211 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

 

If you read the thread, you'll see that I've acknowledged several times when someone presented a good idea that might work - although none seem to be quite up to the task of overcoming the urgency of the threat at Redcliffe, some do get close enough that I was - as I have stated - able to go on and go after the templars, with a little head-cannon action. 

 

So to your question I answer, yes, I did actually, really, honestly post here looking for a GOOD line of reasoning that would allow me to go after the templars after finding out the threat at Redcliffe. That I don't accept every suggestion as sufficient to the task, does not mean that I categorically deny that good suggestions aren't possible. In fact, I found a few here, and this thread helped me do what I wanted to do: go the templar route even after having gone to Redcliffe and seen the threat there. 

 

To quote myself from an earlier post:

 

"The way I did it in the end was just to head-cannon it so that my Inquisitor was inexperienced with magic, and didn't trust her ability to deal with the situation, and going to the templars for help was a desperation move; one that backfired as she now discovered she cannot immediately go after Alexius with the templars after all. So she considers her actions to have been a mistake - and after seeing the templars fooled by a demon, she doesn't trust the templars enough to lead themselves, and subsumed the order into the Inquisition. But as she told Solas later, beggars can't be choosers, and she just has to make do with the situation as it is, and hope that Alexius isn't about to freeze all their asses. 

 

It still felt a bit weak to me, but it'll do, I guess. "

 

 

In fact, I don't argue at all that going to the mages is better than going to the templars. What I argue is that once you know the threat at Redcliffe, going to the templars BEFORE dealing with the situation there seems hard to justify. 

 

Don't be surprised, templar supporters always act like this the minute anyone doesn't worship the ground the templars walk and hates all mages. Apparently not suddenly despising all mages for what Fiona did is apparently a bad thing. Just continue siding with the mages since the only logical way to consider going to the templars is by never even going to Redcliffe in the first place. The game itself heavily leans towards you going to the mages. Heck, the Trespasser epilogues don't even mention the templars anyway so that itself shows you what way the devs are leaning.

[Bigdoser]

Narrative wise I feel bioware did not give enough reason to go to the templars in my opinion. No matter what you think of the mages. 

[Cobra's_back]

Fiona: We want freedom! So we sold ourselves to Tevinter! Yaaaay!

 

My Inquisitor:

Yes, I was thinking Fiona's head must be stuffed with Helium.

[ollyollyoxenfree]

This is one of the reasons why I much prefer CotJ, yes. While there, rather disappointingly but predictably, is no follow-up to being mentally attacked by a highly powerful demon,

 

You might find this interesting: 

It's cut content suggesting there was a follow-up and it made it as far as being voice acted but didn't make it into the final version of the game.

 

On Fiona, I never understood why she would attack you at Haven. At least Denam has the excuse of getting stuffed full of red lyrium. But unless the Venatori seriously messed with her using blood magic she joins up with the ancient darkspawn magister to try and kill you. Something that ought to appall her given that she used to be a warden.

[thesuperdarkone2]

You might find this interesting: 

It's cut content suggesting there was a follow-up and it made it as far as being voice acted but didn't make it into the final version of the game.

 

On Fiona, I never understood why she would attack you at Haven. At least Denam has the excuse of getting stuffed full of red lyrium. But unless the Venatori seriously messed with her using blood magic she joins up with the ancient darkspawn magister to try and kill you. Something that ought to appall her given that she used to be a warden.

The guide confirms that if you sided with the Templars, the rebel mages are brainwashed by the venatori into serving them. This is supported by the fact that Weekes said that you should follow the guide with regards to that, the fact that in the bad future, all the mages you see including that pro-circle mage are raving venatori supporters, the Leliana version of the Investigate Redcliffe castle mission revealing the venatori were performing some type of ritual on the mages, and the fact that the rebel mages you fight during in your heart shall burn outright look brainwashed with zombie skin and red eyes. Seriously, look at the faces of the rebel mages you fight during in your heart shall burn compared to the regular spellbinders you face elsewhere. They look brainwashed.

