211 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

Not to mention that Leliana's plan is flimsy beyond belief - you have no way of knowing how many enemies are inside the castle, or what magics and allies they have ready. You also don't know who you can trust in the Mage Rebellion, as some are clearly fully on board with the Tevinter alliance. Sneaking in past some possesed corpses in Origins was one thing. Connor was the only truly sentient enemy present, and he (or it) was having trouble focusing on the real world. But you are trying to sneak into a place guarded by actual people - people who may very well already know about the secret passage. You'd look a right bunch of fools if you marched in, only to find Leliana's people had run into a literal brick wall, where the Tevinters had blocked the old passage.

In Leliana's defense, we're told in Origins that the passage was a secret of the Guerrin family.  Its unlikely anyone knew about it except Teagan, who fled before the Venatori could capture or kill him.  They were only in control of the castle for a brief time before the inquisitor arrived.  Its unlikely anyone discovered the passage unless they were actively searching for secret entrances in the dungeons.  Also, Leliana could have sent a runner through the passage first to check if it was viable before the Inquisitor entered the Castle.  Ignoring the redesign, Leliana also knows the layout of the Castle and can predict probable guard postings.  So can her agents if they're as competent as advertised.  She also would have been able to gather intelligence on the Venatori numbers through the local villagers, circle mages unhappy with the alliance or even tracking how much food they purchase from the locals, supplies they brought with them must have been running low so far from home.

 

It isn't a flawless plan, but it isn't flimsy.

[Marshal Moriarty]

An unknown number of enemies, not counting the Mage Rebellion's own members whose actions and loyalties are impossible to know, sketchy information and no way to know if parties like Fiona, Dorian and Felix can be trusted, the fact that Leliana's agents are not some superhuman 'we will always defeat enemy scouts' elites (after all, once Dorian and the Inquisitor are removed from the picture, Alexius apparently defeats them all on his own), plus the fact that you know nothing of this Time Magic. Dorian claims he knows about it, but you only have his word, and by his own admission the version he knew of, didn;t work.

 

Alexius is a magister of some reknown. He could have all manner of magical traps and creatures at the ready. Perhaps you've heard the rumors that Tevinters have been known on occasion to practice blood magic. Which nobody present has the slightest defence against, unless Dorian keeps an emergency stash of Litanies of Adralla lying about. If he also has mages with him with such abilities, (as it seems likely he does, given the fact he beats all your agents and takes them captive), then you'll be in a bit of a fix really, won't you? Just the final battle alone makes it clear how flawed the plan was, seeing as how your party have their hands full with Alexius on his own, let alone with any backup he may have had at the start of the quest.

 

Let's also not forget that as suspicious and obvious a trap as his invitation is, your casual acceptance on it is just as obvious a deception. The man has survived Tevinter politics long enough to become a man of mature years. He's no fool, for crying out loud!

 

If the Mage Rebellion also turn out to come down on his side, if they turned on your forces once inside the castle, then you'd find yourself on a silver plate with an apple in your gob, being delivered to Corypheus.  The 'plan' is atrocious. Its only one step up from Isabella's 'Knock on the door, when they answer, do something flashy and exciting and hopefully win'. Sending you in as bait, against unknown odds through a route that hasn't been verified, and with the near certain knowledge that the enemy has a power against which your defence is 'Well, I saw something like it and maybe I'll know something more when I see it'.

 

Brilliant, just brilliant. This is the crack team that Thedas is counting on? The idea of relying on a suprise attack against a person who can travel in time once he's seen what you're up to.... Now there's a problem there, if I could just put my finger on it...

[BSpud]

People also would (and do) question why you didn't simply seek the Templar Order out instead. And since the Order falls because you failed to do so, despite having someone who knew Lord Seeker Lucius and who *knew* something was wrong, you can (and should quite frankly) be blamed for what happens with the Red Templars. (There's a limit to that blame of course, and hindsight is 20/20 - knowing something is up isn't the same as saying you should know he'd been replaced by a demon, but it won't be viewed favorably that you didn't act on your suspicions, instead getting involved in this misadventure with the Mages).

