Some of us actual like to rp rather than make self inserts. The fact that you fail to grasp the role playing part of ROLE PLAYING GAME deserves a face palm .
it's almost like having autism makes that a hard concept. you made her why remake her? you asked for an rp reason and there's a million different answers >.>'''
it's almost like having autism makes that a hard concept. you made her why remake her? you asked for an rp reason and there's a million different answers >.>'''
The person you are responding to here isn't actually the OP - I'm the OP - so HE isn't playing the character in question. I am.
And the fact that there is a "million different answers" does not mean that there are a million different GOOD answers. Quantity does not substitute quality. A single good, solid reason that can stand up to the light of scrutiny trumps a million bad reasons that fall to criticism. If you read the thread, you see I've rejected at least 90% of the suggestions as insufficient to justify going after the Templars, or not actually addressing the dilemma I was in at all. And I've not just dismissed them arbitrarily, but given reasons as to why they don't work.
But, as I've said before, in several posts already, I DID find sufficient (though barely) reasons in this thread to allow me to go after the templars, though I had to re-imagine the disposition of my Inquisitor somewhat. Now, after the fact, my inquisitor considers her actions a serious mistake, as she did not expect that going after the templars would mean that she couldn't use those templars to go after Alexius. Now she's apprehensive about the unknown threat of time magic being still out there, and can only wish that her choice doesn't come and bite her on the ass; that she hasn't doomed the Inquisition.
The person you are responding to here isn't actually the OP - I'm the OP - so HE isn't playing the character in question. I am.
And the fact that there is a "million different answers" does not mean that there are a million different GOOD answers. Quantity does not substitute quality. A single good, solid reason that can stand up to the light of scrutiny trumps a million bad reasons that fall to criticism. If you read the thread, you see I've rejected at least 90% of the suggestions as insufficient to justify going after the Templars, or not actually addressing the dilemma I was in at all. And I've not just dismissed them arbitrarily, but given reasons as to why they don't work.
But, as I've said before, in several posts already, I DID find sufficient (though barely) reasons in this thread to allow me to go after the templars, though I had to re-imagine the disposition of my Inquisitor somewhat. Now, after the fact, my inquisitor considers her actions a serious mistake, as she did not expect that going after the templars would mean that she couldn't use those templars to go after Alexius. Now she's apprehensive about the unknown threat of time magic being still out there, and can only wish that her choice doesn't come and bite her on the ass; that she hasn't doomed the Inquisition.
MY bad.
I meant that RP answers can only be relevant if we knew beforehand what you were RPing as. All million of those reasons work and are good, just not at the same time for the same person, ya dig?
MY bad.
I meant that RP answers can only be relevant if we knew beforehand what you were RPing as. All million of those reasons work and are good, just not at the same time for the same person, ya dig?
Ah, now I understand what you mean. Though the nature of the dilemma: seeing an imminent threat that's hard to ignore, means that really the only thing you need to know about the character I'm RPing as is that she's capable of seeing the threat, and has no desire to die, or to let the Inquisition, and with it the world, be destroyed.
Any character that meets those loose criteria, who doesn't skip going to Redcliffe altogether, will be in the same position of almost being forced to go with the mages.
My Inquisitor considered it the height of stupidity to step into an obvious trap set by a man who can control time through magic, and who had an unknown number of other mages with him who may have been able to do the same, with no reliable way to shut them down. Since the Inquisition is extremely small at this point, with limited anti-magic resources (otherwise we wouldn't have needed either faction as allies to close the Breach), the Templar Order is the obvious counter. Given that the Order's primary contention with the Chantry is that the Divine wouldn't let them do their jobs, you even have something to offer them for their help. It is reasonable to assume that helping him re-isolate the mages would go some way to countering the Lord Seeker's surly disposition. It helps if your Inquisitor doesn't think Mage freedom is more important than saving the world from a demon spewing hole in reality.
