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[Patchwork]

It's worth pointing out that Bull also turns on the Inquisitor if his person quest isn't completed, so it's not so much whether the Chargers are alive that tips the balance for him it's watching the Inquisitor make a choice between the potential greater good and personal feelings.

[leaguer of one]

No he doesn't. She's acting outside the Qun. She has no rank.

1. The arishok did so as well and they fallowed him to the t.

 

2.Also....

[TheBlackAdder13]

No he doesn't. She's acting outside the Qun. She has no rank.

 

And again, inciting a war that isn't sanctioned by her-higher ups doesn't automatically make her Tal Vashoth so yes, Iron Bull still has to obey if he wants to adhere to the Qun. The Arishok did the same thing. He clearly had a rank in that his subordinates still obeyed him. I'm pretty sure if the Ariqun gave an order to a Sten instead of the Arishok, the Sten would still have to obey even though the Ariqun isn't the direct superior.

[QueenCrow]

I had a problem with this card too, in the beginning. It does look bleak. But the way I saw it, Bull *couldn't* make that decision for himself. He looked to the inquisitor when Gatt told him what needed to be done, which told me there was some conflict in that choice. He didn't want to lose the Chargers, but going against the Qun was just so foreign a concept that he froze. Fine. I made the decision for him, and I was ready to accept the consequences. I don't feel like it was taking anything away from him, because he was already torn. If you think about it, he was torn between the beliefs he grew up with, and the people he'd come to see as a family. Have you ever been faced with that kind of crisis? Sometimes, you just need someone you trust to vindicate what's already there. If he'd been fully committed to the Qun, that hesitation would never have happened.

 

Whatever the inquisitor decides, you remove that doubt. If you sacrifice the Chargers, you reaffirm the part of him that is dedicated to the Qun. He falls back on that, because it's all he has left. The only part of his life that showed him something different is now gone. If you sacrifice the dreadnought and the alliance, it takes a bit longer, but you show him not only that he is more than his beliefs, but that the rest of the world is not so easily defined, either. In my admittedly biased opinion, it's a bit like taking Cole down the human path. He has the ability to grow. Under the Qun, Hissrad never had that option. To even want to do such a thing meant he was defective, and in need of being 'fixed'. 

 

I just got the feeling from everything Bull said that he wasn't really on board with all the Qun teaches, but he wasn't quite ready to break away, because he'd been told all his life that that way leads to madness, something he fears more than anything. Bull is a liar, and he's caught up in his own web of lies. He doesn't even know which part of him is real anymore, and it takes the inquisitor to show him. If you tell him that Iron Bull was all a lie, that the people he's come to care about are just part of the role he was playing, than there's really no reason to see anyone else outside of the Qun as anything more. He even tells you after you sacrifice the Chargers that the Iron Bull was 'a fun role'. If you save them, you show him that they are worth saving, that there is value outside of the Qun, and that he's not completely lost without it. You're introducing gray into a black and white mentality, which, in my opinion, is usually a good thing, and more importantly, he makes his own choice the next time around. Either way, when Viddasala gives her order, Bull reacts without hesitation. The inquisitor may have influenced the decision, but it's his in the end.

First, thanks for explaining your impression of the tarot card and the Bull situation.  I can see that your thinking takes a clear path and your interpretation of what was presented to us in game - presented most likely as a function of game mechanics rather than good, logical plotline, in my opinion.

 

I guess I'll have to accept that the writers may have intended that saving the Chargers, people whose mercenary purpose put thier lives at risk regularly, was the one instance that would turn Bull away from lifelong beliefs.  Fine.  I'll chalk it up to a necessary function of the game that is required in order to make the player feel like they have a choice and the game is doing what it promised - giving the player an opportunity to shape the Inquisition.  And I'll chalk it up to the atmosphere on the forum that the notion that there is only one smart, reasonable choice has flourished.  Some people have their ideas and everyone else who may think differently is wrong and needs to be reeducated. LOL  They'd make good Qunari.

 

In my head, and I hope you'll indulge me for explaining how I read both the bloody "saved the Chargers" tarot card and the "Qun Bull" tarot card.  As you've said, the Tal-Vashoth card looks rather bleak.  It certainly seems that Bull is happier in the Qun tarot card.  It made me think that Bull is what he is.  He's a Qunari.  The fact that he can't seem to make his own decision is proof that perhaps he needs to be told, or reminded, of his purpose.  His very biology makes him a herd animal (and please know that this is no judgment on herd animals or Bull).  