 

I was kinda hanging in where you were going, even though you were unnecessarily stretching things, but you totally lost me with the quoted part. That is just silly. You way oversold it, dude.

[Heimdall]

An unknown number of enemies, not counting the Mage Rebellion's own members whose actions and loyalties are impossible to know, sketchy information and no way to know if parties like Fiona, Dorian and Felix can be trusted, the fact that Leliana's agents are not some superhuman 'we will always defeat enemy scouts' elites (after all, once Dorian and the Inquisitor are removed from the picture, Alexius apparently defeats them all on his own), plus the fact that you know nothing of this Time Magic. Dorian claims he knows about it, but you only have his word, and by his own admission the version he knew of, didn;t work.

Not unknown, as I said. Alexis didn't teleport his men into the castle, the walked, they must get supplies, probably from Redcliffe. Using the villagers as an intelligence resource, Alexius' they should be able to get an approximate figure for the opposition. The same goes for the Circle mages. Remember also, the passage isn't a Trojan horse, they don't have to send the one team, they can send multiple teams through to get the job done, and they do have the elment of surprise against an opponent that thinks it's safe and secure. As for Dorian and Felix, I believe Dorian outright tells you going to Redcliffe Castle is a trap. He doesn't do anything but work against Alexius. It's difficult to see how his actions could be duplicitous at that point. As for confronting time magic without Templars, this is a question of trade off. Going for Templars means leaving that dangerous unknown magic to its own device and the circle mages to the mercy of the Venatori, an avowed enemy. All this to go beg for aid from an order whose leader has made it clear he doesn't want anything do with you or the Inquisition. You don't know if you'll get their support at all.
 

Alexius is a magister of some reknown. He could have all manner of magical traps and creatures at the ready. Perhaps you've heard the rumors that Tevinters have been known on occasion to practice blood magic. Which nobody present has the slightest defence against, unless Dorian keeps an emergency stash of Litanies of Adralla lying about. If he also has mages with him with such abilities, (as it seems likely he does, given the fact he beats all your agents and takes them captive), then you'll be in a bit of a fix really, won't you? Just the final battle alone makes it clear how flawed the plan was, seeing as how your party have their hands full with Alexius on his own, let alone with any backup he may have had at the start of the quest.

This is a risk, but not a big one. Alexius has been inhabiting the castle for a very short time and he spent most of that time securing the loyalty of the mages and probably trying to perfect his time magic to save Felix. The point of a Castle is to keep enemies outside the walls, conjuring elaborate death traps within the corridors is as much a threat to his men as the intruders from the hidden passage he doesn't know exists. It wouldn't be his first priority, he doesn't get that paranoid until later. The Litany of Adralla defends against mind control but if I'm not mistaken that requires the caster acquire the subject's blood, so not a huge risk in the moment.

 The reason he could defeat the without the Inqusitor was because he was able to take advantage of their shock and losing their strongest fighter. If he created rifts as he did in the future, then they would have no defense against that without the Inqusitor.

Brilliant, just brilliant. This is the crack team that Thedas is counting on? The idea of relying on a suprise attack against a person who can travel in time.... Now there's a problem there, if I could just put my finger on it...

And the alternative is leaving him to master time magic further while you go plan a frontal assault with Templars, there's no way time manipulation could help him get around that, right?

[Marshal Moriarty]

Bspud (that's a hell of a name!)

 

You claim I oversold it, yet the quoted passage has me saying that it would be an unfair accusation to make, even if there were some truth in it. As is pointed out by many in the game, the Templars are considered heroes and the mages are considered villains for forcing this conflict. Many in Haven if you listen to them speculate that even if the mages did heal the breach, it would only be them fixing a problem they likely caused in the first place. I am not saying you should be held entirely responsible - the point I made was that your actions recruiting the mages are already seen as suspicious, even after the Breach is sealed. If there is even the suggestion that you knew something was amiss with the Templars, but prioritized the Mages over them, it will not go down well. I can't see how that is overselling anything. You *would* have some stake in the blame, but the perception of that blame would be blown up, as everyone always needs somebody to blame.

