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[Heimdall]

The Qunari view themselves as more democratic than Southern feudal regimes (and they're probably right about that)
And you can bet an eye and a kidney that Western leaders view themselves as peerless philosophers, regardless of their actual talent when it comes to philosophy.

It seems Qunari are chosen for their positions according to some Tamassran internal ranking system of particular attributes. That's how they always have a successor ready in the wings when one of the Triumvirate dies, they already have the next best picked out. I don't know how exactly the priesthood makes the determination, or whose decision it is, but I think it's a stretch to call it in any way democratic. The power to appoint leaders resides in a small number of priests. If that's a democracy, then one might argue that Tevinter could make the same claim, as the Magisterium has the power to elect an Archon. I'm just about certain that the Qun doesn't see itself as democratic, considering how focused their culture is on deference to authority and submission of personal will to creeds and power structures. If anything the Qun selection process reminds me more of the examination system ancient China used to staff its bureaucracy, except the tests are ongoing throughout their childhoods.

As to western leaders, I'd say egotism is a trait most leaders tend to share regardless of society.

Bourdieu went much farther than that: he noted that children from upper-class families where overrepresented in higher education institutions, and more importantly, that students who had mastered the elites lingo and used idioms specific to the upper-class in their writings (most often because they were themselves children of the upper-class and had learned it had home) tended to have better grades than equally good or better students who hadn't mastered the lingo.

This type of informal selection allowed two things:

• It rigged competition to allow children of the upper-class to remain on top of the totem pole: it wasn't absolute: exceptionally gifted plebeian children would still beat privileged kids and the most stupid heirs would get weeded out (although... the fact that an incompetent doofus like Serge Dassault managed to enter Polytechnique shows that the bar was rather low for rich heirs)
• It limited internal dissent within the upper-class: if the next generation of rulers is groomed to speak, behave and think exactly like the previous one, if most atypical thinkers are weeded out during college exams, then the young intellectual elites wont rock the boat too much.

Note that Bourdieu saw this selection process as mostly involuntary: unlike pre-industrial societies were nepotistic selection was done on purpose, here it was mostly due to teachers first, then employers being unconsciously more comfortable with people who displayed the same cultural markers as themselves.

The difference when it comes the Qunari society is that this type of selection (select and train as leaders the people who repeat the current elites' shibboleths the most faithfully, select and train as warriors the people whose behavior mirrors the current soldiers the most, etc...) is a formal policy mixed with eugenics for extra creepiness.

Okay, that's very interesting so thank you for explaining. I'm not sure the comparison still works though seeing how much more extreme and institutionalize the Qun takes the idea. Plus there's the issue of the Qun raising all children in precisely the same environment. The similarity is really vague, is all I'm saying.

[HopeVessel]

Yes, it is. You know for a fact he's from a culture where the ideal is the people are sacrificed for the greater good. Even their friends and lovers. What do you expect to happen if you strengthen that foundation? You nothing to change his belief in the qun. Nothing to show he can live as a normal person out side of it, which is his issue with it being he believe he can't do so with out it. He even goes on and tell you he knows that if he keeps fallowing the qun he has to sacrifice his friend s one day..... What do you expect to happen if you don't change his belief?

 

Two things, first is that there is a difference between what the player will expect given what they know, and what the in-game character will expect given what they know. The in-game character would most likely have less experience with the Qunari than the player, making it so they wouldn't actually know or understand the full extent of what the Qunari are like. Frankly, yes I as a player didn't expect Bull to turn against the inquisitor, specifically if romanced with high approval, as I didn't think that such a belief would trump even love, though yes seeing what I have now seen, it's obvious that the Qun has a scary amount of control over people's will. So I think that plays a role in placing "blame." Blame usually involves among other things, examining the intent/knowledge of whomever you are determining whether to place blame on.

 

Second is that there would be other opportunities to change his beliefs, besides that one situation, for instance a good time to challenge his beliefs would be when the full brunt of the Qun hits the inquisitor in the face, meaning when it becomes blatantly obvious that the Qun isn't actually best for Bull, that it is making him do something that is wrong. A prime example would be trying to blow up major places in Thedas, though it seems it was too late then. I do want to note though, that I think there is a difference between "sacrificing" your friends in a battle during a time of war, and actively trying to kill them. And sure, the inquisitor in game doesn't do anything to show he can live outside the Qun, but given the opportunity my character most certainly would have if it was for the best, and most importantly if Bull wanted to. Because I'm sorry but forcing someone, i.e. choosing for them, to leave their culture, their home, essentially their whole life behind, I don't think is right (at least not in the manner as was shown in game). That is a decision for them to make, and my character would have loved for her and Bull to live happily ever after, but it seems for whatever reason such a discussion never came up. As I said, I think that scene with the chargers could have been designed better, there is just something that doesn't seem right with, as I mentioned, choosing for someone else to throw away their entire culture in one instant, without any real discussion. Which is why my character didn't do that to Bull.

 

 

I guess this goes to show how differently people view things, really. My Inquisitor who romanced Bull decided to not sacrifice the Chargers for exactly the same reasons as yours - she cared for and had feelings for Bull. 

 

Yes, he did talk about the Qun, spoke of how he viewed the Tal Vashoth and the like. But...what did he do with the Inquisitor first chance he had? Did he spend time pontificating on the Qun? Listing all of the things about the Qun that meant the most to him, enriched his life? No; he took him/her to meet and get to know the Chargers. The Inquisitor got to meet each one, learned about them, drank with them. Watched as Bull laughed and recounted stories with them. The bond there was obvious. That whole scene was set up to illustrate exactly how much the Chargers meant to Bull. 