In the Chantry, Felix outright tells the Inquisitor that his father is part of a cult that follows the "Elder One". While that could potentially be anyone, that's basically the only solid lead to finding the actual culprit anyone has at that point. The Templars offer no such lead. While the risk is considerable, discovering who created the breach and possibly even how may be worthwhile. That's really where my problem lies when I try a Templar-side playthrough. What if pursuing Alexius leads us straight to the source of the problem more directly? What if the "Elder One" is actually there? Sure, taking care of the breach is paramount, but there's also the risk posed by ignoring the Venatori presence in Redcliffe, and their association with a shadow figurehead who could very well be the evil silhouette in the fade memory. It's a heavy risk....but the prize.Alexius can never be fully responsible, there's evidence against that. You heard the voice of the person who created the breach, you don't know who it belongs to, but it doesn't belong to Alexius, that is certain.
If he's partially responsible it's be an even bigger risk to go to Redcliffe, because then it's DEAD OBVIOUS he's a decoy and trying to trap you while his partners continue tearing down the breach.
What I mean is it's not at that point a given that Alexius is only some semi-dispensable goon for a bigger bad. For all you know, he IS the bigger bad, or much more closely tied to a bigger bad than he turned out to be. The mage path offers more in potentially unraveling the mystery of the Breach. Time-warping fade rifts reek of a direct tie to the Breach. The Templar path is just clean up--which is fine, IF something more compelling wasn't on the table with Alexius. Other than possibly help closing the Breach after the fact, the Templars offer nothing more (at this point you're not really concerned with building an army because you have no idea Cory and his plans exist).
But yes, clearly, you already know by then there's a planned ambush. Which is why you come up with a plan to avert it. You know, if you travel cross-country to get the Templars, you can die along the way? You can die in CotJ. Every single moment the Herald spends out in the field is a huge risk. The Herald and the advisors are obviously not all that concerned with taking that line of logic to its extreme.
By the way, the Breach is already stabilized at that time.
He could be, he could also not be. Your Inquisitor doesn't know the truth, which is why it's such a risk. And the fact that Templars have the ability to counter or cancel magic actually gives them the inherent offer that they could deal with the time magic.
The plan you make to avert can still fail, especially because you do not entirely know what Alexius has to use and the most information you get comes from two Tevinters, who you have no reason to trust as of yet. You have to travel across the country to get to redcliffe as well, so the "you can die along the way" argument counts for both quests. (Dying on COTJ doesn't count either because that's meta-information) And being out in the open field is actually a lot less risky because the open field is not actively trying to trap you, added with the fact that it is most of the time open field, whereas the impregnable castle of Redcliffe is not.
Yes, at the time it's stable, but nobody knows for how long, which is why you're trying to close it and being trapped forever is obviously a bad thing. (Although I didn't mean that in the spontanious combustion type of way, but as in, whoever made the breach will destabilize it while you're capture kind fo way, forgot to add that, sorry)
In the Chantry, Felix outright tells the Inquisitor that his father is part of a cult that follows the "Elder One". While that could potentially be anyone, that's basically the only solid lead to finding the actual culprit anyone has at that point. The Templars offer no such lead. While the risk is considerable, discovering who created the breach and possibly even how may be worthwhile. That's really where my problem lies when I try a Templar-side playthrough. What if pursuing Alexius leads us straight to the source of the problem more directly? What if the "Elder One" is actually there? Sure, taking care of the breach is paramount, but there's also the risk posed by ignoring the Venatori presence in Redcliffe, and their association with a shadow figurehead who could very well be the evil silhouette in the fade memory. It's a heavy risk....but the prize.
The fact that Alexius follows the Elder One, only reinforces the suspicion that Alexius is a simple decoy, out there to trap you while the Elder One does his thing.
Alexius would most likely be trying his best to be the most interesting or "best" target for the Inquisiton, to make sure the Inquisitor walks straight into the trap. Dropping hints or trying to pose as the bigger/more immediate threat (while he might not even be the biggest threat) could be a part of the decoy tactic.
Aaaaand Dorian and Felix could be a part of that plan too, trying to push you into a certain direction.
And it's a really, really, really bad idea for the Elder One to be in the same place as Alexius, considering the Inquisitor is the only real threat to the Elder One's plans and can't be at 2 places at the same time. Normally (and in horror movies) splitting up is a bad idea, but when there's only 1 person that can stop you, it's kinda a good idea.