 

And Heimdall, the game itself proves you wrong on your tactical analysis. Alexius wins that confrontation after you are removed, so your forces plainly were not enough to defeat him. And saying that it might have gone differently had he not cast his spell is pointless - he *did* cast it, as you knew he could with what you had been told. You went up against a powerful opponent, known to posses a deadly weapon and he used it successfully on you. All of this was predicted by Cullen, and he was right. By sheer good fortune, the spell places you in a position from where you can reverse it, but there is no way you could have banked on any such glorious good fortune.

 

The plan failed in the most obvious way it was likely to fail - because attacking someone who can use Time Control magic when you have *no* defence against it is absurd.

 

Saying that your opponent has a deadly weapon, so the smartest course of action is to go in blindly by yourself with just your forces, not recuit the organization who speclalize in disrupting magic, not seek assistance from the crown who would (and are!) sending soldiers of their own, Try to understand, that you have no special abilities or knowhow or training that make you right for this! Saying something must be done, is not the smae as being able to get it done. You have no defence against this Time magic, Leliana's people have no training or abilities to resist Blood Magic or combat magical familiars, demons etc and despite your claims, no way of knowing what and how many enemies you will face, nor who can be trusted. And so it proves - the evidence is right in front of you! Its what happens!

 

And leaving the Mages in the hands of the Venatori? You have done nothing of the sort - they did that themselves! Saying that you can probably trust most of them, because... well, 'let's hope we can!' is nonsense. As for Dorian, you just met him! He's helped you, but then inserted himself into your plans to come with you, under the guise of warning you against magical traps. And if he betrays you, as he very well could? What evidence do you have of any of what he claims? Cassandra and Mother Giselle still don't trust him in Act 2, so I highly doubt they encourage you to take his word at this point!

 

You are making assumptions and generalizations about the motivations of people your characters have either just met or have not met (in the case of most of the rebel mages). The Mage Rebellion is full of disparate elements, united only by their desire to be free of the Chantry - which many people comment that the Inquisition is seen to be a part of, no matter how inaccurate that actually is. You have no way of knowing how widespread the support for this merger is, and if even just a fraction of the mages support it genuinely, then you'd have even greater odds stacked against you. You are not equipped to handle even a small amount of dangerous mages, let alone lots and lots of them.

 

And again, you are falling into the trap of simply accepting the line that Bioware feeds you. That you can and should and must act, because something is going on and you are the Good Guys so its your job, right? Wrong. This is a matter for Ferelden and Tevinter to work out, for the Venatori (whose motivations you do not know at this point) and the Mage Rebellion, for Fiona and Alexius and the Ferelden monarchs to work out. The Inquisition is operating on a very questionable open ended mandate that it keeps altering to suit its needs. Its authority to act is by no means recognized by all or even very many people at this point, and certainly not on a matter that you have no evidence has any bearing on your mission to seal the breach.

 

You might *want* the Mages, but if they are already commited to someone else, then that's that as far as most people would be concerned. You sticking your oar in and further complicating the situation will be seen as meddling for your own gain. Remember that it isn't until Haven that you learn there is a true threat lurking out there beyond the Breach. At this point, the venatori are just a name that it is suggested to you, has an interest in you. Until the connection at Haven is established, Alistair and Anora (or whoever) is perfectly justified in throwing you out and telling you this was none of your concern.

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

Not sure if this is simply adding fuel to the fire but you really have no legal jurisdiction to go into redcliffe. The inquisition is at this point a fumbling disavowed allegedly heretical organization trying to build allies. Defying the throne of ferelden isn't the best play there by far.

[Wolven_Soul]

I'm doing a playthough again, this time with a Qunari rogue, and starting out, I thought I'd choose the templars this time - since last time I chose the mages. 

 

But I've come to think about it, and I can't see any reason whatsoever why the Inquisitor would go to the templars - at least if she/he visits Redcliffe after Val Royeaux.

 

Given that at that point, the inquisitor only knows that what is happening with the mages is a huge threat that seems to call out for immediate intervention, while the only experience the inquisitor has had with the templars is their leader acting like a pompous a-hole, and seemingly completely shutting out the possibility of helping the Inquisition.