 

It was that meeting that flashed through my Inquisitor's mind that day on the Storm Coast when the decision had to be made. And to me, the choice seemed obvious.  Bull had shared what he loved most, and it wasn't the Qun.

 

Yes, that is true, but the conclusion we can gleam from this fact is not entirely clear cut. Seeing as how talking about the Qun, or trying to socialize with someone by telling them that you should believe what they believe or they ought to die, usually isn't the best way to build a relationship. So I don't know how much we can use this fact to determine or quantify his love with the chargers vs his love of the Qun. As I think even in real life we sometimes don't talk about certain things with some people, not because we don't love whatever it is we aren't talking about, but because it will create tension/conflict for which we don't want.

[xFarSide]

2. Now what does Bull's betrayal say about Bull himself? 

 

Who does Bull betray? He was loyal to the Qun, followed orders to get close to the Inquisitor and the Inquisition. The Inquisitor made sure Bull's crew, the only thing that he might possibly betray the Qun for, died. He was never loyal to the Inquisitor, the Inquisitor was just dumb enough to think Bull was.

 

Good job breaking it Hero.

[leaguer of one]

Two things, first is that there is a difference between what the player will expect given what they know, and what the in-game character will expect given what they know. The in-game character would most likely have less experience with the Qunari than the player, making it so they wouldn't actually know or understand the full extent of what the Qunari are like. Frankly, yes I as a player didn't expect Bull to turn against the inquisitor, specifically if romanced with high approval, as I didn't think that such a belief would trump even love, though yes seeing what I have now seen, it's obvious that the Qun has a scary amount of control over people's will. So I think that plays a role in placing "blame." Blame usually involves among other things, examining the intent/knowledge of whomever you are determining whether to place blame on.

 

Second is that there would be other opportunities to change his beliefs, besides that one situation, for instance a good time to challenge his beliefs would be when the full brunt of the Qun hits the inquisitor in the face, meaning when it becomes blatantly obvious that the Qun isn't actually best for Bull, that it is making him do something that is wrong. A prime example would be trying to blow up major places in Thedas, though it seems it was too late then. I do want to note though, that I think there is a difference between "sacrificing" your friends in a battle during a time of war, and actively trying to kill them. And sure, the inquisitor in game doesn't do anything to show he can live outside the Qun, but given the opportunity my character most certainly would have if it was for the best, and most importantly if Bull wanted to. Because I'm sorry but forcing someone, i.e. choosing for them, to leave their culture, their home, essentially their whole life behind, I don't think is right (at least not in the manner as was shown in game). That is a decision for them to make, and my character would have loved for her and Bull to live happily ever after, but it seems for whatever reason such a discussion never came up. As I said, I think that scene with the chargers could have been designed better, there is just something that doesn't seem right with, as I mentioned, choosing for someone else to throw away their entire culture in one instant, without any real discussion. Which is why my character didn't do that to Bull.

 

 

 

 

1. Except even the pc know what to expect with the qun. You goes on about how great the qun is but latter tells you how you, your friend and allies will not fit  in the qun. Then he goes on about how much he sacrificed everything, including his friend, for the qun and how it nearly drove him mad to the point of suicide. Yet, you though "Hey let do everything the drove him crazy in the qun and let his friend die". Then yo next take account of how long an alliance with the qun will last after her tells you how the qun with turn you mind into mush, and take out all your friend and family when they invade.

 

Sorry, I have to ask...were you listening to Bull at all. you can't hind behind pc knowledge because what the pc know in dai alone would make it a point of the issue with allying with the qun and what would happen to bull if you let his friends die.

 

2.no their would not be. The entire point what show Bull he can be a normal person with out the qun and not turn into a rampaging monster. Nothing else in the story prompt up to show that. even more so with the fact you already did his main mission .

 

 

Sorry but you made your bed and you were told and warned about it before.

[Samahl na Revas]

The Qun is the light.

 

There is honor in being true to yourself. Hissrad upholds his honor and dies as a Qunari.

 

"The" Iron Bull, whatever that was is a lie, which he revealed to the inquisitor at the onset of negotiations, though the certainty of that lie is unknown. His disgust for the Freeman of the Dales could be real or it could even be a lie. What is a lie? What you feel about Hissrad or The Iron Bull is really up to you. I'm sure if Hissrad was real, he would be entrapped by the decision to live under the Qun or be a Tal-Vashoth given the history he chooses to divulge. The choice may feel wrong all around, but there are consequences to the alternative as well. We can not pick and choose the consequences (Solas  ).

 

As for being a Tal-Vashoth for saving The Chargers, that decision was made by his superiors. Furthermore, Hissrad had two years to contemplate the consequences of that decision. Two years is a long time, and maybe enough time to be The Iron Bull.

 

Lastly, the Qun is the light. I'm obviously joking about the Qun is the light, maybe. It was sort of a theme on BSN after Dragon Age: Origins for fans of Sten etc. Anyway, the Qun serves the same purpose any form of governing or spiritual body forms: it simplifies ideas and allows life to be simple and comforting. As for the plan to burn the cities of Theadas, I think it is mentioned somewhere that this was a rogue faction not sanctioned by the superiors. I won't debate. 

 

It all comes back full circle. We know that we only meet a part of the Qunari, their military etc. I wouldn't be so quick to judge them as a whole. Didn't the Stone have mindless miners, the Old Elves: slaves, Not so distant Past: Elven slavery and then alienages. Oh, and mages going Kaboom everywhere to everything. The necessity of preventing such things from repeating couldn't ever be greater in Theadas. (unless it could)

 

The Qun is the light.