 

 

Thus, the mages get brainwashed if you sided with the templars

[Ashagar]

Don't be surprised, templar supporters always act like this the minute anyone doesn't worship the ground the templars walk and hates all mages. Apparently not suddenly despising all mages for what Fiona did is apparently a bad thing. Just continue siding with the mages since the only logical way to consider going to the templars is by never even going to Redcliffe in the first place. The game itself heavily leans towards you going to the mages. Heck, the Trespasser epilogues don't even mention the templars anyway so that itself shows you what way the devs are leaning.

 

As opposed to demonizing and dehumanizing those who who can see logical reasons to seek the templar's help and the templars themselves? Several people did bring up reasons to seek the templars even if they did go to Redcliff.

[The Hierophant]

Don't be surprised, templar supporters always act like this the minute anyone doesn't worship the ground the templars walk and hates all mages. Apparently not suddenly despising all mages for what Fiona did is apparently a bad thing. Just continue siding with the mages since the only logical way to consider going to the templars is by never even going to Redcliffe in the first place. The game itself heavily leans towards you going to the mages. Heck, the Trespasser epilogues don't even mention the templars anyway so that itself shows you what way the devs are leaning.

Stay mad.

[R0vena]

For me, or my inquisitor, the danger was clear, and it didn't depend on Dorian spelling it out, or not doing so. She had seen time magic already slow things down - she now knew that Alexius was developing this magic. So it is not a great leap in reasoning to see that IF Alexius succeeds in improving that magic further, he'll be able to simply freeze all his enemies, including inquisition forces and the inquisitor herself, in time, thus taking them out. If that happens, the templars or mages question is made immediately irrelevant: you've lost, and the world is doomed. 

 

So THAT is why it was so hard to justify my inquisitor not attending the danger immediately, and instead going off to try and recruit the reluctant templars. 

 

Here is how I see it for my Heralds (and of course, every Herald is different, so this may not work for everyone. I speak only for myself and my heroes.)

 

My first Inquisitor was Trevelyan Rogue. Her motto was Moderation and Diplomacy. She was religious, but not fanatical. She was sympathetic towards mages, but thought Circles were a good idea gone bad, but still worth salvaging with good management.

She didn't know anything about magic. Zero. So here comes Dorian (a Tevinter mage she doesn't trust fully since they just met and he could have some hidden agenda - pretty much everybody does, and she is a noble, after all, she is used to such logic) and tells her about time magic. What does she see as fact? Some rifts with some ripples where time slows or speeds up some seconds. Her companion mages she refers for expertise in such matters don't go "Maker's breath, do you realize what this means? We need to interfere now!" Neither does Dorian himself, for that matter. Even her advisers don't seem that worried about that particular problem. Leliana pushes for alliance with the mages for a lot of reasons but time magic is not one of them.

 

So why should she be worried if much more experienced in magic and politics people are not? She is concerned, of course, since a Tevinter magister is clearly after her. Her own military commander highly recommends seeking out templars, templars clearly will be helpful against a magister. And she is only required (as long as she knows) to talk to them. (Yeah, down the road - surprise!) When going to the Redcliff castle right away  may not work at all. Leliana agents may fail, after all. And she doesn't trust mages even a bit after seeing what they have done to people who offered them refuge in Redcliff. But templars she always respected and knows for fact some do not support views of the Lord Seeker.

 

As a result - she goes to the templars. In my point of view, most logical choice for her.

 

 

My second Inquisitor was a mage Lavellan. Completely different story. Never trusted templars, would do anything to avoid dealing with them. So she would ally with mages even without the time magic. As it was, she saw the implications and possibilities (being a mage herself, after all), but was more curious than scared. She even made Alexius continue his research under Inquisition supervision later.

 

And why wasn't she scared? Because time magic is something completely new. And it takes time to develop new branch of.. anything, really. She saw the rifts - so what? Obviously they are still in a very unstable and unreliable stage. If a mage can light the candle with magic it doesn't mean he is ready to hurl fireballs. That is her firm belief.

 

 

My third and forth Inquisitors went with the mages as well. My warrior Adaar was really freaked out by Alexius' interest in her and wanted to take him out as soon as possible. She didn't want Tevinter magister after her, no matter the reason. My second rogue Trevelian just liked Dorian on sight (and later romanced him).