 

So... what sort of logic would allow the inquisitor to ignore the present threat at Redcliffe, and go on a wild goose chase to see if they could persuade the a-hole in charge to join the Inquisition?

 

And yes, I do know why the leader of the templars acted that way, but the inquisitor doesn't, at that point in the game. The only side that's shown any indication of a willingness to help is the mages, and in investigating that interest, the inquisitor finds a pressing threat that seems to demand intervention. 

 

You only get any sort of justification for the templar choice after you've made it, and started Champions of the Just. 

 

IS there any justification, based on the events, for the Inquisitor to reasonably go the templar way?

 

Well, the mage issue is a threat, and the templars are the best way to deal with mages, only thing I can think of.

[nightscrawl]

Here is an interesting tidbit... After you leave the Chantry there is a banter fire where 1/3 or 2/3 of the party will talk about the issue. There is one between Cassandra and Solas where she says that this whole thing [with Tevinters and such] is "distasteful" and suggests going to get the templars instead, and Solas responds by saying that he doesn't think that the Breach can wait.

 

There is also another instance where Solas wonders about the circumstance of "both Alexius's son and apprentice" betraying him, and Varric says that he "thinks Dorian was telling the truth, as weird as that is."

 

I post these because I think they are interesting examples of the game (read: the devs) trying to discern some of the things the players might be thinking -- which have in fact been suggested in this thread -- and responding to those via these banters.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Here is an interesting tidbit... After you leave the Chantry there is a banter fire where 1/3 or 2/3 of the party will talk about the issue. There is one between Cassandra and Solas where she says that this whole thing [with Tevinters and such] is "distasteful" and suggests going to get the templars instead, and Solas responds by saying that he doesn't think that the Breach can wait.

 

There is also another instance where Solas wonders about the circumstance of "both Alexius's son and apprentice" betraying him, and Varric says that he "thinks Dorian was telling the truth, as weird as that is."

 

I post these because I think they are interesting examples of the game (read: the devs) trying to discern some of the things the players might be thinking -- which have in fact been suggested in this thread -- and responding to those via these banters.

 

Interesting. Though I do find it somewhat surpricing that Solas would be - at this point - concentrating on the breach, and not on the time magic. I get the picture that Bioware developed a bigger threat for the Redcliffe quest line than they intended; they might not have really worked out that a player going into that blind, would work out that "control over time" being gained by an enemy of the Inquisition would trump the breach as an immediate threat. It's written as if they expected the player to be meta-gaming it, rather than role playing it, and thus having the question "which side am I going to recruit for the closing of the breach" as the only consideration. 

 

When in fact, I found it difficult to even justify keeping that question as a secondary consideration, once my Inquisitor learned of Alexius' time magic. Don't get me wrong - it made for a good story, with the time travel, if you took the mage path, but it's hard to introduce such a possibility of control over time for an enemy, without making that enemy the main threat, trumping all others. 

[nightscrawl]

Interesting. Though I do find it somewhat surpricing that Solas would be - at this point - concentrating on the breach, and not on the time magic. I get the picture that Bioware developed a bigger threat for the Redcliffe quest line than they intended; they might not have really worked out that a player going into that blind, would work out that "control over time" being gained by an enemy of the Inquisition would trump the breach as an immediate threat. It's written as if they expected the player to be meta-gaming it, rather than role playing it, and thus having the question "which side am I going to recruit for the closing of the breach" as the only consideration. 
 
When in fact, I found it difficult to even justify keeping that question as a secondary consideration, once my Inquisitor learned of Alexius' time magic. Don't get me wrong - it made for a good story, with the time travel, if you took the mage path, but it's hard to introduce such a possibility of control over time for an enemy, without making that enemy the main threat, trumping all others.

Oh, I felt the urgency in the mage choice from my very first spoiler-free play. The templars were just sort of there, whereas the mages seemed like they presented this immediate crisis. But at the same time, being familiar with Bioware games, and also the mage/templar dilemma from the previous games, I went into it knowing that I was going to have to make a choice at some point.