 

 

[Dai Grepher]

Out of curiosity, why do you think Vidasala was acting outisde of the Qun?

 

She gave serebaas lyrium. She used elven magic. She acted on incomplete information instead of report to her superiors and await instruction. She sent Qunari to kill a proven Qunari ally as well as Hissrad who was a loyal Qunari agent. She also intercepted Josephine's letter to Par Vollen and was going to impersonate them before she finally had the response letter discarded. Her plan also made no sense. She claimed the Qunari were displeased with the southern leaders for not curbing the Inquisitor's magic, yet plotted to blow up the Council which was trying to curb the Inquisitor's magic.

 

Everything she did seemed like the misguided actions of a rogue agent who took her role to an illogical extreme.
 

[Dai Grepher]

I think the fact that Bull follows her orders in the first place indicates that he DOES NOT consider her Tal Vashoth and it would be too simplistic to write her off as Tal Vashoth. He outright says they think they're acting according to the Qun. Sure, the Vidasla is acting with the go ahead from the Arigena and actively concealing her actions from her, which I'm sure many Qunari would argue violates a demand of the Qun -- but I think it's far too simplistic to assume that violating a demand of the Qun (which is open to subjective debate like any philosophy anyway) automatically makes you Tal Vashoth. Tallis did this several times and while the Qunari have reprimanded her, they did not say this makes her Tal Vashoth. Sten slaughtering the innocent family goes against the Qun, but it did not make him Tal Vashoth either. Plus the vidasala was pretty confident that after her dragons breath plot succeeded, the rest of the Qun would follow and finally pacify southern Thedas. So technically she's still acting within the Qun, just outside the proper chain of command (which Tallis also does on a much lesser scale but does not get kicked out and written off as Tal Vashoth).

 

So while Iron Bull's aware that what she's doing isn't kosher with the Argiena, she's still his superior up the chain of command so he probably interprets the Qun as necessitating that he at least follow her orders and leave it to the higher-ups to determine how badly the Vidasala did or didn't **** up. Basically I think it comes down to shades of gray within the Qun itself. 

 

Obviously. My complaint is that he actually though she was legit.

 

Sure he says they think they are legit, but he also says he thinks Par Vollen would not authorize their actions.

 

Vidasala's overconfidence does not in any way indicate that she acted with sanction.

 

If it's about shades of grey, then Hissrad should have continued to walk his own fine line and simply ignored her order, instead remaining true to his known purpose of being a spy, not an enemy.

 

Again, for the record, I wanted Hissrad to side with the Qun against the Inquisitor. But that isn't what happened here, to the best of my knowledge.

[TheBlackAdder13]

Obviously. My complaint is that he actually though she was legit.

 

Sure he says they think they are legit, but he also says he thinks Par Vollen would not authorize their actions.

 

Vidasala's overconfidence does not in any way indicate that she acted with sanction.

 

If it's about shades of grey, then Hissrad should have continued to walk his own fine line and simply ignored her order, instead remaining true to his known purpose of being a spy, not an enemy.

 

Again, for the record, I wanted Hissrad to side with the Qun against the Inquisitor. But that isn't what happened here, to the best of my knowledge.

 

Yes, and Iron Bull is aware she's acting without sanction. Tallis did the same at least twice and she's not automatically Tal Vashoth. Just because she's acting without sanction doesn't mean she's not his superior. The Qun demands that he obey her regardless of the questionablity of her actions. I'm sure most of the Qunari who went rampaging throughout Kirkwall to find the tome of Koslun realized it wasn't exactly kosher under the Qun either but they did it anyway because their superior (the Arishok) told them to -- even though he clearly didn't have the go-ahead from the Ariqun and Arigena. 

[sandalisthemaker]

I hate the Qun too, OP.

 

That's why I am delighted that: 

 

screwing the Qunari = Saving the Chargers.

 

screwing the Qunari = Bull is now free

 

screwing the Qunari = Bull giving Viddasala the finger and proceeding to help me mow down her forces. 

 

I never have to even worry about what Bull might do in other people's games, but I fully understand why he does betray the Inquisitor.

 

Actually QunBull isn't betraying the Inquisitor.  QunBull was never loyal to the Inquisitor in the first place.  That loyalty is only allowed to develop and grow if the Inquisitor shows him that it is okay to place love and loyalty of family and friends above the Qun. 

[Dabrikishaw]

I don't see how Iron Bull siding with the Qun doesn't make sense when he never left it if you choose the Dreadnought.

[milkeye]

 

 

Yes, that is true, but the conclusion we can gleam from this fact is not entirely clear cut. Seeing as how talking about the Qun, or trying to socialize with someone by telling them that you should believe what they believe or they ought to die, usually isn't the best way to build a relationship. So I don't know how much we can use this fact to determine or quantify his love with the chargers vs his love of the Qun. As I think even in real life we sometimes don't talk about certain things with some people, not because we don't love whatever it is we aren't talking about, but because it will create tension/conflict for which we don't want.

 

I can tell from reading your posts that this is something that you feel deeply about, something to which you've given a lot of contemplation, and no doubt you (if you're like me) had spent a lot of in-game time cultivating said relationship to the best of your ability. It sounds like you were honestly thrown for a loop when Bull flipped and I can completely empathize with those feelings and I'm not ashamed to say I would have been gutted to the absolute core had I experienced it, too. 

 

Of course Bull's arc is over-simplistic; realistically there is only so much that can be included in a game - real-life nuances and various possibilities are sacrificed for budget and time constraints, and I agree that his story suffers from their lack. All of the equations get boiled down to their basest elements, and as a player we have to then work with the equations we are given.