Anyway you get a +1 for using that incredibly appropriate (and creepy) Jacob quote!
EDIT: As a more general note, most decisions/actions are made using a risk vs. reward system, which varies greatly per person and is thus subjective. Which means that for some people doing x could be worth the risk whereas for someone else could not be. Maybe that can help some people when they struggle to roleplay a certain route.
And now that I think about it, that also makes the whole "which side do you pick" decision kinda hard to discuss about 
The Inquisition are not some kind of Ferelden Special Forces. Even if there is something going on with the Tevinters in Redcliffe, how is it in any way the Inquisition's job to get involved? They have no jurisdiction to act in Redcliffe (a point which Kind Alistair later makes, both in the quest itself and/or in a letter during the Shadows over Denerim Operation). They were not the ones who allowed the Mage Rebellion to find refuge in Redcliffe in the first place (a highly political and contentious move, considering the Chantry did not authorize the Mage's breakaway).
There is very little information on exactly what is going on. Even assuming that the Tevinters are illegally occuping Redcliffe Castle, they have (it seems) signed a legal contract with the Mages. So by interfering, you would be inserting yourself into the affairs of the Imperium, which they likely would not appreciate (assuming of course that the offer had been genuine, and remember that even when you hear the name, you know very little about who the Venatori are at this point).
Lastly, if you need to defeat a magical threat and battle against demons who may emerge from that threat (as they did the last time you approached it), then Cullen is precisely right that this is *exactly* what the Templar Order was founded to do. If you don;t think you need an army of demon fighting specialists, who also excel in controlling and suppressing dangerous magic in this circumstance... then when *are* they needed? Leliana and Cassandra's plan of pumping lots of power into your Mark (which they know nothing about and neither do the Mages), hoping it willl supercharge it and give you enough welly to smack the rift close...
Well let's just say that its probably best if you didn't tell the general public that this was your plan. It seeming like an outrageously dangerous long shot and all...
Lucius is acting like a complete fool, but as Cullen and Cassandra point out, he can't just keep on refusing to do nothing if the nobility and the people demand an explanation. He'll at least have to tell you why he's sitting around and doing nothing. And Cullen also points out that if Lucius is still unwilling, he knows that the Templars in general will want to do something, because that's the Order he knew. His misgivings with the Order are not because he doubts the resolve and integrity of the Templars themselves, just that the decisions regarding Lyrium addiction along with a continued lack of strong leadership and proper communication between Chamtry, Circles ans Templars have let problems fester for the sake of the appearance of calm and unity.
Fiona meanwhile, shows up at Val Royeaux for the world's shadiest and slipperiest introductory meeting, taking cues straight from 'The Sister Petrice Handbook of Condescending Schemers and Fifth Column Malcontents'. She's so suspicious in that scene, that I half suspected she was in on the whole thing, even after seeing her in that cell!
I'm doing a playthough again, this time with a Qunari rogue, and starting out, I thought I'd choose the templars this time - since last time I chose the mages.
But I've come to think about it, and I can't see any reason whatsoever why the Inquisitor would go to the templars - at least if she/he visits Redcliffe after Val Royeaux.
Given that at that point, the inquisitor only knows that what is happening with the mages is a huge threat that seems to call out for immediate intervention, while the only experience the inquisitor has had with the templars is their leader acting like a pompous a-hole, and seemingly completely shutting out the possibility of helping the Inquisition.
So... what sort of logic would allow the inquisitor to ignore the present threat at Redcliffe, and go on a wild goose chase to see if they could persuade the a-hole in charge to join the Inquisition?
And yes, I do know why the leader of the templars acted that way, but the inquisitor doesn't, at that point in the game. The only side that's shown any indication of a willingness to help is the mages, and in investigating that interest, the inquisitor finds a pressing threat that seems to demand intervention.
You only get any sort of justification for the templar choice after you've made it, and started Champions of the Just.