[Heimdall]

And Heimdall, the game itself proves you wrong on your tactical analysis. Alexius wins that confrontation after you are removed, so your forces plainly were not enough to defeat him. And saying that it might have gone differently had he not cast his spell is pointless - he *did* cast it, as you knew he could with what you had been told. You went up against a powerful opponent, known to posses a deadly weapon and he used it successfully on you. All of this was predicted by Cullen, and he was right. By sheer good fortune, the spell places you in a position from where you can reverse it, but there is no way you could have banked on any such glorious good fortune.
 
The plan failed in the most obvious way it was likely to fail - because attacking someone who can use Time Control magic when you have *no* defence against it is absurd.

The point would hold up if we could say why Alexius defeated them without the Inquisitor. If, as I suggested, it's because they couldn't counter Alexius opening rifts to unleash demons on them, then no your point doesn't hold.

You keep selling Templars as an answer to countering time magic, but throughout the series Templars have fallen to much less powerful known spellwork. As you keep saying, this magic is unknown and very powerful. Templars increase your odds, certainly, but it's far from a certainty. You have to weigh that against the benefits of staying and attacking now.
 

Saying that your opponent has a deadly weapon, so the smartest course of action is to go in blindly by yourself with just your forces, not recuit the organization who speclalize in disrupting magic, not seek assistance from the crown who would (and are!) sending soldiers of their own, Try to understand, that you have no special abilities or knowhow or training that make you right for this! Saying something must be done, is not the smae as being able to get it done. You have no defence against this Time magic, Leliana's people have no training or abilities to resist Blood Magic or combat magical familiars, demons etc and despite your claims, no way of knowing what and how many enemies you will face, nor who can be trusted. And so it proves - the evidence is right in front of you! Its what happens!

Who has training in dealing with time magic? Dorian, he's the only one besides Alexius that has any understanding of it. Your best asset against time magic is already with you. Getting Templars may increase your odds of success, but it's a big risk.

It isn't just that you're looking for help from an organization that scorns you, or what damage Alexius could do in the meantime. Alexius and his Venatori represent the first lead you've come across that might have something to do with whoever caused the Breach, not to mention his magic seems to be damaging time itself in the surrounding area. He isn't stuck in Redcliffe either, he can leave if he doesn't think you'll come. That's what happens if you go to the Templars in game. There are compelling reasons to apprehend him as quickly as possible, so as not to let your first and best lead get away.

I've already explained how Leliana could have gathered intelligence on their numbers, you haven't explained why these are impossible. You've made a lot of claims that they failed because they couldn't deal with magic, but we don't know why they failed and you overlook a key point. They succeeded in infiltrating the fortress and arriving in the throne room from the dungeon without drawing attention. Clearly all those mages and demon were far from insurmountable obstacles.
 

And leaving the Mages in the hands of the Venatori? You have done nothing of the sort - they did that themselves! Saying that you can probably trust most of them, because... well, 'let's hope we can!' is nonsense. As for Dorian, you just met him! He's helped you, but then inserted himself into your plans to come with you, under the guise of warning you against magical traps. And if he betrays you, as he very well could? What evidence do you have of any of what he claims? Cassandra and Mother Giselle still don't trust him in Act 2, so I highly doubt they encourage you to take his word at this point!

The accepted a bargain in desperation because they felt they had no alternative, and most of the mages you can talk to express misgivings or outright hostility to the deal. It was a dumb move, but leaving them in the hands of Alexius only strengthens an avowed enemy. There's no upshot in leaving them, to their fate.

They suspect his motives in helping the Inquisition, because he is a Tevinter Mage, an automatic figure of suspicion to any follower of the southern Chantry. They both admit this outright. Give me a good reason why revealing the existence of the Venatori and time magic are the actions of a traitor? That's right, your prime reason for confronting Alexius being a bad idea, Time Magic, we only know about because Dorian told us. He gives you nothing but reasons why Alexius is dangerous to you and anything he offers is a trap. Before that, you have no inkling that Alexius is wielding such an incredible weapon. So if you take time magic as a reason not to go, you must be trusting his information.