 

Keeping that in mind, and from a strictly story-telling point of view, I think that we were given enough information to make an informed decision, if we took it at face value. Refer back to that bit I mentioned before, the cutscene with Bull introducing the Chargers. The writers knew that we the players would be making a choice during his personal quest that would impact things, including Bull himself. So before that choice is made, they give us information to help us make that decision, no matter which way we chose to go. We get two cutscenes with Bull: in the first, we go with him to talk with some Inquisition soldiers and in the second we meet the Chargers. To me, both scenes (and they were deemed important enough to turn into cutscenes) to varying degrees illustrate the idea of the importance of knowing those one leads, and of feeling a connection to them no matter how small. With the Chargers scene this is taken to a more complex level, and we see really how much Bull cares about them. 

 

So as a player I think "Why was it important to show me these things?" And further to that, why weren't we shown cutscenes showing Bull's relation to other factors such as the Qun or his fellow Qunari? And it's because, like the personal quests of your other companions, it's to do with them as individuals, and not as something to do with the Inquisition as a whole.

 

And so we find ourselves on the Storm Coast having to make a grave decision, and of course I ran through all the possibilities in my mind regarding what would benefit me or the Inquisition... but I also knew that I had been given specific information about Bull prior to this decision with the knowledge that such a choice had to be made. Given that, it wasn't difficult for me to choose; we couldn't know in what way the decision would manifest later in game, nor were we able to utilize the nuances of a real-life situation, so really we had to break it down to its basest elements as a game player because that's all we had. It would have been very easy to overthink it all.

 

Anyhow, that's my take on it. I do understand where you're coming from, though; your choice at the time wasn't made for selfish or malicious reasons, and so the resulting twist of the knife was no doubt hurtful to you. I do believe that we had been given fairly straightforward information that should have been considered at the time we had to make the choice, though. I don't think that the writers failed us at all in that respect.

[Ryzaki]

I hate the Qun too, OP.

 

That's why I am delighted that: 

 

screwing the Qunari = Saving the Chargers.

 

screwing the Qunari = Bull is now free

 

screwing the Qunari = Bull giving Viddasala the finger and proceeding to help me mow down her forces. 

 

I never have to even worry about what Bull might do in other people's games, but I fully understand why he does betray the Inquisitor.

 

Actually QunBull isn't betraying the Inquisitor.  QunBull was never loyal to the Inquisitor in the first place.  That loyalty is only allowed to develop and grow if the Inquisitor shows him that it is okay to place love and loyalty of family and friends above the Qun. 

 

This is why this whole he betrayed me blows my mind. He told you who his master was when he first met you. I just don't understand. This isn't something uncommon to BW games either. Plenty of people will stab you in the back if you don't earn their loyalty. So wtf.

[HopeVessel]

1. Except even the pc know what to expect with the qun. You goes on about how great the qun is but latter tells you how you, your friend and allies will not fit  in the qun. Then he goes on about how much he sacrificed everything, including his friend, for the qun and how it nearly drove him mad to the point of suicide. Yet, you though "Hey let do everything the drove him crazy in the qun and let his friend die". Then yo next take account of how long an alliance with the qun will last after her tells you how the qun with turn you mind into mush, and take out all your friend and family when they invade.

 

Sorry, I have to ask...were you listening to Bull at all. you can't hind behind pc knowledge because what the pc know in dai alone would make it a point of the issue with allying with the qun and what would happen to bull if you let his friends die.

 

2.no their would not be. The entire point what show Bull he can be a normal person with out the qun and not turn into a rampaging monster. Nothing else in the story prompt up to show that. even more so with the fact you already did his main mission .

 

 

Sorry but you made your bed and you were told and warned about it before.

 

1. You know what they say, seeing is believing. Grasping another culture and way of life isn't an easy thing to do, even when people talk about it. Words usually never do it justice. Perhaps the reason all the times that Bull mentions stuff about the Qun doesn't fully sink in, is because there isn't much opportunity to "debate" with Bull, either it's just a passing comment or from what I can remember sometimes ends with Bull saying something like "I don't want to talk about it boss." Which then the inquisitor just leaves it at that, which when it comes to placing blame, is it the player's fault or the designer that didn't allow the player to push Bull on the subject? So yes, I'm sorry but I would have to disagree that interacting with one person from another culture for a fairly limited amount of time would make own an expert in knowing how everyone from that culture would act and behave in every situation. Which I'm assuming is the reason why you place blame on the Inquisitor, you think they should have known how Bull would act and behave in every situation? That if the chargers died in that situation, the inquisitor should have known Bull will lose all emotions and try to not only kill the inquisitor but go along with a plan to kill thousands of other?

 

2. I don't know if any of us could know what situations would arise in life that would lead to people changing their beliefs, sure in the game they made only one such opportunity arise, but that most certainly didn't have to be the case, nor would any one in the game world know that would be the case.

 

I think my Inquisitor can deal with what happened, the only problem she would have is if people think she is somehow responsible for the bad decisions of others, specifically Iron Bull's. Because that is what this is all about, to what extent are people responsible for the choices others make, this of course will vary depending on the context. In most cases I find the choices usually lie with the individual making the choice itself, in Bull's case I see no one responsible but himself in making the choice to try and kill the Inquisitor as well as thousands of others. It may also be the responsibility of other people in the Qun who brainwashed him, assuming that's what happened.

