211 réponses à ce sujet

[Swordfishtrombone]

In theory the Templars are the safer option for what you need them for; sealing the breach. The mark on your hand was actively killing you just a short time ago; the plan with the mages is to channel more power into that mark, which is a risky proposition to say the least, where as the plan with the templars is to have them suppress the breach so the mark will work at normal power.

 

Aside from that, it's not unreasonable to come to the conclusion that the templars are the safer choice as allies. The high seeker is acting like a bit of a ******, but for the most part they seem to have their act together and are well organized. The mages, however, are in complete disarray. They've sold themselves out to a Tevinter magister and kicked out an Arl from his keep, and in general are in a bit of a sorry state. 

 

The ruthless, pragmatic option is to go with the Templars and let Ferelden clean up it's own mess in regards to the mages.

 

Even if you go into it with the intention of liberating the mages from the Vints and dealing with the Venatori threat, it could still be considered a wise move to recruit the Templars first, because they would be of tremendous value against a Tevinter magister and his followers. 

 

The things you mention ARE reasonable.... before you go to Redcliffe, and are thinking purely in terms of who to recruit. But after you go to Redcliffe, your priorities must have shifted: you are no longer thinking of who to ally with: you've got a deadly threat on your hands that has to be dealt with BEFORE you make the decision on who to recruit. 

 

So your inquisitor could believe all that you say, and fully intend to do their best at recruiting the Templars, but go to Redcliffe to hear out the mages, stumble upon the immediate threat and think: 

"Hell no, I'm not dealing with these mages; they are too compromized. I'm going to the templars. But first, this time magic thing is too big a threat to ignore - I must intervene at Redcliffe before going to the templars!"

 

So the question is no longer "who do I want on my side to help me?", but what makes trying to get the templars on my side for the closing of the rift a MORE pressing issue than dealing with the threat at Redcliffe? 

[Swordfishtrombone]

Yes. There's plenty as you can see from the responses.

 

See any I haven't responded to, and pointed out the weaknesses of?

 

I've thought this through rather deeply here, staring at the war table, wanting to click the "Champions of the Just", but being stumped as to a good reason why my Inquisitor would do that. 

 

I hate to make an unrealistic choice in role playing - a choice for which I can only find an after-the-fact justification, but can't justify based on what my inquisitor knows at that point. 

[ZombiePopper]

-Mages are killing scores of innocent people in the name of their freedom.
-And they willingly allied with tevinter.

Yeah they made their bed and now they're going to have to sleep in it.
(At least in my PT's where I sided with the Templars, we already have 1 threat, coryfishstick. We don't need to start a war with tevinter on top of that. The mages contract seemed self-imposed and legit and trying to free them would gain some negative response from tevintor, we would have to assume.)

A lot of the Templars have a valid excuse, ignorance. (Maybe not the best excuse.)

[thats1evildude]

Hmm... might just have to go with that, though it does seem a bit weak. That would require that the tevinter magister, his son, and Dorian constructed an elaborate ruse to get you to... what? Come to Redcliffe? But you were there already? What's the purpose of letting the person you intend to trap go, persuading him to possibly return later, and then trap him? Why not trap him immediately when he comes to you the first time, under the impression that he's meeting the grand enchanter at her invitation? 

 

You're not following me. You went to Redcliffe, and you learned that Alexius is planning to capture you, yes? So you go to Therinfal to get the templars' help so that you can counter the trap set by Alexius.

[JeffZero]

I had to think of something for a pro-mage Dalish woman; it was hard. I'd never done Therinfal Redoubt, and I don't replay games as often as the average BioWare fan, either, so I needed to justify it somehow.

In the end, it was a combination of a few of the things you've seen listed here, pretty much. It wasn't really quite enough for my Lavellan, if I'm being true to myself. But I pretended it was and went from there.

[Swordfishtrombone]

-Mages are killing scores of innocent people in the name of their freedom.
-And they willingly allied with tevinter.

Yeah they made their bed and now they're going to have to sleep in it.
(At least in my PT's where I sided with the Templars, we already have 1 threat, coryfishstick. We don't need to start a war with tevinter on top of that. The mages contract seemed self-imposed and legit and trying to free them would gain some negative response from tevintor, we would have to assume.)

A lot of the Templars have a valid excuse, ignorance. (Maybe not the best excuse.)

 

All of those reasons presume pre-knowledge on what is going to happen. I'm trying to RP the situation - i.e. I'm not supposed to know anything my Inquisitor does not know at that point. 