IS there any justification, based on the events, for the Inquisitor to reasonably go the templar way?
only 1 and only for a human non-mage Travelian who is by mainstream Orlais chantry zealot and have templars in family..its like sebastian
otherwise not a single one
some said about "need templars to go against Alexius" but they forget that we already have them with commanders as Cullen brat and seeker Cassandra, main core of our Inquisituion soldiers in the beginning is(and what i am personaly hate that we not have a choice) is templars butchers from Kirkwall and some divine loyals templars from other places who are not go with seekers and survived
and those who talk about trust is forget that you have a magic thing on your hand what can do a many things what is faaaaaaar more demonic that blood mages can do
so it is actually a very stupid and unwise thing for any theodosian man with some brains what was left in their heads exept Orlais Chantry teaching to go after remaining templars(and those who were claimed as heretics even by chantry divine and do a war to kill or inprison all nonbelievers and mages) cos everyone know what templars do with those who have magic....in such situations it was a best thing to cut any relationships with templars to make them more weak and have support with mages rebellions(and there is many secret noble mages in ferelden and orlais), Tevinter-Orzammar, nevarra and e.ts
not even talking about how templars are expensive cos of their lyrium drugs, and that they not have any powers to stop breach and demons(Cullen if someon would listen him says bullsh*t and eveyone said that its is mostly his belief that templars can do a bit with breach...we already see how they were "effective" before Inquisitor.)
we have enought info to understand that there is no any logic as profitable reason to side with Templars and Qunari in DAI and if you do you as you will know get punished in future and it was predictable
seems as if siding with the templars are what people do if they want to play the "evil" route
Leliana and Cassandra's plan of pumping lots of power into your Mark (which they know nothing about and neither do the Mages), hoping it willl supercharge it and give you enough welly to smack the rift close...
Well let's just say that its probably best if you didn't tell the general public that this was your plan. It seeming like an outrageously dangerous long shot and all...
It's actually Solas' suggestion.
That's one of my issues with the whole thing.
I like the story of the Templar quest more and actually chose that one for my religious Human Inquisitor. However, that's probably the only one where I've chosen the templar quest. Having Tevinter mages with time travel magic basically setting up shop in one of Fereldan's most important cities seems like a pretty urgent threat that really shouldn't be ignored. That and for my non-human or non-dwarf Inquisitors I think Josephine would have to work miracles to get ten Orlesian noble families to rally around my Inquisitor.
So, unless my Inquisitor never finds out about the situation in Redcliffe (or really hates mages), I can't see any roleplay justification to go to the Templars.
Legitimacy, you could say that the Templars would add more public support from both nobles and commoners alike, higher rate and better quality of new recruits, better results of training and more connections.
This is brought up multiple times in the game by Vivienne and others.
Really, had the state of the Inquisition actually impacted the game Bioware could have done without the greyderp and gone Right vs. Easy.
going to a trap set by a tivinter or go to fight a demon ? well templar all the way .
choising between facing templar being fooled by a demon or mage folowing a stupid leader (fiona) that made a deal with a magister ? templar all the way
bringing back to heaven mages or an army of trained man to fight demons ( witch is our problem right now ) ? templar all the waay
saving Sir Baris or fiona .? sir baris aaaaaal the waay
Calpinia or Samson ? Calpinia aaaaaal the way
seriously the only reason to side with the mages is to be a mage + a pro-mage that save mages in all game without caring of anything cause you love magic way too much
seems as if siding with the templars are what people do if they want to play the "evil" route
Not sure why you would see it that why both sides have done horrible things after all with plenty of self-righteous justification. One is a tale of redemption for the remaining hardline templars who were betrayed by their surviving leadership and the other is saving the radical mages from the slavery they sold themselves while betraying the helpless tranquil.
In the Chantry, Felix outright tells the Inquisitor that his father is part of a cult that follows the "Elder One". While that could potentially be anyone, that's basically the only solid lead to finding the actual culprit anyone has at that point. The Templars offer no such lead. While the risk is considerable, discovering who created the breach and possibly even how may be worthwhile. That's really where my problem lies when I try a Templar-side playthrough. What if pursuing Alexius leads us straight to the source of the problem more directly? What if the "Elder One" is actually there? Sure, taking care of the breach is paramount, but there's also the risk posed by ignoring the Venatori presence in Redcliffe, and their association with a shadow figurehead who could very well be the evil silhouette in the fade memory. It's a heavy risk....but the prize.