[leaguer of one]

1. You know what they say, seeing is believing. Grasping another culture and way of life isn't an easy thing to do, even when people talk about it. Words usually never do it justice. Perhaps the reason all the times that Bull mentions stuff about the Qun doesn't fully sink in, is because there isn't much opportunity to "debate" with Bull, either it's just a passing comment or from what I can remember sometimes ends with Bull saying something like "I don't want to talk about it boss." Which then the inquisitor just leaves it at that, which when it comes to placing blame, is it the player's fault or the designer that didn't allow the player to push Bull on the subject? So yes, I'm sorry but I would have to disagree that interacting with one person from another culture for a fairly limited amount of time would make own an expert in knowing how everyone from that culture would act and behave in every situation. Which I'm assuming is the reason why you place blame on the Inquisitor, you think they should have known how Bull would act and behave in every situation? That if the chargers died in that situation, the inquisitor should have known Bull will lose all emotions and try to not only kill the inquisitor but go along with a plan to kill thousands of other?

 

2. I don't know if any of us could know what situations would arise in life that would lead to people changing their beliefs, sure in the game they made only one such opportunity arise, but that most certainly didn't have to be the case, nor would any one in the game world know that would be the case.

 

I think my Inquisitor can deal with what happened, the only problem she would have is if people think she is somehow responsible for the bad decisions of others, specifically Iron Bull's. Because that is what this is all about, to what extent are people responsible for the choices others make, this of course will vary depending on the context. In most cases I find the choices usually lie with the individual making the choice itself, in Bull's case I see no one responsible but himself in making the choice to try and kill the Inquisitor as well as thousands of others. It may also be the responsibility of other people in the Qun who brainwashed him, assuming that's what happened.

1. *Face palm

 

You do know that my entire post is about what bull says. My pc choice and opinion is not influenced by past evens or other pc view.  Her feeling on the qun from the start was neutral. Even more ironically my Mage Hawke has an even better opinion on the qun then my Quis. Any influance of the choice I made with the chargers were as  fellow Qunari merc and from what Bull says about his past and the qun. To her the qun , based on what Bull says which I can post video of, a group that would melt her mind for being too strong willed(and he literally said that word for word to her.) Kill or imprison every mage in the inquisition and her Kith, Turn Sara and Varric into mindless slave for mouthing off, and Cassandra and Cullen into soldiers if they service the invasion..... Then he goes on and tells me how people of the qun are just like everyone else except the fact he lost everyone he lost fallowing the qun and went crazy to the point of wanting to commit suicide.

 

And this is the no romanced details of his story line.(She did romance him.) 

And all that detail to my pc painted a picture of a wounded man who lost too much and cared too much fallowing the culture he was born into that gave him nothing back, 100% total form his own lines.  And yet some how you think letting go back to the qun is what he wants? And then you're surprise he betrays you and fallows the qun?

 

2.Well, the game has this formula that illustrates when it is fro playable characters. it's been like this form dao. Added,if you know his history you should know you pushing him over the edge again. that not going to have him have any better out look.

 

And you Inquisitor is responsible. You let the guy in know who he is, and you did not convert him to you side or have any check for him. You know he will do any thing the qun will tell him and you have no idea how ling the qun will keep the alliance.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, and Iron Bull is aware she's acting without sanction. Tallis did the same at least twice and she's not automatically Tal Vashoth. Just because she's acting without sanction doesn't mean she's not his superior. The Qun demands that he obey her regardless of the questionablity of her actions. I'm sure most of the Qunari who went rampaging throughout Kirkwall to find the tome of Koslun realized it wasn't exactly kosher under the Qun either but they did it anyway because their superior (the Arishok) told them to -- even though he clearly didn't have the go-ahead from the Ariqun and Arigena. 

 

Okay, and if Hissrad was aware that she was acting without sanction, then he should know that as soon as Par Vollen gets wind of it they will wash their hands of her. In which case he can safely discard her unofficial orders and go on living so they can slay another dragon and he can keep being a trusted spy within the Inquisition.

 

The Qunari in DA2 are a different case. Their role was to follow the military orders of the Arishok. Hissrad's last official order was to be a spy within the Inquisition. Vidasala, who was acting outside the Qun, had no authority to change Hissrad's role to be that of a combatant against the Inquisition. It would be like the Arishok commanding one of his soldiers to breed with an elf. Not only would the Arishok have no authority to give such an order, but it would violate the Qun in multiple ways as well.

[leaguer of one]

Okay, and if Hissrad was aware that she was acting without sanction, then he should know that as soon as Par Vollen gets wind of it they will wash their hands of her. In which case he can safely discard her unofficial orders and go on living so they can slay another dragon and he can keep being a trusted spy within the Inquisition.

 

The Qunari in DA2 are a different case. Their role was to follow the military orders of the Arishok. Hissrad's last official order was to be a spy within the Inquisition. Vidasala, who was acting outside the Qun, had no authority to change Hissrad's role to be that of a combatant against the Inquisition. It would be like the Arishok commanding one of his soldiers to breed with an elf. Not only would the Arishok have no authority to give such an order, but it would violate the Qun in multiple ways as well.

She's the highest ranking officer in the area. he has to fallow her orders.

[HopeVessel]

1. *Face palm

 

You do know that my entire post is about what bull says. My pc choice and opinion is not influenced by past evens or other pc view.  Her feeling on the qun from the start was neutral. Even more ironically my Mage Hawke has an even better opinion on the qun then my Quis. Any influance of the choice I made with the chargers were as  fellow Qunari merc and from what Bull says about his past and the qun. To her the qun , based on what Bull says which I can post video of, a group that would melt her mind for being too strong willed(and he literally said that word for word to her.) Kill or imprison every mage in the inquisition and her Kith, Turn Sara and Varric into mindless slave for mouthing off, and Cassandra and Cullen into soldiers if they service the invasion..... Then he goes on and tells me how people of the qun are just like everyone else except the fact he lost everyone he lost fallowing the qun and went crazy to the point of wanting to commit suicide.