 

 

My current Inquisitor, warrior Cadash, doesn't trust magic at all and mages in particular. He doesn't understand it and frankly doesn't want to. Besides in his - usually very practical - point of view the Fereldan army marching on Redcliff will soon take care of Alexius quite nicely for him. No reason to poke his nose in Fereldan-Tevinter business. Can get bitten off. I think it makes a perfect sence for him to go to Terinfal.

 

 

So.. here are the reasons for my heroes, for what it is worth. 5 heroes, 3 went to mages, 2 to templars.

 

 

My views play no role in it. I personally like the templar quest much better.

 

 

I also think we (players) would be much less worried if like our Inquisitors have never heard of time magic before and had a very vague impression what it could do.

[keesio74]

Narrative wise I feel bioware did not give enough reason to go to the templars in my opinion. No matter what you think of the mages. 

 

Agreed. To make it more balanced, they should have let you visit therinfal redoubt (just the outside area) without committing and let you talk to some of the more level headed templars to get a sense that something is very wrong there and there are many sane templars who are second guessing their leadership. This would be similar to visiting redcliffe without committing to the mages. After visiting both areas, then the choices are more balanced.

 

I picked the templars for a non legit RP reason - i was still pissed and Anders from DA2 and didn't trust Dorian. And this was the case even though I chose to help save the mages in DA2.

[KaiserShep]

When it really comes down to it, the main reason I basically never go to the Templars is because the narrative just doesn't provide a good support for going down that plot thread. There's no real "staging" of the Templar dissent and hints of something more sinister, beyond Cassandra's "Lord Seeker has gone mad!" and one unimpressive Templar who has doubts. The Herald doesn't know that guy, nor does she really know Cassandra that well at that point, so whatever. But with the mages, we get the whole time magic thing and the Venatori cult that has taken siege of a stronghold in Ferelden. By that stage the plot is already thickening more than that of the Templars, which is just stewing somewhere off in the distance. I don't really like leaving a story feeling half done, which is how it feels if I leave Redcliffe and never return. I could always just not go to Redcliffe from the start, but I have no good reason not to. At least with the Templars, I can just say "Whatever. Let those a-holes march into the wilderness for all I care"

[Shienis]

 

If you read the thread, you'll see that I've acknowledged several times when someone presented a good idea that might work - although none seem to be quite up to the task of overcoming the urgency of the threat at Redcliffe, some do get close enough that I was - as I have stated - able to go on and go after the templars, with a little head-cannon action. 

 

~snip~

 

My apologies for upsetting you, from your answers, especially the latest ones, I got the impression you're still unsure about finding any comfortable reason to go there, since you always counter every suggestion with "why you can't go there and have to stay with mages". If you have already picked something, I wish you best of luck and enjoy your game.

 

ADDED EDIT:

And no, despite of what some people might think, my intention wasn't to mock you or to insult you. The main point of that post was, that if you feel like you would curse yourself for the rest of the game for not helping the mages, then it's not worth it.

[Dulas]

Half of your inner circle calls Fiona's invitation to Redcliff a trap.
Your squad also presumes Felix is luring you into one when he tells you to go into the Chantry.

I'd say marching to the Templars at either time would be perfectly justified. As long as you don't talk to Dorian, Redcliff's situation isn't more dire than dealing with the Breach.

[electricfish]

I'm sure this has been stated already, but if you meet with Fiona in Redcliffe at all, there is no RP reason what so ever for an Inquisitor to go fetch the Templars. Southern mages notwithstanding, it would be dangerous and dangerously negligent to leave a hostile foreign power a defensible outpost in what is one of the major crossroads of Ferelden. The Imperial Highway is nearby, as is the Kinloch Hold Circle tower which contains artifacts, books, and whatever else they decided to store there. Not immediately dealing with Tevinter's foothold in the area (at the time your Inquisitor doesn't really know the Venatori are only a splinter group) could and SHOULD have had the consequence of possibly losing the Hinterlands to this foreign power. 

 

Saying you'll pick up the Templars to deal with Alexius and the other mages is a nice thought, but would never work. Your Inquisitor would have to march halfway across Ferelden to get to their outpost, and then engage in negotiations with Seeker Lucius, which would further waste time while Alexius does...whatever it is he's been send to Redcliffe to do. There's not even a guarantee that your Inquisitor would even be successful in getting the aide of the Templars. It could have ended up as a giant waste of time AND you'd still have Venatori with numbers bolstered by southern mages.

