scene we are only trying to give Dobbie a sock. That sock is in the form of the Chargers. Rectum expectum if you don't.  

[Dai Grepher]

Here is my take on the situation.

 

BioWare wrote a bad DLC. The storyline was bad. It did not make sense. It was illogical. It was forced. It was not well thought out.

 

Next. In the game, Hissrad did not side with the Qun. He sided with a woman who was acting outside the Qun. This lessens Hissrad's character.

 

Now, if he had sided with the Qun, or at least what he thought was the Qun, then I would love this. I would consider it as a case of him staying loyal to his one and only oath, which was to the Qun. I would not see it as a betrayal.

 

That said, I did not see his action in Trespasser as a betrayal. I saw it as foolish. Again, because he should have seen that Vidasala was acting outside the Qun, and any orders she gave should be defied. So maybe he though that Vidasala was acting under official orders, and thus her orders were lawful. In that case, fine. He thought he was following the Qun. Fine.

 

Again, my problem is that he didn't see that Vidasala was basically Tal-Vashoth. It makes him look stupid. And Bull was never supposed to be so blind or foolish.

[Hiemoth]

Here is my take on the situation.

 

BioWare wrote a bad DLC. The storyline was bad. It did not make sense. It was illogical. It was forced. It was not well thought out.

 

Next. In the game, Hissrad did not side with the Qun. He sided with a woman who was acting outside the Qun. This lessens Hissrad's character.

 

Now, if he had sided with the Qun, or at least what he thought was the Qun, then I would love this. I would consider it as a case of him staying loyal to his one and only oath, which was to the Qun. I would not see it as a betrayal.

 

That said, I did not see his action in Trespasser as a betrayal. I saw it as foolish. Again, because he should have seen that Vidasala was acting outside the Qun, and any orders she gave should be defied. So maybe he though that Vidasala was acting under official orders, and thus her orders were lawful. In that case, fine. He thought he was following the Qun. Fine.

 

Again, my problem is that he didn't see that Vidasala was basically Tal-Vashoth. It makes him look stupid. And Bull was never supposed to be so blind or foolish.

 

Out of curiosity, why do you think Vidasala was acting outisde of the Qun?

[TheBlackAdder13]

Here is my take on the situation.

 

BioWare wrote a bad DLC. The storyline was bad. It did not make sense. It was illogical. It was forced. It was not well thought out.

 

Next. In the game, Hissrad did not side with the Qun. He sided with a woman who was acting outside the Qun. This lessens Hissrad's character.

 

Now, if he had sided with the Qun, or at least what he thought was the Qun, then I would love this. I would consider it as a case of him staying loyal to his one and only oath, which was to the Qun. I would not see it as a betrayal.

 

That said, I did not see his action in Trespasser as a betrayal. I saw it as foolish. Again, because he should have seen that Vidasala was acting outside the Qun, and any orders she gave should be defied. So maybe he though that Vidasala was acting under official orders, and thus her orders were lawful. In that case, fine. He thought he was following the Qun. Fine.

 

Again, my problem is that he didn't see that Vidasala was basically Tal-Vashoth. It makes him look stupid. And Bull was never supposed to be so blind or foolish.

 

I think the fact that Bull follows her orders in the first place indicates that he DOES NOT consider her Tal Vashoth and it would be too simplistic to write her off as Tal Vashoth. He outright says they think they're acting according to the Qun. Sure, the Vidasla is acting with the go ahead from the Arigena and actively concealing her actions from her, which I'm sure many Qunari would argue violates a demand of the Qun -- but I think it's far too simplistic to assume that violating a demand of the Qun (which is open to subjective debate like any philosophy anyway) automatically makes you Tal Vashoth. Tallis did this several times and while the Qunari have reprimanded her, they did not say this makes her Tal Vashoth. Sten slaughtering the innocent family goes against the Qun, but it did not make him Tal Vashoth either. Plus the vidasala was pretty confident that after her dragons breath plot succeeded, the rest of the Qun would follow and finally pacify southern Thedas. So technically she's still acting within the Qun, just outside the proper chain of command (which Tallis also does on a much lesser scale but does not get kicked out and written off as Tal Vashoth).

 

So while Iron Bull's aware that what she's doing isn't kosher with the Argiena, she's still his superior up the chain of command so he probably interprets the Qun as necessitating that he at least follow her orders and leave it to the higher-ups to determine how badly the Vidasala did or didn't **** up. Basically I think it comes down to shades of gray within the Qun itself.