 

Thus she does not know that dealing with the tevinter threat at Redcliffe would force her to ally with the mages. She does not know that going to the templars would not result in just complete rejection, as had already happened in the first encounter with their leader. 

 

Thus going to the templars BEFORE dealing with the threat at Redcliffe seems like a huge gamble, and potentially fatal waste of time. She might well think that there's no way she'll ally with the mages, but also think that contacting the templars is not a time-sensitive issue, while dealing with the situation at Redcliffe very much IS. 

[Out to Lunch]

@OP I think you are making this more difficult than it has to be. When you choose to go help the mages, Cullen will give you an excellent military reason for why you should recruit a few experienced Templars first. At that point, you are allowed to change your mind and choose Templars first. From a RP stand point you do not know that you can't do both missions. So it makes sense to recruit a few experienced Templars and smuggle them into the castle for back up if things go sideways. It would be a minimal delay and again, from a strict RP stand point, Alexius seems very interested in you so there is no reason to believe he will not wait for a one on one meeting. Keep in mind, you are the only one that can close the breach...blindly walking into trap makes no sense story wise unless you are playing an arrogant inquisitor who thinks they are untouchable.

[SgtSteel91]

I can't accept the reasoning of "get the Templars first to help the Mages." It's too easy in game to assume the moment you deny Alexius' invitation and/or he hears about you going to Therinfal, and he'll know because you can't hide the fact you're getting ten Orlesian noble families to demand the Templar help with the Beach, he'll know what you're planning and get out of Redcliff with the Mages and then attack you; which is what happens after Champions of the Just.

[ZombiePopper]

All of those reasons presume pre-knowledge on what is going to happen. I'm trying to RP the situation - i.e. I'm not supposed to know anything my Inquisitor does not know at that point.

Thus she does not know that dealing with the tevinter threat at Redcliffe would force her to ally with the mages. She does not know that going to the templars would not result in just complete rejection, as had already happened in the first encounter with their leader.

Thus going to the templars BEFORE dealing with the threat at Redcliffe seems like a huge gamble, and potentially fatal waste of time. She might well think that there's no way she'll ally with the mages, but also think that contacting the templars is not a time-sensitive issue, while dealing with the situation at Redcliffe very much IS.

I'll concede that point on the Templars excuse,
But the player knows very early on that mages are killing innocent people.
After visiting Redcliffe you find out they allied with tevinter, and they're enslavement looks self imposed and binding.
Trying to free the mages could start a war with the magisterium,
So time to get the Templars.

[Cobra's_back]

IS there any justification, based on the events, for the Inquisitor to reasonably go the templar way?

Easy one for me. You walk in and find out they sided with Tevinter. Took the tranquil out of there, and let them deal with the King of Ferelden. To be honest I have no real logical reason to support them knowing a Tevinter magister pretty much took over a part of Ferelden.

 

Not to mention the fact that your advisers make it clear that both groups have the ability to help close the breech.

[Former_Fiend]

The things you mention ARE reasonable.... before you go to Redcliffe, and are thinking purely in terms of who to recruit. But after you go to Redcliffe, your priorities must have shifted: you are no longer thinking of who to ally with: you've got a deadly threat on your hands that has to be dealt with BEFORE you make the decision on who to recruit. 

 

So your inquisitor could believe all that you say, and fully intend to do their best at recruiting the Templars, but go to Redcliffe to hear out the mages, stumble upon the immediate threat and think: 

"Hell no, I'm not dealing with these mages; they are too compromized. I'm going to the templars. But first, this time magic thing is too big a threat to ignore - I must intervene at Redcliffe before going to the templars!"

 

So the question is no longer "who do I want on my side to help me?", but what makes trying to get the templars on my side for the closing of the rift a MORE pressing issue than dealing with the threat at Redcliffe? 

 

That's not necessarily the case. You can prioritize the potential threat of Alexius first, or you can reasonably say "you know, to hell with this" and go off to Therinfall. 

[Swordfishtrombone]

You're not following me. You went to Redcliffe, and you learned that Alexius is planning to capture you, yes? So you go to Therinfal to get the templars' help so that you can counter the trap set by Alexius.

 

Yes, now that I think of it, you do get to learn that Alexius is trying to get to you - though why he wouldn't have sprung his trap the first time you arrived (at the invitation he had arranged, so he knew to expect you), is a mystery to me. 

 

That's the danger of multiple playthroughs - I skip some lines that I think I remember, which risks forgetting something important. 