 

Really, the only reasonable RP reason to go get the templars, is if you don't go to Redcliffe at all. Your Inquisitor can have any reason they wish for wanting to get their aid, and it all works if you ignore Fiona. Maybe your Inquisitor is religious and had ties to the templars before the Conclave. Maybe you're a Lavellan who wants to leash or conscript the templars so that the mages in Redcliffe can continue to live freely, and save Dalish clans from being attacked by roaming templars. Maybe you're a Cadash or an Adaar who is highly suspicious of magic and wants the safety of the templars before potentially doing anything with Fiona. Any of those will work...as long as Redcliffe isn't on your list of places to go.

That little part makes the OP's post difficult to answer, since they specifically state that they went to Redcliffe and met with Fiona and now can't think of an RP reason to get the templars.

[Emerald Rift]

Agreed. To make it more balanced, they should have let you visit therinfal redoubt (just the outside area) without committing and let you talk to some of the more level headed templars to get a sense that something is very wrong there and there are many sane templars who are second guessing their leadership. This would be similar to visiting redcliffe without committing to the mages. After visiting both areas, then the choices are more balanced.

 

I picked the templars for a non legit RP reason - i was still pissed and Anders from DA2 and didn't trust Dorian. And this was the case even though I chose to help save the mages in DA2.

 

I agree.

Don't you also need more power to access the templar mission? That factor didn't help with choosing sides especially with the way you're introduced to the templars in Val R.

[Cobra's_back]

Bottom line IF you are saying there is NO RPG reason to go to the Templars, then you are saying the writers messed up. Bioware wanted to offer you two choices. Frankly, I think they did a much better job than DA2.

 

It seems some people are trying to force a direction. Just pick a path the story gives you all the hints you need to pick a path. Cass and Cullen offer the Templar path and Dorian offers the mage path. It is just that simple.

[Cobra's_back]

Half of your inner circle calls Fiona's invitation to Redcliff a trap.
Your squad also presumes Felix is luring you into one when he tells you to go into the Chantry.

I'd say marching to the Templars at either time would be perfectly justified. As long as you don't talk to Dorian, Redcliff's situation isn't more dire than dealing with the Breach.

Cass states this right after meeting Fiona. She also states we need the templars not lord seeker. There is room for both paths.

[nightscrawl]

And they want to use that weird magic mark that was previously killing you to close the breach by pouring a bunch of magic into it ("what could possibly go wrong with powering up something we barely understand?").

...
 
Alternatively you could convince the templars to weaken the magic so you can wave your weird magic mark around and hopefully close it.

This is spot on and I think they failed to make it more of a feature point in the game. These things are mentioned only once and are then eclipsed by other things later on (time magic, wonky Lord Seeker, horse racing, flirting with potential LIs, herb farming, spending 20 hours in the Hinterlands...). I don't recall from the Champions mission intro, but the Whispers one doesn't even mention the mark or the Breach at all, primarily focusing on Alexius being in control of Redcliffe and a part of some scary cult.

Regarding the templar solution specifically... While it's true that the full potential of a templar's abilities are never gone into, I've never felt that that plan seemed feasible. Of course, pouring magic into the mark seems highly volatile and extremely dangerous, but it just seems to me like it has a better chance of success. What if the templars weaken the mark and then make you unable to close rifts at all, let alone the Breach itself; then we'd be really screwed.

[TobiTobsen]

I'm sure this has been stated already, but if you meet with Fiona in Redcliffe at all, there is no RP reason what so ever for an Inquisitor to go fetch the Templars. Southern mages notwithstanding, it would be dangerous and dangerously negligent to leave a hostile foreign power a defensible outpost in what is one of the major crossroads of Ferelden. The Imperial Highway is nearby, as is the Kinloch Hold Circle tower which contains artifacts, books, and whatever else they decided to store there. Not immediately dealing with Tevinter's foothold in the area (at the time your Inquisitor doesn't really know the Venatori are only a splinter group) could and SHOULD have had the consequence of possibly losing the Hinterlands to this foreign power. 