You are making assumptions and generalizations about the motivations of people your characters have either just met or have not met (in the case of most of the rebel mages). The Mage Rebellion is full of disparate elements, united only by their desire to be free of the Chantry - which many people comment that the Inquisition is seen to be a part of, no matter how inaccurate that actually is. You have no way of knowing how widespread the support for this merger is, and if even just a fraction of the mages support it genuinely, then you'd have even greater odds stacked against you. You are not equipped to handle even a small amount of dangerous mages, let alone lots and lots of them.

The mages we see are almost unanimously on the fence or unhappy with the arrangement. That means something. But it doesn't matter what the unseen body of the rebellion thinks, it matters what its leader thinks, and Fiona is clearly unhappy with having to take Alexius' deal. The other mages follow her, regardless of their disparate stances. They did it once, they will do it again. If she can be made to see the wisdom of siding with the Inquisition, the majority will follow.

If mages were such impossible opponents, nobody sent that memo to all those Apostates I've been slaughtering in the Hinterlands. Mages are far from unstoppable without Templars and Templars aren't perfect counters to mages. Mages aren't nearly as threatening as you make them out to be.
 

And again, you are falling into the trap of simply accepting the line that Bioware feeds you. That you can and should and must act, because something is going on and you are the Good Guys so its your job, right? Wrong. This is a matter for Ferelden and Tevinter to work out, for the Venatori (whose motivations you do not know at this point) and the Mage Rebellion, for Fiona and Alexius and the Ferelden monarchs to work out. The Inquisition is operating on a very questionable open ended mandate that it keeps altering to suit its needs. Its authority to act is by no means recognized by all or even very many people at this point, and certainly not on a matter that you have no evidence has any bearing on your mission to seal the breach.

As I explained, this actually falls squarely into the Inquisition's mandate. A strange Tevinter cult just happens to appear after the Breach just in time to snatch up the mages the Inquisition was planning to recruit? Using magic that affects rifts? That has an interest in you and your mark? This is the first lead of any kind that the Inquisition has had since the start of the game. You would be remiss to ignore it. I'll happily accept the line Bioware feeds me if it's well justified, and this one is well justified.
 

You might *want* the Mages, but if they are already commited to someone else, then that's that as far as most people would be concerned. You sticking your oar in and further complicating the situation will be seen as meddling for your own gain. Remember that it isn't until Haven that you learn there is a true threat lurking out there beyond the Breach. At this point, the venatori are just a name that it is suggested to you, has an interest in you. Until the connection at Haven is established, Alistair and Anora (or whoever) is perfectly justified in throwing you out and telling you this was none of your concern.

At the time, Redcliffe had been seized by a foreign cult, it's lawful ruler fled. Moving against it isn't a move against Ferelden or the monarchy, even if they want you to clear out when they arrive.

[Marshal Moriarty]

Why does my point about Alexius beating your forces not hold up? Is he not allowed to use his Time magic to defeat you? Is that cheating in your opinion?! Would you call the referee in?! You knew he had control over time magic, knew you had no way of stopping it and challenged him anyway. You can't just stamp your feet and say 'If it wasn't for that cheating time magic, we'd have won!' He used his best weapons against you, and you lost. As you were always going to, when you had no defence against it. Your argument makes no sense at all.

 

And don't you think its grasping at straws at straws to say the Templars probably couldn't help, because they have failed to control magic before? When they storm the Gallows in DA2, they absolutely whup the mages in that introductory cutscene. They are only thrown back at all because of Hawke and the gang (in the Mages supporting version anyway), and even then at such a dreadful toll in Mage lives, that it drives Orsino out of his wits. They are reknowned for their anti magic capabilities. Maybe they can't help you against this magic, but they are your best bet surely to goodness, and a damn sight better than having nothing! The Templars reputation for magic suppression and success against magic of all kinds is long established. I agree that Bioware haven't been very good at showing that, but that is on their storytelling - if the Templars were really that bad at suppressing magic, that is the view people in Thedas would have of them, and it isn't. The Templars have simply been a victim of Bioware favoring the mages (until this game) and generally casting them in an antagonistic light until now (which has been noticeable, because since DAI was released which shows them in a more positive light, the support for them on forums like this has vastly increased).