 

And this is the no romanced details of his story line.(She did romance him.) 

And all that detail to my pc painted a picture of a wounded man who lost too much and cared too much fallowing the culture he was born into that gave him nothing back, 100% total form his own lines.  And yet some how you think letting go back to the qun is what he wants? And then you're surprise he betrays you and fallows the qun?

 

2.Well, the game has this formula that illustrates when it is fro playable characters. it's been like this form dao. Added,if you know his history you should know you pushing him over the edge again. that not going to have him have any better out look.

 

And you Inquisitor is responsible. You let the guy in know who he is, and you did not convert him to you side or have any check for him. You know he will do any thing the qun will tell him and you have no idea how ling the qun will keep the alliance.

 

To clear some things up, the fact that a culture or nation does terrible things doesn't necessarily mean everyone who is a part of that nation/culture agrees with it, or would go along with it when push comes to shove, so no, I don't think it's a given that we know he will do anything the Qun says, no more than Cassandra or anyone else would do anything that the Chantry says. I must disagree with giving nothing back, it gave him identity and purpose, likewise I never said my inquisitor would have never wanted him to leave the Qun, just that the moment that was presented, as it was presented, wasn't the right time. As mentioned, ultimately he never makes a choice, a choice is forced upon him by the inquisitor. Which I don't think many people would appreciate another person making such a choice for them, i.e. abandoning their entire culture. Now should the Inquisitor think that Bull wants him/her to force him to be Tal Vashoth? I don't see anything that suggests that. And I don't know what he wants, how could anyone, most people, I would even say all people, don't even now what they themselves want let alone other people.

 

So it seems the issue is you think he wants to be Tal Vashoth, and that it is abundantly clear that he wants to, and therefore the right choice is to save the chargers. While I would have to say it just isn't very clear what he wants. I would say it isn't very clear to him either.

 

And yes the inquisitor is responsible for having him join the party, and to a degree should have been better at learning his "secrets", though I would actually put that responsibility more on Leliana, or the spy master, as that's kind of her job, making sure other people's spies aren't going to sabotage us. Even so, ultimately she won't be able to know and prevent every single bad thing.  I think we may also be misunderstanding each other when talking about responsibility, one way we can try to get a better understanding, is for you to answer two questions for me. Do you think the Inquisitor deserved to be betrayed? Do you think it was right for Bull to try and kill the Inquisitor? My answer to both of these is no, if that's yours too, then I don't think we really disagree as much as it seems.

 

For me, just because someone keeps their doors unlocked doesn't mean they deserve to be robbed. Or that the robber is some how free of responsibility. I think the Iron Bull situation is similar, in the sense that sure, the inquisitor may have done something (left door opened) that lead to Iron Bull doing what he did (as the robber wouldn't have robbed that person, presumably in this example, if the door wasn't unlocked), but ultimately who is responsible for that bad action? 

 

And if you disagree, and think that person deserved it, I don't think the conversation will really go much further, as our core values in regards to this would seem to be at odds, and I don't think we will convince each other to change something like that on these forums here.

 

Also for those who are discussing whether what Iron Bull did should be described as "betrayal," ultimately I would have to say yes, I think betrayal can still happen even if one party was always "faking it." Betrayal just means there is a real or presumed agreement between two parties which is then called off by one party, whether one party or both always planned to or not is irrelevant, all that's necessary is one party to believe that the other is serious. And I think it was presumed that the Qunari/Iron Bull wouldn't try and destroy the Inquisition, seeing as how they were in an "alliance."

[leaguer of one]

To clear some things up, the fact that a culture or nation does terrible things doesn't necessarily mean everyone who is a part of that nation/culture agrees with it, or would go along with it when push comes to shove, so no, I don't think it's a given that we know he will do anything the Qun says, no more than Cassandra or anyone else would do anything that the Chantry says. I must disagree with giving nothing back, it gave him identity and purpose, likewise I never said my inquisitor would have never wanted him to leave the Qun, just that the moment that was presented, as it was presented, wasn't the right time. As mentioned, ultimately he never makes a choice, a choice is forced upon him by the inquisitor. Which I don't think many people would appreciate another person making such a choice for them, i.e. abandoning their entire culture. Now should the Inquisitor think that Bull wants him/her to force him to be Tal Vashoth? I don't see anything that suggests that. And I don't know what he wants, how could anyone, most people, I would even say all people, don't even now what they themselves want let alone other people.

 

So it seems the issue is you think he wants to be Tal Vashoth, and that it is abundantly clear that he wants to, and therefore the right choice is to save the chargers. While I would have to say it just isn't very clear what he wants. I would say it isn't very clear to him either.

 

And yes the inquisitor is responsible for having him join the party, and to a degree should have been better at learning his "secrets", though I would actually put that responsibility more on Leliana, or the spy master, as that's kind of her job, making sure other people's spies aren't going to sabotage us. Even so, ultimately she won't be able to know and prevent every single bad thing.  I think we may also be misunderstanding each other when talking about responsibility, one way we can try to get a better understanding, is for you to answer two questions for me. Do you think the Inquisitor deserved to be betrayed? Do you think it was right for Bull to try and kill the Inquisitor? My answer to both of these is no, if that's yours too, then I don't think we really disagree as much as it seems.