 

Saying you'll pick up the Templars to deal with Alexius and the other mages is a nice thought, but would never work. Your Inquisitor would have to march halfway across Ferelden to get to their outpost, and then engage in negotiations with Seeker Lucius, which would further waste time while Alexius does...whatever it is he's been send to Redcliffe to do. There's not even a guarantee that your Inquisitor would even be successful in getting the aide of the Templars. It could have ended up as a giant waste of time AND you'd still have Venatori with numbers bolstered by southern mages.

 

Really, the only reasonable RP reason to go get the templars, is if you don't go to Redcliffe at all. Your Inquisitor can have any reason they wish for wanting to get their aid, and it all works if you ignore Fiona. Maybe your Inquisitor is religious and had ties to the templars before the Conclave. Maybe you're a Lavellan who wants to leash or conscript the templars so that the mages in Redcliffe can continue to live freely, and save Dalish clans from being attacked by roaming templars. Maybe you're a Cadash or an Adaar who is highly suspicious of magic and wants the safety of the templars before potentially doing anything with Fiona. Any of those will work...as long as Redcliffe isn't on your list of places to go.

That little part makes the OP's post difficult to answer, since they specifically state that they went to Redcliffe and met with Fiona and now can't think of an RP reason to get the templars.

 

Walking into Redcliffe gives you the one and only reason you need:

 

Time Magic.

 

That alone should be enough to turn back and get some professionals to suppress and deal with magic that nobody ever encountered and that wasn't even working until some monstrous, magical sinkhole appeared in the sky. Walking right into an obvious trap by a time warping magister was the last course of action in my mind.

 

Seeing how the mage quest turns out (as in: Without the dumb luck that Dorian get's sucked into the time warp with you, the entire world would've been doomed) was just the icing on the cake.

[electricfish]

Walking into Redcliffe gives you the one and only reason you need:

 

Time Magic.

 

That alone should be enough to turn back and get some professionals to suppress and deal with magic that nobody ever encountered and that wasn't even working until some monstrous, magical sinkhole appeared in the sky. Walking right into an obvious trap by a time warping magister was the last course of action in my mind.

 

Seeing how the mage quest turns out (as in: Without the dumb luck that Dorian get's sucked into the time warp with you, the entire world would've been doomed) was just the icing on the cake.

 

Yep. And it takes time to travel across a country to go get the professionals who wanted nothing to do with you to begin with. You've got weeks of travel time, and who knows how many days of negotiation to get through and there still wouldn't be a guarantee that the templars would help you. Time magic is freakin' weird and dangerous, and it would be a fantastic decision to say "hey..I think we need Templar help for this one" IF it wasn't attached to a hostile Tevinter presence.

 

That being said, I love the templar quest to bits and I normally choose that route anyway. I just offered up some political, logistical, and contextual reasons why it would be very difficult to choose going to the templars as an in-character decision AFTER meeting with Fiona and/or Dorian. I also offered several options for in-character reasons for an Inquisitor to actively try to gain the support of the templars IF they had not taken up Fiona's offer to meet her in Redcliffe.

[Scuttlebutt101]

You already have a major threat to worry about - a hole in the sky. The time magic, as urgent as it seems, isn't your concern. The breach is stable at this point, but no-one can know for sure how long it will stay that way. The mage rebellion is a mess, but the Templars seem to have their sh*t together, more or less. The way my neutral/pragmatic Quizzy saw it, the safest bet is to get the Templars, close the Breach and deal with the time magic afterwards, with her new Templar allies in tow. That is, if Anora hasn't taken care of the problem herself at that point. For all my Quizzy knew, the Breach and the time magic might be connected, so all the more reason to close it asap.

Also, the fact that the Redcliffe situation seems more high risk is another good reason to go to Templars instead. You're the only only one who can close the Breach and seal rifts, so taking unnecessary risks when there are other options is not wise. Granted, the Inquisitor has been putting her/himself in danger from the start, but walking into a trap of a time-manipulating Tevinter magister is not exactly the same as fighting bandits in the woods.