 

You say I've made claims about why they failed. I've told you, but you just don't want to listen. They lost because you were taken out of play by his Time Magic. The magic you claim Dorian is your best asset against. This is despite him admitting that the version he saw did not work. And having compelling reasons to apprehend him, does not give you the means to actually do so, without it being an absurd risk (which is Cullen's point - he wants to take Alexius down, but not if this is the only plan you have. Even though he muses it might work, he still insists (correctly) that it far too long a shot, and you should go for the Templars instead. Plunging in without either them or Ferelden forces (for the simple reason that you don't think they'll give you permission of all things!), is an incredibiy stupid move.

 

And how is this scouting of enemy numbers to work exactly? The windwill entrance is exposed to open air, seeing as how the mill has fallen apart. It stands alone on a hill with nothing else there. So these agents are going to go up there, sneak in, head into the castle, nose around a bit to determine numbers (given that the castle is large, and if they are found that's the end of that), and then come back? Then an even larger number of them is going to go up this ridge, hoping that nobody will notice that a consistent stream of people have been heading up there and not coming back, in sufficient numbers to tackle a castle's worth of enemies? And you're suprised that this failed?

 

I don't see what is so hard to grasp here. You are insisting that the plan *could* work, but it *didn't* work, did it? And you were warned repeatedly that it stood a high chance of failing, because of the difficulty in getting your people in there in sufficient numbers, and because you lacked the means to confront Alexius' magic. Instead you keep insisting that if they hadn't used their deadliest weapon (the one that forms the basis for why you are going there!), you might have won. What kind of absurd logic are you working under? This was not a sound plan at all, and you were told this by your military advisor. If you don't trust him on this (and he could not have been more forceful, outright telling you that he wouldn't allow it), then why are you even keeping him around? It was a supremely stupid plan, that saw you outnumbered, unsure of the loyalties of the parties involved, certain that you had no defence against the weapon the enemy were using, and heading into the place in 2 teams, who cannot co-ordinate (i.e if Alexius had attacked immediately upon your arrival, it wouldn't have mattered what your other team was doing - ditto if they were delayed somehow and had to retreat. You wouldn't know about it until it was too late). 

 

The Inqusiition's mandate was to stop the Mage/Templar war. The writ was issued before the Breach, before the venatori were known, before Corypheus was known. The Inquisition then uses that writ to expand its mandate to closing the breach (which is instantly contested by the Chantry, as that is NOT what the writ alows them to do at all). You have obtained no permission or recognition from Ferelden to act in this manner on their lands (which Alistair also points out later, but in light of Haven, he's willing to let that slide). But at this point, you have no such leeway. You have no proof that the venatori were involved in anything, and even if you did, you still wouldn't have the jurisdiction to do anything about it. And AGAIN, in case you didn't hear the first 20 times, you do not have the training or expertise to deal with this problem. You will make it worse by blundering in like this.

 

And make it worse you indeed do. Because if you ignore this and go after the Templars, the dark future is avoided. Why? Because you don't fall into the obvious trap that you knew was being laid for you. Boldly stepping forth and springing the trap is much less impressive when you do it by actually falling into the trap and having it work! You heading into Redcliffe, undermanned, with a lack of suffficient information and magical protection produced exactly the results you deserved! The Dark Future only happens because you take an unacceptable risk, because the world cannot, absolutely *cannot* afford for anything to happen to you. You are the *only* person in the whole world who can close the rifts. And this is precisely the point I was making a month or so ago in the 'I just don't get it' thread about why the basic premise for Inquisition is so flawed (because if you really were the only one who could close the rifts, they would never let you out of Haven/Skyhold without a full bodyguard of dozens and dozens of soldiers, to escort you to rifts, close them and then march quickly back to base).