 

He is Qunari, and to expect him to behave like anything else is rather like expecting a wolf to make a good lap dog.  It's a small differentiation, but allowing Bull to be Qunari answers a few questions.  It explains that his actions are a him acting according to his nature.  That means Bull isn't a bad person.  He just is what he is.  And it also means that the player doesn't have to be burdened with the judgment implied by the notion that Bull betrayed them over a bad game choice.  In fact, if Bull is just being Qunari, Ben-Hassrath, then his actions aren't a betrayal at all.  In my opinion the plot device is more solid when there's some acknowledgment that the Inquisitor might not be doing a good deed in trying to break a Qunari from the Qun.  It fits with the bleak, bloody tarot representation.  That notion also allows for the presence of the other choice in game and the idea that sometimes there isn't a clear right and wrong - the aspect of Dragon Age games that I've always found most compelling (and realistic).

 

P.S. (sidenote) Other companions' mechanics allow for the NPC to make their own choices - such as the player asking Cassandra to decide for herself about the Seekers.  But Bull definitely needs to be told what to do.  

[SweetTeaholic]

Should also meation: Bull's 'save the chargers' card is the Wheel of Fortune in the Tarot deck:

 

 Upright: Good luck, karma, life cycles, destiny, a turning point

Reversed: Bad luck, negative external forces, out of control

 

While his "save the Dreadnought' card is the Ten of Swords:

 

Upright: Back-stabbed, defeat, crisis, betrayal, endings, loss

Reversed: Recovery, regeneration, fear of ruin, inevitable end

 

And if you want more info on the two, here are some links:

https://www.biddytar...eel-of-fortune/  http://www.biddytaro.../ten-of-swords/

So tell me, in the end; which card is the most happiest?

[RoughTumble]

I don't have any knowledge of tarot so maybe someone can enlighten me.  Seems that each time we look at a DA tarot not knowing if it's upright or reversed it could mean a thing...or its exact opposite.

[SweetTeaholic]

Really, they could be taken either way. Upright for the WoF for Bull shows that he has a better life now as a Tal Vashoth but Reversed is the fact he's still afraid he'll slip into madness and become the same Tal Vashoth he fought in Seheron.

 

As for the ToS: Neither Upright or Reversed is really happy, but you could say that Reversed he's trying to get his life back together. Grated, his life is only the Qun now, but still.

[RoughTumble]

^^^Thank ya kindly

[Sifr]

Y'know, considering how the Qunari are willing to sacrifice a token force to give the illusion of something having more value than it does, are we even certain that the scenario we were presented wasn't part of some calculated ploy to test Bull's loyalty to the Qun?

 

Why would the Qunari send a massive dreadnought that close to shore, knowing it's size limits it's ability to manuever, in order to take out a single, small smuggling vessel? It seems like massive overkill on their part (even for them) and a completely boneheaded move, knowing it would open them up to any Tevinter mages still on shore. Bull does mention that they needed to leave deeper waters where they were safe to get their cannons in range, but that just begs the question of why they didn't use a smaller vessel for the operation instead?

 

Instead, what if the Dreadnought was an older vessel the Qunari were quite happily willing to sacrifice if needed be, manned with only a skeleton crew, thus forcing Bull into a situation where he would be forced to make a choice over his true allegiance?

 

Bull is seen as a valuable asset by the Qunari for his service and his place in the inner Circle of the Inquisition, so the Qunari want to keep him on their side. Yet at the same time, Gatt tells us that many people think he's already turned Tal-Vashoth, so they do doubt his true loyalty. It also could mean that sending Gatt was another calculated move to remind Bull exactly what he would be giving up if he chose to abandon his people.

 

If Bull chose to save the Chargers, the Qunari would lose an old ship with a minimal crew (rather than the 100 claimed in Trespasser) and one operative, something they probably don't see as much of a loss. Whereas if Bull choses to save the ship, the Qunari lose absolutely nothing and keep him in the fold.

 

After how they pulled the same ploy with the Gaatlok and Saar-Qamek in DA2, it's not too far-fetched they'd use this trick again to test Bull.

[leaguer of one]

No he doesn't. She's acting outside the Qun. She has no rank.

Except she does and she is working with in the qun. This is no different then the Arishok.

[ModernAcademic]

IB's greatest fear is Madness, as seen in the Fade (Here Lies The Abyss quest).

 

Which means he's in conflict with his job as a Ben-Hassrath and having to work for the Inquisitor. Having to do both won't end well, and he knows it. It's just a matter of time before his loyalty to the Qun will clash with his service to the Inquisitor.

 

Betrayal for him wasn't easy. The only way he can be rid of his fear is by accepting his new identity as leader of the Chargers.

 

 

 

No one can serve two masters forever.

[Dai Grepher]

Except she does and she is working with in the qun. This is no different then the Arishok.

 

The Arishok is on equal standing as the Ariqun, and the Ariqun is above the Viddasala. So you are wrong that this is no different than the Arishok.
 

If they had used the Ariqun to conduct Dragon's Breath, then I would agree with you wholeheartedly. But they didn't. And there was no force ready to sweep the south. Viddasala planned to use her troops to do that. Again, she acted unilaterally.