 

For me, just because someone keeps their doors unlocked doesn't mean they deserve to be robbed. Or that the robber is some how free of responsibility. I think the Iron Bull situation is similar, in the sense that sure, the inquisitor may have done something (left door opened) that lead to Iron Bull doing what he did (as the robber wouldn't have robbed that person, presumably in this example, if the door wasn't unlocked), but ultimately who is responsible for that bad action? 

 

And if you disagree, and think that person deserved it, I don't think the conversation will really go much further, as our core values in regards to this would seem to be at odds, and I don't think we will convince each other to change something like that on these forums here.

 

Also for those who are discussing whether what Iron Bull did should be described as "betrayal," ultimately I would have to say yes, I think betrayal can still happen even if one party was always "faking it." Betrayal just means there is a real or presumed agreement between two parties which is then called off by one party, whether one party or both always planned to or not is irrelevant, all that's necessary is one party to believe that the other is serious. And I think it was presumed that the Qunari/Iron Bull wouldn't try and destroy the Inquisition, seeing as how they were in an "alliance."

My god...Are you not understanding me? I'm not taking about what other people think of the qun. I'm not talking about what the player is told by the qun by people who don't understand it. The fact you are bring that up is disturbing because we are talking about clearly different things.

 

I want to make this clear one more time.....I am talking How the Iron Bull feels about the qun and what his interaction with it was like. Iron Bull, who was raised by the qun. 

 

For My pc in DAI, everything thing she feels about the qun is based on the Iron bull's statement.

 

Please stop talking about issue of misunderstanding of the qun from character who don't understand it because it has nothing to do with this conversation.

 

And the qun did give him nothing back. His id was a title and being a cog in a machine. He, by his own words ,was raised for a job. He lost so much that he went mad, felt life was point less and wanted to die. Sorry but how can you say the gave him anything. They raised him only for him to be just fighting machine who had to give up everything. And I got that from his words. And the fact that he tell you how much loss fell to him make it clear what he wants.

 

His entire story line is about facing the truth about the qun, that he can have close friends and be a full person while fallowing the qun. He can only have one or the other.

 

It's obvious.

 

How much pain of loss does he have to tell you for you to get it?

 

And it's not the case you left the door unlock. It's the case you gave you're key to the house to a guy who has a history of thief you only befriended  a few weeks and he ends up stealing your stuff.

 

It plain and simple. You have the chance to convert him to you side, you did not, so now he is still on the side who can turn on you at any time. This guy tell you he is not loyal to you and with a group of people who he tells you himself one day they will invade your land and concur you. You should on know sooner or later he would turn on you.

 

Heck, dragon age even has a saying for this.

 

"Open you hands too wide, or close your eyes too tight....One's a fool."

-Flemeth

[QueenCrow]

HopeVessel,

 

I think your initial post is awesome!  You make a lot of good points and ask a lot of good questions and they are ones that I've been pondering myself.  So to read your thought process has been productive.

 

I only have a few thoughts to contribute at the moment:

 

First, perhaps due to the way I earn a living, I was emotionally influenced by imagery.  I saved the Chargers and faced weeks of this:

He looks miserable, as if my advice to him ruined his being, his purpose - blood on his hand, his eyes shut to the changed world, the severed heads and corpses of his people laying all around him.  How could I have done that, I wondered as I looked at the card?  It's true that I don't have an affinity for the Qun, but couldn't I have just remembered that the whole reason Bull was with me (my Inquisitor) was because the Qun sent him?  He was them and they were him and he looks so dejected, so lost, so defeated.

 

Then Trespasser churned the already bloody waters.  I haven't done the Trespasser playthrough on my Qun-loyal-Bull character and probably won't.  I may have the gist of the story.  The bait-and-switch imagery has me thinking too.  How did the Qunari intend to "save the South"? And does it make a difference when we find out from Fen'Harel, who has the Qunari all hot and bothered, that the world may be in need of some saving?

 

And since the Qunari, and Qun-loyal Bull seem in possession of some information before my Inquisitor, namely the Fen'Harel thing, what else do they know that I don't?

 

Thanks for the awesome OP.  And thanks for the Qun/Bull free thought platform!

[leaguer of one]

HopeVessel,

 

I think your initial post is awesome!  You make a lot of good points and ask a lot of good questions and they are ones that I've been pondering myself.  So to read your thought process has been productive.

 

I only have a few thoughts to contribute at the moment:

 

First, perhaps due to the way I earn a living, I was emotionally influenced by imagery.  I saved the Chargers and faced weeks of this:

He looks miserable, as if my advice to him ruined his being, his purpose - blood on his hand, his eyes shut to the changed world, the severed heads and corpses of his people laying all around him.  How could I have done that, I wondered as I looked at the card?  It's true that I don't have an affinity for the Qun, but couldn't I have just remembered that the whole reason Bull was with me (my Inquisitor) was because the Qun sent him?  He was them and they were him and he looks so dejected, so lost, so defeated.

 

Then Trespasser churned the already bloody waters.  I haven't done the Trespasser playthrough on my Qun-loyal-Bull character and probably won't.  I may have the gist of the story.  The bait-and-switch imagery has me thinking too.  How did the Qunari intend to "save the South"? And does it make a difference when we find out from Fen'Harel, who has the Qunari all hot and bothered, that the world may be in need of some saving?

 

And since the Qunari, and Qun-loyal Bull seem in possession of some information before my Inquisitor, namely the Fen'Harel thing, what else do they know that I don't?

 

Thanks for the awesome OP.  And thanks for the Qun/Bull free thought platform!

And it you let him say with the qun you get this.

 

 

 

Makes a pretty clear picture.