 

Any risk you take personally in this game is magnified exponentially in magnitude, because if something does happen to you, then its game over for the world, as they will be left with no defence against the breach and the rifts. Cullen tries to tell you this over and over and over again, that it is too risky for you of all people to be doing this. And so it proves. Bumbling into Alexius; trap and getting yourself removed from play, is what triggers the Dark Future. Losing you to an obvious trap with unlikely odds of success is too much of a risk, to try to remove this threat. Even in you could be sure that these guys were the ones responsible for the Breach, you still shouldn't tackle them alone like this, in such an appallingly thrown together at the last minute kind of way. Cullen is right when he tells you that even if your instincts say you should get this guy, a wise man lives to fight another day. Alexius has the advantage in every way possible. Refusing to accept that is suicidal and stupid, and because of the necessity of your Mark, endangers countless more lives than just your own. You're gambling with the lives of everyone, on a plan that is unlikely to succeed, and which you don't need to do, because you have another option. The implications for your loss are too great - and that's exactly what happens, because you insist on charging in and just hoping this Time Magic isn't all its cracked up to be...

 

By sheer providence, you are taken to a time where escape is possible, but that is the luck of the Gods themselves, and is no basis for a plan. For example, if King Cailan at Ostagar had said 'Guys, guys, I've got a great plan. Instead of using the army... I'll charge out there with a pair of knuckledusters and I'll show the whole lot of them some Royal Ferelden Justice! How's that grab you?'Idiocy, right? But if he then ran out there and a freak meteor fell from the sky, wiping out the whole darkspawn horde and leaving him victorious, would that make it a good plan then? Since he eventually succeeded, even if it was because of being the luckiest man who ever lived? That is your Inquisitor in Redcliffe. You have a terrible plan, it goes exactly as it deserved to go (i.e awfully), and then by utter fool's luck, you manage to turn it all around when instead that magic could have sent you thousands of years into the past or future. You could have been seperaed from Dorian, Alexius and his spell could have been gone. Any number of billions of possibilities, yet you luckily get taken somewhere you can reverse it -Which you cannot possibly have predicted would happen.

 

If that's the kind of plan we're accepting as good ideas, then why not bank on the solo guy/Meteor theory to win all your battles? Its just as likely.

 

And I'm not saying you're acting against Ferelden. I'm saying removing Tevinters from a Ferelden castle isn't your job, nor is it your jurisdiction. So what if the Venatori are a foreign cult. You are not the police, you do not represent Ferelden and saying that you are 'saving' the mages, assumes they want to be saved. You have talked to what, 4-5 mages? And some of them support the merger. How many more do? You don't speak for them either. If they want to go through with this deal, its their business. If Ferelden want the Tevinters out of their town, that's their business. None of it is *your* business. Because even if you think they are interested in you, that is no legal basis to act.

 

Put it this way. Assume for one moment that cult or no, the Venatori are simply Tevinter supremacists, who have co-opted the Mages through a variety of coercion and bribes etc. They may even still be using Time magic etc etc. None of this is actually illegal. Let's say you get in there, find out that they are nasty bit of goods, but that they haven't actually done anything wrong (beyond seizing the castle, but again that isn't your business). You had no evidence either way at this point. If they didn't prove to later be allied with Corypheus (who you don't even know about yet), then your actions would simply be an outrageous invasion and interference in matters that did not concern you.

 

Which is how everyone views it at the completion of this quest, because that is exactly how it seems. You have sabotaged the deal for your own ends, and violated Ferelden land and jurisdiction to do so. Haven sets them straight, but that is information and confirmation that they cannot have known at this time. You of course also don't know any of this until you see the Dark Future, but if you tried to sell that to anyone, it'd be 'Ah yes.. 'Reapers' time again. You are buying into this idea that because you're the guys who get **** done, that everyone else should just bend over and let you get on with it. Well, that's not how things work!

 

All this insisting on this long shot plan is silly, especially as the plan is *shown* to fail! And yet you insist its a better bet than going after the Templars, because their leader told you No - once. Your country must be very relieved that you aren't one of their diplomats, Heimdall. If you take the first answer in a negotiation and say 'Oh well, we tried... let's go' then you won't get very far! Lucius can't simply say No without explaining himself when enough important people gather to force him. You don't have to take his first answer as his last! And as Cullen points out, Sod what he thinks anyway, after his antics in Val Royeaux. If he won't listen to reason, then others will. The Templars would completely destroy their credibility if when confronted by the nobility, they refused point blank to do their job. They would lose all their support, resources and once word got out, the support of the people as well. Something Barris and Cullen are sensible enough to point out.