 

That does seem to give at least a plausible reason to go and try to recruit the templars, though it still isn't a very strong one: after all, you do have Cullen and some other "defector" templars already, which would seem to me to be enough to gain an edge, given that you know about the trap. 

 

But still, it IS conceivable that the Inquisitor might just want more security, and is even willing to take the gamble that the clearly unwilling templar leader might be swayed. 

 

Thanks.

[Swordfishtrombone]

@OP I think you are making this more difficult than it has to be. When you choose to go help the mages, Cullen will give you an excellent military reason for why you should recruit a few experienced Templars first. At that point, you are allowed to change your mind and choose Templars first. From a RP stand point you do not know that you can't do both missions. So it makes sense to recruit a few experienced Templars and smuggle them into the castle for back up if things go sideways. It would be a minimal delay and again, from a strict RP stand point, Alexius seems very interested in you so there is no reason to believe he will not wait for a one on one meeting. Keep in mind, you are the only one that can close the breach...blindly walking into trap makes no sense story wise unless you are playing an arrogant inquisitor who thinks they are untouchable.

 

I did not remember that you could change your  mind at that point - there's the optimal solution then, I think. Hearing Cullen's recommendation, and going with it. Thanks. 

[Panda]

Don't go to Redcliffe at all, instead listen Cassandra's remark that something is wrong with templar order and their leader and listen Cullen's advice that using mages to pour their magic to breach can be dangerous and templars would be safer bet.

 

There, rp justification for choosing templars?

[thats1evildude]

Yes, now that I think of it, you do get to learn that Alexius is trying to get to you - though why he wouldn't have sprung his trap the first time you arrived (at the invitation he had arranged, so he knew to expect you), is a mystery to me.

 

His son faked a sudden attack of his illness, and Alexius needed to tend to that first.

[Swordfishtrombone]

I'll concede that point on the Templars excuse,
But the player knows very early on that mages are killing innocent people.
After visiting Redcliffe you find out they allied with tevinter, and they're enslavement looks self imposed and binding.
Trying to free the mages could start a war with the magisterium,
So time to get the Templars.

 

To be fair, the player ALSO knows that the templars are killing innocent people. 

 

Also, after visiting Redcliffe, it looks very likely that persuasion other than the natural kind was used on the first enchanter to make her submit to Tevinter,

 

That, PLUS the immediacy of the threat of time magic makes it seem like the choice of who to get to help you with the breach is no longer the pressing issue: stopping the magister from using time magic to undo the Inquisition is. 

 

But I did just receive the justification needed to get me out of the dillemma, in a few posts above, so my inquisitor is off to get the templars to help me with Redcliffe, at the recommendation of his military adviser. 

[Gileadan]

My reason to NOT recruit the mages when I got to Redcliffe was this:

 

The mages had already fallen in line with the Venatori, a bunch of Tevinters who must be considered an invading force given how they took a fereldan town for themselves. Everyone was conscripted to ten years of service for Tevinter, including military service for children. No one protested, there was just some mumbling and shuffling of feet. And hey, have you counted your Tranquil recently?

 

Someone who is willing to pledge allegiance to a clearly not-so-benevolent invader may not have the finest concept of loyalty. Do I really want those people in my service? What if whoever exploded the conclave makes them a better offer?

 

So, we have magic using invaders from Tevinter. We  have mages who swore allegiance to them. We have demons falling from the sky. Therefore the type of ally I was looking for would ideally have been trained to combat all those threats, with military discipline and experience as a bonus. Hmmm...

 

I picked the mages in a later playthrough... and abandoned it a bit after getting to Skyhold. It just felt wrong to me. Or maybe I just shouldn't have talked to Fiona.

[Ryzaki]

That's not necessarily the case. You can prioritize the potential threat of Alexius first, or you can reasonably say "you know, to hell with this" and go off to Therinfall. 

 

That's what my circle mage did. They sent him away to make peace and the first thing they do when he gets back is go "oh we're allied with tevinter btw." He couldn't facepalm hard enough.

[Cobra's_back]

 

So, we have magic using invaders from Tevinter. We  have mages who swore allegiance to them. We have demons falling from the sky. Therefore the type of ally I was looking for would ideally have been trained to combat all those threats, with military discipline and experience as a bonus. Hmmm...

 

I picked the mages in a later playthrough... and abandoned it a bit after getting to Skyhold. It just felt wrong to me. Or maybe I just shouldn't have talked to Fiona.

 

I did as well but didn't keep it. DA2 I sided with the mages, and couldn't side with the Templars. This time it was the opposite for me. Only the Templar story felt right.