And now that I think about it, that also makes the whole "which side do you pick" decision kinda hard to discuss about
going to a trap set by a tivinter or go to fight a demon ? well templar all the way .
choising between facing templar being fooled by a demon or mage folowing a stupid leader (fiona) that made a deal with a magister ? templar all the way
bringing back to heaven mages or an army of trained man to fight demons ( witch is our problem right now ) ? templar all the waay
saving Sir Baris or fiona .? sir baris aaaaaal the waay
Calpinia or Samson ? Calpinia aaaaaal the way
seriously the only reason to side with the mages is to be a mage + a pro-mage that save mages in all game without caring of anything cause you love magic way too much
Wow. QED, man.
Going to repost my reasoning from last year:
"This was a tough choice. Historically, I've always sided with the mages, as they were just victims in the first game and mostly innocent in the second. I'm not fond of how Templars abuse their power, especially, after they up and walked out on the Chantry. Yeah, way to represent the Maker by dismissing his Most Holy, guys. I was ready to side with the mages the moment I started the game.
But right off the bat, the Templars sounded like better allies. The first thing your advisors say is that the mages can probably supercharge you with magic to counter the rift, while the Templars can hit it with anti-magic and shrink it down enough for you to close it. That's not really a hard choice. We're dealing with raw, unstable magic that no one has seen before, and you want to pump my body with a ton of magic to hopefully counter it? I'm trying to close the damn thing, not get into an arms race with it. I'd much prefer to contain it as much as possible.
Two, we are fighting demons and weird magic. Who is trained to fight demons and weird magic? Templars. Who is vulnerable to demonic possession and weird magic? Mages. I mean, the Chevaliers are good in a fight, but when you need to fight Darkspawn, you don't go running to them. Plus, we have already seen what happens to mages in areas where the veil is thin, so marching an army of them right up to a massive tear does seem like a pretty stupid thing to do.
Three, Eric Trevelyan was a good Chantry boy who had always heard about the heroism and nobility of the Templars. He would probably have joined them, had fate not had other plans. From a pure roleplaying perspective, he would be much more likely to back the straightforward, pragmatic Templars than rebellious mages.
But all that being said, I was very unimpressed with their debut in Val Royeaux. Casually smacking an old woman is not cool. I was weirded out when I heard that the Lord Seeker had changed his personality almost completely, and all in all, I didn't feel like wading into their self-righteous piety and ludicrous priorities. While leaving the city, Fiona's offer seemed much better.
But when I got to Redcliffe to make the alliance, you know what I found? The mages have signed up with the goddamn Tevinters! Oh wait, did I say "signed up"? I really meant "willingly sold themselves into slavery"! You know, to the Tevinter Imperium, the go-to cautionary tale for all magical corruption. The place filled with so much blood magic, demons, maleficar, and slaves that mages would call it ridiculously overblown Chantry propaganda if it didn't actually exist! Oh, and it turns out, I never met the real Fiona, that was some crazy doppelganger or something, no one seems to really know.
Oh, but it's not that bad, the Magister's son says he is secretly working with another Magister against his father. He's discovered weird time magic, and taken over a massive impenetrable fortress. All I have to do is trust this random Tevinter, walk alone and unarmed into the single most defensible location in all of Ferelden, while sending my spymaster and her best agents into the lion's den through a dodgy secret passage that may or may not exist. And the Tevinters may or may not know about it. All for a few hundred mages so stupid they actually allied with Tevinter, as I can't emphasize that enough. So they can join the Inquisition and slam my fragile mortal body with an unbelievable amount of magic, hoping it won't kill me or trigger something or react violently or Maker knows what else. And if I survive that, they can go on to fight demons, an enemy they are famously susceptible too, and frighten all the common people of Orlais and Ferelden.
That's a bad plan, to put it mildly. Risk vs. reward was skewed so far I just couldn't justify it. So I sided with the Templars, and didn't look back."
seems as if siding with the templars are what people do if they want to play the "evil" route
In DA2, but not DAI.