[fizzypop]

Bull lived under the Qun. He was raised to believe that the only thing that matters is the Qun's needs. That if you aren't Qunari you aren't worth anything. You may be necessary (quizzy sure is), but if the Qun demands it you will be wiped out. People are tools to be used. This isn't defending his actions as much as you can't expect someone to turn their back on their entire faith because you are a cool person. Make no mistake people are dangerous when they have faith and a cause. IRL religions have staggering death totals. Do you really expect someone to deny their own faith because they like you? I wouldn't put my bets on it.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Iron Bull didn't betrayal anyone.

 

Or at the very least he didn't betrayal an actual person. No, no, all he did was attempt to destroy a thing, a bas, a non-entity without purpose or constructive will. The way the Qun sees it the Inquisitor isn't even a real person. So why would Iron Bull feel absolutely anything bad about destroying you, let alone feeling as if he betrayed you.

 

It would be like saying you betrayed dust bunnies. Utterly ridiculous. 

[Kurogane335]

Plus there's the issue of the Qun raising all children in precisely the same environment. The similarity is really vague, is all I'm saying.

 

On this topic, I'm not certain that it is the case. Sten and Bull had very different childhood, so I think that each Tamassran is allowed a bit of freedom to determine how they'll educate the children in their care. Furthermore, I believe that before the children being 12 years old, the Tamassaran aren't really imposing a way on them, but instead try to present them a variety of possibilities (while probably trying to ensure that the children go for the way they were bred for) otherwise a lot of possibilities would be closed to the young Qunari.

 

Iron Bull became a Ben-Hassrath because he was a fighter and a liar during his early years, and his Tamassran believed that it was fitting for the Priesthood's agents. It must also be during this period that one child can "change sex" : a boy showing more interest for the feminine roles will be carefully groomed to see herself as a woman so she will better do her duty, and a girl with a love for fighting will be taught how to be a good man, fighting for the protection of all the Qunari.

[denise12184]

HopeVessel,

 

I think your initial post is awesome!  You make a lot of good points and ask a lot of good questions and they are ones that I've been pondering myself.  So to read your thought process has been productive.

 

I only have a few thoughts to contribute at the moment:

 

First, perhaps due to the way I earn a living, I was emotionally influenced by imagery.  I saved the Chargers and faced weeks of this:

He looks miserable, as if my advice to him ruined his being, his purpose - blood on his hand, his eyes shut to the changed world, the severed heads and corpses of his people laying all around him.  How could I have done that, I wondered as I looked at the card?  It's true that I don't have an affinity for the Qun, but couldn't I have just remembered that the whole reason Bull was with me (my Inquisitor) was because the Qun sent him?  He was them and they were him and he looks so dejected, so lost, so defeated.

 

Then Trespasser churned the already bloody waters.  I haven't done the Trespasser playthrough on my Qun-loyal-Bull character and probably won't.  I may have the gist of the story.  The bait-and-switch imagery has me thinking too.  How did the Qunari intend to "save the South"? And does it make a difference when we find out from Fen'Harel, who has the Qunari all hot and bothered, that the world may be in need of some saving?

 

And since the Qunari, and Qun-loyal Bull seem in possession of some information before my Inquisitor, namely the Fen'Harel thing, what else do they know that I don't?

 

Thanks for the awesome OP.  And thanks for the Qun/Bull free thought platform!

I had a problem with this card too, in the beginning. It does look bleak. But the way I saw it, Bull *couldn't* make that decision for himself. He looked to the inquisitor when Gatt told him what needed to be done, which told me there was some conflict in that choice. He didn't want to lose the Chargers, but going against the Qun was just so foreign a concept that he froze. Fine. I made the decision for him, and I was ready to accept the consequences. I don't feel like it was taking anything away from him, because he was already torn. If you think about it, he was torn between the beliefs he grew up with, and the people he'd come to see as a family. Have you ever been faced with that kind of crisis? Sometimes, you just need someone you trust to vindicate what's already there. If he'd been fully committed to the Qun, that hesitation would never have happened.

 

Whatever the inquisitor decides, you remove that doubt. If you sacrifice the Chargers, you reaffirm the part of him that is dedicated to the Qun. He falls back on that, because it's all he has left. The only part of his life that showed him something different is now gone. If you sacrifice the dreadnought and the alliance, it takes a bit longer, but you show him not only that he is more than his beliefs, but that the rest of the world is not so easily defined, either. In my admittedly biased opinion, it's a bit like taking Cole down the human path. He has the ability to grow. Under the Qun, Hissrad never had that option. To even want to do such a thing meant he was defective, and in need of being 'fixed'. 

 

I just got the feeling from everything Bull said that he wasn't really on board with all the Qun teaches, but he wasn't quite ready to break away, because he'd been told all his life that that way leads to madness, something he fears more than anything. Bull is a liar, and he's caught up in his own web of lies. He doesn't even know which part of him is real anymore, and it takes the inquisitor to show him. If you tell him that Iron Bull was all a lie, that the people he's come to care about are just part of the role he was playing, than there's really no reason to see anyone else outside of the Qun as anything more. He even tells you after you sacrifice the Chargers that the Iron Bull was 'a fun role'. If you save them, you show him that they are worth saving, that there is value outside of the Qun, and that he's not completely lost without it. You're introducing gray into a black and white mentality, which, in my opinion, is usually a good thing, and more importantly, he makes his own choice the next time around. Either way, when Viddasala gives her order, Bull reacts without hesitation. The inquisitor may have influenced the decision, but it's his in the end.

[Dai Grepher]

She's the highest ranking officer in the area. he has to fallow her orders.

 

No he doesn't. She's acting outside the Qun. She has no rank.