[bree101angel]

I have only done one Inquisitor do the Templar side. She was my Dwarven warrior. I rp'ed her to be the muscle that was called in to solve the problems for her Carta family, but she was extremely observant of things going on around her. After all, the only way to survive in the Carta is to be as smart as you are strong. She saw the way Ser Barris had reacted to the way the other templars were acting around him so she knew that there was unrest within the order at least with the younger members. 

 

However, she had little fear of mages so she decided to take Fionna up with her invitation to meet. Alarm bells went off the moment she entered Redcliffe and no one seemed to know that she was coming, so by the time she even got to meeting with Alexis she was on full alert. She didn't need Dorian or Felix to tell her that Alexis was going to try to set a trap for her, but she did hear them out. Between knowing that there was blood magic going on (talking to Fionna made that obvious) and time magic, she knew that she was out of her depth to handle the situation properly. She figured it was better to let the King of Fereldan handle the situation, after all he used to be a templar AND he was there to take down an archdemon so she figured he was no push over. She decided to go take her chances at convincing some of the templars to join her side instead of walking into a trap that would likely just result in her death and end any chance at closing the breach. 

[J-Reyno]

There are many reasons, some of which could just be faulty (from your perspective) judgement on part of the PC.  As proven by the thread, people have different ways of thinking, and they will act accordingly.  

 

My character was a human from a religious background.  The leader certainly didn't seem cooperative, but as a noble she has experience dealing with difficult people.  With an appropriate setting to discuss the urgency of the breach there's no reason to think it's impossible to come to an agreement. Also, she never went to Redcliffe in the first place because she has little confidence in a group of disorganized rebels.  At least the Templars still have some semblance of order even after breaking away from the Chantry.  That's not to mention the fact that it's pouring demons and the Templars are trained to fight this exact threat.

 

Honestly Templars really are the safer option, imo.

[Toasted Llama]

You already have a major threat to worry about - a hole in the sky. The time magic, as urgent as it seems, isn't your concern. The breach is stable at this point, but no-one can know for sure how long it will stay that way. The mage rebellion is a mess, but the Templars seem to have their sh*t together, more or less. The way my neutral/pragmatic Quizzy saw it, the safest bet is to get the Templars, close the Breach and deal with the time magic afterwards, with her new Templar allies in tow. That is, if Anora hasn't taken care of the problem herself at that point. For all my Quizzy knew, the Breach and the time magic might be connected, so all the more reason to close it asap.

Also, the fact that the Redcliffe situation seems more high risk is another good reason to go to Templars instead. You're the only only one who can close the Breach and seal rifts, so taking unnecessary risks when there are other options is not wise. Granted, the Inquisitor has been putting her/himself in danger from the start, but walking into a trap of a time-manipulating Tevinter magister is not exactly the same as fighting bandits in the woods.

 

I want to like this post 10 times.

 

I also want to add that:

1. Nobody knows if the creator of the breach perished with the explosion. The creator could still be out there and preparing to resume to destabilize the breach and tear down the veil, while our Inquisitor is busy trying to deal with the mages.

2. Nobody knows, at that point, who created the breach. The creator of the breach could be much more powerful and much more of a threat than time magic.

[BSpud]

I want to like this post 10 times.

 

I also want to add that:

1. Nobody knows if the creator of the breach perished with the explosion. The creator could still be out there and preparing to resume to destabilize the breach and tear down the veil, while our Inquisitor is busy trying to deal with the mages.

2. Nobody knows, at that point, who created the breach. The creator of the breach could be much more powerful and much more of a threat than time magic.

 

3. And Alexius could be fully or partly responsible for all of the above. Yet the solution is supposed to be: deal with it when more convenient? These are some timid Heralds y'all have.

[Toasted Llama]

3. And Alexius could be fully or partly responsible for all of the above. Yet the solution is supposed to be: deal with it when more convenient? These are some timid Heralds y'all have.

 

Alexius can never be fully responsible, there's evidence against that. You heard the voice of the person who created the breach, you don't know who it belongs to, but it doesn't belong to Alexius, that is certain.

 

If he's partially responsible it's be an even bigger risk to go to Redcliffe, because then it's DEAD OBVIOUS he's a decoy and trying to trap you while his partners continue tearing down the breach.