[Nefla]

If you don't go to Redcliffe and investigate Fiona's offer then you don't know what's going on there. The templars have been tried and tested to be the best at dealing with demons and magical shennanagins, I don't see why one of them hurting the inquisitor's feelings would stop you from trying to ally with them. Either way, after you play through whichever side you choose, the choice has almost no impact on the rest of the game. Which mook do you fight in the temple of Mythall, an optional sidequest, and a random NPC hanging out in Skyhold.

[ZombiePopper]

To be fair, the player ALSO knows that the templars are killing innocent people.

Also, after visiting Redcliffe, it looks very likely that persuasion other than the natural kind was used on the first enchanter to make her submit to Tevinter,

That, PLUS the immediacy of the threat of time magic makes it seem like the choice of who to get to help you with the breach is no longer the pressing issue: stopping the magister from using time magic to undo the Inquisition is.

But I did just receive the justification needed to get me out of the dillemma, in a few posts above, so my inquisitor is off to get the templars to help me with Redcliffe, at the recommendation of his military adviser.

Fair enough,
If you received an answer that helped,
That's all that matters.
I don't know,
For me, it was never difficult to choose one or the other but I'm sure that's not the case for everyone.

[TheBlackAdder13]

My inquisitor was already terrified and paranoid about mages but considered going to Redcliffe because of the immediacy of the plot. However, when Leliana told her she would have to be bait, she wasn't keen on that (see paranoia about mages, but also the fact that she's a vashoth mercenary and throwing the figure head of an organization that everyone rallies around into an obvious trap is a very poor tactical decision).  So Therinfold Redoubt it was. 

[Ashagar]

Well my human inquisitor was raised to join the chantry and was leery of the idea pouring more magic into a magical mark that nothing much is really known about which made me more inclined support Cullen's idea to to seek templar help though I still went to redcliff. My leanings to go to the templars was made more certain after meeting Alexis, the pro-Tevinter mage in the Tavern and then finding the shack filled with the skulls of murdered Tranquil.

 

After that series of events not even meeting Dorian was enough to make me not go for the templars for help as I was not going to go after a Magister targeting me who was messing with the fabric of time without Templars and I wasn't inclined to help mages who let tranquil be horrifically murdered at best under their noses or worse with their consent.

[jdgjordan]

From a narrative stand point that is one of thing's i did not like about DAI Fiona ask in val Royeaux (a scene you cant avoid) to have a meeting in Redcliff so narrative speaking it makes no sense just to ignore her and go to the Templar's (If this was say a show we be asking why the hell did they bring that plot point up and did nothing with it. It be just bad writing. and so you go there and a bang find out there this hole time bibbidi bobbidi boo plot over the mages and well as Dorion already introduced yes the inqu. as no reason to trust Dorion but as a narrative you don't bring this hole stuff up as well as this man who is going to be a main character, introduce his relationship with Alexius and not go anywhere with it. Cole on the other hand still works fine if you do the mage story line, every thing about him is still set up well and payed off. I also thinks it's slightly cooler of an introduction to have Cole knock on your door step informing you of an invasion. But this is just how i think i play games from a narrative stand point i sure many of you can come up with cool rp reason why you go to the Templar's its just fore me that not an option there to much story already invested in the mages just to up and ignore. Maybe if Fiona val royeaux scene was optional then maybe i could but its not so there you go.

[actionhero112]

In general, if you aren't a mage, it's likely you were raised in a way that taught you to fear or distrust mages if you're a human. Especially with the mage rebellion and the untold deaths that caused, I would think it unlikely that most people in thedas would actually go with mages over templars.

 

In terms of time magic's importance, I think it's safe to say that because you aren't dead, it's not that immediate of a threat. Power over time and space basically makes you a god, which means anytime you were sleeping, Alexius could have killed/captured you easily if he had control over it. The fact that Alexius hasn't even tried to do this, means his mastery over time is anything but controlled and is in all likelihood, going to end with Alexius blowing himself up. Not an immediate threat. In fact, this is confirmed by the rest of the game, which is functionally identical to the templar side, which means that Alexius never mastered time travel, and thus Cory was never able to use it.

 

The mages have just rebelled against the andrastian church, and you think it's a good idea to try and recruit them? You don't think it's a possibility that at the first sign of trouble, they might rebel against you too? Mages as a whole have proven themselves unreliable at best at this point. A lot of my inqusitors use this reasoning, because it seems idiotic to try and recruit recently turned violent rebels.