The game designer gave you two reasonable choices.
Not sure why you would see it that why both sides have done horrible things after all with plenty of self-righteous justification. One is a tale of redemption for the remaining hardline templars who were betrayed by their surviving leadership and the other is saving the radical mages from the slavery they sold themselves while betraying the helpless tranquil.
Well stated. I really think what they did to the tranquils was heinous. Not to mention what Connor said: If I wasn't here to stop them, every family would be missing a daughter or son. Just Creepy!
^ The justification that the situation in Redcliffe is a mess just doesn't do it for me - it is precisely because it is such a mess it needs to be dealt without delay. The mess, after all, has dangerous elements that are likely to become an immediate threat (time altering magic!), and lead to the fall of the Inquisition.
And for all the inquisitor knows, he/she can always go to the templars after the situation in Redcliffe is defused; the inquisitor doesn't even have to think that they'll end up allying with the mages. Instead he/she can view the mission as an immediate response to deal with an immediate existential threat; a threat that doesn't allow one to gamble on delay.
This is why when I side with the templars I don't visit Redcliffe first, if you never go to redcliffe than you don't know there's any problem there. But you do know, because of Cassandra, that the Lord Seeker is acting strangely.
This is why when I side with the templars I don't visit Redcliffe first, if you never go to redcliffe than you don't know there's any problem there. But you do know, because of Cassandra, that the Lord Seeker is acting strangely.
True and she also states you don't need the lord seeker just the templars. Cullen tells you the templars can help you close the breach. Cass states the mages could be a trap when you get back from Val Royeaux .
Accepting a fight against people who have Time Control Magic without the aid of the Templars to counteract it would be uttrerly suicidal. And before you say anything about the Inquisitor succeeding in 'In Hushed Whispers', I would point out that Alexius successfully cast his spell, and it could have sent you anywhere. It was sheer dumb luck that it sent you somewhere that you would have the chance to reverse it.
Not to mention that Leliana's plan is flimsy beyond belief - you have no way of knowing how many enemies are inside the castle, or what magics and allies they have ready. You also don't know who you can trust in the Mage Rebellion, as some are clearly fully on board with the Tevinter alliance. Sneaking in past some possesed corpses in Origins was one thing. Connor was the only truly sentient enemy present, and he (or it) was having trouble focusing on the real world. But you are trying to sneak into a place guarded by actual people - people who may very well already know about the secret passage. You'd look a right bunch of fools if you marched in, only to find Leliana's people had run into a literal brick wall, where the Tevinters had blocked the old passage.
Its a half baked plan cooked up on the spot, and you don't have any reliable information on what is going on, who you can trust or whether you should even be attempting any of this at all. Because again, it isn't your business - the Inqusition has no rights or priviliges to represent Ferelden in any way, shape or form. Alistair and Anora do not recognize their right to be there, Josephine admits that even if you asked, Teagan and the crown would probably tell you to mind your own business. Taking everyone's problems and deciding that gives you the right to interfere does not make it true in practice. The Inquisition continually expands its mandate, with no official permission to do so (their original mandate was to stop the Mage/Templar war, but they far, far exceed that).
So the only basis you have to act if you genuinely believe the Mage Rebellion are vital to closing the breach. And I would suggest you have no such evidence for that. Without that, you have no basis to overturn Alexius' legal contract with the Mages. You might wish they came with you instead, but that's just tough, isn't it? Ergo you must attempt this cobbled together espionage plan and hope it does't all turn out to be above board. You may not like Tevinter very much, but acting against them and seeking to sabotage their business 'because they're from Tevinter' is no justification for anything!
People also would (and do) question why you didn't simply seek the Templar Order out instead. And since the Order falls because you failed to do so, despite having someone who knew Lord Seeker Lucius and who *knew* something was wrong, you can (and should quite frankly) be blamed for what happens with the Red Templars. (There's a limit to that blame of course, and hindsight is 20/20 - knowing something is up isn't the same as saying you should know he'd been replaced by a demon, but it won't be viewed favorably that you didn't act on your suspicions, instead getting involved in this misadventure with the Mages).
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